Support NeoGAF

[Blackace]

Damn, you seriously like it?

To tell you the truth, I've never enjoyed any of those older Japanese RPGs...so I guess I shouldn't be suprised. I think the old NES FF games are quite boring and simple...

What's not to like about it? if you liked Ultima III then FFI is about the same.,.. updated graphics make it evem better (16 bit now!! ) Enough roaming to make me happy...create my party at the start... decide their weapons and armor... spells... follow quest.... nice stuff for 1987...

 

[dark10x]

I think some of us are willing to let go of some polish, for lack of extreme linearity and gameplay creativity, regardless of if you play a JRPG or a western RPG (or any games at all, in fact).

Polish != linearity

There are plenty of somewhat non-linear JRPGs that are polished as all hell. However, in most cases, I'd give up a bit of freedom for some polish...though I enjoy the occasional non-linear romp if they can provide ENOUGH freedom. For example, I enjoyed Morrowind despite its problems whereas I found KOTOR to be a f*cking mess that required a lot of polishing. KOTOR was a good game, but it was seriously damaged by technical and presentation flaws...

 

[6.8]

I never stated that polish lead to linearity, but most linear RPGs are very polished, while the unlinear... well.. aren't.

 

[Gantz]

Japanese developers will never make an rpg as interactive and deep as Ultima 7 and Fallout.

 

[dark10x]

I never stated that polish lead to linearity, but most linear RPGs are very polished, while the unlinear... well.. aren't.

As noted above, if a game can reach a certain level of freedom...I am willing to forgive the lack of polish. Morrowind feels like a large, constant world with the ability to basically go anywhere in the world that you please. KOTOR fails to meet the level of freedom required for me to overlook those issues, however. Each area is small and very limited...yet the game has a shit framerate, akward animation, and all kinds of other technical issues.

That's pretty much how I feel overall. If a game is open enough, I can forgive many faults...but the tighter your design becomes, the more critical I become of those issues.

 

[Shouta]

The real problem with this whole East/West RPG argument is that a lot of people seem to percieve the words "Role-play" to mean only one thing. In this case, it's the definition used by the west. Sandbox games with the ability to create your character in any which way you like. While this isn't exactly the definition in the east, it seems to be that Eastern RPGs use the terms "Role-Playing" to mean playing through the eyes of a character. You play and see from that character's viewpoint rather than creating your own. Both are valid definitions. Acting in a play can be called "Role-play" but I don't see a giant sandbox for them to play in =b.

Each side of the RPG line has issues. With "Eastern" RPGs, problems such as interactivity and user options are a bit prominent. "Western" RPGs suffer from things like tired game mechanics/style and tired asthetic/world/setting design. While "Western" developers are doing more to address some of the problems in their design, it doesn't automatically make their "Eastern" counterparts any worse. To be honest, "Eastern" RPGs still have been doing more on the whole for their own design lately than "Western" ones have. The sort of instant customization found in Wild Arms 3 is still unmatched by any RPG I've played, East or West.

 

[Tabris]

I love how some of you are basing your opinion of western RPGs on a single game or two (KOTOR) or games that haven't even been released yet (Fable).

One of those games is very based on the DnD gameplay model most western RPGs thrive on. The other, well, hasn't even been released.

Than you're taking these 2 games, and comparing it to a single series (Final Fantasy) and determining it's better than an entire genre of games based on that single series.

Then you're labeling the entire genre as no longer being innovative. (based on that single series) When the game you're using as a reference, is a copy of an older PC game which uses a gameplay engine that stems back to the beginning of most PC RPGs.

 

[6.8]

As noted above, if a game can reach a certain level of freedom...

Yeah, but you hadn't edited yet, when I posted.

I am willing to forgive the lack of polish. Morrowind feels like a large, constant world with the ability to basically go anywhere in the world that you please. KOTOR fails to meet the level of freedom required for me to overlook those issues, however. Each area is small and very limited...yet the game has a shit framerate, akward animation, and all kinds of other technical issues.

Agreed, those were the game's biggest flaws, but I didn't realize that this was a KOTOR vs JRPGs thread. I enjoyed the game alot, but it did have problems. However, I did not expect a seemless, 'completely free' when the developpers said they were going after the same audience as Final Fantasy games.

Morrowind, on the other hand, I had to quit. It was personally too overwhelming for me.

I love how some of you are basing your opinion of western RPGs on a single game or two (KOTOR) or games that haven't even been released yet (Fable).

I'd bring out the fallout games if I knew more about them. But they had nothing to do with DnD and are regarded as great RPGs. And you are doing a tremendous job at ignoring everyone that mentionned Ultima 7.

 

[Raise Havok]

I don't think there is any competition. For the most part, they have two seperate markets. I love games like Final Fantasy, but find games like Morrowind incredibly dull. That said, I grew up playing console RPGs.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I'd like to see RPGs get away from the HP/MP/level-up paradigm.

In the beginning Fable was supposed to be like that, but it succumbed to convention. :/

I'd like to see you playing something else!
They're already tampering with my turned based battles, don't take away my numbers too!

 

[akascream]

it seems to be that Eastern RPGs use the terms "Role-Playing" to mean playing through the eyes of a character. You play and see from that character's viewpoint rather than creating your own. Both are valid definitions.

Then what makes FFVII more of a role playing game than Mario64?



Man.. I've been thinking. It would be awesome if somebody could implement moral based role play in an MMORPG. Keep races, classes, skills, magic ect. But add more character diversity, even among characters of the same race and class, by FINALLY adding alignment (so that it actually makes a difference) to MMORPGs.

 

[LinesInTheSand]

BTW, the BEST 3d PC RPG is Gothic 2 by a mile. How dare you mention Morrowind over it!

 

[Tabris]

I'd bring out the fallout games if I knew more about them. But they had nothing to do with DnD and are regarded as great RPGs. And you are doing a tremendous job at ignoring everyone that mentionned Ultima 7.

Do we really want to do a list war. "Innovative" games are bountiful in the eastern RPG market, the difference is none of them start with Final and end with Fantasy. Thus, you probabaly wouldn't have expeirenced it.

So you can say "I prefer games where I actually "roleplay the character". Not one's where I view the character's viewpoint."

...but when you start talking about gameplay mechanics and innovation, that is where the line is drawn. Final Fantasy isn't the end all and be all of the eastern RPG genre.

 

[Shouta]

Then what makes FFVII more of a role playing game than Mario64?

A story with specific linear progression and a more complex role than "OMG, COLLECT ALL THE STARS AND BEAT BOWSER TO SAVE THE PRINCESS?"

 

[bloke]

I think as long as best selling RPG franchise is eastern made, question should be 'Can western RPG developers compete?' and not otherwise.

 

[dark10x]

BTW, the BEST 3d PC RPG is Gothic 2 by a mile. How dare you mention Morrowind over it!

I was very interested in the game, but I never could get into what little I had played...

 

[Korranator]

BTW, the BEST 3d PC RPG is Gothic 2 by a mile. How dare you mention Morrowind over it!

Exactly, and Fable for all it's hype, seems to be just a natural evolution from the standards already set by Gothic 1 & 2.

 

[6.8]

Do we really want to do a list war. "Innovative" games are bountiful in the eastern RPG market, the difference is none of them start with Final and end with Fantasy. Thus, you probabaly wouldn't have expeirenced it.

What tells you that I dislike eastern RPGs or don't play any and generalize things? I stated that I'm not partial to one style over another. You seem just as hasty on generalization as those people that "haven't experienced" anything other than FF.

 

[RevenantKioku]

I wasn't attacking you, it just seems that way. Nothing wrong with it, some people prefer the more story driven style, I personally am a fan of both.

The main problem with the statement, is that it plays up an assumption that games like FF and Xenosaga (which I just completed about 20 minutes ago) lack game play just because they have heavy story elements.
I'm just tired of being invalidated by people because I think Dragon Quarter is a steaming pile.

 

[Razoric]

Yes, except innovation is not necessarily fun for the individual.
I haven't enjoyed Morrowind or KOTOR, and I doubt I will Fable.

I'm playing Xenosaga at the moment and loving it. The battle system along with the way you use your various Tech, Ether and Skill points is marvelous fun for me.

haha! We are talking about RPGs not psuedo child porn movies.

 

[dark10x]

I'm just tired of being invalidated by people because I think Dragon Quarter is a steaming pile.

...but DQ actually had a story as well. It was certainly prevalent throughout the game and was actually fairly interesting to boot!

 

[Shouta]

East/West RPGs are still ultimately the same damned thing, a story with an end goal. The difference is that "Western" RPGs let you zig-zag a little to get to the end point as opposed to going in a straight line.

 

[radios shipping overview]

Then you're labeling the entire genre as no longer being innovative. (based on that single series) When the game you're using as a reference, is a copy of an older PC game which uses a gameplay engine that stems back to the beginning of most PC RPGs.

This applies to not just FF, but also Wild Arms, Breath of Fire, Dragon Warrior (cheap shot!), Skies of Arcadia, Lunar, Shin Megami Tensei, the Mysterious Dungeon series (with relation to roguelikes, not Ultima III), Xenosaga, Suikoden, plus a good deal many others. Some JRPGs have made the random encounters realtime or have made the encounters not random at all, but the idea of an encounter playing out in a different engine from the one in which you explore is a throwback to games that were built that way because of technical limitations.

Beyond encounters, though, the standard JRPG model of game design stems from those limitations, whether or not it's a viable genre today. JRPG designers have certainly become very good at refining what they do (new visuals, better interfaces, more elaborate cinematics, and a new set of 'systems' every time), but any new ground they forge (for the most part) is in those areas, not in the core essence of the genre. It's great for fans, but they're not going to change the mind of anybody who's burnt out on the genre.

 

[6.8]

East/West RPGs are still ultimately the same damned thing, a story with an end goal. The difference is that "Western" RPGs let you zig-zag a little to get to the end point as opposed to going in a straight line.

You forgot to mention the art direction style. Which leads us to the "what is bad art?" debate.

 

[Redbeard]

I'd like to see you playing something else!
They're already tampering with my turned based battles, don't take away my numbers too!

You can still have your numbers, just mabye presented in different ways. So instead of hit points and magic points you'd have stats that track things like pain, fatigue, and illness. Instead of your character's progression being arbitrarily measured in levels your attributes like strength and agility would just gradually increase.

 

[jarrod]

Um, I don't think they really ever did in sales except for Square.

Pokemon.

 

[RevenantKioku]

...but DQ actually had a story as well. It was certainly prevalent throughout the game and was actually fairly interesting to boot!

It was still a steaming pile.

haha! We are talking about RPGs not psuedo child porn movies.

HAHA! Raping children.

You can still have your numbers, just mabye presented in different ways. So instead of hit points and magic points you'd have stats that track things like pain, fatigue, and illness. Instead of your character's progression being arbitrarily measured in levels your attributes like strength and agility would just gradually increase.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a game that tried this, but I think the convention is simple and effective enough that we don't need such an overhaul.

 

[EviLore]

Tabris is vying for lordship of the Isle of Arrogant Ignorance.

 

[MetatronM]

you know, after KOTOR, most of the JRPGs seems so predictable now. Real boring.

KOTOR wasn't predictable as hell? I mean, come on, you could see the "shocking twist" from MILES and MILES away.

Still one of the better RPGs I've played in a good long while, though.

 

[Shouta]

Beyond encounters, though, the standard JRPG model of game design stems from those limitations, whether or not it's a viable genre today. JRPG designers have certainly become very good at refining what they do (new visuals, better interfaces, more elaborate cinematics, and a new set of 'systems' every time), but any new ground they forge (for the most part) is in those areas, not in the core essence of the genre. It's great for fans, but they're not going to change the mind of anybody who's burnt out on the genre.

You could say the same thing about "Western" RPGs. where are all the games that strive to truly play differently from each other? Where's the Tales of Symphonia? Where's the Dragon Quarter? Where's the Star Ocean of Western RPGs?" Sticking to and refining core design elements isn't unique to 'Eastern" RPGs.

You forgot to mention the art direction style. Which leads us to the "what is bad art?" debate.

;p

 

[IJoel]

I just feel like doing this:

Baldur's Gate + Expansion
Baldur's Gate 2 + Expansion
Diablo
Diablo 2
Planescape: Torment
Fallout
Fallout 2
The Elder Scrolls 1: Arena
The Elder Scrolls 2: Daggerfall
The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind + Expansions
Neverwinter Nights + Expansions
Icewind Dale Series
Anachronox
Gothic
Gothic 2
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Deus Ex

Kickass estern RPGs didn't start with KotOR.

 

[Tabris]

Except what you're talking about would put the game into a different genre.

You take away all the aspects that make an eastern RPG, than it's no longer an eastern RPG. It gets defined into genre's like "action RPG" or "strategy RPG" or the other sub-sets for games that deviate from this base foundation that eastern RPGs are founded on.

So I think what you're looking for is a different genre. You don't enjoy that genre anymore. That's alright, it doesn't make the genre bad, just that it no longer suits your tastes.

Shush you EvilLore, you know you love my amazing posts and great taste in like everything

 

[teiresias]

Instead of your character's progression being arbitrarily measured in levels your attributes like strength and agility would just gradually increase.

That's still basically having your character "gain a level" if your strength and agility, etc. were to increase at the same time. However, if you break it up where you have to exercise each one independently in order to increase it you end up with FFII - aka. annoying as hell.

 

[IJoel]

BTW, I do like many Japanese RPGs, but I agree that they've become stagnant using the same formula over and over again, while Western developers seem to be doing all the innovation.

It's not such a bad thing when they keep releasing good games, but at some point the comparison becomes too obvious to ignore. I can compare this to what Ninja Gaiden did to me with respect to action games. After playing Ninja Gaiden, I feel most other action games of the same type are too just too slow and at times tedious.

 

[teiresias]

I don't think Diablo (at least the first one, never played the second one) belongs in any list claiming to be of RPGs.

 

[IJoel]

I don't think Diablo (at least the first one, never played the second one) belongs in any list claiming to be of RPGs.

In all Diablo games you control the character class, stats and abilities.

The whole deal with people preferring to call these games 'Action RPGs' is simply a ridiculous way to try and separate the 'turn-based' mechanics in its own 'eleet' group.

Whether it's real time or turn based, that does not determine whether a game is role playing or not. If you control the character progression and development, then that makes the game an rpg.

 

[Tabris]

BTW, I do like many Japanese RPGs, but I agree that they've become stagnant using the same formula over and over again, while Western developers seem to be doing all the innovation.

Explain to me the innovation the recent western RPGs do to break the western RPG genre mold. What's so different about a game like KOTOR compared to previous western RPGs?

Then compare that to something like Dragon Quarter, and what it does different from it's respective genre.

Then tell me which genre is innovating more.

 

[MoxManiac]

What a stupid thread.

Hey guess what, like other genres, the RPG genre has several different styles and approaches. Doesn't make any of the paticular styles more an RPG than the others.

 

[teiresias]

You're controlling stats, there is hardly any character interaction, no need to make decisions in terms of interactions with the world. You're just killing things to gain gold to buy new equipment, gain levels, and in turn increase your numbers. It's basically people sitting around playing P&P DnD without a GM and without a story, they're just rolling the dice and seeing how high they can get their numbers. My qualms with the game being called an RPG have nothing to do with "real-time" versus "turned based." That's your own insecurity talking there.

 

[jarrod]

List Wars?! East side!!

-Dragon Warrior
-Final Fantasy
-Pokemon
-Ogre Battle Saga
-Earthbound
-Tales
-WildARMs
-Fire Emblem
-Shining Force
-Phantasy Star
-Phantasy Star Online
-Gargoyle's Quest
-Crystalis
-Dragon Warrior Monsters
-Final Fantasy Tactics
-Slime Morimori
-Secret/Sword/Legend of Mana
-Legend of Zelda
-Castlevania
-SaGa
-Shadow Hearts
-Albert Odyssey
-Far East of Eden
-SoulBlazer/Gaia/Terranigma
-Star Ocean
-Baten Kaitos
-Valkyrie Profile
-Fushugi no Dungeon
-Yu-Gi-Oh!
-Shin Megami Tensei
-Breath of Fire
-Mushashi
-River King
-Paper Mario
-Monster World
-Panzer Dragoon Saga
-Front Mission
-Ys
-Neutopia
-Lunar
-Grandia
-Dragon Force
-Langrisser
-Chrono Trigger/Cross
-Samurai Spirits RPG
-Popolocrois
-LandStalker/Alundra/Dual Hearts
-Dark Cloud
-Suikoden
-Oasis
-MegaMan Battle Network
-Summon Knight
-Disgaea/La Puicelle/Phantom Brave

...should I keep going?

 

[jarrod]

If you control the character progression and development, then that makes the game an rpg.

So which is the better RPG, Kid Icarus or Cubivore?

 

[Tabris]

You forgot to list a game like Super Mario RPG. A game that broke the mold of the genre once again. Even breed genres together.

Still waiting for western games that innovate like Super Mario RPG or Valkyrie Profile. Games that add mechanics from other genres like platforming or the timing and combo-intensive gameplay of action or fighting games.

EDIT - and before I get a response, yes, it's not the singular mechanics that are innovative about them (just copied from other genres). It's the fact they're merging them with traditional eastern RPG mechanics that makes them so unique.

 

[IJoel]

Explain to me the innovation the recent western RPGs do to break the western RPG genre mold. What's so different about a game like KOTOR compared to previous western RPGs?

Then compare that to something like Dragon Quarter, and what it does different from it's respective genre.

Then tell me which genre is innovating more.

From the very early BG games, there was the element of freedom of choice and alignment in your character development. This has been expanded even more with recent games (Morrowind, for instance) where freedom truly reigns.

I haven't played Dragon Quarter... wait... I did play that and stopped playing after a couple hours, when I realized the developers relied on a ridiculous save system to introduce difficulty to the game. And let me say, I didn't find it really that hard, but the stupidity of such save system in a long rpg just was a major turn off for me. From what I played there was really nothing innovating in DQ, other than a good integration of RTS elements.

 

[FoneBone]

Kickass eastern RPGs didn't start with KotOR.

They certainly didn't.

 

[IJoel]

So which is the better RPG, Kid Icarus or Cubivore?

Don't be ridiculous. If you are not dense, you should know what I mean.

However, if you define an RPG game by whether the combat is real time or not, then I guess you are dense indeed.

Edit: And btw, I never said Eastern RPGs were bad. I enjoy them myself.

 

[Semjaza Azazel]

After playing a decent amount of console and PC RPGs, I really cannot figure out what people love about KOTOR so much. I really enjoyed the character development, but other than that I found the gameplay to largely be a chore.

Perhaps it's new and exciting for people who play nothing but console RPGs, but it seems like a step down compared to a lot of comparable games I've played elsewhere.

 

[radios shipping overview]

You could say the same thing about "Western" RPGs. where are all the games that strive to truly play differently from each other? Where's the Tales of Symphonia? Where's the Dragon Quarter? Where's the Star Ocean of Western RPGs?" Sticking to and refining core design elements isn't unique to 'Eastern" RPGs.

Yeah, I mentioned earlier that western RPG devs tend to work for more refinement than innovation, but that they utilize technology to expand the gameplay and to create richer worlds. They introduce more for the player to do and allow more possibilities as far as character construction and, well, role-playing.

A perfect example is how the Wizardry series has evolved on both sides of the Pacific. Wizardry 8 introduced a free-roaming control scheme and battles that happen directly within the same environment that the player explores, along with an interface that is up to current standards for PC RPGs and dungeons with realistic layouts. Wizardry: TFL (PS2) stuck with orthogonal dungeons, tile-based movement, nearly-random encounters that take place in a separate engine, and a single dungeon with a town on top instead of a fully-realized world, just like early PC entries in the series with their town menu and single dungeon.

Wizardry 8 pushed the series' gameplay and immersion forward with technology, while Wizardry:TFL utilized the ancient structure from the series' origin and added modern artwork, 3D graphics, and a combination-attack system. This reflects what I see when I compare western RPG development with eastern. Western developers push gameplay upward and outward making improvements in all aspects of play, while the improvements made to eastern RPGs are mostly peripheral and the gameplay core is kept as close to the original idea as possible.

As far as games that stand out from the others, I think the reason you don't see games that stick out as far as a DQ or a Vagrant Story is that there's enough variation within the genre that there's not a gameplay norm that's well-defined enough for games to stand out from so distinctly. Fallout doesn't play like Morrowind doesn't play like Icewind Dale doesn't play like Planescape: Torment. Core concepts can vary as far as player freedom and battle engines and focus on story, and there's not a single mold that's there waiting to be broken.

 

[Tabris]

From the very early BG games, there was the element of freedom of choice and alignment in your character development. This has been expanded even more with recent games (Morrowind, for instance) where freedom truly reigns.

This is what the genre is all about though. This is western RPGs. What you're describing is what the foundation of the genre is based on. So I don't see how this is innovation, but just evolution of the genre.

So you may prefer this style of approach to the RPG genre as a whole, that's fine, but saying this is innovative is just wrong. It's just an evolution, not a revolution.

 

[dark10x]

From the very early BG games, there was the element of freedom of choice and alignment in your character development. This has been expanded even more with recent games (Morrowind, for instance) where freedom truly reigns.

That's what they've always been like, though...

Just like many JRPGs are based upon games like FF1...many Western RPGs are based upon that idea. How is that innovation? Both types just expand upon games which came before...it just so happens that, along the way, SOME games have proven to be innovative. Your idea presented above is not innovative, however...

 

[IJoel]

So basically you want GTA with swords, magic and a DnD combat system?

This is what the genre is all about though. This is western RPGs. What you're describing is what the foundation of the genre is based on. So I don't see how this is innovation, but just evolution of the genre.

So you may prefer this style of approach to the RPG genre as a whole, that's fine, but saying this is innovative is just wrong. It's just an evolution, not a revolution.

No, that's NOT the point.

Yes, that's the direction the games are currently taking, but the point I'm making is that there's no such movement forward from the western rpg developers. They don't drive significant changes. They work on the same formula over and over again. Granted, they make nice changes and great games. As I said again, that's not the point. But if they continue the same approach, there will come a point where the difference will be so significant in terms of immersion (which is key for RPG games) that their market share might be affected negatively in a significant way.

Evolution, schmevolution... what do you consider innovation then? A sword coming out of the TV and stabbing your heart when your character dies?