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Catalan lawmakers approve plan for secession from Spain

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guess they're gonna try again

BARCELONA, Spain (AP) — The regional parliament of Catalonia approved a plan Monday to set up a road map for independence from Spain by 2017, in defiance of the central government.

The chamber, based in the northeastern city of Barcelona, passed the motion by 72 votes to 63.

The proposal was made by pro-secession lawmakers from the "Together for Yes" alliance and the extreme left-wing Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP). The groups together obtained a parliamentary majority in regional elections in September.

The Spanish government reacted swiftly. In a nationally televised address, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said that his government will appeal against the decision at the Constitutional Court, which has in the past blocked moves toward independence.

"Catalonia is not going anywhere, nothing is going to break," Rajoy said.

He added he would meet with the leader of the main opposition Socialist Party, Pedro Sanchez, to forge a common front against the separatists.

The motion passed by the parliament in its first post-election session declared "the start of a process toward the creation of an independent Catalan state in the form of a republic" and a "process of democratic disconnection not subject to the decisions by the institutions of the Spanish state."

While separatist lawmakers celebrated the result in the chamber, opponents held up Spanish and Catalan flags.

"There is a growing cry for Catalonia to not merely be a country, but to be a state with everything that means," Raul Romeva, head of the "Together for Yes" alliance, said at the start of the session. "Today we don't only open a new parliament, this marks a before and after."

Catalan branches of Spain's ruling conservative Popular Party and the Socialist and the Citizens opposition parties had filed appeals to halt the vote, but Spain's Constitutional Court ruled last Thursday that it could go ahead.

"You want to divide a country by raising a frontier within the European Union," Citizens regional leader Ines Arrimadas told separatist lawmakers.

The Constitutional Court is expected to rule the law illegal quickly, but the motion specifically orders the regional government not to heed the decision of Spain's highest court. The motion gives the incoming government 30 days to start working on a new Catalan constitution, which would later be voted on in a referendum, and begin establishing a new tax office and social security administration.

Pro-secessionist parties won their majority of 72 seats in September on the strength of just 48 percent of the votes. That was because of a twist in Spanish election law that over-represents rural areas — where separatists have more support.

Anti-independence lawmakers say that quirk denies separatists a legitimate democratic mandate to break away from Spain.

As well as warnings from the EU that an independent Catalonia would have to ask to be admitted to the bloc, separatist forces also face an internal dispute that could slow or even derail the independence push.

Later Monday the parliament was to begin what is likely to be a long and heated investiture debate over whether Artur Mas should continue for a third term as the region's head of government.

While his "Together for Yes" alliance backs him with 62 votes, it is short of the required majority of 68. The anti-independence parties are against him, and the CUP has said it won't support Mas because of his conservative austerity policies and the corruption investigations involving his Convergence Party.

The parliament has until Jan. 9 to form a government or new elections must be called.

By then, Spain will have held national elections, and the issue of how to handle the situation in Catalonia will play a crucial role in whether Rajoy's Popular Party can hold onto to power.

Polls consistently show that while the majority of the 7.5 million Catalans support holding an official referendum on independence, they are evenly divided over whether to break centuries-old ties with the rest of Spain.

The Spanish government has refused requests by regional lawmakers to hold an official referendum similar to the one Scotland held last year when Scots voted to stay in the United Kingdom.

Separatists have held massive pro-independence rallies since the Constitutional Court struck down key parts of a law that would have given more power to the region in 2010.

The ranks of lifelong secessionists who feel that the Catalan language — spoken along with Spanish in the region — and local traditions can only flourish in an independent state have been joined by those who are frustrated by Spain's ongoing economic problems.

It has become a common complaint among the separatist camp that Madrid's central government takes more in taxes from the relatively wealthy and industrialized region that it returns in investment in infrastructures and social services.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/b816...atalonia-parliament-vote-secession-rest-spain
 

RangerX

Banned
They should be given the referendum. I did an assignment on the basque people for an anthropology elective and there are distinct cultural differences between them and the rest of Spain. I don't like seeing countries break up but a democratic mandate was given to the pro-independence parties at the last regional election so the government should listen to that.
 

Santiako

Member
They should be given the referendum. I did an assignment on the basque people for an anthropology elective and there are distinct cultural differences between them and the rest of Spain. I don't like seeing countries break up but a democratic mandate was given to the pro-independence parties at the last regional election so the government should listen to that.
This is not Euskadi though, this is catalonia. And they did referendum (more than one iirc) and they didn't end in majority.
 
a legislative election is not a mandate for separation.

if the Catalan would be honest, they should hold a Referendum

Electing legislators from nationalist parties does not equal automatic secession
 

babuchy

Member
This is not Euskadi though, this is catalonia. And they did referendum (more than one iirc) and they didn't end in majority.

who did more than one referendum? Catalan people?

Here in Catalonia has not held any referendum, only a non-binding popular consultation and only with the support of the separatist parties and the results of this were about 75% in favor of independence.

The main problem is the lack of dialogue between the government of Rajoy and the Catalan government, which today is nonexistent. I hope, for the good of all Spaniards and Catalan, neither Rajoy and his Popular Party win the next general elections and to win any other party, so that can open the way for dialogue and the situation does not end up as bad as it seems .
 

Nivash

Member
Can i see a map?

LMGTFY:

Map-of-Catalonia.png
 

CodonAUG

Member
They are welcome to secede from Spain and become part of the USA. Wouldn't be the first time we took something that was their's...
 

correojon

Member
The more I think of this, the more convinced I am that this is only a maneuver for the general elections of the 20D. PP can capitalize on this as presenting themselves as the "defenders of Spain" and saturate everyday news with information regarding Cayaluña, so less time to talk about economic data, corruption, people losing their homes or unemployment. On the other side, the independent parties of Cataluña will use the PP´s position to say that "Cataluña is oppressed by Spain". More votes for everyone and less talk about corruption.

Also, if they were minimally coherent and were honest about the process CDC and ERC wouldn´t pariticipate in the general elections of December. They just passed an act saying they´ll disobey the orders from the spanish government, but at the same time are willing to participate in it? Nonsense.

The circus is on.
 
If they split no one's getting anything good out of it. I know every Catalan loves to say they're not Spanish, but this isn't a smart move.
 

Atolm

Member
Whatever comes out from this I just hope this will end the whole issue so we can focus on the real problems the country has (massive youth unemployment, rising poverty & inequality...) because right now it seems the only problem of Spain from the last ten years has been nationalism (first with Ibarretxe, now this) and the issue has absolute monopoly on the news. Both sides use it shamelessly to put all the other shit (massive corruption & mismanagement, all of which Catalonia has also had its share) under the rug.
 
Granted I don't live in Spain but I have spent a significant amount of time there. To me this sounds like a horrible idea. Spain has a TON of issues with their economy. A split off of Catalonia would just make things worse for both sides. Spain would lose a major city in Barcelona and Catalonia would become a tiny place with no support structure for anyone outside of Barcelona. There might be a time for something like this but it is clearly not now.
 

ZZMitch

Member
If this ends up happening it will be interesting seeing the effects on international and club soccer for Spain. I heard something about French Ligue 1 offering Barcelona a spot if they get kicked out of La Liga.
 

massoluk

Banned
At 72 votes to 63, breaking away doesn't seem like a good move at the moment to me. I think it should be closer to unanimous before breaking away. I mean even if you take the votes literally, that's like almost half of the people still don't want to split.
 

correojon

Member
At 72 votes to 63, breaking away doesn't seem like a good move at the moment to me. I think it should be closer to unanimous before breaking away. I mean even if you take the votes literally, that's like almost half of the people still don't want to split.

In fact, due to the spanish legislation, the parties who voted against this resolution (those 63 votes) got more votes in the elections than the parties who voted for it, but they get less seats in the parliament. That is, those 72 votes are of parties who got 1900000 votes on the last election, while the 63 votes are from parties who got 2100000 votes. So they are pushing this forward with less than the 50% of public support.
 

babuchy

Member
In fact, due to the spanish legislation, the parties who voted against this resolution (those 63 votes) got more votes in the elections than the parties who voted for it, but they get less seats in the parliament. That is, those 72 votes are of parties who got 1900000 votes on the last election, while the 63 votes are from parties who got 2100000 votes. So they are pushing this forward with less than the 50% of public support.

Yes, this is because of D'Hondt's Law.

A vote from outside Barcelona region count less than a vote from Girona, Tarragona and Lleida (the other three regions of Catalonia), and in these three regions the votes in favor of secessionist parties have been higher.
 

correojon

Member
Yes, this is because of Ohm's Law.

A vote from outside Barcelona region count less than a vote from Girona, Tarragona and Lleida (the other three regions of Catalonia), and in these three regions the votes in favor of secessionist parties have been higher.

lol, I think you meant D' Hont´s Law (not trying to be a smartass, but having studied electronics I found the confussion funny...I´m a nerd I know :p)
 

Nivash

Member
Holy, first time I see Costa del Sol recognized as a region/town in a Map of Spain.

Best marketing ever. First step for a future independence.

Future Spain is going to look like the pre-re-conquista if they keep that trend going.


EDIT: Sorry about the mega-image, was on mobile so I didn't notice until now. Put quote-tags around it.
 
D

Deleted member 126221

Unconfirmed Member
Can't wait to visit an independent Catalonia!
 
Real Madrid to endlessly win La Liga from now on confirmed.

I do wonder how much the soccer politics affect things like this. There's a great book about the history of it all called "Fear and Loathing in La Liga" that I need to get around to finishing one of these days.
 

akira28

Member
Good.

Now give us back all our pre-columbian stolen gold :mad:

fuck the gold. Lets get stock reparations for all the lost human capital, inturrupted lifestyle, and lost potential earnings.

with interest, we could just crash their economy, and tell them to turn over the keys to New Atlantis.
 

Onyar

Member
I really hope we become independent.
Back in 2006 the people of Catalonia approved a new statute Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia and basically it become a useless piece of paper for the state due the central goverment cut it almost entirely and made something new that was accordingly his needs. The years that came after a lot of laws where disputed only for the reason to come from Catalonia. When a lot of citizens started to feel less interested to be Spaniards, no movement was made by Spain.

Neither they allow a referendum, because they know the independentist will win. We had to do plebiscite elections to try to say yes or no to independence and just counting the yes parties we arrived at 48% of the votes. The problem is that some people understood this elections as a referendum and a lot didn't, maybe because the economical situation isn't good. For example a lot of people voted first thinking about the money and after the independence, but in the case a referendum will be made they will vote yes.

Personally isn't only an emotional thing or economical, it's that I don't want to be part of a country that isn't democratic.
 

Nivash

Member
In case of secession, potential nuke area?

Got a better idea. Spain could do with some pruning. Behold: Spain 2.0.

LdnYxdT.png


That perfect rectangle could be you, Spain. What are you waiting for? Symmetry beckons! Do it, do it, dooooo iiiiiitttttt...
 

correojon

Member
I really hope we become independent.
Back in 2006 the people of Catalonia approved a new statute Statute of Autonomy of Catalonia and basically it become a useless piece of paper for the state due the central goverment cut it almost entirely and made something new that was accordingly his needs. The years that came after a lot of laws where disputed only for the reason to come from Catalonia. When a lot of citizens started to feel less interested to be Spaniards, no movement was made by Spain.

Neither they allow a referendum, because they know the independentist will win. We had to do plebiscite elections to try to say yes or no to independence and just counting the yes parties we arrived at 48% of the votes. The problem is that some people understood this elections as a referendum and a lot didn't, maybe because the economical situation isn't good. For example a lot of people voted first thinking about the money and after the independence, but in the case a referendum will be made they will vote yes.

Personally isn't only an emotional thing or economical, it's that I don't want to be part of a country that isn't democratic.

I think this is a very subjective view on the matter and you are making a lot of unfounded assumptions.
I really hope there is a referendum, but I also hope that Cataluña votes to stay with Spain. I think going their way would be a disaster for both sides and that Spain will recover from this, while I can´t see clearly what Cataluña will do really.


I also think that now, more than ever, is not the time to be discussing this and people should be centered around other much pressing matters.
 

Tenebrous

Member
Future Spain is going to look like the pre-re-conquista if they keep that trend going.



EDIT: Sorry about the mega-image, was on mobile so I didn't notice until now. Put quote-tags around it.

Pretty sure that's the start of a Crusader Kings II game.
 
They should be given the referendum. I did an assignment on the basque people for an anthropology elective and there are distinct cultural differences between them and the rest of Spain. I don't like seeing countries break up but a democratic mandate was given to the pro-independence parties at the last regional election so the government should listen to that.

What cultural differences, I wonder?
 

babuchy

Member
What cultural differences, I wonder?

Here in Catalunya speak català rather than español, eat fuet (slimmer salami like) instead of chorizo and celebrate our parties with Castellers (human towers) instead of Corridas de toros.

Everything else, like siesta, voting for corrupted politicians, got to bed too late, poor foreign languages skills, the practice of "one works and four look as he does", its prety similar to the rest of Spain.

Seriously, there are cultural differences obviously, but IMO not as pronunced as for wanting independence from the rest of Spain.
 

correojon

Member
Here in Catalunya speak català rather than español, eat fuet (slimmer salami like) instead of chorizo and celebrate our parties with Castellers (human towers) instead of Corridas de toros.

Everything else, like siesta, voting for corrupted politicians, got to bed too late, poor foreign languages skills, the practice of "one works and four look as he does", its prety similar to the rest of Spain.

Seriously, there are cultural differences obviously, but IMO not as pronunced as for wanting independence from the rest of Spain.

Hahah very good explanation.

BTW, please anyone, don´t think that in the rest of spain we eat chorizo and celebrate parties with Corridas de toros. In the Basque Country for example we talk Euskera, eat pintxos which can really be made of anything and celebrate our parties by not having sex with girls XD
 

Frodo

Member
Let them all be independent. Let them try and get into the EU and let Spain deny it to eternity.

It will be glorious.





If people let it, in a few years Spain and the UK will be thousands of tiny independent countries that have no way to survive on their own. But let them do it, I say. Let them do it.
 

correojon

Member
Let them all be independent. Let them try and get into the EU and let Spain deny it to eternity.

It will be glorious.





If people let it, in a few years Spain and the UK will be thousands of tiny independent countries that have no way to survive on their own. But let them do it, I say. Let them do it.

What would you gain with that? Do you enjoy seeing other people suffer?

This is precisely the attitude that´s allowed for the problem with Cataluña to reach the point where it´s now. Confrontation and threats won´t achieve anything.
 

Frodo

Member
I'm not confronting anyone nor threatening.

Also, you can't really tell the tone things are said on the internet, but if you read right you would see I'm not really advocating pro independence here.
 

Carbonox

Member
Hahah very good explanation.

BTW, please anyone, don´t think that in the rest of spain we eat chorizo and celebrate parties with Corridas de toros. In the Basque Country for example we talk Euskera, eat pintxos which can really be made of anything and celebrate our parties by not having sex with girls XD

qCJl17s.png
 

itxaka

Defeatist
Got a better idea. Spain could do with some pruning. Behold: Spain 2.0.

LdnYxdT.png


That perfect rectangle could be you, Spain. What are you waiting for? Symmetry beckons! Do it, do it, dooooo iiiiiitttttt...


We at pamplona will finally got what we always wanted.


A freaking beach!!

I wholeheartedly second this motion.


celebrate our parties by not having sex with girls XD

Best definition of the Basque Country and Navarra ever.
 

correojon

Member
I'm not confronting anyone nor threatening.

Also, you can't really tell the tone things are said on the internet, but if you read right you would see I'm not really advocating pro independence here.

You are basically saying that Cataluña will suffer if they go independent and that you will enjoy it. You are threatening them by using fear of a poor future situation and are rejoycing in that hipothetical terrible future for them, not bringing anything constructive to the table. If that isn´t confrontational, I don´t know what it is then.

We at pamplona will finally got what we always wanted.


A freaking beach!!

I wholeheartedly second this motion.
Maybe you will then stop coming to pee in the sea in Donostia! XD


Best definition of the Basque Country and Navarra ever.
At least in Pamplona there are 10 days a year where you can do it without loosing your Navarrization XD
 
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