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[akascream]

With games like Morrowind, Kotor, and Fable, it's clear that western developers are utilizing new technologies to innovate and move not only MMO RPGs forward, but single player RPGs as well. I am simply not interested in menu based games with summons, cards, spiky hair styles, world maps, ethers, linear storylines/plot and characters predesigned by somebody ELSE's imagination.

Back in the day, these types of videogames were called RPG's because they resembled western pen/paper games and/or games based off them. But the videogame 'rpg' branched out from there and have become very niche games with player stats. They simply do not resemble a true role playing experience. Why has this genre been stuck in the mud for so long? Do people really want to be forced into extremely stylized, predetermined roles?

After watching some Fable gameplay videos and reading impressions over the last few months, it is clear to me that this is what a true RPG is. Can eastern developers compete with this kind of superior design? I hope so.

 

[Chopin Trusty Balls]

The mother nature will take care of it

 

[Gattsu25]

Can eastern RPG developers compete?
With games like Morrowind

 

[sprsk]

Okay, and? Not all eastern rpgs are Final fantasy you know. (see nippon ichi)

 

[RevenantKioku]

Yes, except innovation is not necessarily fun for the individual.
I haven't enjoyed Morrowind or KOTOR, and I doubt I will Fable.

I'm playing Xenosaga at the moment and loving it. The battle system along with the way you use your various Tech, Ether and Skill points is marvelous fun for me.

 

[LinesInTheSand]

Morrowind was a dreadful bore. KOTOR was merely a combination of the classic PC RPG with the more focused storyline/gameplay of an eastern RPG. There's nothing "innovative" about that.

 

[fennec fox]

Morrowind was a dreadful bore. KOTOR was merely a combination of the classic PC RPG with the more focused storyline/gameplay of an eastern RPG. There's nothing "innovative" about that.

Except it was the first time it had been done on consoles and opened the eyes of a lot of gamers who hadn't given Western RPGs much thought in their lives before, me included.

Morrowind is incredibly boring, though.

 

[akascream]

I know some people enjoy eastern RPGs, and of course that's fine. I just think they've been tricked into thinking they are playing a role playing game. Eastern developers as a whole don't seem to be making real RPGs.

 

[Culex]

Wow, western devs finally make one good RPG and all of the sudden, the Japanese can't compete?

Insanity I tell ya!

 

[Bregor]

Some people like eastern RPGs, some people like western RPGs.

I like good RPGs, and don't understand why people care whether they come from the east or west.

 

[Kiriku]

I know some people enjoy eastern RPGs, and of course that's fine. I just think they've been tricked into thinking they are playing a role playing game. Eastern developers as a whole don't seem to be making real RPGs.

I sense the resurrection of an old classic:

"What would you consider an RPG???"

 

[ge-man]

Some people like eastern RPGs, some people like western RPGs.

I like good RPGs, and don't understand why people care whether they come from the east or west.

Just like everything else here, opinions must become fact.

 

[Redbeard]

Do people really want to be forced into extremely stylized, predetermined roles?

Yes.

 

[dark10x]

I know some people enjoy eastern RPGs, and of course that's fine. I just think they've been tricked into thinking they are playing a role playing game. Eastern developers as a whole don't seem to be making real RPGs.

Well, if that's the case, perhaps those people simply don't like REAL RPGs then? Even if they have been tricked into thinking those games are "RPGs", opening their eyes to what you define as a real RPG doesn't necessarily mean they will suddenly start enjoying them...

They are simply too different.

 

[sprsk]

THE JAPANESE TRICKED ME!!!!

The problem with the whole thing is that games are outgrowing old genre labels. So now people are all in a tussle trying to decide what country owns the "rpg" genre. To them i say WHATEVA.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I know some people enjoy eastern RPGs, and of course that's fine. I just think they've been tricked into thinking they are playing a role playing game. Eastern developers as a whole don't seem to be making real RPGs.

A lot of Eastern RPG fans and myself will happily admit that they're not true RPGs, especially those of us who have come in contact with P&P RPGs. The eastern ones are derivatives yes, but I personally love 'em.
But come up with simple name for them, and maybe it will stick.

 

[Makura]

I've never seen the two as similar. I don't think they compete for the same audience either.

 

[Meier]

It's not like there's separate types of games within the same genre or anything.

 

[Redbeard]

But come up with simple name for them, and maybe it will stick.

Story games.

 

[Diomedeskun]

It's just the classic issue between PC and Console rpgs, only PC style RPGs are now available on a console and do feature more story than was once common.

Anyone who thinks that western RPGs have made an unprecedented leap in immersion and complexity should play Wizardry VII and Ultima VII. Ultima VII is about 13 years old and has yet to be approached in world interaction by any modern RPG. It also featured high quality 2d graphics (that look even better now with ExUlt).

I still prefer eastern RPGs in general because I prefer their ease of use and focus on character development (storywise, not regarding stats), even if many of the stories are cliche now. There are also games like Xenogears/saga, Vagrant Story, Valkyrie Profile, and Panzer Dragoon Saga that have unique and fascinating stories and/or gameplay.

 

[akascream]

It's not about countries, there are many in the east and west. Hell, its not even about east vs. west. Calling eastern "RPGs" RPGs is a misnomer for that genre of eastern developed games. The label is incorrect.. if it were fixed, perhaps we'd get real role playing experiences from the talent in that region.

 

[Gattsu25]

to take this topic a little less serious:

“Eastern RPGs” and “Western RPGs” are two completely different sub-genres...they don't try to play the same and are not designed the same.
Eastern RPGs aren't all menu based with summons, cards, spiky hair styles, world maps, ethers, linear storylines/plots, and characters predestined by somebody else's imagination. By the same token, western RPGs aren't all directionless sandbox games that drop you in an environment and say 'go', they don't all feature boring medieval landscapes, dragons, barbarians with bearskin loincloths, "I leveled up now it's time to put one point in charisma" level up systems, maps that resemble table-top games, open ended plots that either suck or have been told before in a myriad of cliché fantasy novels, etc.

Pen-and-paper games also aren’t my idea of the ideal RPG experience…so I’m actually glad that not all RPGs are digitized P&P games :b Your vision of the ‘true’ RPG experience is exactly that…your vision, It does not match mine and I’m sure it does not match the vision of others…which is exactly why there are different types of RPGs.

This thread, to me, is one of a series of threads by posters who were oblivious to PC RPGs until they got an Xbox. Look, these types of games aren’t new…with that in mind, the genre was not been stuck in a ditch…you just didn’t know there was another side to it.

What you consider superior design might be considered inferior to others (I personally enjoy both types of games…though some like Morrowind I cannot stand anymore due to a multitude of reasons)

 

[DopeyFish]

Static RPG
Dynamic RPG

stick damnit stick!

 

[ge-man]

I've never seen the two as similar. I don't think they compete for the same audience either.

Exactly. I think the Japanese style rpg is almost a genre in itself, a fusion of traditional role playing and adventure games.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Story games.

Haha, should have specified good.

Anyway, looking at sales in general, I think the question is, can Western devs compete?

But of course, you know it doesn't matter, because the people buying these eastern RPGs are idiots compared to you, so their purchases don't count.

 

[jarrod]

Static RPG
Dynamic RPG

stick damnit stick!

Static RPG? What, like Zelda?

*exits thread quickly*

 

[Tabris]

Yeah, I agree, eastern RPGs are vying away from the "role playing" aspect of the genre.

It's been happening ever since Final Fantasy VI. The first truly cinematic RPG game in my opinion. The next game to follow the course was Final Fantasy VII, which made it even more literal with the inclusion of CG.

Now some people prefer to "role play" their character, and some people like to experience a cinematic but interactive story.

...but even with this change of focus in the genre, eastern RPGs are still leading the "innovation" front for gameplay. Games like Valkyrie Profile and BOFV: Dragon Quarter are some very good examples of games that break the genre's mold.

While western RPGs are still VERY dependent on "DnD" like gameplay. Infact, I would have to say that western RPGs have changed the least from their ancestor counterparts.

 

[akascream]

Your vision of the ‘true’ RPG experience is exactly that…your vision

My definition kind of relies on the meaning of the words "Role Playing Game". You are correct.. it isn't exclusive to pen/paper.

Static RPG
Dynamic RPG

stick damnit stick!

I like those.

But of course, you know it doesn't matter, because the people buying these eastern RPGs are idiots compared to you, so their purchases don't count.

Well, eastern developers themselves have commented publicly on the decline of sales in that region. But I wasn't talking about competing in sales (my bad), but in design.

 

[sprsk]

Static RPG
Dynamic RPG

stick damnit stick!

MMmmmm

linear storyline based rpg and dynamic storyline based rpg

LSBRPB DSBRPG. Cause the battle system in kotor isnt really all that different than say a typical "msg" styled jrpg.. the only real difference the malleable storyline. And while games like Tales of symphonia have a storyline that is dependant on the path you take its quite a bit different than kotor. so i dunno what else to do.

Actually, how about

Linear narrative games
Dynamic narrative games
Non narrative games

This could be a basis for a gaming genre classification system

Something like devil may cry is a Linear narrative action game
something like TOS is a Dynamic narrative role playing game
something like zelda would be linear narrative adventure game

 

[Necroscope]

Morrowind was a dreadful bore. KOTOR was merely a combination of the classic PC RPG with the more focused storyline/gameplay of an eastern RPG. There's nothing "innovative" about that.

IAWTP, Morrowing is boring as hell and totally overrated. Why would ppl like buggy and boring game like this one?

 

[Gattsu25]

...but even with this change of focus in the genre, eastern RPGs are still leading the "innovation" front for gameplay. Games like Valkyrie Profile and [edited] are some very good examples of games that break the genre's mold.

While western RPGs are still VERY dependent on "DnD" like gameplay. Infact, I would have to say that western RPGs have changed the least from their ancestor counterparts.

couldn't agree more

 

[akascream]

the only real difference the malleable storyline

It may be linear.. but there are 2 vastly different roles you can play, so I still think it is a good example of a real RPG.

 

[=W=]

WHATEVA

 

[dark10x]

I really do think that most Japanese style RPGs are simply a combination of classic adventure games and traditional RPGs. They mix a bit of both and add their own touch...

 

[sprsk]

A quick note, since technically all games are rpgs we should call "rpgs" "drama games"

 

[RevenantKioku]

Well, eastern developers themselves have commented publicly on the decline of sales in that region. But I wasn't talking about competing in sales (my bad), but in design.

I of all people really hate bringing things down to just sales, but these are made by companies, and they look for money.

Competing in design is kind of asinine though. It really comes down to, do people enjoy the game.
You don't always need innovation for that.

 

[akascream]

Hehe, yeah.. if you broaden the expression too widely than even Mario64 is an RPG. But what is different about, say, FFVII (a game I enjoy) that makes it more of an RPG in that sense than Mario64?

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Morrowind < The walking in this game is waayy too slow, and the storyline is confusing! I started playing and didn't know what I was suppose to do or where I had to go! Although the music and graphics were phenomenal! I stopped playing after 1 hour or so

Kotor < I really enjoyed this game, my fav RPG so far

Fable < I saw the latest GS video too, I simply don't understand the hype!


Jade Empire looks cool


Japanese RPGs are good, I am really enjoying Dark Cloud 2 and Final Fantasy XII looks like it will move the series forward in a good direction. Dragon Quest VIII also looks good.

 

[Vieo]

Can eastern RPG developers compete? #1

Not unless they can get their hands on a D&D or Tolkien license!

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

[Prine]

you know, after KOTOR, most of the JRPGs seems so predictable now. Real boring.

I do believe the west are really pushing the genre, Fable will hopefully set a a new standard.

 

[Subitai]

Um, I don't think they really ever did in sales except for Square.

As far as quality, it depends on which camp you're in.

 

[sprsk]

All right heres my final "new game classification system"( NGCS ) semi graph thingie


Main categories

Non Narrative
Dynamic Narrative
Linear Narrative

Sub categories
Drama (used to be rpg)
Action
Adventure
Simulator
High concept
Music
Fighting

Sub sub categories
Fantasy
Reality

 

[SantaC]

FF, Tales series, Dragon Quest, xenosaga, suikoden, star ocean.

And the question was if eastern RPGs can compete

You can even throw in Baten Kaitos

 

[akascream]

Reality

I don't think this one should count. Can I really role play myself?

 

[Cloudy]

I dunno bout Fable but Morrowind and Kotor = ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......

 

[sprsk]

I don't think this one should count. Can I really role play myself?

Well reality is saved mostly for Sim games

 

[Gattsu25]

Simulation and Fantasy would be better, no?

 

[sonycowboy]

you know, after KOTOR, most of the JRPGs seems so predictable now. Real boring.

I do believe the west are really pushing the genre, Fable will hopefully set a a new standard.

Boy, the fanboys get one perceived advantage and they really want to ride it for all it's worth and make it seem like the end all be all.

Morrowind sucked, KOTOR was OK. Fable might be great. And you think that 3 games will overturn hundreds of great RPG's.

Those games can't hold the jockstraps of Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Suikoden, Tales, Breath of Fire, Dark Cloud, Wild Arms, Growlanser, Disgaea/La Pucelle/Phantom Brave, Xenogears, Chrono, Lunar, and so many others.

Take a step back and see the forest for the trees.

 

[RevenantKioku]

you know, after KOTOR, most of the JRPGs seems so predictable now. Real boring.

That's funny, because after playing Baldur's Gate, KOTOR was boring and predictable.

 

[Tabris]

Can anyone refute my post? I would like to debate about this, but so far I only got one agreement and no disagreements.