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[Gattsu25]

That's funny, because after playing Baldur's Gate, KOTOR was boring and predictable.

Hell Yeah, all people that enjoyed KOTOR really should try our Baldur's Gate 2 (PC) along with it's expansion pack. THE best western RPG ever?

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

 

[akascream]

I think the word 'story' ought to be in there somewhere. Not to imply that other games DON'T have story, but to imply that these games focus on them heavily. But at the same time, it is possible for an eastern, menu-driven game to have a poor story, but great game mechanics.

Stat playing game? SPG?

 

[sprsk]

Simulation and Fantasy would be better, no?

yeah i guess so,

I forgot to add Sports games (that in cludes "sports" and racing games) also puzzle games as well.

any other genres im forgetting?

Narrative is a story akascream.

 

[Prine]

i only played JRPGs until KOTOR. Playing through Tales (supposedly great) it just doesnt hold my attention anymore. And the rest of the line up seems rather dull.

Im looking foward to FF 12 however, but im tired of random battles and huge overworlds with linear plots.

 

[RevenantKioku]

Can anyone refute my post? I would like to debate about this, but so far I only got one agreement and no disagreements.

Well, you do realize once Fable revolutionizes RPGs so much, especially to those who can't be bothered to plop down the $200 to play the game, all other RPGs will cease to exist.
So why bother arguing?

 

[dark10x]

i only played JRPGs until KOTOR. Playing through Tales (supposedly great) i just doesnt hold my attention anymore. And the rest of the line up seems rather dull.

Im looking foward to FF 12 however, but im tired of random battles and overworlds.

Random battles are not terribly common anymore, though...

 

[Slo]

I hate the internet.

 

[akascream]

Can anyone refute my post? I would like to debate about this, but so far I only got one agreement and no disagreements.

While western RPGs are still VERY dependent on "DnD" like gameplay. Infact, I would have to say that western RPGs have changed the least from their ancestor counterparts.

I'd disagree. The only constant I see on the western front is that they remain RPGs. The systems in Fable (economic, reputation, npc) are very much a leap forward in design.

 

[Gattsu25]

Im looking foward to FF 12 however, but im tired of random battles and huge overworlds with linear plots.

FF12 is inspired by FF11 and other online RPGs, supposedly

No Random Battles
No Battle Screen
Semi-Real Time combat (like KOTOR, BG2, MMORPGs)
etc,

aka, I see western RPGs as games that are similar to DnD in one or more aspects. even KOTOR...I was very excited to hear Bioware making a Star Wars game...very dissapointed to boot it up and get drowned in "Once you character makes a fortitude save, your to-hit roll must be" stuff

 

[akascream]

No Random Battles
No Battle Screen
Semi-Real Time combat (like KOTOR, BG2, MMORPGs)
etc,

And predetermined roles.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I'd disagree. The only constant I see on the western front is that they remain RPGs. The systems in Fable (economic, reputation, npc) are very much a leap forward in design.

A leap forward in design in a game that took how long to develop? And we're not even sure it was worth it yet.

 

[RevenantKioku]

And predetermined roles.

So what? If it really bothers you, go play something else. There is plenty to play.
There is no drought of RPGs on either side.

 

[Prine]

FF12 is inspired by FF11 and other online RPGs, supposedly

No Random Battles
No Battle Screen
Semi-Real Time combat (like KOTOR, BG2, MMORPGs)
etc,

which is why im looking foward to it. Open ended would have been better with some character customisation. Its easier to relate to a chracter you, yourself created.

 

[LinesInTheSand]

Anyone who thinks that western RPGs have made an unprecedented leap in immersion and complexity should play Wizardry VII and Ultima VII. Ultima VII is about 13 years old and has yet to be approached in world interaction by any modern RPG. It also featured high quality 2d graphics (that look even better now with ExUlt)..

Exactly. Ultima VII is still IMHO the best PC RPG of all time. It's just insane the kind of detail and love that went into that game for it's time.

 

[Gattsu25]

And predetermined roles.

so? even Kotor offered you cleverly concealed pre-determined roles...my main reason for likeing it much less than BG2. Really, BG2 is the best RPG i've played that follows the 'western' design.

prine: It doesn't really matter for me. This isn't always true, but I find that games that offer you a lot of character customization don't adapt well to the changes in your character personality or traits. Again, this isn't always true as there are games that don't adapt well and offer no customization, and games that adapt well and offer a lot of customization.

 

[LinesInTheSand]

This thread's point is moot because BOF: DQ is the best RPG this gen by far, FACT.

 

[akascream]

A leap forward in design in a game that took how long to develop? And we're not even sure it was worth it yet.

I judge a game based on its merits.. not how long it took to develop. This isn't a race.

So what? If it really bothers you, go play something else. There is plenty to play.
There is no drought of RPGs on either side.

Don't get so defensive. I'm not trying to invalidate the eastern RPG genre, just point out that it really is a different genre than a real RPG.

which is why im looking foward to it. Open ended would have been better with some character customisation. Its easier to relate to a chracter you, yourself created.

Indeed, and combined with an interactive, non-linear world, this is the entire point. I also like how they've reflected your class/stats in your appearance. I hope they hide numbers from you.. it would drastically increase replayability (which it already looks to have).

 

[RevenantKioku]

This thread's point is moot because BOF: DQ is the best RPG this gen by far, FACT.

Incorrect!
Lord, I love RPGs. Just not BoFQ and Dark Cloud. And most PC RPGs.

 

[radios shipping overview]

...but even with this change of focus in the genre, eastern RPGs are still leading the "innovation" front for gameplay.

laff. "Innovation" in most eastern RPGs consists of taking the same well-defined game model and throwing a new abstraction or five on top of it. BOFQ is a great game, but it's not terribly innovative; it's just a rogue-style game with an SRPG-style battle system and lotsa difficulty. I'll agree with you on VP (and I'll add Unlimited SaGa to that, hated or not), but games like that are hardly the norm. I don't think innovation is really what most developers of Japanese RPGs shoot for, really.

The same could be said of western RPG developers, but more often than not they seem to striving for refinement rather than innovation: more player freedom, more viable paths through a game, more well-defined unique experiences possible, better writing, better interfaces. The difference is that they're fleshing out the genre and using technology to allow the games to provide a fuller environment for the player, a richer world to explore, while JRPG developers stick to gameplay conventions that were adopted at least in part due to technical limitations and add a fresh coat of paint each time.

Anyway, this is mostly a moot point, as each genre has its own audience and neither is in much danger of losing fans to the other camp. Witness KOTOR's and Morrowind's respective receptions by FF fans for an example.

 

[LinesInTheSand]

Incorrect!
Lord, I love RPGs. Just not BoFQ and Dark Cloud. And most PC RPGs.

Well then I guess you just aren't a fan of gameplay

 

[Doom_Bringer]

Well then I guess you just aren't a fan of gameplay

yeah, and xenosaga sucks

 

[Blackace]

Random battles are not terribly common anymore, though...

Wow? So most of the RPGs I have played in the last 2 years have been uncommon?? Shock!

 

[RevenantKioku]

Well then I guess you just aren't a fan of gameplay

Oh yes, terribly hate it.

Really, is that all you've got?

 

[seismologist]

You know, Role playing doesn't mean you run around and do whatever you want to.
I dont know where people get this idea.

 

[teiresias]

I pretty much agree with Tabris' assessment. I don't think the genre splits down geographical lines (Japanese and Western) as neatly as some would like to think (mainly Xbots), but rather design philosophies. And which one you like depends on how you like to play and probably what mood you're in. For instance, I'm really enjoying Baldur's Gate 1 now, even though I hated it the first time I played, and I can't wait to finish and move on to BG2.

If you want to make your own character with original stats, etc. you're obviously not going to get that playing Final Fantasy (aside from the customization allowed by the armor, and whatever "crystal" system they implement) - but you'll get that customizable character in the DnD-like RPG at the expense of an intricate, interesting, and high character-interactive plot that is possible with pre-determined characters. I mean, the BG1 story is interesting, but it certainly doesn't have the same depth or character interaction as most post-FF1 games.

Baldur's Gate actually seems more like an old PC adventure game to me with the DnD battle rules used for combat. You just walk around exploring areas and talking to people doing quests and finding items like in an adventure game, but you have the DnD rules to look over combat and how people respond to your reputation (which seems to mainly be restricted to prices of items).

I enjoy both styles, it just depends on what I feel like. If I want a plot that I follow almost like a soap-opera (I was GLUED to FFIV when it was first released in the US on SNES) get a FF. If you want something more free-form get something more DnD-like in its implementation.

 

[akascream]

laff. "Innovation"

Hehe, well I'm not trying to mince words here. If the word refine makes more sense to you, fine. And while Fable is refining the RPG genre, it is innovating to do it.

Main Entry: in·no·vate
Pronunciation: 'i-n&-"vAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -vat·ed; -vat·ing
Etymology: Latin innovatus, past participle of innovare, from in- + novus new -- more at NEW
transitive senses
1 : to introduce as or as if new
2 archaic : to effect a change in <the dictates of my father were... not to be altered, innovated, or even discussed -- Sir Walter Scott>

I realize these terms get tired.. you will have to excuse my limited vocabulary.

 

[DopeyFish]

nearly all rpgs are based on DnD, eastern being more loose, western being more tight.

 

[akascream]

If you want to make your own character with original stats, etc. you're obviously not going to get that playing Final Fantasy (aside from the customization allowed by the armor, and whatever "crystal" system they implement) -

Well, in FF1 you did have character creation, and it is arguably the best game in the series . But that aside.. when you take away the ability for the player to create and/or mold his character.. to play different roles based on character creation or gameplay, you really don't have much of a RPG. What makes FFVII different than Mario64 in terms of Role Play?

but you'll get that customizable character in the DnD-like RPG at the expense of an intricate, interesting, and high character-interactive plot that is possible with pre-determined characters

Look at KOTOR.. it was very linear, with a great story (IMO) and still managed to provide a couple (yeah, a bit limited) roles for the player.

 

[Redbeard]

I'd like to see RPGs get away from the HP/MP/level-up paradigm.

In the beginning Fable was supposed to be like that, but it succumbed to convention. :/

 

[SantaC]

Music is atleast superior in eastern rpgs.

 

[teiresias]

Well, in FF1 you did have character creation, and it is arguably the best game in the series

Very arguable. In any case, aside from picking how many of each "job" you wanted in your party and their names there wasn't much to FF1's customization.

I just feel this entire argument always boils down to someone wanting to rag on Final Fantasy and they feel that getting someone to say it's not an RPG is a way of insulting the series as if that moniker is some holy grail that defines whether a game that's not a FPS is a success or not. Even if you want to call it an interactive movie it doesn't make the games themselves any less enjoyable, and the sales figures prove it.

 

[seismologist]

I prefer Western formula for RPGs. I guess I'm one of the few that loves Morrowind. The only problem is that they lack polish and design of Eastern counterparts (even KOTOR).

That's one big turnoff for me.

The best RPGs for me are Japanese with Western influence. Like FFXI.

 

[akascream]

I just feel this entire argument always boils down to someone wanting to rag on Final Fantasy and they feel that getting someone to say it's not an RPG is a way of insulting the series as if that moniker is some holy grail that defines whether a game that's not a FPS is a success or not. Even if you want to call it an interactive movie it doesn't make the games themselves any less enjoyable, and the sales figures prove it.

Naw, its just a misnomer that needs to be cleared up. Hell, might make eastern developers think twice about adding some RPG elements to thier games. Not that a renaming of eastern RPG's would ever really happen.

 

[teiresias]

I wouldn't play Final Fantasy if it turned into a clone of Baldur's Gate or Morrowind. The linear story is part of the series.

 

[akascream]

KOTOR and Fable even do role play better than games where you can choose race, class, ect with thier moral mechanics (though Fable has both). Implementing Good vs Evil is so brilliant. I could not bring myself to play a dark jedi in KOTOR, even when they were much more powerful. Hell, I had a hard time using the neutral abilities. It made me feel good when I played the game.

 

[LinesInTheSand]

Oh yes, terribly hate it.

Really, is that all you've got?

I wasn't attacking you, it just seems that way. Nothing wrong with it, some people prefer the more story driven style, I personally am a fan of both.

 

[seismologist]

FFI is actually a good example of how JRPGs have been streamlined over time. They've essentially cut out the stuff that "doesn't matter" and focused on the most important gameplay elements like story and combat.

So you dont have as much freedom but the gameplay is a lot more refined.

 

[6.8]

I'm not partial to one style over the other, personally speaking. I enjoy both, it's just a matter of what I feel like playing.

However, I am partial to games that try and successfully attempt to blend both styles of games. On the eastern side, Chrono Trigger, while remaining in its traditional JRPG roots, still took a clue from western RPGs by letting the player decide on many important aspect of the game, giving it more replayability, and giving the player a feeling of control over a certain amount of the content. That control over the content aspect is what makes Western RPGs strong, and it was nice to see it in a Eastern RPG.

On the other hand, you have KOTOR, whose gameplay is extremely rooted in Western RPGs' idiom, but still delves into the other's territory. You have control over the content of the game, but it's limited to good neutral, and evil (most of the time). Emphasis is very strong on set secondary characters, even though your main character remains voiceless and customizable.

Both are commendable efforts, in my opinion, and those 'hybrids' are some that I've always remembered the most, due to the fact that they don't try to ignore the opposite RPG paradigm, but rather, let themselves get influence by it, most often than not for the better.

gameplay elements like story

Were you being serious?

 

[akascream]

FFI is actually a good example of how JRPGs have been streamlined over time. They've essentially cut out the stuff that "doesn't matter" and focused on the most important gameplay elements like story and combat.

So you dont have as much freedom but the gameplay is a lot more refined.

You could argue that, though I'd add they lack much depth compared to western mechanics. I think most people can agree that eastern games are far more polished. But in the process they dropped the Role Playing element.. don't you think its silly to call these games RPGs?

 

[Blackace]

I prefer Western formula for RPGs. I guess I'm one of the few that loves Morrowind. The only problem is that they lack polish and design of Eastern counterparts (even KOTOR).

That's one big turnoff for me.

The best RPGs for me are Japanese with Western influence. Like FFXI.

I agree!!! Too many bugs and lack of polish to say that Japanese RPGs can
t compete. Hardly (Star Ocean 3 aside) do you see Japanese RPGs released with huge bugs in them... I do love both... but lately I have been a big fan of the free roaming RPGs... I feel much more in contact with a character that I created...rather than someone, doing something I never would do...

 

[Gattsu25]

aka, it's very easy to play a dark jedi in Kotor because they are so unrealistic.

Monk needs $50 to feed kids, gives me object to sell for him
I sell object
I kill him

That's just about it...you can either be a nun who does little BUT HAND OUT MONEY BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY TO BE ON THE LIGHT SIDE IS TO GIVE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE CREDITS or your a introvert that ignores everyone or YOU KILL EVERYONE AND MAKE SILLY JOKES WHEN PEOPLE TELL YOU SAD STORIES and that's about it...BG2 is much better...offering dozens of charater types

 

[Blackace]

I wouldn't play Final Fantasy if it turned into a clone of Baldur's Gate or Morrowind. The linear story is part of the series.

So you won't be playing FFXII?

 

[dark10x]

Music is atleast superior in eastern rpgs.

...and they offer more polish, which is something I appreciate. Most Western RPGs either look poor or run poor and have all kinds of technical problems. That kind of thing can really hurt a game experience for me...

 

[LinesInTheSand]

FF1 the best Final Fantasy? What kind of shit are you smoking?

 

[Blackace]

aka, it's very easy to play a dark jedi in Kotor because they are so unrealistic.

Monk needs $50 to feed kids, gives me object to sell for him
I sell object
I kill him

That's just about it...you can either be a nun who does little BUT HAND OUT MONEY BECAUSE THE ONLY WAY TO BE ON THE LIGHT SIDE IS TO GIVE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE CREDITS or your a introvert that ignores everyone or YOU KILL EVERYONE AND MAKE SILLY JOKES WHEN PEOPLE TELL YOU SAD STORIES and that's about it...BG2 is much better...offering dozens of charater types

Too bad it wasn't that simple... you make it sound like it was programmed in Qbasic or something...

 

[Blackace]

FF1 the best Final Fantasy? What kind of shit are you smoking?

playing it now on the GBA... and it isn't far from the truth... put that in your pipe and smoke it

 

[akascream]

and that's about it...BG2 is much better...offering dozens of charater types

Well, moral based role play just really appeals to me. Fable has both class and moral implications, which is one of the big reasons I am looking forward to it.

 

[dark10x]

playing it now on the GBA... and it isn't far from the truth... put that in your pipe and smoke it

Damn, you seriously like it?

To tell you the truth, I've never enjoyed any of those older Japanese RPGs...so I guess I shouldn't be suprised. I think the old NES FF games are quite boring and simple...

 

[6.8]

...and they offer more polish, which is something I appreciate. Most Western RPGs either look poor or run poor and have all kinds of technical problems. That kind of thing can really hurt a game experience for me...

I think some of us are willing to let go of some polish, for lack of extreme linearity and gameplay creativity, regardless of if you play a JRPG or a western RPG (or any games at all, in fact).