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[Raging Spaniard]

Welcome to the House of Bourbon inbred depression or what happens when for generations your family fucks your relatives over and over.



In short: A fully federal state, who recognizes the plurality of the country and the nations inside it and give more and clearer competencies to the states. The whole fiscality needs to be redone so a fair redistribution of riches are put in place.

The current system is inefficient, because we just saw how easy is to override the region goverments institutions without even parliament approval. Is still highly centralist, that was the idea of it the system though, which is way is failling now.

I know is not enough, this is way more complex for me to fully explain.

Lets say a proper redistribution of riches takes place (Catalonia is not exactly the poorest part of Spain, as you well know, but I digress) and nothing else changes. Would you be happy?

 

[Forward]

.

I really wish that first finger was just slightly crooked, to offset the whole hand looking like a gun.

 

[Theonik]

That's why UE should force a referendum so the goverment can seduce Catalonia with a new model and a proper recognition of it's nationality, instead of letting our central goverment rot the problem until the only ending is a secession.

Much as I support the Catalan cause, the last thing the EU could do is intervene in a matter of a member state's territorial integrity. Such intervention would be catastrophic for the EU and isn't something the EU can deal with to begin with considering the power the members exert over it.

It would set a terrifying precedent for them and pretty much no state wants them to go that route. This is going to be an internal matter of Spain unless it goes really really sour.

I really wish that first finger was just slightly crooked, to offset the whole hand looking like a gun.

The Twitter thinking emoji is too iconic for me to alter more than I already have.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Lets say a proper redistribution of riches takes place (Catalonia is not exactly the poorest part of Spain, as you well know, but I digress) and nothing else changes. Would you be happy?

I wouldn't and now most of Catalonia either I feel.

That would have worked in the past, specially when the nationalist movement was controlled by the Catalan bourgeoisie (Jordi Pujol CiU), not now.

The movement became a lot more transversal, so money is not going to be enough.

In my case, I wouldn't be happy, because I feel the whole system needs a total change.

Much as I support the Catalan cause, the last thing the EU could do is intervene in a matter of a member state's territorial integrity. Such intervention would be catastrophic for the EU and isn't something the EU can deal with to begin with considering the power the members exert over it.

When I mean "force" I mean, a call from Merkel to set up straight our PM. Let's not fool ourselves this didn't happened before (how UE acted with Greece for example).

They could set themselves as a friendly mediator like the Catalonian goverment is basically begging now and I don't how it would look bad in the UE, when the world basically saw how bad things are around here.

 

[KingSnake]

That's why UE should force a referendum so the goverment can seduce Catalonia with a new model and a proper recognition of it's nationality, instead of letting our central goverment rot the problem until the only ending is a secession.

As I edited in the early post, outside economical measure EU doesn't have that many political means to force a local government. Look at Hungary and Poland. If a government is decided to not move a finger they will not move. That in the past the government accepted something it doesn't mean that they couldn't have refused it, but the consequences would have been disastrous for the economy. What would now be the consequences of a refusal from the Spanish government? What were the consequences for the Polish and Hungarian governments?

And shouldn't the solution for what you ask be elections and long term strategies proposed by the Spanish and Catalan parties rather than a one-dimensional referendum?

 

[ClosingADoor]

I mean, they sure did, when they forced us to change our constitution for the first time in just one month and without even consulting the population about it. I'm sure they'll manage.

I don't really see how you want them to force anything. What exactly is against EU laws that Spain would be in violation of that they can force something in the first place?

People like to talk about how the EU is so powerful, but it is when the countries governments can agree. If a government doesn't want to, what are they supposed to do here against their fourth largest economy now the UK is leaving.

I wouldn't and now most of Catalonia either I feel.

That would have worked in the past, specially when the nationalist movement was controlled by the Catalan bourgeoisie (Jordi Pujol CiU), not now.

The movement became a lot more transversal, so money is not going to be enough.

In my case, I wouldn't be happy, because I feel the whole system needs a total change.

What change are we talking here? Because you will have to make some compromises in the end.

 

[ty_hot]

48h are gone, no? Shouldn't they have declared Independence already?

 

[SgtCobra]

It could also make these regions very pro-EU as a result?

That's one possible outcome but that would probably mean that the EU would have to deal with the worsened relationships it would have with the countries that oppose any independence within their borders as a result.
For example, I'm sure the Dutch government would be extremely pissed if Friesland becomes a separate country recognized by the EU, the question is then: how are they gonna deal with that?

But in the end I guess the EU and its member states recognizing the independe of a certain region within their borders goes hand in hand.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

And shouldn't the solution for what you ask be elections and long term strategies proposed by the Spanish and Catalan parties rather than a one-dimensional referendum?

This is exactly what has been going on for years, lots of elections and strategies that lead to nothing. The referendum now is the only solution, a very sizable part of the region won't set for anything less. (Actually a referendum is supported for the major part of the population here, independent or not)

In Catalonia nationalist pro-referendum parties are gonna win for the foreseeable future, all the elections.

Our current PM has the habit of letting problems resolve itself, but this is not one of them, at the contrary, is only going to get worst.(and argueably the only time he acted, he fucked up...)

What change are we talking here? Because you will have to make some compromises in the end.

As I said, federalism with proper recognition of the plurality of our country and it's different nation. A proper federal system would benefit the country on the long run, instead of this badly patched system here.

 

[Nete]

The Attorney General of the State on the "alleged" police brutality: "If we use Generalitat numbers, it only affected a 0.037% of the voters. Only a 0.000042% has a serious injury. They did alright!"

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...uacion-policial-1o-no-afecto-convivencia.html

Wonderful logic. What the flying fuck.

 

[Earthstrike]

Wow, this thread is so biased by opinions from pro-independence people that I'll just leave this article (in English) for now

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html

Also, about "policy brutality"... yeah, there was pretty much none. I guess pro-indepent people think that holding and illegal vote, using old people and kids as human shields and occupaying public places by force is now legal and ethically correct, so much that they expect riot police to pat them in the head and let them go.
If you break the law then deal with the consequences. Law is essential in every democracy as it protects everyone's rights, you can't simply step all over it as you like and then say it was because of democracy. That's bs.

Probably what happened last Sunday won't repeat itself, now no judge and no other police force trusts the mossos so they are gonna be left out of any action that needs to be done, which will allow for a better planning and not having to improvise due to treason and disobedience to the law.

Although the user is banned, there is one logical thing I want to point out. To simultaneously claim that the police were not violent, and that old people and kids were used as human shields makes no sense. You can only have human shields if there is violence. If there is no violence, then they are just people standing at a place.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Given that the vote has occurred and much of the discussion now stems from protests, police mobilization, and the tenuous political survival of both the Catalan and Spanish governments, I think it would be appropriate to make a new thread with an up to date (and, I must stress this, neutral and factual) OP and a title that accurately characterizes the current state of affairs. PM me and I will lock this one when this happens.

Another page has accumulated. Please make a new, up to date OP.

 

[Westbahnhof]

48h are gone, no? Shouldn't they have declared Independence already?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europ...ng&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

Catalan referendum: Region's independence 'in matter of days'

In the BBC interview, Catalonia's President Carles Puigdemont said his government would "act at the end of this week or the beginning of next".
When asked what he would do if the Spanish government were to intervene and take control of Catalonia's government, Mr Puigdemont said it would be "an error which changes everything".

EDIT: Oh, just saw that Stumpakapow asked for a new thread. Sorry for bumping.

 

[His Majesty]

The Attorney General of the State on the "alleged" police brutality: "If we use Generalitat numbers, it only affected a 0.037% of the voters. Only a 0.000042% has a serious injury. They did alright!"

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...uacion-policial-1o-no-afecto-convivencia.html

Wonderful logic. What the flying fuck.

Spanish officials putting that high school course on statistics to good use.

 

[deathkiller]

There's that word again, as if it means shit.

If there's no plausible legal route to independence in the face of an intransigent Spanish government, then whatever path taken towards that end goal is by definition "illegal". On balance, a completely non-violent referendum is probably the least possible morally abrasive way of gaining independence.

It's the Spanish constitution, law and government which is wrong from any sensible point of view when you take off your patriotic / geopolitically tinted glasses.

When the Spanish King is declaring the referendum "illegal", how is this any different morally compared to de facto dictators the world over declaring music, art, expression, protests, a want for democracy or self determination - illegal?

I'm sure that dude who stood in front of a tank in Tiananmen Square was doing "illegal" shit, too.

This is the part where you tell us these situations are completely different. But even if the situations themselves might be significantly different, the argument and logic that you're employing by constantly circling back to "it's illegal" is exactly the same tactic used by the aforementioned henchman like Putin and The Chinese Communist Party to put down protests in their own countries.

Please get a better argument than "it's illegal'.

And when you're casually dismissing state sponsored violence, you might want to just stop and think about that by yourself for a few moments.

I see that the "catalonians weren't allowed to vote" lie is still strong. Sure it is illegal to vote specifically about the independence but this referendum happened because the pro-independence parties didn't got most the votes in Catalonia (put together they got 49% of the votes and a much lower part of the census).

Also if you don't care about legitimacy under the constitution the referendum was only illegal because it was organized with public money. The same thing without public money would had been legal as the 2014 vote showed.

The pro-independence sectors said about this referendum "if we vote we win, if we don't vote we also win" and they were right. It was a masterful PR move that has earned them the legitimacy they lacked on the eyes of the Catalonians, they still lack it on the international front but right now independence is a matter of time.

 

[User123456]

Just read about Carlos III (pictured behind the spanish king in his speech yesterday) and his Real Cedula de 1768 prohibiting education in any language except spanish. Don't we pay him specifically to be a symbol? Because that's nice symbolism right there.

 

[tolkir]

Although the user is banned, there is one logical thing I want to point out. To simultaneously claim that the police were not violent, and that old people and kids were used as human shields makes no sense. You can only have human shields if there is violence. If there is no violence, then they are just people standing at a place.

They knew police is coming and they had to enter to confiscate the ballot boxes, a minimum struggle (even without sticks) is easily deduced if citizens ignore orders of the police.
Some police broke windows to enter because they didn't let them go ahead.

Just read about Carlos III (pictured behind the spanish king in his speech yesterday) and his Real Cedula de 1768 prohibiting education in any language except spanish. Don't we pay him specifically to be a symbol? Because that's nice symbolism right there.

Yes, because we know that a King who speak Catalan is trying to ban the language. That painting will be there from a long time and nobody has paid attention to that.

 

[Walshicus]

Yes, because we know that a King who speak Catalan is trying to ban the language. That painting will be there from a long time and nobody has paid attention to that.

It'd be pretty fucking stupid for the King of the Spanish regime to not realise the symbology though, right? I mean it'd be like making a speech advocating racial harmony in front of a statue of Robert E Lee, or religious tolerance in front of a painting of Oliver Cromwell.

 

[User123456]

Yes, because we know that a King who speak Catalan is trying to ban the language. That painting will be there from a long time and nobody has paid attention to that.

My point is that if he did know the history, then the message it sends is pretty clear. If he didn't know the symbolism, then he doesn't know the history of the country he's the king of, the history of his own family, which doesn't speak highly of the super elite King's education he's supposed to have gone through. And if he knew but simply didn't notice, then he is not paying special attention to detail when he is sending messages. In which case, what the hell do we pay him for?

It seems to me like he's either a bigot, an idiot or incompetent.

EDIT: And just to make it 100% clear, yes, the painting was already there. They did not put it on specifically for this message.

http://www.monarquiaconfidencial.co...ho-Palacio-Zarzuela_ECDIMA20150612_0040_3.jpg

 

[Atolm]

If someone had any doubts that the only meaningful purpose of the Spanish King and his family is to give jobs to the Hola! reporters, today they've been vanished by the King himself.

His first important message to the nation and he completely misses the point, shitting on all of those that tried to vote. It probably was entirely telegraphed by the PP, but whatever.

 

[Ferr986]

If someone had any doubts that the only meaningful purpose of the Spanish King and his family is to give jobs to the Hola! reporters, today they've been vanished by the King himself.

His first important message to the nation and he completely misses the point, shitting on all of those that tried to vote. It probably was entirely telegraphed by the PP, but whatever.

It was, but the point still stands, monarchy is totally useless and just a waste of money.

 

[Pikma]

Guys, someone make a new thread with up to date info, I'd do it but I'm on mobile right now..

 

[Kain]

Damn Bourbon cunt, this guy makes me rage like no other. A king who was appointed to his post (well, his dad the whoremonger thief) by a dictator speaking about democracy, shitting on the voters, no mention to the injured and threatening with suspending the autonomy is the perfect example of what this fucking joke of a country this is. Spain is a shitshow cemented on lies and oppression. Then people wonder why half of Catalonia wants to run away from that. Well, no shit, the question is, who wants to stay???

 

[joanot]

This is heading to the worst case scenario due to sheer negligence resulting from incompetence from both the central & the catalan government.

The catalan parlament will declare the DUI and the central gov. will follow invoking the art. 155... I dont even rule out Rajoy declaring the state of emergency...

We are fucked yet again thanks to our shitty politicians.

 

[Jack Videogames]

I'm glad my mom is visiting us in Ireland now. As an expatriate catalan, I feel this is on the way to escalate to a revolution, thanks to both parties.

In my personal opinion, Madrid should have permitted/not aknowlegded the vote. Experience says the "No" would have won by a narrow-ish margin and Puigdemont would have lost all his political credit. It would have been a small concession leading to a bigger victory.

But history has taught (some of) us that using force on Catalunya is not a good idea if you want to get rid of independentism.

 

[Atolm]

This is heading to the worst case scenario due to sheer negligence resulting from incompetence from both the central & the catalan government.

The catalan parlament will declare the DUI and the central gov. will follow invoking the art. 155... I dont even rule out Rajoy declaring the state of emergency...

We are fucked yet again thanks to our shitty politicians.

As a matter of fact, you can't invoke the 155 without declaring the state of exception and sending the army, according to most jurists.

 

[Jackpot]

So Catalan's leader says he's going to declare independence in a matter of days... but surveys have consistently found a 50/50 split at best amongst Catalonians, and (morality of Spain's actions aside) the vote was clearly disrupted with a 90% in favour result only putting a huge question mark over the referendum's accuracy. Is he just being opportunistic?

 

[veryslowhand]

the army in the streets is exactly what the independentist want.

 

[Westbahnhof]

So Catalan's leader says he's going to declare independence in a matter of days... but surveys have consistently found a 50/50 split at best amongst Catalonians, and (morality of Spain's actions aside) the vote was clearly disrupted with a 90% in favour result only putting a huge question mark over the referendum's accuracy. Is he just being opportunistic?

I mean, sure, the question whether a Catalonian majority wants independence is not answered, but that doesn't stop him from declaring independence, right?

 

[KingSnake]

I mean, sure, the question whether a Catalonian majority wants independence is not answered, but that doesn't stop him from declaring independence, right?

Nobody there seems to be actually interested in democracy unless it serves as an argument why the others are bad.

 

[kami_sama]

The Attorney General of the State on the "alleged" police brutality: "If we use Generalitat numbers, it only affected a 0.037% of the voters. Only a 0.000042% has a serious injury. They did alright!"

http://www.lavanguardia.com/politic...uacion-policial-1o-no-afecto-convivencia.html

Wonderful logic. What the flying fuck.

WTF. It's like saying that the 59 dead out of the ~1 million at Las Vegas is only 0.0059%

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So Catalan's leader says he's going to declare independence in a matter of days... but surveys have consistently found a 50/50 split at best amongst Catalonians, and (morality of Spain's actions aside) the vote was clearly disrupted with a 90% in favour result only putting a huge question mark over the referendum's accuracy. Is he just being opportunistic?

More than oportunistic, is one of the remaining weapons they have. Central goverment, now supported by the king, is not looking for a dialogue way out for this. They want humilliate Catalonia and force them to stay the same.

 

[KingSnake]

More than oportunistic, is one of the remaining weapons they have. Central goverment, now supported by the king, is not looking for a dialogue way out for this. They want humilliate Catalonia and force them to stay the same.

So how do you see this developing if Spain declares state of emergency?

Don't you think that's a bet too risky for the potential gains?

 

[Acidote]

As a matter of fact, you can't invoke the 155 without declaring the state of exception and sending the army, according to most jurists.

the army in the streets is exactly what the independentist want.

They would probably send the Guardia Civil, that pretty much is a police force under the authority of the Ministry of Defense (it is technically a military unit) and the Ministry of the Interior. They would have to declare the state of exception though. And arrest the heads of the DUI (15 to 25 years of jail time).

That is if there's a bit on intelligence left in their brains. Something I doubt after what they've been doing.

 

[Jackpot]

More than oportunistic, is one of the remaining weapons they have. Central goverment, now supported by the king, is not looking for a dialogue way out for this. They want humilliate Catalonia and force them to stay the same.

Even so, it's a "weapon" that comes at the expense of half of Catalan's population. How does that help their cause?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So how do you see this developing if Spain declares state of emergency?

Don't you think that's a bet too risky for the potential gains?

It will be a mess, with it's full effects being unpredictable.

Is a mistake, but backing out now will be a mistake too. Certainly is not a decision I would like to make, and info is that the catalonian goverment is also divided.

 

[forknknife]

I wouldn't and now most of Catalonia either I feel.

That would have worked in the past, specially when the nationalist movement was controlled by the Catalan bourgeoisie (Jordi Pujol CiU), not now.

The movement became a lot more transversal, so money is not going to be enough.

In my case, I wouldn't be happy, because I feel the whole system needs a total change.



When I mean "force" I mean, a call from Merkel to set up straight our PM. Let's not fool ourselves this didn't happened before (how UE acted with Greece for example).

They could set themselves as a friendly mediator like the Catalonian goverment is basically begging now and I don't how it would look bad in the UE, when the world basically saw how bad things are around here.

And do you think that is worth going through a DUI which might spark a civil confrontation which will for sure polarize Spain and Catalan positions even more and generate an animosity that will last decades?

 

[boiled goose]

What?
Maybe you are on a different dimension than me, majority of people in Catalonia aren’t racist.
For example my cousin is married with a camerun men.

Anecdotal evidence to counter anecdotal evidence.

From my experience, all of Europe is incredibly racist while liking to they they aren't. Color of skin affects things like club admission. Ask your relative.

Show me politicians in power, etc. Beforr saying people arent racist. Racism is not just hateful overt racism. It's much more insidious than that.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Even so, it's a "weapon" that comes at the expense of half of Catalan's population. How does that help their cause?

It would movilize the society, which is the only group that is actually fighting and suffering the repression.

A DUI means 155, and 155 will start a massive movilization. As I said a mistake with unpredictible consequences.

But the institutional machinery of repression will happen anyway (catalonian police boss is about to be prosecuted), so might as well declare unilateral independence.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Anecdotal evidence to counter anecdotal evidence.

From my experience, all of Europe is incredibly racist while liking to they they aren't. Color of skin affects things like club admission. Ask your relative.

Show me politicians in power, etc. Beforr saying people arent racist. Racism is not just hateful overt racism. It's much more insidious than that.

Europe has can be racist in much more creative way.

 

[Irminsul]

Anecdotal evidence to counter anecdotal evidence.

From my experience, all of Europe is incredibly racist while liking to they they aren't. Color of skin affects things like club admission. Ask your relative.

You have experience with all of Europe? Wow. Also, your first sentence is rather funny regarding your second one.

 

[Arksy]

Question, what happened to Basque separatism?

 

[Walshicus]

Why do you guys keep going back to the "racism" angle?

Regardless of whether there are systemic issues across the continent, there's no evidence what-so-ever that race or racial relations have anything to do with the situations in Catalonia or Spain right now.

 

[MistakenMobius]

Why do you guys keep going back to the "racism" angle?

Regardless of whether there are systemic issues across the continent, there's no evidence what-so-ever that race or racial relations have anything to do with the situations in Catalonia or Spain right now.

Don't Catalonian se the rest of Spaniard as lazy bum?
Like northern Italy and Flanders in Belgium.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Question, what happened to Basque separatism?

Is there but way more minoritary by the years and years of ETA violence. Also Basque is in a priviliaged position in the current autonomic model.

Don't Catalonian se the rest of Spaniard as lazy bum?
Like northern Italy and Flanders in Belgium.

Some people think that way, but it's not representative of the movement now.

In the same way some spanish ppl think we are the fucking worst.

 

[Arksy]

Is there but way more minoritary by the years and years of ETA violence. Also Basque is in a priviliaged position in the current autonomic model.

I see, would that same settlement not work here? (Catalonia being given more autonomy)

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

I see, would that same settlement not work here? (Catalonia being given more autonomy)

I feel the referendum is inevitable at this point, but more autonomy as an offer would help the result, certainly

 

[deathkiller]

I see, would that same settlement not work here? (Catalonia being given more autonomy)

The Basque government party recently agreed to support the Spanish government budget in exchange of more money, they also want a referendum but currently have a very pragmatic leadership that won't ever push for an unilateral declaration of independence.

Things can change though, the same party previously tried very hard to push for more autonomy only to be shut down by the Spanish Congress.

 

[Atolm]

I see, would that same settlement not work here? (Catalonia being given more autonomy)

Basque Country also has Urkullu as Premier now. While nationalist, I think he's a very cool-headed guy which can demand stuff from Madrid whenever he wants in exchange of stuff like giving his votes in the Parliament to get the yearly budgets approved. I'd say he's pragmatic first, and then a nationalist. He has helped bringing the tensions down, and ETA no longer existing has also helped tremendously, obviously.

For Catalonia, we would need a complete new set of politicians in both sides for such a solution/approach to be feasible.

 

[gutter_trash]

King Felipe and PM Rajoy are too hardline on their rhetoric.

They SHOULD just do like David Cameron did and sit down with Alex Salmond and agree to the terms of the question and the vote when it pertained to Scotland.

Spain's hardline is just simply echoing the darker years of the Absoltionists of the 19th Century and the Fascists of the 20th Century.