Lmao, I'm sure that every non-separatist is so out of unwavering loyalty to the royal crown. Come on, give me a break. Our king is little more than a mouthpiece, the idle embodiment of a symbol.
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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
- Thread starter turmoil
- Start date
Business
Member
Great interview.
Theonik
Member
I mean, you had Farage call for a 60:40 requirement when he thought he'd lose and then talk about the will of the people the morning after. That's always how it goes. It doesn't make the result any less valid though. It's just something to keep in mind I suppose. Things could have gone very differently here if the Spanish authorities didn't think rebellion busting with batons was the right path but here we are.
I'm glad you found that amusing.
Since a gazillion people quoted me, I should have mentioned more clearly that I didn't think what I was posting was feasible (at least, not in the current context) - I was saying I thought it was ideal (or at least, my personal ideal, since I am for a Europe of regions).
Clearly, in today's world, the EU would never agree to such a thing. But I do think they need to be involved in the dialogue between the central Spanish government and the regional Catalonian government.
Do you mean that Catalans are not Spanish citizens? Or that the Spanish government wouldn't deploy troops in Catalonia?
I'm visiting right now till the 25th.
”The political situation is a pain in the neck for these banks," Cesar Molinas, founder of Multa Paucis, an investment consultancy firm, said in an interview. ”They don't want clients in Madrid to see them as Catalan banks, nor clients in Barcelona to see them as Spanish banks. They're treading on thin ice."
CaixaBank and Banco Sabadell shares both fell about 5 percent on Wednesday in the biggest declines in more than a year. Managers at CaixaBank private banking in Madrid -- echoing de Guindos's attempts at reassurance -- have been proactively calling customers to discuss the situation in Catalonia and dispel concerns, according to one private-banking client, who asked not to be identified discussing the matter.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...torn-on-who-to-bank-with-amid-secession-fears
deathkiller
Member
At the current rate we will see the return of Anarchism to Catalonia on Monday. This is a video about the last time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufTFRGPrCM
It's authoritarian, if a person or a party is above the law.
jakonovski
Member
Spanish law does not prescribe police to brutalize the citizens. The police and the people who gave them orders committed a gross abuse of power and should face consequences for it. Some of those people should be getting prison sentences.
In comparison, the Catalan government should face a potential fine for holding a referendum out of order.
His Majesty
Banned
The Flemish Parliament has unanimously approved a resolution which condemns the disproportionate violence from the Spanish government.
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2017/10/04/vlaams-parlement-keurt-catalonie-resolutie-unaniem-goed/
It was signed by all parties, not just the separatist ones.
https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2017/10/04/vlaams-parlement-keurt-catalonie-resolutie-unaniem-goed/
It was signed by all parties, not just the separatist ones.
Theonik
Member
No, being authoritarian is strictly about what the law is...
EVERY SINGLE LEGAL SYSTEM IN THE HISTORY OF HUMANITY has people above the law by its definition and when that is not strictly the case, it pertains to its institutions. After all a cornerstone of a modern state is its exclusivity to the use of violence. It is why Sovereign Immunity, is a principle of international law. Because it's silly to expect the law to obey the law when it writes the law. In states with a written constitution part of the aim is to restrict the authority of the sovereign government for this purpose, to prevent them from taking certain legal actions thought to be too authoritarian or harmful to the state.
Law enforcement is probably the classic example here as their nature as enforcement of the law grants them power above the law and there is seldom any higher de-facto authority to bind them.
As policemen you can use violence if necessary to stop a crime and this is what happend. What would you do, if a crowd of 30 people oppose you and don't back up after warning them? Also with each minute they grow in number and you're only advantage are non-lethal weapons. Violence is a tool of the police (it should just be the last one).
There were properly some cases, where the police went overboard and actually use to much violence against some of those illegal voters (which is a crime). But the police using violence itself, isn't police brutality.
Theonik
Member
There is nothing to make these voters breaking the law. Not even the shitshow that Spain is at the moment, makes voting illegal and the fact that you a) think that's the case and b) think that would be OK frankly says more things about you than of those 'criminals'. The people conducting the vote and the Catalan government were in violation of Spanish law. But the same comment applies.
Also did you just inadvertently claim the police is above the law?
jakonovski
Member
It depends on the crime as you well know. You don't use a level of force that injures hundreds to stop something as peaceful as voting out of order. It is greatly disproportionate and thus an abuse of power.
Of course, you may say that you wish for a society where such violence is appropriate and encouraged. In that case I can only say that I want to be as far away from that society as possible.
And? Those are exceptions given by the law, so that people can govern a state and enforce the law. Yes, it's a paradox, but it's part of the law! There is a difference between stying above the law and given special powers by the law.
In a authoritarian ruling, it would be the person or party, who would give out those exceptions, so they can go around enforcing their laws.
Theonik
Member
In a totalitarian regime the law is concentrated on one person but a Totalitarian system is not inherently an Authoritarian one and similarly a Liberal system can be Authoritarian if its laws are. Not sure where the confusion is. Of course, Totalitarian regimes usually descent to Authoritarianism as to preserve themselves. Liberal regimes can also degenerate by losing their liberal values too in much the same way.
What you are saying is total nonsense too because most legal systems at least aim for an illusion of legality in police actions /because/ it's very difficult to justify the excessive use of force of the police morally. It is just the inherent corruption of authority that makes it otherwise.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The 12K cops were there to stop the voting, not the money.
By Spanisch law they broke the law, that is why the police was sent out. You can hate the law, but the police just did there job (some got properly overboard, i don't think, that just innocent people work for them ...). Hate the game and the players.
No, the police good permission by the law to use violence if necessary to enforce the law. That's there job and that why they get combat-training and weapons. Do you think, they are for show?
Welcome to the desert of the real. Violence is part of any society right now, unless you life in a dream world. It's fantastic, that we don't need much of it anymore and we don't see it much in the open (at least for us lucky ones), but it's still a part of law enforcement and protecting boarders of society. It's naive to think otherwise ...
And taking part of an illegal organized illegal activity.
Ok can be that the language barrier fucks over me here by the exact terms.
Theonik
Member
The crime was not the voting. The Catalan authorities were supposedly prosecuted for embezzlement. The people getting beat up in the streets would probably go for obstruction of justice or similar acts, but why do you think most of the voters are not brought upon with charges? If there was a crime being committed then one as dedicated to the law as yourslef should surely think that this should be settled in the courts.
That's a stretch. It wouldn't stand in court.
Maximum you could say that the people who tried to stop police from confiscating ballots can be accused of obstructing justice.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I agree that the Catalan referendum was illegal - but what is illegal is not the same as what is illegitimate. It is a fundamental right, recognised in international law and taken as the starting point of the organisation of the modern world order, that peoples have the right to self-determination. In the absence of the Spain state organising a referendum, the Catalan regional government's referendum offers the most legitimate means of consulting the people possible. If Spain does not offer something of greater legitimacy, then the Catalan state has every right to secede - there is no 'more legitimate' step they can take; they have done the best they can, and it is not right that Spain's intransigence can stall the process in perpetuity.
As I've said before: I'm not a nationalist. But anyone examining this situation needs to ask themselves: in the absence of Spain granting any concessions towards a proper referendum, what more can the Catalan regional government do? And if the Catalan regional government cannot possibly do any more than what it has, why is it not justified in acting?
As I've said before: I'm not a nationalist. But anyone examining this situation needs to ask themselves: in the absence of Spain granting any concessions towards a proper referendum, what more can the Catalan regional government do? And if the Catalan regional government cannot possibly do any more than what it has, why is it not justified in acting?
What I don't understand is how they think this is gonna work out for them if they brute force the independency. Their biggest exports are in the chemical and automitive sector and those are mostly being exported to other EU countries. Spain will do everything to ensure that doing business as usual becomes extremely difficult for Catalonia.
I don't know why but perpahs this could open the door for more referendums across Europe I guess? I highly doubt the EU and it's member states are looking forward to some European Independence winter or something like that, and Spain will be held accountable.
Business
Member
That's true but then you wonder why people wants out. Pure fraternity.
The reason for no referendum has nothing to do with Europe and everything to do with Spain denying Catalonia is even a nation with the right of self determination. Everything to do with how the democratic transition was done, the creation of the comunidades autonomas and the concept of regions, the so called ‘cafe para todos' and the rethoric that has been slowly installed in Spain throughout the years that Catalonia or the Basque Country are regions like any other comunidad autonoma within Spain, and consequently any self determination claims are absurd, illegitimate and unlawful.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
It would be hard, but dependency goes both ways,Barcelona port is the second biggest port in Spain.
It would take years, but I'm sure in the end Cat will manage to stand on his own
MistakenMobius
Member
Yeah if this happens, you can expect all nationalist secessionist movement that are often alt-right to be in full swing and putin will be happpy to finance them.
All thread about Catalonia here have Vlaams Belang ad, pretty clear who it's benefiting to
ClosingADoor
Member
Are there any plans from the Catalonia government about how they will manage after independence? How it will impact the economy, what will happen with pensions, taxes, debt, exports, imports, maybe even food supply, gas, electricity, etc, etc.
curi0usBystander
Member
In line with that it seems that sabadell might move it's registred office outside of Catalonia this afternoon.
http://www.eleconomista.es/banca-fi...cambio-de-domicilio-social-de-la-entidad.html
(I don't have an english source)
What goods are transported through that port and where from and where to? Hard border with Spain and tariffs with EU will take its toll (pun intended) on that.
His Majesty
Banned
I can imagine all independence movements across Europe, whether they are right-wing or left-wing in nature, will benefit from a succesful declaration of independence in Catalonia.
I'm not sure if most are right-wing as you say. Catalonia, Basque Country, Scotland and Sardinia certainly aren't.
deathkiller
Member
There is no real independence until Spain acknowledge it, just trying make it a fact at street level would result in a siege. So once they manage to make Spain negotiate those issues would be up to debate and probably Spain will ask for a new referendum with guarantees (that the proindependence will likely win after all that shit).
If the EU had said anything the populists would have screamed about "Nation states rawr!", had they said nothing the populists would have screamed "HUMAN RIGHTS RAWR!"
in either case, they couldn't win and had to do it internally. Sad as that might make you, it still is the only official course unless you want to add more fuel to the fire.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Just like Brexit, it won't be it a one day thing. New economic plans, new Constitution, new accords, frontiers.
Is uncharted territory, it would take months and years. Until that point the currnt status quo will stay.
In other words, there are not proper plans, because is a mad move no one in the cat goverment really wanted (at least most of them)
ClosingADoor
Member
Sure, but with Brexit (and the Scottish referendum) you had two parties that had a process in mind. In this case, if - I don't think they will still - Catalonia declares independence, it is not a process. It is one side just declaring it. So at that point, Spain can do whatever it wants, freeze all payments and put a border up. They have zero incentive to start a process with Catalonia to arrange a good transition.
veryslowhand
Banned
Nationalisms have always worked great for Europe....
Relaxed Muscle
Member
If they don't accept the independence, existing laws and constitution applies. If they accept,existing laws won't apply and if they start doing crazy things,chaos will raise. Economic chaos, which will be a disaster on the precarious Spanish economy.
ClosingADoor
Member
I don't get the imagined process here. So if they declare independence, you expect things to continue as normal if Spain just ignores it because existing laws apply? So the Catalonian government would tell their people to just continue paying their taxes and act like nothing changed?
I really don't get how they expect this all to work and it seems there is no plan at all for anything at the moment.
His Majesty
Banned
At times, yes. The downfall of dynastic rule and the decline in power of the Church can be attributed to the rise of nationalism and the awakening of the national identity. Look at the French Revolution for example. People turned from subjects to the king into citizens of the nation, with voting rights and career prospects based on merit, instead of which estate you were born into. This created a sense of belonging for the citizens as they were now actually contributing to a society in which they were valued. Later nationalism contributed to the decline of various empires and the Soviet Union.
So simply dismissing nationalism as a force of evil is too simplistic. Nationalism only becomes dangerous when feelings of superiority, elitism and exclusiveness enter the equation. When the pendulum swings too much to one side, like with most political ideologies.
Neither, I mean that were the Spanish government to deploy troops in Catalonia it wouldn't be in any way to use them against its own population.
I wouldnt be so sure of that. We have a sad record of police brutality in Spain. If people protest police will attack 100% sure. Liķe happened during the vote.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
If they Spain and EU don't accept it, and Spain activates 155? Then yes.
There is still a world of difference between deploying the army and deploying the police. Both in procedure and actual message.
You can thank the brutal crackdown by Madrid for that.
It would have been regardless of the crackdown. If anything, the response gave it more legitimacy than it would have had otherwise.
Cool story bro!
I'm talking about the military. If the day comes in which we see Spanish tanks trampling Catalonians or shooting into crowds, I'll be more than happy to admit that I was wrong when I said the Spanish military wouldn't be used against its own citizens. But that's not gonna happen.
Yeah I misread that. Sorry.
We can all agree that referendum was illegal. But some agreement must occur since voting isnt illegal, afaik, deciding how you want to live and the right of self-determination is protected by ICCPR art 1 that is part of the International Bill of Human Rights. So in the end even if local laws are against that referendum the goberment should have manage this better since voting is protected by basic human rights.
But if Spain uses 155 there wouldnt be independence ergo no independence process?
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