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Canada's health plan is perfect!!

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themadcowtipper

Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
SIKE!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/10/international/americas/10canada.html?oref=login&oref=login
In Blow to Canada's Health System, Quebec Law Is Voided

TORONTO, June 9 - The Supreme Court on Thursday struck down a Quebec law banning private medical insurance in a decision that represents an acute blow to the publicly financed national health care system.

The high court stopped short of striking down the constitutionality of the country's vaunted health care system nationwide, but specialists across the legal spectrum said they expected the decision to lead to sweeping changes in the Canadian health care system.

"The language of the ruling will encourage more and more lawsuits and those suits have a greater likelihood of success in light of this judgment," said Lorne Sossin, acting dean of the University of Toronto law school.

Patrick Monahan, dean of the Osgoode Hall Law School of York University in Toronto and a well-known critic of the national health care system, was even more emphatic about the import of the decision. "They are going to have to change the fundamental design of the system," he said. "They will have to build in an element of timely care or otherwise allow the development of a private medical system."

The Canadian health care system provides free doctor's services that are paid for by taxes. The system has generally been strongly supported by the public, and is broadly identified with the Canadian national character. Canada is the only industrialized county that outlaws privately financed purchases of core medical services.

But in recent years patients have been forced to wait longer for diagnostic tests and elective surgery, while the wealthy and well connected either sought care in the United States or used influence to jump medical lines.

The court ruled that the waiting lists had become so long that they violated patients' "life and personal security, inviolability and freedom" under the Quebec charter of human rights and freedoms, which covers about one-quarter of Canada's population.

"The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care," the Supreme Court ruled. "In sum, the prohibition on obtaining private health insurance is not constitutional where the public system fails to deliver reasonable services."

The case was brought to the Supreme Court by Jacques Chaoulli, a Montreal family doctor who argued his own case through the courts, and George Zeliotis, a chemical salesman who was forced to wait a year for a hip replacement while he was prohibited from paying privately for surgery. Dr. Chaoulli and Mr. Zeliotis lost in two Quebec provincial courts before the Supreme Court decided to take their appeal.

In a news conference, Dr. Chaoulli declared a victory and predicted that the decision would eventually apply to all Canada. "How could you imagine that Quebecers may live," he asked, "and the English Canadian has to die?"

There was no immediate impact on the national system outside Quebec, since the justices split by a vote of 3 t0 3 on the question of whether the Quebec ban on private medical insurance violated the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Canada's bill of rights, as the two plaintiffs contended.

However, specialists predicted that the decision would have widespread importance.

Margaret Somerville, professor of law and medicine at McGill University, said the ruling "is extremely important" in large part because "the provinces that want to run some form of a complementary private system would probably be able to do so now."

Alberta provincial officials have long suggested that they wanted to develop a private health care system, while private diagnostic and special surgery clinics have been cropping up in Quebec, British Columbia and Ontario in recent years.

The federal government has threatened to hold back financial aid to provinces that pressed ahead with private health care, but Ms. Somerville said Ottawa would be less likely to do so now.

Dr. Chaoulli, who was born in France, has long called for Canada to adopt a two-tier, public-private health care system similar to those in France, Germany and Switzerland. Supporters of the current system, however, have argued that a two-tier system will draw doctors away from the public system, which already has a shortage of doctors, and only lengthen waiting lists.

Dr. Chaoulli has long been viewed as a gadfly in political and medical circles. He went on a hunger strike in the streets of Montreal in 1997 after he was forced to abandon a private emergency house call service.

Prime Minister Paul Martin responded to the decision by saying that his government was making progress in shortening waiting times for medical services. "What today's decision does do, however, is accentuate just how important it is to act immediately, how urgent this situation is," he acknowledged. But he rejected the notion that the ruling would bring about fundamental change.

"We are not going to have a two-tier health care system in this country," Mr. Martin told reporters. "Nobody wants that. What we want to do is to strengthen the public health care system."
 

ManaByte

Member
And with that, Michael Moore's next movie is debunked before he's even done selectively editing his footage to meet his agenda.
 

LakeEarth

Member
It's free. They've been getting better at waits lately (in my experience) so I'm pretty good about it. My city just needs more doctors (right by the states so they all go over there for the big bucks).
 

Shinobi

Member
Canada's "wonderful health system" is a myth that might rank up there with pots of gold under the rainbow and the tooth fairy.. It's frankly hilarious seeing people up here celebrate a system that has you waiting 45 minutes at a family doctor to get a perscription for medicine to help ease the pain of a migraine. Seeing the stupid fucks getting on TV yesterday proclaiming this ruling as some sort of death blow to the founding principles of Canada (Medicare's only been around for 40 years) made me so sick, I almost needed a doctor.

If someone can afford to buy health care that some people die while waiting for, then they should be able to without giving it a second thought. There isn't one good reason for that right to be taken away.
 
Shinobi said:
Canada's wonderful health system is one of the bigger myths going. It's frankly hilarious seeing people up here celebrate a system that has you waiting 45 minutes at a family doctor to get a perscription for medicine to help ease the pain of a migraine. Seeing the stupid fucks getting on TV yesterday proclaiming this ruling as some sort of death blow to the founding principles of Canada made me sick enough to warrant a trip to the doctor myself.

If someone can afford to buy health care that some people die while waiting for, then they should be able to without giving it a second thought. There isn't one Goddamn reason for that right to be taken away.

45 minutes? So what! I've waited longer than that before but I've even waited for less than 5 minutes in some cases. If you are really sick you'll get help. If you need an operation you are going to get it. Best thing about the system is that everyone gets health care in one manner or another rich or poor. It isn't perfect and could get better but it isn't awful.
 

Diablos

Member
Ha. I pay for health insurance, and I had to wait at the doctor's for OVER AND HOUR once, just to get a checkup and some antibiotics.
 

dem

Member
Eh
Last weekend a friend of mine got a huge gash on his hand. He went in.. got like 28 stitches... and was out in a bit over an hour.

It aint so bad.
 

Phoenix

Member
The law brings Canada to what is actually the IDEAL system. Everyone has free healthcare, but you can see people outside the system to handle elective surgeries or things you just don't want to wait for. At that point everyone is covered, stuff that isn't critical can be handled by people out-of-pocket, and things that you consider critical (but that the government feels you should be able to live with) can be taken care of on your own dime.
 

Diablos

Member
I dunno why some of you think paying for your healthcare means you will get taken care of instantly. It usually doesn't, believe me.
 

ShadowRed

Banned
Question for the Canadians when you say you wait do you mean you walk into a hospital and they just point you to chairs, or do they ask you what's the problem is first then point you to chairs. If you're bitching because they don't drop everyone else and come to your aid, then boo freaking hoo. I'm sure if you have a serious medical emergency you get treated immediately. It's not like you sit in the waiting area with a gunshot wound to your face for 10 hours. I have medical and dental and even with an appointment I’ve had to wait 30 minutes to an hour before being seen because someone came in with an emergency. That's the way life is. Sometimes you’re not going to get to be first. Quit bitch'in and be happy that you get to see a doctor eventually unlike some people in certain countries.
 

Phoenix

Member
Diablos said:
I dunno why some of you think paying for your healthcare means you will get taken care of instantly. It usually doesn't, believe me.


Because that's the way it works for some of us. Depends entirely on the health insurance you've got and the healthcare system in your area.
 

dem

Member
ShadowRed said:
Question for the Canadians when you say you wait do you mean you walk into a hospital and they just point you to chairs, or do they ask you what's the problem is first then point you to chairs. If you're bitching because they don't drop everyone else and come to your aid, then boo freaking hoo. I'm sure if you have a serious medical emergency you get treated immediately. It's not like you sit in the waiting area with a gunshot wound to your face for 10 hours. I have medical and dental and even with an appointment I’ve had to wait 30 minutes to an hour before being seen because someone came in with an emergency. That's the way life is. Sometimes you’re not going to get to be first. Quit bitch'in and be happy that you get to see a doctor eventually unlike some people in certain countries.

Generally talking about waiting lists for surgery. The wait can be months.
 

Azih

Member
In my experience Emergency Room priorities in Canada are based on need and then duration of wait, so if a car crash victim comes in then the kid with the broken arm has to wait a little longer to get attention. He gets to go before the guy who came after him with a broken rib though (No matter who's richer).


Phoenix: In that system people who can pay get better medical care than those who can't. There's a severe reaction against that.

Thing is that for services not considered necessary that's already true in Canada. Hip replacemens and the like *are* however considered medically necessary and the extreme waiting times for those is what brought this to a head.


That's what 10 years of Martin government will do people. Vote NDP already!


In other news, that rat bastard Mike Harris said this was good news.
 

Shinobi

Member
Warm Machine said:
45 minutes? So what! I've waited longer than that before but I've even waited for less than 5 minutes in some cases. If you are really sick you'll get help. If you need an operation you are going to get it. Best thing about the system is that everyone gets health care in one manner or another rich or poor. It isn't perfect and could get better but it isn't awful.

The fuck, you didn't read what I said? People have fucking DIED waiting for treatment, who beforehand are told they can't pay for private health because it won't be fair to some immigrant family of seven that can barely afford the rent on their two bedroom, roach infested apartment.

A 45 minute wait at the doctor is a nusiance that affects most everybody...no big deal. But waiting an entire day to get a pregnancy test looked after? Waiting two years for an MRI? Waiting ten years for a hip replacement? Fuck that shit. Ain't no way that can be deemed acceptable under any circumstances.









Diablos said:
I dunno why some of you think paying for your healthcare means you will get taken care of instantly. It usually doesn't, believe me.

That isn't the issue with me. The issue is that some of the provinces (including Ontario) don't even give people the option to choose. And in a "free" and "democratic" society, that's just ridiculous.

Someone on TV last night made a terrific point. People think a two-tier health system is some sort of great sin, and health should be available and equal to all. Okay, fine. What about the justice system? Is it not true that the more you can pay for a lawyer, the better your chances are of escaping the charges pressed against you? Seriously, what's the fucking difference? And why is there such a feigned moral outrage over the health system, but little said about the justice system? What, justice shouldn't be available and equal to all?

The fact that the health system has gone into the shitter the past decade while the Liberal government has spent that time using taxpayer money to fund their friends pet projects is what makes it all the richer. And yet somehow those corrupt cocksuckers are even further ahead in the latest polls, at least in this province. Stupid fucking morons...
 
Shinobi said:
Canada's "wonderful health system" is a myth that might rank up there with pots of gold under the rainbow and the tooth fairy.. It's frankly hilarious seeing people up here celebrate a system that has you waiting 45 minutes at a family doctor to get a perscription for medicine to help ease the pain of a migraine. Seeing the stupid fucks getting on TV yesterday proclaiming this ruling as some sort of death blow to the founding principles of Canada (Medicare's only been around for 40 years) made me so sick, I almost needed a doctor.

If someone can afford to buy health care that some people die while waiting for, then they should be able to without giving it a second thought. There isn't one good reason for that right to be taken away.

Yeah is sucks waiting... Unlike Canada in other countries if you don't have health insurance or money you don't even have to wait, you die peacefully in you sofa. Now that's a great health plan!
 

Shinobi

Member
fortified_concept said:
Yeah is sucks waiting... Unlike Canada in other countries like US they're smarter. If you don't have health insurance or money you don't even have to wait, you die peacefully in you sofa. Now that's a great health plan!

Why compare ourselves to just the US? You do know there are another 218 countries on this planet right?

Both systems fucking suck...people in the US are dying cause they can't afford shit. People up here are dying cause they're not allowed to pay for shit, and the shit their taxes are paying for isn't being freed up for them. Neither country's got a Goddamn thing to be proud of, which was my main point...Canadians looking down our noses at the US system when our system has broken down so badly with closed down hospitals and far longer waiting lists (and all the while being propped up on our own fucking money) is a complete and utter joke.

Here's something I read about our wonderful system...we're apparantely one of three countries in the entire world where buying private health isn't permitted. The other two nations? North Korea and Cuba. :lol Now if that's the sort of company you're happy to keep, then light a blunt and dance a jig. But I reckon those with the ability to think for themselves can see that something is seriously fucked up there.
 
Uh, everytime I go to the doctors I have to wait just as long. You sit outside in the lobby for about 45 minutes beyond what your appointment was scheduled for, and then they take your into the room where you wait another 30 minutes for the doctor to actually come in.
 

Shinobi

Member
*sigh* The 45 minute wait for the doctor was merely a small slice of my point...it's the other waiting times that are completely ridiculous.
 
Shinobi said:
Why compare ourselves to just the US? You do know there are another 218 countries on this planet right?

Both systems fucking suck...people in the US are dying cause they can't afford shit. People up here are dying cause they're not allowed to pay for shit, and the shit their taxes are paying for isn't being freed up for them. Neither country's got a Goddamn thing to be proud of, which was my main point...Canadians looking down our noses at the US system when our system has broken down so badly with closed down hospitals and far longer waiting lists (and all the while being propped up on our own fucking money) is a complete and utter joke.

Here's something I read about our wonderful system...we're apparantely one of three countries in the entire world where buying private health isn't permitted. The other two nations? North Korea and Cuba. :lol Now if that's the sort of company you're happy to keep, then light a blunt and dance a jig. But I reckon those with the ability to think for themselves can see that something is seriously fucked up there.

I edited the post almost instantly because I was generally speaking. Although in Europe things are better than the US, they aren't that different. People still die because their public health insurance tries to avoid for example the costs of an expensive surgery and for the people who don't have one things are, well, bad. And btw I really like Cuba's health and educational systems. Considering the sad economic state of Cuba due to the embargo both systems are almost perfect. And btw I would prefer waiting for 2 hours -not 45 mins- if it meant that one fellowman would live and not die like a helpless animal.
 

Phoenix

Member
Azih said:
Phoenix: In that system people who can pay get better medical care than those who can't. There's a severe reaction against that.


According to the article, that's happening. People with money are finding ways to jump the line or they are simply going to places that don't have those restrictions - like their bordering country to the south.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
A mixed public/private system is, of course, the ideal situation-- it's the particulars that people generally disagree on. For my own conception of what the "best possible system" would be, see post #26 in this thread, the reasoning for which is fleshed out throughout the remainder of the thread. For critiques and comparisons between the American and Canadian health care systems by yours truly, see this thread, starting at post #184 and continuing throughout the remainder of the thread. I usually wouldn't reference past posts, but I've done a lot of writing about this particular topic here over the years, and refuse to waste more time on it. :p
 

Azih

Member
Most of this of course ignores the fact that for 10 years the system has been underfunded by the federal government and that new immigrant medical talent that has flowed into this country has been completely squandered since provinces haven't been willing to invest in helping the newcomer doctors to get Canadian qualifications.

The number of doctors working as gas station attendants and taxi drivers in this country is fucking atrocious.


North Korea is bad company to be in. Cuba is decent. Cubans are pretty well of as far as health coverage goes.
 

Boogie

Member
Canada's health care system is responsible for my dad likely not being able to go back to his job because of the insane wait to get his shoulder even looked at by a competant doctor. It's been nearly two years since he injured it, and still no surgery, while if it had've been taken care of quickly, it probably could have been fixed and healed so that he could go back to work.

Thanks a fucking lot, Canada.
 

pestul

Member
I don't mind the waiting. I broke my hand (fucked up good). I had surgery the following day.. A couple checkups I had to wait 4+hrs. I didn't care. Physiotherapy was free because surgery was performed in the hospital (no wait for those visits, and they worked around my schedule). A little bit of waiting, but everything was taken care of. I'm not going to complain. Oh, had reconstructive surgery on my nose (grafted cartilage from my ribs) that wasn't deemed necessary, on the government dollar. I mean, it was going to collapse at some point and become a breathing issue down the road, but it certainly wasn't pressing... plastic surgeon said that the surgery cost the government $40k.
 

Azih

Member
Waiting times are really really random, my mother has had both good and bad experiences. The free physiotherapy was really helpful until Ontario delisted it as necessary. But hey, tax cuts!
 
Haha, this whining about the Canadian healthcare system is great. Nothing's perfect and big bloated bureacracies with a lack of local oversight tend to get fucked up, private healthcare is not the answer. US healthcare inflation is at over 10% and is going to collapse in the next couple of years if something drastic isn't done. I just wonder if you'll stop complaining about 45 minute waits when 8 people in America still have health insurance.
 

MC Safety

Member
reggieandTFE said:
Haha, this whining about the Canadian healthcare system is great. Nothing's perfect and big bloated bureacracies with a lack of local oversight tend to get fucked up, private healthcare is not the answer. US healthcare inflation is at over 10% and is going to collapse in the next couple of years if something drastic isn't done. I just wonder if you'll stop complaining about 45 minute waits when 8 people in America still have health insurance.

Hyperbole rules!
 

Loki

Count of Concision
reggieandTFE said:
Haha, this whining about the Canadian healthcare system is great. Nothing's perfect and big bloated bureacracies with a lack of local oversight tend to get fucked up, private healthcare is not the answer. US healthcare inflation is at over 10% and is going to collapse in the next couple of years if something drastic isn't done. I just wonder if you'll stop complaining about 45 minute waits when 8 people in America still have health insurance.

There are various reasons for medical inflation in the US, including, but not limited to: defensive medicine (estimates range from $40-90B per year depending on the source cited), the bureaucracy necessitated by managed care (administrative costs have increased over 500% since 1995), and overutilization/overconsumption of technology and drugs (this is both provider- and patient-driven for various reasons). These factors are examined more closely in the threads I linked to previously.


I think it's disingenuous to attribute our medical inflation solely to our non-socialized system; in fact, as our system has become increasingly "socialized" over the years (that is, as third parties such as insurance companies, HMO's, and government have become more involved in the health care process), expenditures have skyrocketed. Streamlining the bureaucracy by instituting a single-payor system would obviously reduce some/much of the administrative costs (assuming efficient implementation, which is a big "if"), however it does not address some of the other factors which contribute to medical inflation, such as overconsumption, which is driven primarily by the involvement of proxy payors. Detaching consumers from the costs of their care leads to overutilization; simultaneously, increasing expectations on the part of citizens causes them to clamor for the "best possible treatment" at any expense. Unreasonable expectations are a problem with American culture in general, not just with regards to medical care, but that's a discussion best saved for another time. :p


There are three main components to any health care system-- access, quality, and cost. You can't have two without adversely affecting the other. Trying to strike the proper balance between these factors while still ensuring patient and provider satisfaction is obviously a very tricky thing to do. In my personal analysis, there are other ethical and philosophical issues which factor into the discussion of what "the best possible system" would look like, and these and other pertinent issues (including those discussed above) are addressed in the threads I linked to in my previous post (and the threads I linked to in those threads).



I just don't feel that such dismissive statements as you've made contribute to the search for the most effective and just system for all involved parties. :)
 

Azih

Member
this is both provider- and patient-driven for various reasons
In the American system I've noted that a lot of the patient demand is caused by provider marketing blitz. It's starting to bleed into Canada which makes me very sad.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Azih said:
In the American system I've noted that a lot of the patient demand is caused by provider marketing blitz.

Of course, but that's a whole 'nother issue entirely. :p It's mostly pharmaceutical companies here in the US, though both biotech and drug companies are looking to make inroads into a "new market" up north.


It should be noted, though, that when I spoke of "provider-driven overconsumption," I was mainly referring to overutilization of resources due to the pressures defensive medicine; overprescription of the latest brand name drugs (as opposed to generics or older, more proven options) is both patient and provider-driven -- patients are targeted through DTC advertising, and physicians and hospitals are compromised through lucrative deals for research funding (for hospitals; inclusion of a drug on a hospital's formulary often brings with it big pharm largesse) and professional perks (for private practice docs).
 
fortified_concept said:
Yeah is sucks waiting... Unlike Canada in other countries if you don't have health insurance or money you don't even have to wait, you die peacefully in you sofa. Now that's a great health plan!

Or, if you have money, you fly to the US.

A mixed public/private system is, of course, the ideal situation-- it's the particulars that people generally disagree on. For my own conception of what the "best possible system" would be, see post #26 in this thread, the reasoning for which is fleshed out throughout the remainder of the thread. For critiques and comparisons between the American and Canadian health care systems by yours truly, see this thread, starting at post #184 and continuing throughout the remainder of the thread. I usually wouldn't reference past posts, but I've done a lot of writing about this particular topic here over the years, and refuse to waste more time on it. :p

Indeed, though the shortage of doctors is worriesome to opponents of a two tiered health care system.

Personally speaking, Canada's health care system has treated my family and I great. My father had to have back surgery last year, and it was performed within 2 weeks. Whenever I've required medical testing, it's always occured a week or two after I've visited the doctor, which is acceptable for the problems I had encountered.

Most of this of course ignores the fact that for 10 years the system has been underfunded by the federal government and that new immigrant medical talent that has flowed into this country has been completely squandered since provinces haven't been willing to invest in helping the newcomer doctors to get Canadian qualifications.

Yeah, underfund to balance the budget, then when a crisis comes knocking at the door they have no reaction except: WTF. Romanow did a fucking investigation as have others in the past. We're paying for experts to take a long, hard look at our health care system, and none of their reccommendations are being implemented. Stupid.

Haha, this whining about the Canadian healthcare system is great. Nothing's perfect and big bloated bureacracies with a lack of local oversight tend to get fucked up, private healthcare is not the answer. US healthcare inflation is at over 10% and is going to collapse in the next couple of years if something drastic isn't done. I just wonder if you'll stop complaining about 45 minute waits when 8 people in America still have health insurance.

People who want to stick with the status quo in health care invariably bring up the American model as a reason not a switch. Guess what? Everyone knows the American model doesn't work the way a health care system should, so we aren't going to switch to that. Instead, as someone else in this thread already pointed out, look to the Europeans for inspiration. While it's true their geography makes supplying excellent medical coverage less difficult, we can take a few cues from their systems of supplying health care.
 

Shinobi

Member
No no, don't look anywhere else!! We can only compare things to America!! And since their system sucks, ours obviously rules!! Now go drink a Molson and shut up!!

Fucking retards...






fortified_concept said:
And btw I would prefer waiting for 2 hours -not 45 mins- if it meant that one fellowman would live and not die like a helpless animal.

I simply don't get this logic...a person should suffer because everyone else does? It makes zero sense.

This is the warped view that's choked this country ever since I've been here. Instead of looking to develop a system that could one day bring everyone up to the level of care that private insitutions provide, we instead prefer to keep people down at the medicority level of the public system, and drag down anyone who could rise above it. It's so wonderfully socialist...par for the course in Canada.





Azih said:
Most of this of course ignores the fact that for 10 years the system has been underfunded by the federal government and that new immigrant medical talent that has flowed into this country has been completely squandered since provinces haven't been willing to invest in helping the newcomer doctors to get Canadian qualifications.

And yet the federal Liberals have been re-elected three successive times, as if the health care system (allegedly the #1 issue with voters) is right as rain. It's simply absurd, particularly with the corruption over the course of the same ten years that's being documented.

Of course the Conservatives are doing themselves no favours with the chimp they've currently got as leader, nevermind the ridiculous tape editing scandal that they're now involved in. Sad that the NDP is seemingly the best looking alternative, when they redefine socialism.





Boogie said:
Canada's health care system is responsible for my dad likely not being able to go back to his job because of the insane wait to get his shoulder even looked at by a competant doctor. It's been nearly two years since he injured it, and still no surgery, while if it had've been taken care of quickly, it probably could have been fixed and healed so that he could go back to work.

Thanks a fucking lot, Canada.

This is the sort of shit I'm talking about...and we're actually proud of it! We really are a nation of sheep...yeah nothing's wrong, we're better then the US, now let's stick our heads in the sand! Sorry to hear about that Boogie.






reggieandTFE said:
Haha, this whining about the Canadian healthcare system is great. Nothing's perfect and big bloated bureacracies with a lack of local oversight tend to get fucked up, private healthcare is not the answer. US healthcare inflation is at over 10% and is going to collapse in the next couple of years if something drastic isn't done. I just wonder if you'll stop complaining about 45 minute waits when 8 people in America still have health insurance.

Yeah, because Boogie's father waiting time to get his shoulder looked at was a mere 45 minutes...I just love the selective quoting in this thread (not to mention the continued yankee doodle comparisons), keep it going.
 

fart

Savant
the answer to an ailing, underfunded, understaffed public health care system is not private, profiteering health care, but better funding and management of the ailing, underfunded, understaffed public health care system.
 

Phoenix

Member
fart said:
the answer to an ailing, underfunded, understaffed public health care system is not private, profiteering health care, but better funding and management of the ailing, underfunded, understaffed public health care system.

That's not the answer either. A rapidly growing and AGING population makes that spiral into insane costs too. One of the reasons why the Canadian system wouldn't work here is that our population is simply too large and the tax burdon would be punishing to get that system implemented.
 

Phoenix

Member
Shinobi said:
And yet the federal Liberals have been re-elected three successive times, as if the health care system (allegedly the #1 issue with voters) is right as rain. It's simply absurd, particularly with the corruption over the course of the same ten years that's being documented.

Of course the Conservatives are doing themselves no favours with the chimp they've currently got as leader, nevermind the ridiculous tape editing scandal that they're now involved in. Sad that the NDP is seemingly the best looking alternative, when they redefine socialism.

For a second I almost thought you were talking about the US until I realized you were talking about different political parties :) Its funny that for all involved, the grass always seems to be greener somewhere else.
 

Azih

Member
Phoenix said:
That's not the answer either. A rapidly growing and AGING population makes that spiral into insane costs too. One of the reasons why the Canadian system wouldn't work here is that our population is simply too large and the tax burdon would be punishing to get that system implemented.
Dude you do know that as percentage of GDP Canada spends less on healthcare than the U.S? What with you guys also being way richer than us, you could have a kick ass public heathcare system.


To Shin, I agree with the insanity of Canadians voting in the Liberals time and again. But look, as soon as they were reduced to a minority things started getting better. Shit we're getting new buses now, WITHOUT a fare increase! The miracles of the federal government being forced to invest where we need them to invest.....

Vote NDP already dammit. They actually force fiberals to live up to their damn promises.
 

Shinobi

Member
fart said:
the answer to an ailing, underfunded, understaffed public health care system is not private, profiteering health care, but better funding and management of the ailing, underfunded, understaffed public health care system.

In the meantime, you think people who have the means to get access to private health should be kept from doing so? Who the hell does that serve, outside of self-serving political interests?






Phoenix said:
For a second I almost thought you were talking about the US until I realized you were talking about different political parties :) Its funny that for all involved, the grass always seems to be greener somewhere else.

Heh, this is true. I think both countries are fucked up, but for very different reasons. And neither situation appears to be getting any better.







Azih said:
To Shin, I agree with the insanity of Canadians voting in the Liberals time and again. But look, as soon as they were reduced to a minority things started getting better. Shit we're getting new buses now, WITHOUT a fare increase! The miracles of the federal government being forced to invest where we need them to invest.....

WTF...we got our fare increase like three months ago. :lol A nice little twenty cent boost in the middle of the worst winter in years, and not long before a near-work stoppage to boot. And the new buses we're getting are those Godawful pieces of shit with no leg room in the seats anyway. :lol Sure hope they drop a few more buses per route during rush hour to alleviate the ridiculous crowding seen with these mobile sardine cans, but I won't hold my breath.

And Ontario's still getting fucked over in terms of transfer payments anyway, so who really cares? All the Libs have done giving us enough money to buy a few more buses is show enough concern to lube their dick up before continuing to ram our ass.
 

Phoenix

Member
Azih said:
Dude you do know that as percentage of GDP Canada spends less on healthcare than the U.S? What with you guys also being way richer than us, you could have a kick ass public heathcare system.

You can't just snap your fingers and convert the US system into any other system. It won't work that way except in make believe land. As such you have to revamp whatever system you have and convert it into something else. With a country of our size with our social security system already 'financially imperil'd', numerous social programs on the chopping block, etc. it is unrealistic. Look Canada is a nice little country that doesn't have the type of monetary issues that we do, nor does the EU. What works in one country is not going to work in another country unless the laws, ideals, and sociology of those countries are the same. I can say for certain that I'm against any system that lowers the level of service that I currently experience. So at a minimum you have to make a system where I can right now go to the doctor and be seen and potentially operated on in the next 15 minutes because that is what I currently have.
 
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