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[Doom85]

That's not what he said tho.

Using a character in a way to give the main character angst or some form of trauma BECAUSE something horrible happened to a loved one ... That's what he's talking about.

Exactly.

Especially in long-running series like the comics or these movie franchises, these deaths simply remove potential stories that could have been told with the character who was killed off, and just adds temporary angst for the existing characters affected who likely have already dealt with similar angst already.

Peter Quill had already dealt with losing Yondu. Thor had already dealt with losing his parents. Removing Gamora from Peter and Loki from Thor just removed story potential with those characters together so the survivors could cry about it which we’ve already seen. Thor being emotionally broken 5 years later when Rocket and Bruce find him in Endgame could have worked purely to Thor failing to stop Thanos from completing his objective. Loki did not have to die to accomplish that.

Now, yes, later entries did manage to make something of this with the Gamora variant in Guardians 3, and the Loki in, well, Loki. But the Gamora variant in Guardians 3 was written by James Gunn, not the Infinity War writers. And as for the Loki show, he never has any more interaction with Thor. So I’m not really giving credit to Infinity War for the former, and the latter went a different direction with that Loki (and the original Loki did not need to be dead for the alternate Loki to exist).

Natasha and especially Tony actually felt like a reasonable conclusion to their personal stories. They didn’t die purely for the other characters to cry over. THAT’S why their deaths work for me. I will give Loki that he does try to do the right thing at the end by attempting to stab Thanos, but it’s done so quickly and at the start of the movie that it’s hard to feel like this was a satisfying end to that character. It comes off as far more focused on, “let’s make Thor even sadder” and “let’s make Thanos threatening, even though we just had him wipe the floor with Hulk and Thor!” and less focused on a good send off for such a long running character like Loki.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Cap is an amazing character, yes they purged characters with End Game. I imagine Marvel knows how super hero movies go and I trust them.

 

[DeafTourette]

Which is anytime a good guy dies.
Even Spider-Man dying in front of Tony Stark would fit that definition.

No.

Take the Kyle Rainer storyline Doom mentioned...

His GF is killed and ... Well .. fridged.

The story focused on KYLE and his grief... Comfort was being given to HIM... his fridged GF was just a plot device. The consequences of HER death to HER family or her memory are never a focus. Which is the exact opposite of what happens in other books like Superman... The killed person is the focus and what THEIR family goes through and Superman would just be a supportive character.

 

[TGO]

A Decade ago

And this succeeds it....
Also what's with the amateur attempt at 24..

 

[bitbydeath]

No.

Take the Kyle Rainer storyline Doom mentioned...

His GF is killed and ... Well .. fridged.

The story focused on KYLE and his grief... Comfort was being given to HIM... his fridged GF was just a plot device. The consequences of HER death to HER family or her memory are never a focus. Which is the exact opposite of what happens in other books like Superman... The killed person is the focus and what THEIR family goes through and Superman would just be a supportive character.

End game focused on Tony Stark’s grief as well.

This amazing scene from Predator is also because of grief.

If the good guys dying doesn’t elicit an emotional response that drives them then it would be hollow and unrealistic, not an overused trope.

 

[FunkMiller]

That's not what he said tho.

Using a character in a way to give the main character angst or some form of trauma BECAUSE something horrible happened to a loved one ... That's what he's talking about.

This is a weird tangent to go off on, considering I never suggested killing Sam would in any way act as an additional trauma for Bucky. Doom85 just made an assumption.

Steve gives Sam the shield. Sam dies in a heroic fashion in Falcon & The Winter Soldier. Bucky reluctantly takes up the shield. The one doesn't not have to be automatically connected to the other. In fact, it could even be Sam's heroic death that persuades Bucky to become Captain America in a more positive manner.

No 'fridging' necessary.

 

[Doom85]

This is a weird tangent to go off on, considering I never suggested killing Sam would in any way act as an additional trauma for Bucky. Doom85 just made an assumption.

Steve gives Sam the shield. Sam dies in a heroic fashion in Falcon & The Winter Soldier. Bucky reluctantly takes up the shield. The one doesn't not have to be automatically connected to the other. In fact, it could even be Sam's heroic death that persuades Bucky to become Captain America in a more positive manner.

No 'fridging' necessary.

Okay, I would still say it’s throwing some pretty barebones to have Sam as Cap for only one show and that’s it. Not one solo movie, not one Avengers film with him as Cap.

Compromise? We have this Cap movie. We have Avengers: Doomsday and Avengers: Secret Wars. At the climax of latter, Reed can use one of his good old sci-fi vague energy tech devices he’s known for making and empower Sam/Cap to be able to take on God Emperor Doom. The two fight to a fatal draw for both, with Doom screaming at Reed to fight his own battles as he desperately tries to make it past Sam so he can fight Reed. Sam keeps him back.

Sam: “That man has nothing to prove to you. He could have used his talents to achieve what you have. But he chose to focus on something far more important.”
(Doom looks at Reed, and then the other three of the F4 standing beside Reed)
Doom: “…..and is that what you would have chosen, Captain? Is not power like ours what will ensure we’re remembered even after we’ve left this mortal plane?!”
Sam: “No, it’s not. It’s what we do with it, our choices, that is our true legacy!”
(the unparalleled energy of their clash is beginning to eat away at their bodies)
Doom: “No, I won’t accept that. What I have done in my life, that won’t be forgotten! And there will always be one like me to carry on my legacy!”
Sam: “You’re not wrong on that one. And there will always be people like us as well!”
(the two exchange final blows as they ultimately kill one another and their bodies disintegrate away. As the heroes look on, some grieving, some awestruck at what they had just witnessed, Bucky slows makes his way towards the shield, knocked away at the last moment before the energy clash destroyed even it, and picks it up, his head down, silent, before finally looking up with a determined look)
Bucky (nods): “Always.”

(and before anyone says they would prefer Reed be the one to actually have the final fight against Doom, A) Sam can only fight him due to Reed’s invention, so Reed still plays a very significant role, and B) it’s been heavily rumored the character of Doom won’t end with RDJ’s time in the role. Since the Victor he is playing is presumably from the alternate universe that the F4 will also be from, they can easily bring in a new actor as the Victor from the Sacred Timeline and have him focused on in FF movies from that point.

Also, I wrote all that after tired from a rough work shift, forgive the cheesiness of it. I totally had Gurren Lagann’s final episode climax music playing while imagining that fight, my apologies to the non-anime fans who have no idea what that means)

Because I don’t mean to imply Bucky can NEVER be Cap. I just feel it would be rushed to have it happen even at the end of a different version of FatWS and especially at the end of Endgame. He’s had less interaction with the surviving Avengers compared to Sam (even when Bucky was with them, he mostly spoke to Steve or Sam) and I think even by making amends with those he unwillingly hurt during his time as the WS, he should still have time to breathe and connect with others before taking on such a heavy mantle.

So in short:

Phases 1-3: Steve
Phases 4-6: Sam
Phases 7-9: Bucky

 

[jason10mm]

End game focused on Tony Stark’s grief as well.

This amazing scene from Predator is also because of grief.

If the good guys dying doesn’t elicit an emotional response that drives them then it would be hollow and unrealistic, not an overused trope.

IMHO, the "fridging" thing really only applies to a character that ONLY exists to be killed. So things like a girlfriend that never has a line, maybe isn't even an actual person, just a reference that "I gotta get flowers for my girlfriend" followed by "Oh hey, she just got blown up by The Trickster, I'm gonna KILL that guy!!".

This is writing shorthand in a film to get a characters motivation and buy audience sympathy. The puppy in John Wick is the perfect example. We know jack shit about this puppy, it's just there to be killed and link its death with his wife's death and then drive him to vengeance. MEN can relate to this as it's pretty well understood that men have a much stronger "protect" reflex over their partners than women (unless kids are on the line).

So naturally you will see more fridging events in male driven/male audience stuff, like superheros. I'm sure you could have a million examples of the "neglectful partner who of course forgot the anniversary" as justification for a womans actions in some romcom but since no one really gives a shit about that stuff so there are few men working to change that "negative trope".

 

[jason10mm]

This is a weird tangent to go off on, considering I never suggested killing Sam would in any way act as an additional trauma for Bucky. Doom85 just made an assumption.

Steve gives Sam the shield. Sam dies in a heroic fashion in Falcon & The Winter Soldier. Bucky reluctantly takes up the shield. The one doesn't not have to be automatically connected to the other. In fact, it could even be Sam's heroic death that persuades Bucky to become Captain America in a more positive manner.

No 'fridging' necessary.

I've not seen the FatWS show, but WHY, exactly, does anyone NEED to be Captain America? What specific role/duty requires that title and nothing else will suffice? Obviously I understand the comic meta that the name Cap America is popular, but in-universe why exactly can't Falcon just stay Falcon but add the shield to his toolkit? Does the Army want a person called Captain America as a deterrent to foreign powers and they hope no one notices its not quite the same guy? Or is a pure symbolic gesture since the Rodgers Cap America saved so many people?

So seems to me that Bucky, as a serum enhanced person and having an adamantium arm, could EASILY defeat Sam in almost any situation, particularly when the strength/speed/reflexes for throwing that shield come into play. Thus even if Sam plays Cap A for a time, Bucky (or that other enhanced guy) is the logical inheritor of the mantle because when push comes to shove, Bucky can do more Captainy things than Sam could. Now if Sam has essentially an Iron Man suit now as the explanation for his abilities, then just call him Iron Man, ANOTHER popular and well known hero that fell in battle.

 

[EviLore]

I've not seen the FatWS show, but WHY, exactly, does anyone NEED to be Captain America? What specific role/duty requires that title and nothing else will suffice? Obviously I understand the comic meta that the name Cap America is popular, but in-universe why exactly can't Falcon just stay Falcon but add the shield to his toolkit? Does the Army want a person called Captain America as a deterrent to foreign powers and they hope no one notices its not quite the same guy? Or is a pure symbolic gesture since the Rodgers Cap America saved so many people?

So seems to me that Bucky, as a serum enhanced person and having an adamantium arm, could EASILY defeat Sam in almost any situation, particularly when the strength/speed/reflexes for throwing that shield come into play. Thus even if Sam plays Cap A for a time, Bucky (or that other enhanced guy) is the logical inheritor of the mantle because when push comes to shove, Bucky can do more Captainy things than Sam could. Now if Sam has essentially an Iron Man suit now as the explanation for his abilities, then just call him Iron Man, ANOTHER popular and well known hero that fell in battle.

Or better yet…

 

[jason10mm]

Or better yet…

Dammit, it was RIGHT THERE!

And that film series is still the most preposterous example of 80's "kids can do ANYTHING!" excess. At least the 3 sequels kept LG Jr up on his yacht payments

 

[Chuck Berry]

What are the chances that this bombs or at the very least doesn't make nearly as much as expected?

 

[jason10mm]

What are the chances that this bombs or at the very least doesn't make nearly as much as expected?

Given its INSANE production costs of 400 mill or so and that the film had its entire 3rd act reshot, it seems almost impossible that the end product is actually good (though to be fair, Rogue One had a similar retooling and was still awesome). Add in the total lack of any really popular Marvel stars (Mackie couldn't carry his own TV show and Ford couldn't carry Indy 5) and I'm guessing 500-800 high end worldwide.

Which COULD have been a modest success had this film wrapped on a realistic high budget of 150 mill or so. I bet Ford pockets 20 mill and Mackie is probably in the mid 5-8 mill range at this point unless he is still held by some ancient multi-picture contract, so that leaves plenty for SFX.

Maybe the world market really eats this up, but Winter Soldier did 700 mill in 2014 and Civil War was really a stealth Avengers film in 2016 to 1.1 billion in the amidst of MCUs heights so I don't see this one suddenly going gangbusters past those older films.

 

[Hrk69]

What are the chances that this bombs or at the very least doesn't make nearly as much as expected?

I think it has a fair chance to bomb. It has a couple of things going against it

Superhero Fatigue
Post-Endgame cohesion and mixed phase 4 feedback
Transition to Anthony Mackie’s Captain America
Box Office trends post-pandemic (even with the MCU fanbase)

Obviously it could overcome these challenges. I think this one needs to have a deep connection with the larger MCU to not bomb.

I hope it succeeds.

 

[jason10mm]

I think it has a fair chance to bomb. It has a couple of things going against it

Superhero Fatigue
Post-Endgame cohesion and mixed phase 4 feedback
Transition to Anthony Mackie’s Captain America
Box Office trends post-pandemic (even with the MCU fanbase)

Obviously it could overcome these challenges. I think this one needs to have a deep connection with the larger MCU to not bomb.

I hope it succeeds.

I think you are correct. Folks WANT that "next Thanos" build up and anticipation. I don't think Kang actually would have worked nearly as well but as it stands, there isn't really anything. Just a vague "multi-verse, ooooohhhh aaaaaahhhhh" threat/promise ain't cutting it. I'm not sure what Brave New World is even about because I don't think the film is actually ABOUT anything, it's just a place holder now. Maybe they are being mysterious and there is a wild third act of a Hydra re-emergence or something, but as it stands right now it looks like a bunch of meaningless action until Ford Hulks out for some reason and Mackie has to save him from himself.

Now a post-credits teaser of RDJ as Doom.......I give it 50:50 odds of happening and 90:10 odds that they hint at it to drive asses to seats day one whether it actually is there or not.

 

[FunkMiller]

I've not seen the FatWS show, but WHY, exactly, does anyone NEED to be Captain America? What specific role/duty requires that title and nothing else will suffice? Obviously I understand the comic meta that the name Cap America is popular, but in-universe why exactly can't Falcon just stay Falcon but add the shield to his toolkit? Does the Army want a person called Captain America as a deterrent to foreign powers and they hope no one notices its not quite the same guy? Or is a pure symbolic gesture since the Rodgers Cap America saved so many people?

 

[bitbydeath]

IMHO, the "fridging" thing really only applies to a character that ONLY exists to be killed. So things like a girlfriend that never has a line, maybe isn't even an actual person, just a reference that "I gotta get flowers for my girlfriend" followed by "Oh hey, she just got blown up by The Trickster, I'm gonna KILL that guy!!".

This is writing shorthand in a film to get a characters motivation and buy audience sympathy. The puppy in John Wick is the perfect example. We know jack shit about this puppy, it's just there to be killed and link its death with his wife's death and then drive him to vengeance. MEN can relate to this as it's pretty well understood that men have a much stronger "protect" reflex over their partners than women (unless kids are on the line).

So naturally you will see more fridging events in male driven/male audience stuff, like superheros. I'm sure you could have a million examples of the "neglectful partner who of course forgot the anniversary" as justification for a womans actions in some romcom but since no one really gives a shit about that stuff so there are few men working to change that "negative trope".

Agreed, that would make much more sense.
It wouldn’t apply to a theoretical killing of falcon since he has already had a large character arc.

 

[Toons]

The action scenes at the very least look amazing. Im a big fan of sam as cap so I'm looking forward to this.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I did not know Hulks came in different colors.
They should all get together with the different Venoms and form a band.

 

[DeafTourette]

I did not know Hulks came in different colors.
They should all get together with the different Venoms and form a band.

Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk are the only ones (I think) that are not green. I could be wrong.

 

[jason10mm]

Agreed, that would make much more sense.
It wouldn’t apply to a theoretical killing of falcon since he has already had a large character arc.

I personally against killing off characters just to replace them with some stand-in. If Sam dies are we gonna get a 5'1" mexican girl* as "Falconette" in his place so the actual story doesn't really change?

I want these superhero teams to change up as members die, get injured, or leave. Their power sets, the tactics, the personalities, these should all change to provide variety to the audience. Otherwise its just Ironwoman 2.0, Lady Thor, Falconette, Lady Captain America, Black Widows Sister, Black Panthers sister, Lady Hawkeye, Rainbow Hulk, etc. No one wants to see that bush league WNBA shit, we want the MAJORS!


*Anyone watching Lioness on Paramount and seeing Genesis Rodriguez all buffed out and acting tough....I could see her as a Falcon stand in!

 

[jason10mm]

Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk are the only ones (I think) that are not green. I could be wrong.

Isn't there a grey Hulk as well?

Ok, not sure how legit some of these other ones are....(though Mr. T Hulk, I'd go see that!)

 

[DeafTourette]

I personally against killing off characters just to replace them with some stand-in. If Sam dies are we gonna get a 5'1" mexican girl* as "Falconette" in his place so the actual story doesn't really change?

I want these superhero teams to change up as members die, get injured, or leave. Their power sets, the tactics, the personalities, these should all change to provide variety to the audience. Otherwise its just Ironwoman 2.0, Lady Thor, Falconette, Lady Captain America, Black Widows Sister, Black Panthers sister, Lady Hawkeye, Rainbow Hulk, etc. No one wants to see that bush league WNBA shit, we want the MAJORS!

There's already a new Falcon. He's in the trailer with Sam. He was the young Latino guy from F&TWS. And yes, he's pulled straight from the comics.

In fact, all the folks you listed are. Yes, Shuri was a Black Panther, Kate Bishop is also Hawkeye, Jane Foster was also Thor but then she died and became the new Valkyrie, Red Hulk IS thunderbolt Ross (and yes, Betsy Ross even became Red She-Hulk)...

Some are more popular than others ... there actually is a female Captain America.... But she's a future child of Luke cage and Jessica Jones

 

[jason10mm]

There's already a new Falcon. He's in the trailer with Sam. He was the young Latino guy from F&TWS. And yes, he's pulled straight from the comics.

In fact, all the folks you listed are. Yes, Shuri was a Black Panther, Kate Bishop is also Hawkeye, Jane Foster was also Thor but then she died and became the new Valkyrie, Red Hulk IS thunderbolt Ross (and yes, Betsy Ross even became Red She-Hulk)...

Some are more popular than others ... there actually is a female Captain America.... But she's a future child of Luke cage and Jessica Jones

Well, there you go. Can't blame Marvel for trying to change up the roster but as was mentioned upthread, almost none of them stick. Only reason the Robins change out is because they "promote" up to legit heroes of their own, not stand in for Batman (very long). The Green Lanterns are probably the most successful tag team superheroes.

 

[K' Dash]

So seems to me that Bucky, as a serum enhanced person and having an adamantium arm, could EASILY defeat Sam in almost any situation, particularly when the strength/speed/reflexes for throwing that shield come into play. Thus even if Sam plays Cap A for a time, Bucky (or that other enhanced guy) is the logical inheritor of the mantle because when push comes to shove, Bucky can do more Captainy things than Sam could. Now if Sam has essentially an Iron Man suit now as the explanation for his abilities, then just call him Iron Man, ANOTHER popular and well known hero that fell in battle.

You couldnt tell me with a straight face that Bucky was not the one originally planned to be Cap's successor:

 

[DeafTourette]

You couldnt tell me with a straight face that Bucky was not the one originally planned to be Cap's successor:

He was not ever planned to be Steve's successor

 

[jason10mm]

He was not ever planned to be Steve's successor

I'm not sure ANYONE was planned, didn't Evans just walk away from a truck load of cash?

 

[DeafTourette]

I'm not sure ANYONE was planned, didn't Evans just walk away from a truck load of cash?

He wanted Steve to have a happy life... Or a life, period, with the love of his life. And he did. He got to grow old and he had enough of fighting...

Can't think of a better way to end a character's story.

 

[K' Dash]

He wanted Steve to have a happy life... Or a life, period, with the love of his life. And he did. He got to grow old and he had enough of fighting...

Can't think of a better way to end a character's story.

At the moment it was a good way of retiring the character, but there is no way in hell they won’t bring Evans back, same for any of the original Avengers.

They literally had nothing after endgame, Tom Holland SUCKS as Spiderman, I dislike Shuri, I dislike what they’re doing with Iron Heart, I feel indifference towards Sam, I kinda like Bucky but they won’t give him enough attention.

I dig like Kate + Yelena.

 

[Doom85]

I'm not sure ANYONE was planned, didn't Evans just walk away from a truck load of cash?

Pretty sure IIRC most of the main stars’ contracts were for enough films to last up to Endgame. After that, it was a coin toss. Chris Hemsworth was clearly still on board, as was Mark Ruffalo, Jeremy Renner, and Samuel L. Jackson to some degree in terms of the cast of Avengers 1. Scarlett Johansen to a degree as her character was killed off in Endgame but they did a prequel movie with her.

So they probably were looking into the various successor characters from the comics, even if they weren’t 100% certain until a certain point if they would need them.

 

[DeafTourette]

At the moment it was a good way of retiring the character, but there is no way in hell they won’t bring Evans back, same for any of the original Avengers.

They literally had nothing after endgame, Tom Holland SUCKS as Spiderman, I dislike Shuri, I dislike what they’re doing with Iron Heart, I feel indifference towards Sam, I kinda like Bucky but they won’t give him enough attention.

I dig like Kate + Yelena.

I think they're going to recast Steve and Tony and Thor after Secret Wars.

 

[Revolutionary]

I'm not sure ANYONE was planned, didn't Evans just walk away from a truck load of cash?

Probably wasn't enough for him because there was a HUGE gap in pay between RDJ and the rest of the cast. When it was time to renew their contracts, I wouldn't be surprised if Evans tried to negotiate a higher-paying contract but Disney lowballed it and caused Evans to walk.

...and then a few years later they back up a literal truckload of money onto RDJ's lawn to play Doom because the woman beater they hired to play the next villain couldn't keep his hands to himself.

Isn't Hollywood magical?

 

[Ulysses 31]

 

[sono]

My partner likes these Marvel movies and drags me along to them.

I am thinking she may pass on this one.

 

[GateofD]

Didn't even notice the name change till that video. Its been forever since Eternals and Shang Chi, and we gotten 0 follow up on any of the after credit scenes those two movies had. And the whole Kang thing is dead in the water because of the actor that I don't even care about.

 

[FunkMiller]

I think a 100 million dollar, r-rated Falcon movie would have gone down very well. Never mind, eh?

 

[jason10mm]

They are doing MORE RESHOOTS for this film!!!

CAPTAIN AMERICA: BRAVE NEW WORLD Possibly Undergoing More Changes After Third Round Of Test-Screenings

Marvel Studios reportedly held a third round of test-screenings for Captain America: Brave New World, and received more negative feedback...

comicbookmovie.com

Good grief, this is gonna end up being the most expensive film production in history! Costner with Water World or the guys that did Ishtar are resting easy now

Hopefully its to excise any political woke nonsense but dang, this flick is gonna bomba and then Thunderbolts will eat it as well.

 

[FunkMiller]

Hopefully its to excise any political woke nonsense but dang, this flick is gonna bomba and then Thunderbolts will eat it as well.

Don't get your hopes up on that one. Previous reshoots were done to cut out references to an Israeli Jewish superhero, who people were (of course) offended by. If a movie is reshooting to avoid offending people, I doubt it's going to be something devoid of political correctness when it eventually drops. Just the opposite in fact.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Don't get your hopes up on that one. Previous reshoots were done to cut out references to an Israeli Jewish superhero, who people were (of course) offended by. If a movie is reshooting to avoid offending people, I doubt it's going to be something devoid of political correctness when it eventually drops. Just the opposite in fact.

Yeah Sabra I think her name is. I'm not really upset but it does miff me a bit that they're removing her or cutting out references because she's Israeli.