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Catalan Independence Referendum(1-O) - The aftermath
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veryslowhand
Banned
OK, they declare independence next week, then what?
They're out of the EU, have hard borders on most sides, won't be recognized by anyone but russia and who knows what spain is gonna do.
????
Profit
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Thanks Funky for that great summary.
The Spanish Government will declare Marshall Law and the military disempower the Catalan local government ... Let's hope it goes fast and without anymore violence.
gutter_trash
Banned
IMO.
the central government should have handled this the same way the UK + Scotland handled theirs.
this hardline approach only serves into giving the Catalan camp more sympathy internationally
the central government should have handled this the same way the UK + Scotland handled theirs.
this hardline approach only serves into giving the Catalan camp more sympathy internationally
Theonik
Member
A repeat of the last few weeks although this time the Catalan Government officially treats it as an invasion.
The Spanish government has no legal framework to allow Catalonia to secede. The UK is different because it has no written constitution and the government can do as they please.
Of course PP has no intention of letting this happen anyway.
This isn't the destruction of nation states, it's their salvation and reclamation from the artificial multi-nation states that emerged in the last few centuries.
We're better off for the destruction of the Yugoslavias, Soviet Unions, Spains and Britains of the world.
And "belong" is a loaded concept. Legitimacy is earned from the ground up, not from the top down. A nation belongs in the state it *wants* to belong to.
Anyhow, I sincerely hope they do declare their independence from the Spanish regime, and that said regime refrains from the brutality we all expect from it.
Indeed. The surest way to prove to a people that they're better off without you is to deny their agency and beat them for daring to question their subservience.
DeathoftheEndless
Crashing this plane... with no survivors!
There's no scenario where this works out well for Catalonia.
gutter_trash
Banned
I understand, the 1978 Constitution makes it impossible to secede but there lies the problem with that document
any country based on a union of multiple nations should have thought in advance a better concise constitution . Present conflict was predictable
any country based on a union of multiple nations should have thought in advance a better concise constitution . Present conflict was predictable
So, if Texas or California vote to secede with only a 40% vote turnaround, that would be okay?
The UK and Scotland have a complete different relationship. The UK is a union of states. Scotland isn't part of England. There are official laws, which make it possible for all of its members to leave the UK.
Spain and Catalan don't have such a relationship, Catalan is just a region of Spain.
Yes.
It's not only about the low percentage of voters but also the low warranties of the voting and how trusty the results are.
curi0usBystander
Member
To the PP any place where they can't win is simply an enemy to attack so they can win (votes) elsewhere. Expecting them to do the sensible thing would imply that they care about anything other than winning (elections).
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
This is anecdotal, but in my circle of friends / colleagues / relatives, from the 20-30 I know not supporting independence, none of them voted. They event went to the polling stations to support voters against the repressive police, but they still thought the referendum didn't make any sense.
In any case, next weeks and months will be interesting: Even though there is no official message, some of the Spanish banks in Catalonia are already advising people to move their savings out of catalan banks and move their tax residence out of Catalonia just in case (corralito, etc.).
Because a vote that only one side participates in is worthless. You do realise a vote's purpose is to try and gain an accurate reflection of the will of the people, right? Context matters.
perfectchaos007
Member
So next week Barcelona will no longer be a part of Spain? Mah geography textbooks!
They should get some weapons and start to defend their "new" country. Spain will probably send troops in.
Independence always comes with violence and blood.
That means you're imposing a decision of a minority on all the people of Catalonia. The opposite of democracy.
I dont know how this gonna end. But Ive been watching total victim blaming over catalonia by the press. Some went so far to publish that there was 400+ police injured that is total nonsense while saying there was no catalonian injured like sure... Even sports journals are making anti catalonian propaganda. This only works to see more and more xenophobic people raising. This cant end well.
Theonik
Member
The existence of the vote would be since the US constitution doesn't allow states to leave. However, there is no requirement on turnout in US elections so the onus would be on people to vote. Abstention does not absolve you of responsibility in an election.
These aren't remotely equivalent things, especially considering the fact that turnout was so low partially because people knew it had no legal basis so didn't bother going
As I understand it (and seemingly confirmed by Funky Papa's post), the turn out figure is totally dubious too - there wasn't much control over who could vote, and there are instances of one person voting multiple times
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Clearly, as the results of our Presidential election shows, but that was well within a legal framework of voting.
andythinkpad
Member
I thought you guys are already a new nation after 48 hours. Where can I buy the commemorative stamp set?
It was pretty clear form the start that only people supporting independence were going to vote, everyone in Spain knew this. Participating in the vote was seen as providing credibility to the process itself. Of course this was before the police started going crazy on the population. But right now, there hasn´t been a single official poll ran by an impartial organization that´s shown the will of independence to be greater than 50%. Even the current Catalan government, composed of a joinment of all independent parties has a minority of votes (not of sits). So in the case Catalonia became independent, the other side would have as much right as to propose a poll to get back to Spain the very next day. It´s a fucked up situation.
Just because something is in a constitution doesn't make it democratic or even right.
Theonik
Member
In the first place the constitution only binds you if you acknowledge it. When a state declares their independence they are basically choosing to not obey the laws of the original state.
Sovereignty is fundamentally about the exercise of authority through the state's exclusivity to violence from a certain perspective.
Hell, I would argue that the Catalan government choosing to run this referendum contrary to the wishes of the Spanish government and constitution is a de-facto declaration of independence.
And the next logical step in a civilised world is first to try to change the constitution, not to try to go directly to civil war.
Only nominally.
Internationally speaking, Scotland, England and Wales are not countries. We passed a law allowing the vote because it was the best way to solve the question.
Spain could've done similar. The choice not to is political, not merely Constitutional.
Perfect recipe for civil war.
gutter_trash
Banned
Agreed 100%
A sit down by both camps, setting the terms, agreeing to a clear question. And having everything official would have been the most peaceful and legitimate way of dealing with it.
The Yes would have lost if it were handled legitimately
Yeah, that´s the worst I´m getting of this. Not the victim blaming, but the radicalization of both sides, specially the unionist one. I can´t understand how they can hate the Catalans so much but at the same time be asking for them not to leave? I hate you, don´t go!! It makes no sense.
No, but that doesn't have much of a bearing on whether the referendum is legal
And obviously the legality of the referendum is going to impact the turnout, particularly among people that believe Catalonia should remain a part of Spain
The destruction of Yugoslavia literally resulted in ethnic cleansing! How are we better off for that happening!?
curiouscharles
Member
i've never understood the need for Catalonian independence.
from an outsider's perspective, it's like... just fuggin' stay in Spain guys [you look the same, you sound the same, you eat the same fucking things].
never, for an outsider, has an independence movement seemed so ridiculous.
BUT, i would love to be educated?
my brother in law is from Barcelona, and supports independence, but has given me zero compelling reasons why it's a thing?
from an outsider's perspective, it's like... just fuggin' stay in Spain guys [you look the same, you sound the same, you eat the same fucking things].
never, for an outsider, has an independence movement seemed so ridiculous.
BUT, i would love to be educated?
my brother in law is from Barcelona, and supports independence, but has given me zero compelling reasons why it's a thing?
So, if one state of your country wants to secede by a minority of the people and the whole thing is illegal and unconstitutional. Your government says, voting for it would be illegal and criminal and you would be apprehended.
Would you go to the voting booth in that case to vote no?
If Marshall Law is brought in:
Why even involve the military? Have you even seen what he's able to do all by himself? ;P
We already fought a war to settle that question
Catalonia has it's own different culture and even their own language (much like, for example, Basque). Spain is very rich in cultural diversity actually.
In Catalonia's case, the independence ideology comes from very long ago since the borbonic ocupation in 1700ish? (cant remember now)
Dude, come on. Its clearly not that simple - Catalonia even has its own separate language from Spanish!
There are legitimate reasons why someone from there might feel different from other Spanish people. I don't think they are significant to warrant even considering leaving Spain, and that most of the reasons for wanting to are just as dumb as those given in support of Brexit, but its hardly like they're entirely without merit
gutter_trash
Banned
The biggest problem with Spain is trying to adopt a unified identity that is tied to the dominant crown's name change.
When people think of Spanish and the Spanish language, they think of what was formerly known as as Castilian but rarely think about the other languages.
The entire premise of a unified Spain in a geographical term, that is okay.
But Spain decided that Castilian to become the defecto language and labeled it as Spanish is the main root of the attempt of creating a Unified Spaniard identity based on language instead of geography.
That is an error IMO.
Before the use of the word Spain for the current country, the word was used geographical for the entire Iberian peninsula in a geographic manor. Not linguistic nor nationalistic.
When people think of Spanish and the Spanish language, they think of what was formerly known as as Castilian but rarely think about the other languages.
The entire premise of a unified Spain in a geographical term, that is okay.
But Spain decided that Castilian to become the defecto language and labeled it as Spanish is the main root of the attempt of creating a Unified Spaniard identity based on language instead of geography.
That is an error IMO.
Before the use of the word Spain for the current country, the word was used geographical for the entire Iberian peninsula in a geographic manor. Not linguistic nor nationalistic.
Did you even read Funky Papa post?
Squirrel Killer
Member
Can a newly independent state just declare that they are joining the EU? Doesn't the EU have a say in who joins with certain criteria for joining? Has the EU indicated they would accept the new state?
No. And they wouldn't be using its military against its citizens.
Yes, but the CSA's defeat is cheered because the evil of their slavery outweighs the rightness of their push for self determination.
States have no inherent value, but there is value in the cohesion and legitimacy that springs from nationhood; a concept that emerges from people rather than being imposed on them.
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