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[Horse Armour]

SACRAMENTO — A 57-year-old convicted killer serving a life sentence in California is the first inmate in the United States to receive state-financed sex-reassignment surgery, the prisoner's lawyers said.

California prison officials agreed in August 2015 to pay for the surgery for the inmate, Shiloh Heavenly Quine, who was convicted of first-degree murder, kidnapping and robbery for ransom and has no possibility of parole.

Ms. Quine's case led the state to become the first to set standards that will allow other transgender inmates to apply to receive state-financed sex-reassignment surgery.

Ms. Quine's lawyers said on Friday that the sex-reassignment surgery had been performed at a hospital in San Francisco and that their client would be moved to a women's prison after being released from the hospital.

The daughter of Ms. Quine's victim said she objected to inmates getting taxpayer-financed surgery that is not readily available to noncriminals, regardless of the cost.

”My dad begged for his life," said Farida Baig, who tried unsuccessfully to block Ms. Quine's surgery through the courts. ”It just made me dizzy and sick. I'm helping pay for his surgery; I live in California. It's kind of like a slap in the face."

Ms. Quine and an accomplice kidnapped and fatally shot Shahid Ali Baig, 33, a father of three, in downtown Los Angeles in February 1980, stealing $80 and his car during a drug- and alcohol-fueled rampage.

California corrections officials had fought in court for years to avoid paying for sex-reassignment surgeries. In one high-profile case, the state paroled Michelle-Lael Norsworthy in 2015 one day before a federal appeals court was to hear her request for state-financed surgery.

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/07/us/california-is-first-to-pay-for-prisoners-sex-reassignment-surgery.html

Surprisingly progressive of one of a typically ruthless justice system.

Let's hope it's not long before all trans identifying convicts are put in a prison for the gender they identify with from the start rather than having to fight tooth and nail and mostly being denied like they are currently.

 

[border]

There has to be a better solution than having taxpayers foot the bill for a murderer's expensive surgery. Maybe it costs less than maintaining a separate facility for trans criminals though.

 

[rokkerkory]

Why would tax payers pay for this muderer?

 

[Ziltoidia 9]

It doesn't seem right to have this added to the cost of imprisoning someone. Tax payers pick it all up.

 

[Moral Panic]

Seems crazy that a poor law abiding citizen can't get this but a convicted murderer gets it for free.

 

[Wuthering_Heights]

Money well spent.

/s

 

[Back-In-Black]

Why would tax payers pay for this muderer?

The argument would be that's no different than any other type of medical care provided to prisoners, if a prisoner has cancer the tax-payer has to foot the bill for their treatment. If they have a mental illness the taxpayer pays for their pills and/or therapy.

That said, this seems like it's going too far.

 

[Monocle]

Withholding the surgery would have amounted to cruel and unusual punishment. Getting gender reassignment surgery isn't a trip to the spa or a spot of lipo to tune up your beach bod. It's treatment for a massively traumatic medical issue.

 

[StopMakingSense]

Maybe it costs less than maintaining a separate facility for trans criminals though.

Of course it does.

 

[Gaardus]

Why would tax payers pay for this muderer?

Why pay for any medical treatment? Hell, why pay for food? She didn't get this surgery for shits 'n' giggles.

 

[collige]

Good. Surprised it took this long tbh.

The argument would be that's no different than any other type of medical care provided to prisoners, if a prisoner has cancer the tax-payer has to foot the bill for their treatment. If they have a mental illness the taxpayer pays for their pills and/or therapy.

That said, this seems like it's going too far.

Why do you consider SRS to be less important than any other kind of medical surgery?

 

[Complistic]

Why pay for any medical treatment? Hell, why pay for food?

And we're off

 

[TheMan]

The argument would be that's no different than any other type of medical care provided to prisoners, if a prisoner has cancer the tax-payer has to foot the bill for their treatment. If they have a mental illness the taxpayer pays for their pills and/or therapy.

That said, this seems like it's going too far.

this was my gut reaction. However, I think it helps to keep in mind that gender reassignment surgery is not some elective cosmetic enhancement like breast implants. this is a real treatment for a real disorder. there is irony that a murderer gets this surgery for free while law abiding citizens don't, but then again the same applies for all medical treatment that prisoners get.

 

[Earthstrike]

The argument would be that's no different than any other type of medical care provided to prisoners, if a prisoner has cancer the tax-payer has to foot the bill for their treatment. If they have a mental illness the taxpayer pays for their pills and/or therapy.

That said, this seems like it's going too far.

I'm pretty sure the extent by which this seems like it's going to far would simply be a function of how many people know that transgenderism is a medical issue.

 

[Squirrel Killer]

The argument would be that's no different than any other type of medical care provided to prisoners, if a prisoner has cancer the tax-payer has to foot the bill for their treatment. If they have a mental illness the taxpayer pays for their pills and/or therapy.

Yes, but isn't SRS a non-life threatening, elective procedure? Put another way, what, besides her genitalia, was preventing her from being housed in a facility that matched her gender identity?

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Withholding the surgery would have amounted to cruel and unusual punishment. Getting gender reassignment surgery isn't a trip to the spa. It's treatment for a massively traumatic medical issue.

yeah this. would prefer if it were easier for non-prisoners to get the surgery too...

And we're off

i think that was making a point and not actually serious.

 

[Very Berry Sunday]

Money could've been spent on ...

Education for the many

NASA

Couldn't the prisoner pay for her own surgery?

 

[Astral/H3X]

And we're off

Pretty sure that was a tongue in cheek way to say that this is considered a necessity.



I think my opinion is similar to my opinion on the minimum wage argument (aka why should fast food employees make 15/hour and I only 20/etc), wherein the question is not "Why does this prisoner deserve the surgery", but rather "Why doesn't everyone else also deserve it".

 

[MCN]

And we're off

Pretty sure Gaardus was exercising the slippery slope fallacy to prove a point that it is in fact the taxpayer's duty to provide humane and ethical treatment to all people, even those who they don't like.

 

[ant_]

Withholding the surgery would have amounted to cruel and unusual punishment. Getting gender reassignment surgery isn't a trip to the spa or a spot of lipo to tune up your beach bod. It's treatment for a massively traumatic medical issue.

I'm out of my depth here and truly don't know the answer to the question: Is this true? Is sex reassignment surgery seen as a necessity? I was previously under the belief that it wasn't. Can anyone clarify and/or enlighten me?

 

[MCN]

Money could've been spent on ...

Education for the many

NASA

Or another pointless war!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

understandably for victims but it's really hard for people in general to grasp that imprisonment is not about revenge or getting even with someone.

 

[besada]

If you imprison someone, you're required to care for their mental and physical wellbeing. This is the principle that guides medical and mental health care for prisoners, and one of many things that denotes a civilized society. The alternatives are horrific.

This decision seems completely in line with that guiding principle in the same way patients receiving their meds and patients being treated for non life threatening injuries are.

 

[Abstrusity]

I'm out of my depth here and truly don't know the answer to the question: Is this true? Is sex reassignment surgery seen as a necessity? I was previously under the belief that it wasn't. Can anyone clarify and/or enlighten me?

It certainly feels like it should be a necessity, as someone who hasn't started HRT but can't look at myself in the mirror have been afraid to start even trying, because I can handle the existential depression that never goes away no matter how much I drink and smoke but I would much rather not be beaten or killed for being different.

It's different for every person, but most can agree that it causes problems that you would only be treating the symptoms of (unsuccessfully, on my end), rather than the cause.

 

[kai3345]

she should be allowed to get the surgurey if she can come up with the funds another way (friends or family) but the state should not be paying for this

 

[Abstrusity]

she should be allowed to get the surgurey if she can come up with the funds another way (friends or family) but the state should not be paying for this

If you believe a criminal should suffer, then that is your prerogative.

It is not the basis of a civilized society. This is why we didn't want torture.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Good. Hopefully this a step towards making it available to everyone regardless of income.

 

[metalslimer]

she should be allowed to get the surgurey if she can come up with the funds another way (friends or family) but the state should not be paying for this

Why?

 

[Syncytia]

Would be nice if we could all just recognize that health care is a human right and all people should have access to care they need.

 

[Stinkles]

Good. Surprised it took this long tbh.



Why do you consider SRS to be less important than any other kind of medical surgery?

I don't know the details of the individual but it's hardly controversial to state unambiguously that a life saving surgery would be more important.

The good: system gets to figure out scenarios and procedures for dealing with this generally for people who are not murderers or for people who's situation is medically or practically necessary (someone in the middle of procedures for example).

The bad: the recipient is a murderer and the taxpayer is on the hook for a non life threatening surgery.

 

[kai3345]

Why?

there's countless other trans people who didn't commit murder who would be more deserving of a state-sponsored transition

 

[7DollarHagane]

I will say it seems like something you lose the right to when you kill another person over some cash and their car.

You lose a lot of rights when you do something like that. I think this should be one of them.

 

[rokkerkory]

Why pay for any medical treatment? Hell, why pay for food? She didn't get this surgery for shits 'n' giggles.

Really ur comparing this to food? Lol

 

[Syncytia]

Alternative take: would it have been cheaper to skip all the legal BS and just do the surgery?

Spoiler

Not an expert, but I'm leaning towards yes.

 

[StopMakingSense]

I will say it seems like something you lose the right to when you kill another person over some cash and their car.

You lose a lot of rights when you do something like that. I think this should be one of them.

Do you have a table of what healthcare you would and would not be willing to provide prisoners?

 

[metalslimer]

there's countless other trans people who didn't commit murder who would be more deserving of a state-sponsored transition

Well that's a problem with the rest of the medical system. It's not like if they don't do this that money is going to some other Trans person.

 

[Super_Cobra]

Why is tax payers money going into this? There's people that goes into bankruptcy or die because they can't afford medical care and inmates get it for free?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Surgery is 20k... we are talking pennies on the fucking dollar... spare me y'alls tax payer concerns.

 

[Astral/H3X]

there's countless other trans people who didn't commit murder who would be more deserving of a state-sponsored transition

This is along the argument that people posed for raising minimum wage, ie; "I only make $10/hour in my skilled job, why should a fast food employee deserve to make $15?"

This is thinking about it backwards. Instead, the fast food worker should be making a living wage, and also the skilled worker should be making more on top of that.

In this case, the prison system was able to provide what it should provide. Regardless of whether the other systems have caught up and are doing what they should do, they have done the right thing. If anything, this helps speed things along, because it points out that we are woefully behind.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I will say it seems like something you lose the right to when you kill another person over some cash and their car.

You lose a lot of rights when you do something like that. I think this should be one of them.

look you're taking away someone's means to earn the costs for the surgery and it's more and more recognized as an essential treatment for mental health reasons, which in turn are more and seen as equal to physical health. Would you deny an inamte cancer treatment?

Whose fault would it be if the inmate commits suicide, his or her own?

 

[metalslimer]

Why is tax payers money going into this? There's people that goes into bankruptcy or die because they can't afford medical care and inmates get it for free?

What the fuck is wrong with some of you? You don't lose access to medical care because you are a prisoner. This kind of thinking is why our prison system is so fucked up.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Tough on crime gaf strikes again

 

[99Luffy]

What the fuck is wrong with some of you? You don't lose access to medical care because you are a prisoner. This kind of thinking is why our prison system is so fucked up.

No, you GAIN it.

 

[Super_Cobra]

What the fuck is wrong with some of you? You don't lose access to medical care because you are a prisoner.

I'm not arguing about prisoners getting health care. They all do and we foot the bill. (It's not cheap). This is an elective surgery. Why should the tax payer have to pay for the elective surgery of a murderer?

 

[Syncytia]

Why is tax payers money going into this? There's people that goes into bankruptcy or die because they can't afford medical care and inmates get it for free?

Or perhaps these two issues are not mutually exclusive? There are many problems with US healthcare, I don't think actually providing health care to prisoners is one of them.

 

[ant_]

It certainly feels like it should be a necessity, as someone who hasn't started HRT but can't look at myself in the mirror have been afraid to start even trying, because I can handle the existential depression that never goes away no matter how much I drink and smoke but I would much rather not be beaten or killed for being different.

It's different for every person, but most can agree that it causes problems that you would only be treating the symptoms of (unsuccessfully, on my end), rather than the cause.

Thank you. I took your post and did some more personal reading / investigation into the question. I think it's clear that this surgery is medically-necessary after doing so.

Aetna's requirements for it being deemed as medically-necessary is like applying to a job, but they list a variety of useful sources/studies for anyone else interested.

In summary, this is not just an elective surgery.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Couldn't the prisoner pay for her own surgery?

No, she can't. She's in jail. Kinda hard to get a job under those conditions.

 

[How About No]

1st response in me is "stop being so awesome California"

2nd is "fuck this subhuman murdering piece of garbage"

3rd is "but she still deserves to have medical treatment"

Would be nice if we could all just recognize that health care is a human right and all people should have access to care they need.

This tho

 

[Freeza Under The Shower]

You guys might want to take into account that it's presumably one murder, and it's been 36 years since then. In terms of 'has the debt been sufficiently paid to warrant providing a service' the answer would be 'yes'.

You are all very bloodthirsty, when in reality this crime should probably not be a life sentence to begin with. It wouldn't be in most places, actually.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm not arguing about prisoners getting health care. They all do and we foot the bill. (It's not cheap). This is an elective surgery. Why should the tax payer have to pay for the elective surgery of a murderer?

GRS is not an "elective" surgery for trans folk.