ArkhamFantasy
Member
Must be nice having an intelligent adult in charge of your government.
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Chancellor Merkel's approval rating rises, could very well remain Chancellor
- Thread starter -Plasma Reus-
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PdotMichael
Banned
Rich people have always better chances and more opportunities. Life is not fair.
But a Hartz IV child can still archive an university degree in Germany.
But a Hartz IV child can still archive an university degree in Germany.
This so much. Yes, money helps with education, but even the kids who live on wellfare can pull trough and get pretty much any degree they want and with that pull out of poverty.
It doesnt happen often, but the chances, even help from the government are there.
That kind of opportunity (which you have in several countries in europe) makes me think the fabled American Dream became a european thing.
SporeCrawler
Member
its not great of course and jntentionally so. However it is enough to feed yourself and stay warm. Its much better than what other countries provide
I think many of these problems are being addressed but obviously its not easy to just scrap the old system with issues like healthcare or pensions.
As for taxes i believe there were plans to abolish the 25% flat-tax on capital gains (interest, dividends etc.), which i think is one of the worst tax cuts for the wealthy. lets see if that goes through.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Yes, the issues that would prevent kids in Germany from achieving that aren't systemic, as in the US for example.
Its rather about the parents and the social environment the kids grow up in. The system offers them all the opportunities, the question is whether or not they are willing to take them.
The educational system in Germany certainly needs some improvement, but it certainly allows every kid, regardless of background, to succeed.
Germany ranks slightly behind the top in social mobility. That means people from lower societal classes moving up(in the vast majority of cases because of education), basically the American dream:
As you can see, the US is the worst at the American dream.
Joking or genuine lack of awareness?
I completely agree. I don't believe that money is the issue (albeit it obvious helps to push underachievers through). Its not even like private schools in Germany would give you a significantly better start than public schools. We could maybe do more to educate parents about the possibilities and perspectives but really the ambitions have to come from the individual. I don't see how politics can change that.
TVexperto
Member
No please no! Nobody should be able to lead a country for almost 2 decades, its too much.
People dont understand, she let millions of UNNACCOUNTED refugees in the country, they still dont know who is who or where they come from. she always dodges difficult questions and is always silent and never is part of difficult conversations
People dont understand, she let millions of UNNACCOUNTED refugees in the country, they still dont know who is who or where they come from. she always dodges difficult questions and is always silent and never is part of difficult conversations
With "millions" you're implying >2.000.000 unaccounted refugees?
PLEASE understand people!!!
crack-king
Member
I don't think it's about private schools, but more about private lessons. They are quite costly and can really help. If children have problems and they maybe have to repeat a class they have directly a bad standing under teachers. I've seen it so many times during my education...
But also the whole education system somehow fails. We, in NRW, have now the G8 where children had to deal for many years with the lack of proper school books, because nobody was prepared for that. That is a huge failure! Then we now have Bachelor and Master at University that should enable people to get faster into jobs but what is the reality? Companies complain that people who are coming directly from the university are lacking basic skills. As a software engineer I can totally support that. If I wouldn't have been so interested into that field even before studying, I would probably have no valuable skill from the studies. I know people who are finishing their masters which can't write a simple method.
Especially the university (but also schools) are to much focused on good grades during one fucking exam. But they don't really care if you understand everything. Most of the exams could have been taken by anybody who learned the proper words before.
Then we are already dividing children after the 4th grade into where their live is going. This is just amazing. I think until the 8 or 9th grade I didn't really care about school. I just had to go and it was part of my day. After that I became interested in software and my "career" began. But in the 4th grade I was more interested in what I will play when I'm at home then what I should study for my exam next week. And I think most children think that way and it's unfair to divide them in such an early state and let's be honest. Children that are going to the "Hauptschule" have it really hard. They will have problems to find a job, they will be ignored by a huge chunk of society and I it was all decided in the 4th grade! Of course it would be possible for them to finish the abitur, but that's very rare. The education system should focus on the individual children, every children has different strenghts, different abilities and not everyone has to become a doctor. But we should enable children to become experts in what they are interested in and what they are good in. But to do this we need more money, more possibilities and more time for the children to grow and gain experiences. And smaller classes would help. While I was in school we already had 35 children in one class!
Then back to university. Why can only people with a degree of 1,0 or 1,1 study medicine? Does anyone really think that someone with a grade of 2,0 or even 3,0 would be worse? Because he was maybe bad at sports or history? What does this even have to do with it? Some of those 1,0 graders are maybe very good at studying but then quite bad at being empathic with patients. But does anyone care? Nope....
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Millions? Where is the figure for this coming from?
Gurgelhals
Member
Hey guys, how ya all doing!?!
Oh well, might as well include him for shits and giggles too:
Merkel could very well run with that old Adenauer slogan, btw.
Chairmanchuck
Member
You can study it, just have a looot of semesters you have to wait.
I have a 3,3 Abitur and I graduadated in law/Jura...
And now try to explain someone in HR, who might be younger than me, what a Staatsexamen is. We still have Staatsexamen in some parts, then Bachelor/Master, then afaik some majors still have Diplom....
I agree with your whole paragraph.
I went to the "Elite-Gymnasium" of our city and I can tell you that, since the teachers almost always know the rich parents of some students, they certainly had students they favored. Also those rich parents usually also "donate" to the school, so....
Fuck. There were two girls in my class that couldnt speak a proper english sentence "I tomorrow go to school learn English. After school I like go shopping." B+...
Or the students who were really good at natural sciences and represented the school at "Jugend forscht", even though they had no clue about History, somehow got great history grades and good grades in sport, even though they were the chubbiest kids in class and couldnt do anything right in those classes...
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Genuine lack of awareness. Which party offers something better?
Having someone staying sixteen years in power shouldn't be allowed in any democracy. In her case she not only continued neoliberalist public policies in her country, but she also made the EU do whatever she wanted and led to disasters (Greece etc)
Today even the pro-federalis & neoliberalism Macron is struggling to get the smallest of changes in how the EU works.
The lack of a real left and a real progressive populist movement in Germany is really sad. At least the UK has their left-wing party with a real left-wing agenda and not some "third way" bullshit.
Today even the pro-federalis & neoliberalism Macron is struggling to get the smallest of changes in how the EU works.
The lack of a real left and a real progressive populist movement in Germany is really sad. At least the UK has their left-wing party with a real left-wing agenda and not some "third way" bullshit.
crack-king
Member
The problem is that Merkel is not really the problem. She doesn't have the power as someone like Trump and people are not voting for her, but her party. It's like americans would vote 16 years for republicans and that party thinks that Trump would be a great representer of that party. Without the backing of the party Merkel could do nothing.
I agree with a lot of the things you say. There must be improvements not only for the sake of social mobility but for a everyone really. Regarding the 3 school system I always had a different stance. I went to school in lower saxony when we still had the orientational level of +2 years after elementary. That was bs because kids hit puberty and my experience was the exact opposite of what you are describing. Kids from backgrounds with weaker social stability completely underperformed in those two years while the difference wasn't noticable in elementary school. Kids from higher income families where pushed through by their parents since they knew what was at stake.
I mean it's a complex issue but we can all agree there is room for improvement.
But this is very anecdotal Chunk. I went to one of the best schools in my district and the teacher body was very left leaning (as was true for every school or university I went to in germany) and teachers where really - sometimes openly - condescending to me and my siblings coming from an affluent, conservative family. What I am saying is teachers are humans too and there will be such and such.
TVexperto
Member
You guys just dont understand, Merkel has been doing NOTHING these last years, she always stays silent and just waits a few months until every problem is blown over til the next one:
Erdogan, Refugees
How can she still talk to Erdogan? He is a tyrannt. She should clearly say NO to him yet she still gives that guy money.
Erdogan, Refugees
How can she still talk to Erdogan? He is a tyrannt. She should clearly say NO to him yet she still gives that guy money.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Sure it is. But these are problems I encountered. Im not saying though that no one from a poor background can rise.
Muffin1611
Banned
You're embarrassing yourself.
How about you first tell us where you got the claim about millions of unaccounted refugees from before moving the goalpost?
Oh right, you can't.
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
Representing positions you don't agree with is not "doing NOTHING" though.
And still, wheres that "millions of unaccounted refugees" coming from? Throwing around numbers you can't back with reliable sources probably doesn't help getting your point across in an effective manner.
PdotMichael
Banned
20 years later and I'm still waiting how the refugees somehow affects me.
You know that little word "Realpolitik"? You should look it up.
Merkel is doing pretty good in foreign affairs, even with stuff and people she herself dislikes. She is levelheaded. Is she perfect? nope. is there a better alternative? i dont see anyone.
Bitch Pudding
Member
Because continuation of politics by other means than talk is called "war" (von Clausewitz).
There are tyrants and autocrats all over the planet. Erdogan, Putin, Trump, you name them. But the second you stop talking to them, you lose your last resort to deal or influence them.
Wow, SPD got schooled. People are really that unhappy in NRW?
I only moved here 2 years ago and while I have to admit that I think it doesn't really matter much for me which of the big 2 parties are governing, I thought NRW did well enough.
The Wahlomat made me go for SPD for the first time in like 15 years (no Wahlomat, I still won't vote Linke) and they are losing. Meanwhile, the FPD, for whom I voted before and saw them not making the 5% border are flying high, lol.
I would be happy with Merkel continuing governing even though I dislike many of the CDU's stances. She is a pro and and the status quo is ok.
I only moved here 2 years ago and while I have to admit that I think it doesn't really matter much for me which of the big 2 parties are governing, I thought NRW did well enough.
The Wahlomat made me go for SPD for the first time in like 15 years (no Wahlomat, I still won't vote Linke) and they are losing. Meanwhile, the FPD, for whom I voted before and saw them not making the 5% border are flying high, lol.
I would be happy with Merkel continuing governing even though I dislike many of the CDU's stances. She is a pro and and the status quo is ok.
You guys went to some weird schools. My teachers were non-political and just taught students stuff, nothing more, nothing less.
Anyway, I want Gröhe gone. That guy is really fucking us (non-old people) over.
Muffin1611
Banned
Same.
I just hope that if it comes to a CDU and FDP coalition the CDU won't allow the FDP to reintroduce tuition fees.
Also disappointed about the loss of the Greens, I voted for them today :/
I'm more worried that a continued Merkel government which could shift more right-ward seriously delays any type of necessary EU reforms outside of "here's a heaping bowl of austerity."
The French won't be able to accomplish much with Macron if he ends up with a right legislature. Italy is circling the populist drain and Greece is a permanent basket case.
The French won't be able to accomplish much with Macron if he ends up with a right legislature. Italy is circling the populist drain and Greece is a permanent basket case.
GameAddict411
Member
That comes down to how their political system was structured. The US winner's take all system is what eventually polarized the country to what it is today. It made it possible for incompetent and completely evil people to gain power. It's no longer about governing the country. It's people pushing agenda's of the highest bidder.
superdeluxe
Member
Good. We need a strong Germany to lead Europe BS Russia
Merkel is worse than Hitler, Honecker, Stalin, Mao, Disney, Reagan, Trump and Griffith combined. Am I doing it right?
I think it's time the CDU takes the Adenauer posters "Keine Experimente" out of the cellar, photoshops her face on that and still win.
I think that's easier said than done. Theoretically it's possible but how many children are going to Gymnasium or even Realschule whose parents are unemployed/ receive Hartz IV? Or even parent?
I think it's time the CDU takes the Adenauer posters "Keine Experimente" out of the cellar, photoshops her face on that and still win.
I think that's easier said than done. Theoretically it's possible but how many children are going to Gymnasium or even Realschule whose parents are unemployed/ receive Hartz IV? Or even parent?
There were enough when I was there. Money isn't a problem, so it doesn't matter what your parents earn. But if they are lazy, sit in front of the TV all day etc, the chance is obviously higher that the child will end up being similar and thus ends up getting bad grades and not going to a better school.
They weren't free when I went but I think you got the money back when you received social benefits.
I dont know if it changed since the 90's but money doesnt decide to which level of school you go. The books were free, the everyday material i.e. for math was the same and there was help from the government if you couldnt pay for out-of-school travels.
I knew kids from rich parents who attended Hauptschule and I knew Kids from poor parents who attended Gymnasium and did great. And I knew kids from rich parents who attended private schools, THATS different. (And in one case a little fucked up, knew a boy in my clas who attended with us in the gymnasium and his brother got the private school treatment.)
What is different is the personal goal of the kid after 10th grade. He could either go from realschule to Gymnasium if his grades are good. Or he could stop his education in the gymnasium after the 10th grade because he either feels the need to get a job right now to support himself and his family or he doesnt feel he could attend University or couldnt afford University and the grades 11th through 13th would be wasted.
Well I said it's all anecdotal
Regarding the discussion I always thought the term "bildungsfern" describes it best. If you're groomed to become a doctor chances are you will. And in Germany without any extra money being put on the table. But how do you plant the ambition into every low income family. It's futile.
What kind of school did you attend and where? Anecdotally I can't remember any kid with unemployed parents at my Gymnasium in a town near Stuttgart.
And even if the parents are not "Assis" it is not easy and cheap to get your children through Gymnasium if I recall what my mother had to spend on school trips, literature for lessons, school lunch or stuff I needed for after school programs.
The only thing I remember being free was a calculator from I believe tenth until twelfth class which we had to return at the end of our school time. There was an option to lent some things from school but you weren't allowed write anything into it because others after you might need it. Most school books you get from the school which is good because these are the most expensive but other things you had to buy and they still cost money.
And even if money problems are all taken care off there are still social issues which aren't easily resolved.
You could do it yourself but the opportunity has to present itself (for the child). You can also rely on the parents but...well, if they are useless, good luck. Alternatively, media could play a role but I doubt they will be any useful in that regard.
Also, you don't have to have ambition to leave the low income area.
Gymnasium in some town in Brandenburg.
As Kyougar stated above, you get help from the government. You also get help with the books. Also, it's not like you have to eat school lunch. You can bring something from home or just not eat lunch (like I did, Kinder Country were enough for me in school *cough*).
My mom got hartz 4 and i never had any problems to pay for anything.
Lunch? We got coupons.
School trips? School paid for them.
School material? Books were paid by the school and only loaned by the students.
I disagree. As a child when the plan is not laid out for you it does take ambition.
On the other hand schools ARE doing stuff. Elterntage, carreer days, counseling teachers. It could be more though from my experience.
Don't you realize that these two are inherently connected? Erdogan opening the floodgates has been his leverage for a while now.
Coupons for lunch? I've bern at a shitty school...
Ennosuke
Member
They took our jobs!
I'm a counter-example. Never had any ambition (and still don't have) but just doing what has to be done got me very far.
Haha, we didn't have that either. Some bakery bought itself in and sold their food to the students.
The first few years i brought food from home but at some point they started handing out coupons for kids of unemployed parents(must have been around 2004-2005 when i was in 5/6 grade)
Hartz IV is soul crushing though and can make people give up with their lives. I know you didn't want to imply anything about Hartz IV people but I just wanted to say this because the lazy Hartz IV image is only true for a minority and some of them just gave up because of the system.
Don't forget Theresa!
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