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[The Living Tribunal]

Perhaps some did. Perhaps others feared being beaten up or killed by the Spanish regime's thugs.

Polling indicated consistently that an absolute majority of Catalans wanted to vote on the matter, and when offered, 90% voted positively.

Come on now.

 

[Walshicus]

Come on now.

Yeah, because that *didnt* happen.

 

[jakonovski]

According to the official numbers of the Catalonian government before the referendum only a minority of Catalonians (around 41% or so) wanted the break away from Spain. The 49% was on the remain side and wanted none of this.

What's the support for having a referendum? It's not the same, or at least shouldn't be the same as support for a yes vote.

 

[Jackpot]

Perhaps some did. Perhaps others feared being beaten up or killed by the Spanish regime's thugs.

So you admit the poll was disrupted and can't be seen as a valid?

Polling indicated consistently that an absolute majority of Catalans wanted to vote on the matter, and when offered, 90% voted positively.

How can you accept polling on having a referendum as gospel (and they didn't offer one as it was illegitimate), yet deny polling that showed only 40% of people would vote in favour of independence? You don't see how laughably spurious it comes off as?

 

[Theonik]

So you admit the poll was disrupted and can't be seen as a valid?



How can you accept polling on having a referendum as gospel (and they didn't offer one as it was illegitimate), yet deny polling that showed only 40% of people would vote in favour of independence? You don't see how laughably spurious it comes off as?

Do elections normally require that 50% of the total electorate vote for the government?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

What's the support for having a referendum? It's not the same, or at least shouldn't be the same as support for a yes vote.

80%

 

[gutter_trash]

According to the official numbers of the Catalonian government before the referendum only a minority of Catalonians (around 41% or so) wanted the break away from Spain. The 49% was on the remain side and wanted none of this.

Rajoy is biggest dumbass in politics.

All he had to do is do like what David Cameron did, and negotiate with Catalonia for the procedings just like the UK did with Scotland. Knowingly that Scotland would lose in an oifficially binding Referndum.

seeing these numbers, it would have been the same for Catalonia. the NO would have won.

Rajoy, instead has excerbated the sitation. Made it worse and given more reasons for the YES side to gain sympathy.

Rajoy's actions form Sunday does the OPPOSITE if his desired outcome.

now post-Sunday, sympathy for the YES side has gained more ground all because Rajoy has gone hardline proving the YES side right.

all this could have been avoided if only Rajoy took the David Cameron route.

 

[Jackpot]

Do elections normally require that 50% of the total electorate vote for the government?

I refer you to my previous answer:

Because a vote that only one side participates in is worthless. You do realise a vote's purpose is to try and gain an accurate reflection of the will of the people, right? Context matters.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=250907066&postcount=119

You'd have to bury your head in the sand to ignore the events surrounding the referendum.

Seriously, how do you reconcile 90% in favour when it was polling at 41% before? Do you genuinely believe the referendum's result was accurate?

 

[eyeball_kid]

I'm fairly ignorant on the situation, but why don't they use their collective energy and political power to protest for stronger protections of their language and culture? Leaving Spain seems like the nuclear option, with a lot of negative knock-on effects. Reminds me of the French-Canadian separatists.

 

[jakonovski]

The obvious answer to "surely the people support/don't support this big political thing" is "find out by having a (proper) referendum".

 

[Night Terror]

I'm fairly ignorant on the situation, but why don't they use their collective energy and political power to protest for stronger protections of their language and culture? Leaving Spain seems like the nuclear option, with a lot of negative knock-on effects. Reminds me of the French-Canadian separatists.

Oh they have. I mean, the real issue is the PP. Search for that one time Wert said they needed to make catalan children more spanish.

 

[gutter_trash]

The difference with Quebec is that that they had two legal Referendums handled in peace.

Scotland had a legal Referendum handled in peace.

Madrid and Barcelona are both politically stubborn and dumb

 

[Par Score]

Spain has lost all moral right to its continued governance of Catalunya. The behaviour of the Spanish Nationalists, Rajoy, The Government, The King and The Police have stripped Spain of all legitimacy in Catalunya.

The only sensible step forward is the swift agreement to a legal and binding referendum, to be held as soon as practicable and free from the sort of intimidation and brutality shown 3 days ago.

In lieu of this, a unilateral declaration of Catalan Independence, with all the terror and joy that it may bring, is inevitable.

Do elections normally require that 50% of the total electorate vote for the government?

Along these lines, Catalan Independence now has more of a mandate than the current UK Government.

(92% of 43% > 37% of 69%)

 

[Showaddy]

The difference with Quebec is that that they had two legal Referendums handled in peace.

Scotland had a legal Referendum handled in peace.

Madrid and Barcelona are both politically stubborn and dumb

Yeah the government should have just let people vote and declared it non-binding and illegal if Yes won. All they achieved with the violence was to stop the silent majority voting and push more moderates towards independence.

 

[gutter_trash]

Yeah the government should have just let people vote and declared it non-binding and illegal if Yes won. All they achieved with the violence was to stop the silent majority voting and push more moderates towards independence.

I agree that the Referendum is illegal but there was no need for Rajoy to legitimize it with police violence.

Let them do their moke vote and just strike it down at the courts

 

[deathkiller]

The obvious answer to "surely the people support/don't support this big political thing" is "find out by having a (proper) referendum".

Or having elections, in the last regional elections the pro-independence parties said "this elections are a referendum and if you vote us we will declare the independence", they got 49% of the votes.

 

[tolkir]

Rajoy is biggest dumbass in politics.

All he had to do is do like what David Cameron did, and negotiate with Catalonia for the procedings just like the UK did with Scotland. Knowingly that Scotland would lose in an oifficially binding Referndum.

seeing these numbers, it would have been the same for Catalonia. the NO would have won.

Rajoy, instead has excerbated the sitation. Made it worse and given more reasons for the YES side to gain sympathy.

Rajoy's actions form Sunday does the OPPOSITE if his desired outcome.

now post-Sunday, sympathy for the YES side has gained more ground all because Rajoy has gone hardline proving the YES side right.

all this could have been avoided if only Rajoy took the David Cameron route.

And later David Cameron route was fucked up with Brexit vote. Allow a referendum vote doesn't mean you are going to win.
Feelings change on few months quickly. Propaganda expands nowadays very fast with social networks and messaging services on smartphones.

 

[gutter_trash]

And later David Cameron route was fucked up with Brexit vote. Allow a referendum vote doesn't mean you are going to win.
Feelings change on few months quickly. Propaganda expands nowadays very fast with social networks and messaging services on smartphones.

Not talking about Brexit.

Was talking about Scotland

 

[eyeball_kid]

Oh they have. I mean, the real issue is the PP. Search for that one time Wert said they needed to make catalan children more spanish.

I see. Yeah that reminds me of the U.S. and Canadian forced indoctrination of Native American children.

The Spanish government has really handled this in the worst way possible. Police brutality over a vote that wasn't even legal in the first place. If anything they've just legitimized the movement more.

 

[Javier23]

Oh they have. I mean, the real issue is the PP. Search for that one time Wert said they needed to make catalan children more spanish.

That brings memories. I don't miss that dude.

 

[Johnny M]

If Catalonia's total state liabilities are only 70bn Euro they are absolutely fine. Catalonia has a nominal GDP of $255.204bn which puts their debt per GDP at under 50% which is considerably lower than that of Spain which has a debt to GDP of almost 100%. An independent Catalan republic could be far more sustainable financially than Spain is.
But all of that is largely theoretical anyway the question is how much money Catalonia would need for independence, the size of the micro and macroeconomic impact of the split, whether they default on their share of the Spanish debt etc etc.

Doesn't work like that, a good chunk of that GDP comes from foreign business located in Barcelona, those will move after a secession to operate in the rest of Spain. Also many Spanish/Catalan business such as Seat, Gas Natural, Caixabank, Sabadell have their main source of income in the rest of Spain, not in Catalonia, and those will move as well. So in the end Catalonia's GDP is not gonna be the same as before. And this is just a simplistic lecture, just wait to see the foreing investment in Catalonia....

Sad times from everyone.

 

[jakonovski]

Or having elections, in the last regional elections the pro-independence parties said "this elections are a referendum and if you vote us we will declare the independence", they got 49% of the votes.

If it's a real multiparty system then that pretty much gives the mandate IMO.

 

[gutter_trash]

If it's a real multiparty system then that pretty much gives the mandate IMO.

that is the wrong way to conduct democracy when it pertains to Referendums.

Clarity is paramount. It must be a clear question (without euphemisms) and done legitematelty

if you start moving the goal posts with bullshit like "well you voted for a nationalist-independentisy party so that automatically means..."

nope nope nope. a parliamentary election is not a Referendum

 

[deathkiller]

If it's a real multiparty system then that pretty much gives the mandate IMO.

Yes but is not practical to found a new country with the support of 49% of the population (or the 51% for that matter) so they decided to work on preparing the basics for the new state and try to gain more support using a referendum instead. My point is that we know what the Catalonians support (or supported as 2015) not by a poll or some questionable sided referendum but by an actual legitimate free vote. The referendum was not needed to find out this.

that is the wrong way to conduct democracy when it pertains to Referendums.

Clarity is paramount. It must be a clear question (without euphemisms) and done legitematelty

if you start moving the goal posts with bullshit like "well you voted for a nationalist-independentisy party so that automatically means..."

nope nope nope. a parliamentary election is not a Referendum

The coalition was called "together for Yes(to independence)" and had vowed to declare the independence if they won so it was clear cut what you meant by voting for them. The elections were called early specifically as a vote regarding the independence issue.

 

[TimmmV]

Do elections normally require that 50% of the total electorate vote for the government?

No, but elections and referendums on significant constitutional change are totally different things - and (in the UK at least) there have been referendums where a minimum turnout was specified beforehand for the result to be recognised. Suggesting that a referendum should have a certain % of turnout and/or winning margin is perfectly legitimate (and I would argue logical too)

 

[gutter_trash]

Yes but is not practical to found a new country with the support of 49% of the population (or the 51% for that matter) so they decided to work on preparing the basics for the new state and try to gain more support using a referendum instead. My point is that we know what the Catalonians support (or supported as 2015) not by a poll or some questionable sided referendum but by an actual legitimate free vote. The referendum was not needed to find out this.

The coalition was called "together for Yes(to independence)" and had vowed to declare the independence if they won so it was clear cut what you meant by voting for them. The elections were called early specifically as a vote regarding the independence issue.

Nope, a legislative Election is not a Referendum no matter the Party.
A person may vote for a Party to apply pressure politically but not necessarily want Independence.

Clarity is paramount.

 

[jakonovski]

that is the wrong way to conduct democracy when it pertains to Referendums.

Clarity is paramount. It must be a clear question (without euphemisms) and done legitematelty

if you start moving the goal posts with bullshit like "well you voted for a nationalist-independentisy party so that automatically means..."

nope nope nope. a parliamentary election is not a Referendum

I agree, definitely should be mandate to do a referendum because parliamentary elections cannot be single issue.

 

[deathkiller]

Nope, a legislative Election is not a Referendum no matter the Party.
A person may vote for a Party to apply pressure politically but not necessarily want Independence.

Clarity is paramount.

It was not a Party it as a coalition with zero intentions of governing, they actually lost support compared to before forming the independence coalition. It was a plebiscite for them. Nobody at all had an unclear idea of what voting for them meant.

 

[User123456]

It was not a Party it as a coalition with zero intentions of governing, they actually lost support compared to before forming the independence coalition. It was a plebiscite for them. Nobody at all had an unclear idea of what voting for them meant.

Pretty much. While technically not the same as a referendum for independence, that's what the election was framed as by the media both before and after it took place, and also how literally anyone you asked on the street or social media understood it. Even the parties in question interpreted it in that way after the results came in.

 

[BenderGZ]

Is called universal census. which was activated 30 minutes before the voting begins, which admitedly was a genious move that made all the police plan irrelevant.

Democracy intensifies. Or multiplies...

Also...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_EtkuKmEU

 

[forknknife]

Then you aren't paying any attention at all.

Which is par with the course in this whole mess.

The biggest problem is not even the referendum, but the fact that the Catalonian government was determined to launch an unilateral declaration of independence even before the referendum. To this point they engineered an spurious vote rife with irregularities in which the separatist side could only succeed.

Even if you exclude the Spanish Constitution and the legal argument the entire process is is a complete disaster. The Catalonian government went all the way to organise it, even if that meant breaking its own rules. Which it did plenty of times.

The usual retort is to claim that Rajoy could have negotiated a proper referendum and avoid this mess. That's a logical trap. It's simply not true. Article 2 of the Constitution makes that impossible. For that the current Spanish government, which doesn't even have the numbers to pass a new budget by itself, let alone pass critical legislation (or the will to entertain the separatist side), would have needed to rebuild the Constitution so Spain would have to aknowledge that its regions can simply break away after a vote. That's basically a non starter, not just for Spain, but basically for any country. And the separatist side knew it, so knowing that Rajoy would act like the malignant fool that he is, hastened a referendum, fingers crossed for a confrontation. At the end of the day, this is about a local government declaring itself in rebellion. No country is ever going to agree to that.

And it's not like Catalonian government is acting in representation of the majority of the population anyway.



According to the official numbers of the Catalonian government before the referendum only a minority of Catalonians (around 41% or so) wanted the break away from Spain. The 49% was on the remain side and wanted none of this.

Despite this, the Catalonian government decided to rally the masses, claiming that they were being silenced and hastened a referendum that was anything but democratic. Puigdemont and his allies made a mockery of the requirement of neutrality by continously campaigning for the "yes" side, used the resources of the government towards the same aims and mounted a process enterely ran by the separatist side. There were no guarantees of any kind, next to no supervision and no proper census. The census, as a matter of fact, is my favourite bit regarding this event, as the Catalonian government declared a "universal census". This means that anybody could vote anywhere. Thus the hilarity:


That table comes from a partial source so I had to check if it was true. As far as I've seen, it is. A number of small towns in inner Catalonia, where the separatist movement is the strongest, had more people voting for independence than their actual population, let alone the voting census. Espinelves is particularly brazen, as the "yes" campaign obtained 527 votes in a small town of 156.

The numbers for each locality can be checked using the official results at La Vanguardia and the site of the institute of statistics of Catalonia.

Even if we are to accept the explanation of those tiny towns in profoundly pro-independence regions receiving such an aberrant amount of "yes" votes because of the police closing down a number of polling stations elsewhere, it goes on to show that the numbers cannot be trusted at all. As a matter of fact, the Catalonian government has yet to provide the full results three days after proclaiming the victory of the separatist side. They are using percentages and color bars instead now. Because that is something acceptable and not odd at all.

Yet here we have the separatist-led Catalonian government, using a referendum with no requirement for a minimum turnout yet binding with a simple majority, rife with damning irregularities, no guarantees, no neutrality, conducted in a state bordering on civil unrest (which can be partly blamed on Rajoy, no doubt about that) and violating the terms of the Venice Commission to proclaim what will probably be an unilateral declaration of independence. That is some nation building right there.

I mean, Rajoy should be in jail. He's been my most despised acting politician since the 11-M and I've actually made threads about it, but acting like the Catalonian government is being treated unfairly here or that there are no arguments against the referendum outside of the legalese regarding the Spanish Constitution... well... it's brazen, to say the least.





This is a sectarian confrontation spurred by two governments (Barcelona and Madrid) with barely enough political support to stay afloat, yet acting like they are absolute rulers with no regard towards half (and more) of their respective populations. Both Rajoy and Puigdemont need to go so we can right the situation.




The problem here is that Rajoy believes that this is going to reinforce his pathetic popularity in the rest of Spain (it won't).

This post right here is the truth in my opinion, I agree 100%.

The only thing is that, even though I agree that both Rajoy and Puigdemont must go, the people will always be there and half of Catalonia just can't stand being part of Spain anymore and they are willing to go through the DUI and whatever that may bring to make that happen. What can you do with that? 155 would be a disaster in my opinion, it would be worse for the international public opinion of Spain than the police aggressions because this time they might be military aggressions.

I don't know. Even though I really think the independists are in the wrong here I don't see a good way out of this without a referendum.

 

[megateto]

half of Catalonia just can't stand being part of Spain anymore and they are willing to go through the DUI and whatever that may bring to make that happen.

Maybe if they saw some loving from Madrid things would change. I can perfectly see why some Catalans are so pissed with everything "Madrid" and Rajoy's recent movements have only made things worse.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Uh, so I was supposed to go to Barcelona in early November... Still safe to go?

 

[KingSnake]

Let's see what the Venice Commission (arguably the highest European authority in constitutional matters) has to say about referendum in their code of good practices:

III. Specific rules
1. The rule of law
The use of referendums must comply with the legal system as a whole, and especially the procedural rules. In particular, referendums cannot be held if the Constitution or a statute in conformity with the Constitution does not provide for them, for example where the text submitted to a referendum is a matter for Parliament’s exclusive jurisdiction.

Effects of referendums
a. The effects of legally binding or consultative referendums must be clearly specified in the Constitution or by law.
b. Referendums on questions of principle or other generally-worded proposals should preferably not be binding. If they are binding, the subsequent procedure should be laid down in specific rules.

A referendum is not a poll. The question, the answer and the consequences must be clear and complying with the law.

What the Catalan Government did was a farce. A farce with potential dramatic consequences.

And if the constitution doesn't allow for it, the first step is to change the said constitution.

 

[Elfotografoalocado]

Uh, so I was supposed to go to Barcelona in early November... Still safe to go?

If our government doesn't blow it more, it should be fine. Rajoy has decided not to call an extraordinary Parliament meeting which means it could take days before it is discussed in a plenary session. This is presumably being done to avoid criticism or a push to negotiation. Right now the most worrying possibility is the Catalonian Government unilaterally declaring independence. I'm afraid Rajoy wants this to happen, which is why he's delaying any discussion or calls to negotiation.
We must remember, Rajoy has refused to any talks with the Catalonian government for years now.

 

[malingenie]

Uh, so I was supposed to go to Barcelona in early November... Still safe to go?

I'm going in 4 days. 😅

 

[Dragner]

independently of you being against or not, this kind of stuff cannot be published

Then it goes thru goebbels decalogue comparing it with his actions. Asociating Nazism with politicals another way of creating xenophobic people. You can expect this crap on internet forums by some goombas not on a national newspaper.

Just behind you can see a hot photo book of a porn actress that supports a german soccer team, nice periodistic stuff right there.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Democracy intensifies. Or multiplies...

Also...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_EtkuKmEU

Look, I'm not validating the referendum, just saying that some places having more votes that population is normal. Ppl had their voting places closed or unavalaible and had to travel to vote, in other places the queues were so long that people went to less poblated areas to vote.

 

[Theonik]

No, but elections and referendums on significant constitutional change are totally different things - and (in the UK at least) there have been referendums where a minimum turnout was specified beforehand for the result to be recognised. Suggesting that a referendum should have a certain % of turnout and/or winning margin is perfectly legitimate (and I would argue logical too)

Sure, and there was rules stipulated. Those didn't include a supermajority or turnout requirements. Those are also quite rare in plebiscites, and hell look at the Brexit referendum to see how much of a shitshow that can be but it is what it is.

Doesn't work like that, a good chunk of that GDP comes from foreign business located in Barcelona, those will move after a secession to operate in the rest of Spain. Also many Spanish/Catalan business such as Seat, Gas Natural, Caixabank, Sabadell have their main source of income in the rest of Spain, not in Catalonia, and those will move as well. So in the end Catalonia's GDP is not gonna be the same as before. And this is just a simplistic lecture, just wait to see the foreing investment in Catalonia....

Sad times from everyone.

I have addressed all of those points above. I don't disagree, I was addressing the debt portion of the equation. The rest is anyone's guess. In the first place businesses can't leave overnight so Catalonia can use that time to get their statehood in order. Who knows.

Catalonia will almost assuredly take a financial hit. But some things are more important than money.

Along these lines, Catalan Independence now has more of a mandate than the current UK Government.

(92% of 43% > 37% of 69%)

Moreover, for the result to have been anything but a victory for the Catalan nationalists, it would require a turnout in excess of 86% with a vote for no of 93% or more. The last Catalan election had a turnout of 75%. It is very hard to claim the result could have been a win for the Royalists given the results on display here.

 

[starblue]

Democracy intensifies. Or multiplies...

Also...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC_EtkuKmEU

Yeah sure..

https://twitter.com/orioldebalanzo/status/914526879582998528

 

[KingSnake]

Yeah sure..

https://twitter.com/orioldebalanzo/status/914526879582998528

You realise that these are both anecdotal evidences that hold practically the same value. Just that one of them shouldn't happen in any voting station in a properly ran voting system.

 

[BenderGZ]

Look, I'm not validating the referendum, just saying that some places having more votes that population is normal. Ppl had their voting places closed or unavalaible and had to travel to vote, in other places the queues were so long that people went to less poblated areas to vote.

Yeah, and at the same time allowed them to vote in as many places and as many times as they wished. That's why it wasn't a smart move, let alone a genius move. It turned the "anything goes" mode on

 

[Javier23]

It is very hard to claim the result could have been a win for the Royalists given the results on display here.

???

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Yeah, and at the same time allowed them to vote in as many places and as many times as they wished. That's why it wasn't a smart move, let alone a genius move. It turned the "anything goes" mode on

I mean, the voting wouldn't happened and the central goverment would have managed to not let people vote, which was the intention of sending 12k police officers to hit people to not allow it. A lot of centers still could have use the validation system, so it wasn't a full "anything goes".

The referendum it lacked the proper mechanism to make it valid, dosn't mean all 2,2 million votes were fake. A lot of people voted, we all saw the images and I was there to see it.

I still mantain that the results of the referendum are meaningless, it was an amazing, massive social movement.

 

[starblue]

You realise that these are both anecdotal evidences that hold practically the same value. Just that one of them shouldn't happen in any voting station in a properly ran voting system.

I agree with you that this not the way to do it, but, it was the only way... i'll explain you how it worked:

Police turned down the application to do the vote in some hours, many places had to do manual votes during some periods, in that moment...guys like the one in that photo could vote in different places, but...when the vote count started they had to introduce the data in the application.

When the application detects that the same DNI (id) voted multiple times, that urn became invalidated, and all the votes coming from that urn didn't count. So, people like that only fucked up thousands of votes.

 

[Theonik]

???

The Kingdom of Spain. The Republic of Catalonia.
I wanted to say Loyalists initially but the king of Spain's latest remarks tempt me so. Please understand.

 

[forknknife]

Sorry because it's in Spanish only but this interview is the best I've read yet from the Catalan independist side of things. Many good arguments in there although, in the end, I still don't think a UDI is a good idea at all.

http://ctxt.es/es/20171004/Politica/15325/

 

[JeffZero]

Many years ago I began developing a fictional country called Catal in a fictional game I've played since adolescence called Hollow. A lot of worldbuilding has gone into it and multiple players play Catalian characters right now. I've been told by numerous people that this whole saga has them thinking of my silly fictional country first and foremost due to the naming similarities. It's been... it's been weird.

Back in reality: this whole situation's fucked. Spain fucked up. Big time. But I don't see this nationalistic streak ending especially well, either. This region's bankrupt. Ugh, what a time to be alive. My best hopes for all involved.

 

[RalchAC]

The Kingdom of Spain. The Republic of Catalonia.
I wanted to say Loyalists initially but the king of Spain's latest remarks tempt me so. Please understand.

Come on. The King doesn't have any real power. He is bound to accept whatever the government does and stand on the line even if he doesn't agree with him.

He just can't take an stance of his own that could crash with the authority of the government. Because then he'd get a lot of shit for extra limiting his authority.

He is just there mainly for diplomatic purposes. He is a rather well prepared person for fulfilling his role. And calling out the government isn't one of those things. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really remember the King (neither the current nor the previous one) ever calling out the national government when they made a mistake. And there have been quite a few different presidents and a lot of dumb decisions done since 1977.

I don't consider myself a royalist, I wouldn't mind if I woke up tomorrow and Spain was a Republic. But I feel he's just stood on the line like the person in his position has been doing for the past 42 years.

 

[TimmmV]

Sure, and there was rules stipulated. Those didn't include a supermajority or turnout requirements. Those are also quite rare in plebiscites, and hell look at the Brexit referendum to see how much of a shitshow that can be but it is what it is.

Well yeah, but that's because it was done unilaterally by Catalonia, obviously they are going to apply the conditions that best give them the chance to declare independence. I would imagine that leave winning by 1 vote would be all it takes for them to say its legit. So I wouldn't really give much weight to the stipulated rules (especially considering it seems that people could vote multiple times!)

And don't remind me about Brexit! So many things about that referendum were handled absolutely awfully