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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
- Thread starter turmoil
- Start date
It still need to be taken to the Senate and get approved (it will get approved, because PP has the majority). That will happen next Friday so I guess the next day Rajoy will take the control and kick out the current Catalonian gov.
The only way to avoid the 155 is Puigdemont announcing new elections before next Friday.
Because dissolving the current government and illegalizing the independentist parties (it's a very likely scenario) will magically solve the problem. The voters will vaporize and PP and C's will rule. Then the pro-independence are the delusional ones.
#marcaespaña #legalidad #realismo
#marcaespaña #legalidad #realismo
That's not entirely true. Catalonia has not ceased to exist as an Spanish autonomous community. The government of the Generalitat is dissolved. Not the Generalitat itself. The Catalonian Parliament is still in effect until elections are called for.
As for TV3, Rajoy was explicitly asked if the government would take control of the public media of Catalonia and he explicitly answered that they wouldn't. Where are you getting this information from? I can't see it anywhere.
This has not happened and no one has even mentioned it as a possibility. We can also say that the government will make it illegal to speak Catalan while we're fear-mongering, right?
When they actually announce any intention to do it, we'll discuss whether it's moral, legal and justifiable. Until them, speaking of "likely scenarios" is nothing but speculation that doesn't contribute to finding a solution.
They will try to do something like when...
https://twitter.com/jonathanmartinz/status/921330743313178624
So unless they kill us or make independentism illegal, which is within reality, the problem is still there
They basically said to catalans that hey what you voted 2 years ago is worthless. Very democratic indeed.
Not a single comment about having made mistakes from their side either.
It isn't.
It has no legislative power, only consultant. And Rajoy asked for clarity to Puigdemont, but does the same now, we are ruled by and only by Madrid, not by the people from Catalonia voted.
He just didn't make it clear of course
Do you have any source for the bolded?
curi0usBystander
Member
I assume that he's saying that because some of the most radical PP members floated that idea.
I won't say it's a likely scenario, but it could happen. Just think about it, all of this is done to make new elections in Catalonia, what happens if that elections makes the independentist win again, maybe even with more votes?
I don't know if it's a likely scenario or not but it's something that PP is considering (see Albiol words).
But if my understanding is correct this is not something that can happen under 155. And in general I don't think that the government or the parliament can forbid a party.
it's not related to the 155 yeah, it's something that would have to be accorded separately. I think C's is (surprisingly) against so that's something good.
Does the Spanish constitution allow for a party to be forbidden by the Parliament? Because normally that should be something that can be done maybe by a judge in very strict conditions.
It is also something that can be pointless since another party with the same members can be formed very quickly.
Ley de partidos, modify It before the catalan election. Done.
As if legality has stopped PP and Spanish government to do what they want, like is doing with fiscalia, tc, audiencia nacional....
Btw the ones that protect us..
https://twitter.com/alejandrosanmo/status/921463981889421312?s=09
deathkiller
Member
I think that just a restriction to not let politicians to do electoral promises that imply breaking the law would be supported by the international community. Promising changing the law following the current established procedure would still be legal.
If instead on an elections you want to participate in a revolution then that's a different thing.
The president of PP in catalunya specifically said so this last week. To be fair he was quickly discredited by the national management, but the thought is out there...
Except literally nobody voted Puigdemont because he was hand picked by the corrupt former president of Catalunya Artur Mas, who by the way defended police brutality years ago before all of this farce had taken place.
Why Artur Mas is corrupted?
And as the force used by the police back 11M is very critizable, they are very different situations, now it was a referendum voted to be done by the majority of the catalan parliament, the 11M was a civiliant movement that camped for a lot of days in the middle of the city.
Well, factually it would be a restriction on free speech and free association. Obviously the allies of the EU would see it with different glasses than its rivals( Russia), but why give them any argument when the game is unbalanced in your favor? It would be just another non-forced error from Rajoy.
Richard Spencer supports this move, so that tells you how you should feel about it.
https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/921744797945167874
https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/921744797945167874
And Russian trolls supported Catalonia's independence movement, so that should tell you how to fell about it.
Jezbollah
Member
Such logic. Wow.
And_Gignac
Member
Fascism intensifies.
The PSOE is absolute shit for supporting this. They really think this stunt will gain them votes in Spain lol.
The PSOE is absolute shit for supporting this. They really think this stunt will gain them votes in Spain lol.
jakonovski
Member
You're reading and quoting Spencer's tweets. That tells a lot about you.
based on the same flawed logic
forknknife
Banned
It's no stunt. PSOE played a huge part in the 1977 constitution and Spain's transition from a dictatorship and wants to defend it (even though they are open for revising it through legal means). I think that's reasonable from their perspective, is it not?
This "stunt" will also not make them gain votes. If anything they are risking losing a lot of votes in Catalunya because right now everyone defending PSOE is officially a fascist according to many and the pressure on psoe supporters will be huge.
This is a really shitty situation but it's just the consequence of having 2 de-facto legal realities simultaneously clashing against each other.
Everyone is doing the right thing according to what they see as their rule of law. Problem is, one rule is actually real for the whole Spain and EU while the other one is only valid for half of Catalonia.
I think Catalan government should call the elections themselves, stop 155 and make a huge international campaign simply asking for a referendum. That's the only way they're going to be able to get some sympathy from the EU.
Although, in my opinion, the referendum should not be for Catalonia independence but for a new full constitutional reform about the organization of the country. One that starts a new debate and negotiation process between all the regions so that we can reach a new agreement that is fair and satisfies everyone's needs. I see the vasques giving a lot of support to the independist movement. Will they be so kind to reduce their privileges so that they can be shared with Catalonia and the rest of Spain then?
I'm sure that if these huge protests all these years in Catalonia would've been about making Spain a better place via constitutional reforms rather than a purely independist movement then other regions would've joined the movement and it would have a much bigger chance of obtaining results. But right now this is just an incredibly divisive, antagonistic and disruptive movement that I feel is completely reckless in its current stage (Not talking about the massive peaceful demonstrations of course, those were incredible and exemplary!) and that will affect negatively everyone, not only those against independence.
We've been asking for a new deal since estatut. Legally.
We got instead a campaign against it that many in Spain supported, including boycott to Catalan products.
Are you sure that we want to spend years trying, again, to convince Spain to change things?
This Spain that so far seems majoritary, that sings a por ellos?
Really?
Psyrgery ES
Member
Who says we are not against the PPPsoe legacy?
I find it funny how some of you assure that we support PP/PSoe only because we do not want to take part in the independence crash course which could lead to a very troublesome economic outcome.
The Living Tribunal
Member
You dismiss a perfectly valid point with whataboutist rhetoric and you still have the nerve to call his argument limited?
Lol indeed.
And just to make this clear, i absolutely despise PP.
Other regions of Spain have it much worse than Catalonia. Independists complain about having to contribute to the economic progress of the rest of the country (even when that's how pretty much every developed country works) and on top of that your independists leaders have done a damn good job antagonizing the rest of Spain with the borderline fascist rhetoric that fuels the independentist movement.
If you think the only option left is to look for independence, then I'm afraid your efforts are misplaced. Catalonian independence is not going to happen anytime soon, and not without catastrophic consequences for everyone involved.
What Spain can, and should do is revise every autonomous community situation, and find a deal that makes everyone feel included.
Psyrgery ES
Member
The bolded happens in Catalonia as well.
6 out of 42 catalans regions (a 9%) including Barcelona, produces 70% of Catalonia's GDP.
forknknife
Banned
That's why I said 'in my opinion', it's ok if you think otherwise.
But it's just that I hear many times how this is not about nationalism but democracy, that it's not against Spain or the Spanish but against corruption and defending social values. If that's the case then I think the UID was definitely not the most effective way of changing things. Actually it's making things worse for everyone and adding more problems to the already fucked up mix.
Also, do you think that everyone that is asking for the defense of the constitution is the kind of catalanophobe that was cheering "a por ellos"? Surely not.
Having said that, I will always agree that catalanophobia is a very real thing that is going completely unpunished and that just cannot be, makes me sick.
So if most of Spain is against ppsoe and Cs... Why can't barely see them?
Where are they? Silent. It is a good moment to show, to make your voice heard, make Rajoy talk instead of allowing what is happening. You can defend the Constitution and still consider that what the government is doing, what the police did, is wrong.
So now suddenly nobody likes PP but here they are. Abolishing Catalan Parliament, that, btw, was elected by citizens, and at least here we punished CiU , it is not the most voted force and hasn't been for a while. But Spain...
And yes, catalanophobia is very real, and by allowing it, also makes things go to the extreme. Why would we want to have a deal with those who hate us?
A campaign against it that a few in Spain supported, the same for the boycott to Catalan products. The same as the "a por ellos". You cannot base your arguments in anecdotal evidence.
Both the government of Catalonia and the Spanish government were and are corrupted until the bone, you really need to be blind to not see it.
But nothing is black & white. I despise anything coming from PP & PSOE, and today's move marks a very sad day for us, Catalans, but unfortunately this time legality is with Rajoy, something that Puigdemont cannot say at the moment.
I am terribly sad about the whole situation. There's big divide now in the Catalan society, but also in the Spanish one as well, which will result in terribly polarized parliaments for the next elections, where people will totally ignore corruption and vote with rage instead of using their brain. That's going to have terrible consequences for the next decade, at least, if not generation.
User123456
Member
The fact that you actually believe this is enough proof that catalans have, indeed, been systematically indoctrinated with hateful, victimist nationalist rhetoric. Holy shit.
I was born in Barcelona. For 24 years I have lived in Catalonia but I have also lived in Madrid and Granada, visited many other parts of the national territory and have friends from even more autonomous communities. If you think "catalanophobia" extends beyond the circles of ridiculous, extremely minoritary actual fascists then holy shit.
Just check the commentary section of any spanish news paper or twitter, or the same spanish goverment. The catalanophobia is very real, maybe not majority but for sure there's a significant part of the spanish population who really hates us.
And I'm talking about experience, about catalans who has familty at Spain who can't speak about politics because they just despise them for being born here.
By the way, if the spanish goverment takes the control of the catalan one then catalonia is a colony? In that case then we have the rigth of selfdetermination?
Im speechless about what had happen today, I wont say the goverment dont have the right to take control over the mess that Puigdemont has caused, because they have, they could have taken the chance of making politics and talk and solve it but they decided to keep being bullies, its fine, I wont mind that.
What I mind, is the consecuences of this, not only they dissolve the govern and call foe election, that was expected. What isnt expected is that they will dissalow the catalonian parlament to present a candidate, or to vote for anyone, it will be THE SPANISH SENATE (a camera that is basically useless, that the parties use to keep their corrupt members milking the system a bit more, and that is BTW controlled by the PP) the one that decides what candidate is presented and the senate will vote. so yeah, the citizens wont decide anything, the election is a joke, the new president will be someone chosen by the PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos, and is basically a way to try to hide that is a dictatorship thing hide behind 'democratic preservation'. Im so embarrased, looking for jobs outside of spain right now, I dont wont to live in this shit anymore.
Sad day for democracy.
What I mind, is the consecuences of this, not only they dissolve the govern and call foe election, that was expected. What isnt expected is that they will dissalow the catalonian parlament to present a candidate, or to vote for anyone, it will be THE SPANISH SENATE (a camera that is basically useless, that the parties use to keep their corrupt members milking the system a bit more, and that is BTW controlled by the PP) the one that decides what candidate is presented and the senate will vote. so yeah, the citizens wont decide anything, the election is a joke, the new president will be someone chosen by the PP, PSOE and Ciudadanos, and is basically a way to try to hide that is a dictatorship thing hide behind 'democratic preservation'. Im so embarrased, looking for jobs outside of spain right now, I dont wont to live in this shit anymore.
Sad day for democracy.
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