TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Fucking please. If you are "provoked" to kill over a cartoon of a dude thousands of years old then get fucked, you don't deserve to have your "feelings" thought about.
If they can't handle it, then they can cry some more.
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Charlie Hebdo attacks - Hostage situations ended, 4 hostages reportedly killed
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
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Fucking please. If you are "provoked" to kill over a cartoon of a dude thousands of years old then get fucked, you don't deserve to have your "feelings" thought about.
If they can't handle it, then they can cry some more.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Any religious person who feels the need to take revenge on people mocking his religion (or just using the likeness of their deities and prophets in vain) has a pretty damn lowly concept of his own allmighty god.
The quote from Ahmed's brother is gutwrenching
vpance
Member
I'm not saying some cultures shouldn't be respected. I was replying to his statement of how he couldn't understand why they don't just ignore the images, and why they would protest, and I was saying it can be hard to grasp why it's possible for people to get offended by actions related to things you never grew up with or experienced.
You're correct that context is important. But it's also hypocritical, because under different societal context you'll receive different reactions. Make light of someone's beliefs at work and you will be fired. Joke about certain sexual orientations on this board and you'll be banned. Make the wrong kind of joke around a friend and he might not be a friend anymore. However, publish any of those same things in the media and this should be cool, and people shouldn't be offended? Humans aren't like on off switches, unfortunately.
Me_Marcadet
Member
If it was on the cover of your serious national paper, it would be out of place. Like I said, Charlie hebdo has more in common with a Porn mag. They make satire for an advised and limited public. It's just a shame some people use those drawings to create offense and discord.
He was suffering from burnout and depression according to the French source.
He was one of many investigators on the case considering the entire bureau was on the case.
He wasn't the first officer in the bureau to commit suicide. The number 3 committed suicide at the end of 2013.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
Theres a difference between a workplace and a system of beliefs that influences people's private lives from the time they are born.
Questioning the church and religion is important, without keeping them in check they will run rampant.
I'm not sure how I feel about this mocking of a religion. On one hand its spitting in the face of terrorists, but on the other it's also spitting in the face of normal people who practice that religion. It's like taking something that means a lot to one of your neighbors, stomping all over it and saying, "This is what I think of this!". It's not going to help with relations or peace at all. And I'm not saying this to appease terrorists, but I can't imagine how unwelcome innocent Muslims must feel in France right now. In the end this is like drawing a line on the ground and saying all of you are on that side and we are on this side.
They're ideas. No reason they shouldn't be criticized.
They can be criticized, but it doesn't change the fact that it's pointless. To most religious people, they would choose their religion over what some strangers are saying. It's better to accept that fact and try to bring them closer in a way. That way the extremists will seem ridiculous to everyone and they lose power. How do you think French Muslims will feel with this stuff? They are going to be tempted to side with extremists since a line has been drawn that insinuates that the general public is their enemy.
There's a difference between mocking something and stomping all over something.
What if someone came to your home then and you mocked them in the crudest way possible about the way they looked. They are probably not going to think of you too kindly after that or feel welcome in your home. I know that looks cannot be decided whereas religion can, but to most religious people it's something they are born with and raised with so it's and idea that is apart of them.
Poking fun at religious stereotypes is ok, but to poke fun (especially in Hebdo's case) at the religion itself is dangerous.
Anyone can scoff at that and say "well liberty of expression" etc etc, but it doesn't change the fact that, while it's a freedom you have, and you should not be censored, there will be consequences to what you choose to publish and make fun of. It's not like extremists are a thing that happened a minute ago -- they've been there a long time. I'm sure Charlie was aware of the dangers, and to have continued despite it, takes balls. It doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do -- but it does take balls. Let's not be surprised that it happened though. It was only a matter of time.
I wouldn't subscribe to that magazine to show support, because to be honest, a lot of those drawings offended me. I still think it's a damn tragedy that he died, and an even worse tragedy that many other innocent people have died.
Anyone can scoff at that and say "well liberty of expression" etc etc, but it doesn't change the fact that, while it's a freedom you have, and you should not be censored, there will be consequences to what you choose to publish and make fun of. It's not like extremists are a thing that happened a minute ago -- they've been there a long time. I'm sure Charlie was aware of the dangers, and to have continued despite it, takes balls. It doesn't mean it's the smart thing to do -- but it does take balls. Let's not be surprised that it happened though. It was only a matter of time.
I wouldn't subscribe to that magazine to show support, because to be honest, a lot of those drawings offended me. I still think it's a damn tragedy that he died, and an even worse tragedy that many other innocent people have died.
What's with the abundance of very bad analogies in this thread? Charlie Hebdo has a circulation of some 60k in a country of 66M. Doesn't get easier to just ignore it in stark contrast to your example.
And there should be freedom to mock ideas.
Maybe they could just ignore the mockery and carry on with their normal lives like most people do. That way they wouldn't feel the need for killings or hostage taking and the general public wouldn't be their supposed ennemy.
All religions are target of satire in France, i don't see why Islam should be given an exception.
The way I look is not the way I think. You're terrible at this analogy game. But let's say someone DID come over to my house and say I'm a bad person for thinking healthcare and public transport should be free. Would I debate with that person about why he thinks that's bad, or would I grab the nearest gun and kill him?
lawlohwhat
Banned
You're a fucking idiot.
We are all born with the capacity to intellectually challenge prevailing systems of thought. Systems of thought have nothing to do with physical appearance. Your analogy is utter shit. People who are devoutly religious are not automatically dumb, murderous animals.
I'm so fucking sick of the PC police not allowing any hard criticism of religiously motivated violence. These murderous fucks are absolutely barbaric and I'll celebrate the day that every single one of them is finally purged from the human population.
my #1 pb is not that muslim people don't like their Prophet to be mocked. it's understandable and defendible without being treated like a wannabe terrorist.
It's the time they spend arguing about it rather than offering even the most ridiculous/incomplete/weird solutions.
Many non-muslim people have not a single clue as to how to make the situation better, but most will try and bring an idea which often is incomplete/stupid/weird. But they're not asking for other people to shut up.
France/Europe/Western World/Human Society has many more pbs than fanatics.
Tho I understand people find shelter from them behind religions and other beliefs, it's my opinion it's time lost and opportunities missed wehn it comes to facing grander and more complex pbs.
Many young muslim guys/gals in France don't give a fuck about school. Okay. I know it's hard for them to get the best degrees and the best jobs. So looking at the mirror and thinking your origins are a burden is totally unfair and a daily burden. But whatever wrongs our society has normalized (there are many) we still look for solutions to land a hand and bring people together rather than apart. We don't offer public school for the sake of it. Our country needs educated people. because we face challenges only educated people can match. Just like we offer social and economic support.
is it hard to understand than the good we do, even tho it may not be on the level of the wrogs we do, is proof of civilized and forward thinking manners?
It should at least put the question of the justification of murders out of the equation.
apparently it's not. which is a shame but see, I can read dubious opinions without wanting to escalate violence.
I'm fed up with pity reasonings. I still love my kind and I'm optimistic my kind loves me in return. If not, well it's not like I can do much on my own. So I'll face the consequences of not being able to be understood by trying to get better ideas and being better at expressing them. Only kids can get away by saying "no" or 'I don't like" or "it's not fair" etc... all the time, these are ideas/answers that take you nowhere.
PS: yesterday some guy who works at an organization supporting the Press proposed that cult places would put a sign saying blasphemy, tho not recommanded, shall be tolerated. that's the sort of weird/incomplete solutions I'm talking about.
It's not that it's satisfying to anyone. it's a way of showing pacifying intentions.
It's the time they spend arguing about it rather than offering even the most ridiculous/incomplete/weird solutions.
Many non-muslim people have not a single clue as to how to make the situation better, but most will try and bring an idea which often is incomplete/stupid/weird. But they're not asking for other people to shut up.
France/Europe/Western World/Human Society has many more pbs than fanatics.
Tho I understand people find shelter from them behind religions and other beliefs, it's my opinion it's time lost and opportunities missed wehn it comes to facing grander and more complex pbs.
Many young muslim guys/gals in France don't give a fuck about school. Okay. I know it's hard for them to get the best degrees and the best jobs. So looking at the mirror and thinking your origins are a burden is totally unfair and a daily burden. But whatever wrongs our society has normalized (there are many) we still look for solutions to land a hand and bring people together rather than apart. We don't offer public school for the sake of it. Our country needs educated people. because we face challenges only educated people can match. Just like we offer social and economic support.
is it hard to understand than the good we do, even tho it may not be on the level of the wrogs we do, is proof of civilized and forward thinking manners?
It should at least put the question of the justification of murders out of the equation.
apparently it's not. which is a shame but see, I can read dubious opinions without wanting to escalate violence.
I'm fed up with pity reasonings. I still love my kind and I'm optimistic my kind loves me in return. If not, well it's not like I can do much on my own. So I'll face the consequences of not being able to be understood by trying to get better ideas and being better at expressing them. Only kids can get away by saying "no" or 'I don't like" or "it's not fair" etc... all the time, these are ideas/answers that take you nowhere.
PS: yesterday some guy who works at an organization supporting the Press proposed that cult places would put a sign saying blasphemy, tho not recommanded, shall be tolerated. that's the sort of weird/incomplete solutions I'm talking about.
It's not that it's satisfying to anyone. it's a way of showing pacifying intentions.
It's only pointless if you assume religious people are absolutely incapable of changing their mind, no matter what. Sounds quite a bit worse than giving them the benefit of the doubt!
No, it doesn't make you a terrorist at all, but it does make you hardcore religious conservative in the vein of, say, evangelical republicans.
The problem with muslim inmigration is not that they are bloothirsy ISIS sympathizers or that they are thinking 24/7 about imposing the new Eurabian caliphate. Like any decent human being, the vast majority of muslims abhor violence and just want to live happy lives. They are just... people, like us.
The problem is that they are people that spose views that are wholly incompatible with a modern society, even if they are not willing to kill for them nor implement them by force. The problem is not that they are willing to kill in order to stop blasphemy (sorry Le Pen), the problem is that they want to stop blasphemy in the first place.
The west ought to abbandon extreme relativism and stop pretending that these are just "different" rather than downright incompatible values, that poses no problem or whatsoever. They do. It is a major political challenge, and the sooner we start to have an honest, rational conversation about it, the better.
Alx
Member
French government published a video showing behind the scene action at Dammartin, plus a short sequence showing the hostage evacuation in Paris at the end.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...ion-des-otages-a-paris-porte-de-vincenne_news
It's mostly showing the intervention groups preparing for action, but it can be interesting for some.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2...ion-des-otages-a-paris-porte-de-vincenne_news
It's mostly showing the intervention groups preparing for action, but it can be interesting for some.
^ Since we're talking bande dessinée, Spirou'll release a special issue on friday featuring 150 artists:
https://twitter.com/EditionsDupuis/status/554576169434374144
https://twitter.com/EditionsDupuis/status/554576169434374144
Do you know the context of the "Star is born" comic? It's poking fun at Islamists, not Islam, not Muslims, and not Mohammed.
Also:
This, so much this.
Is anyone offended by this?
What about this?
ProfessorMoran
Member
It doesn't mean you get to kill the person who insulted your religion, and it doesn't mean you get to kill hostages at a kosher market, that's not what a civilized society does.
No need to be so hostile. Also, some of you people need to go back and read my earlier posts. I wasn't talking about the terrorists. I was talking about the innocent people that are Muslims. I have a feeling that this is going to especially have a major effect on the younger generation. It will be the new cool thing at school to draw crude pictures of Muhammad and bully them. Suddenly, they are going to look up even more to that extremists preacher that visits their mosque. Society will become their enemy. I'm just trying to share another perspective, there's no need to get so mad. I don't think the Charlie Hebdo writers should have died, but I disagree with the handling of this situation. If religious people are trying to make a law that you disagree with then by all means demonstrate how you think it's stupid, but I don't see what the purpose is right now.
I never said that. Go back and read my earlier posts. I was talking about other innocent Muslims and how they will gravitate towards extremists now since they will say, "See what I told you? They disrespect our faith. Come join us." They are going to seem like the good guys.
I never said Islam should be an exception or that people shouldn't be able to mock a religion. What I'm saying is that we have the freedom to do that, but we need to use that freedom more wisely.
This is and idea that they have known since birth. Something that their parents follow and their whole lineage has followed. There is a lot of pride involve especially when they are the minority.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Asterix illustrator Albert Uderzo comes out of retirement to pay his respects
The first one is actually an old drawing, that Uderzo did after Goscinny's death. The second one is indeed new.
Well, I am sure there are still hundreds of terrorists all over france. I am sure a lot of them are known to the french secret service and watched.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
ComputerMKII
Banned
"Nègre" is considered racist in French too.
fabricated backlash
Member
Depiction of racism isn't promotion of racism.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I've never said it was.
Naked Snake
Member
What does it say?
^ Since we're talking bande dessinée, Spirou'll release a special issue on friday featuring 150 artists:
This is beautiful. Please keep sharing related art like this.
I'm so glad I saw this. I've seen those racism allegations thrown by people on my Facebook (heh, I'm hesitating to call them friends) and I've wanted to respond but didn't know how. This helped, thanks.
Man, this incident seems to have affected so many people and in different, polarizing ways. I've gone through the gamut of emotional states in the past couple of days from sadness, anger, elation, and frustration. Ugh... And my biggest gripe about my life is that I'm surrounded by dumb or ignorant people, and this incident more than anything before is making me consider severing my ties with many of them.
Always-honest
Banned
"I too am a Charlie".
I think.
Doesn't change anything I said. I'd rather not assume people are too proud to reason. I'd rather not encourage that kind of laziness.
All this Tumblr crap misrepresenting the cartoons and what the magazine stood for is really fucking annoying, and the ill-informed articles that run with it. It's totally distorting the debate and how the victims in this are seen.
You need context to understand satire, no shit if you find it offensive without it.
The magazine was anti-racism, pro-immigration, anti-homophobia. The cover when it was attacked was criticising Islamophobia for fuck's sake.
You need context to understand satire, no shit if you find it offensive without it.
The magazine was anti-racism, pro-immigration, anti-homophobia. The cover when it was attacked was criticising Islamophobia for fuck's sake.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
there's a lot of anti idolatry in the koran. and the concept of Ijma has established this principle pretty firmly in Sunni jurisprudence
on a side note
I get people defending the fact that in an open society one doesn't have to abide by a religions rules but I've always found it annoying when atheists and non coreligionists go beyond and pretend to mediate and debate or attempt to give their two cents on doctrinal issues that they themselves have avowed are just fictional rules.
Sure you have a right but too often you miss a lot of built in knowledge that informs these debates and one comes off with this very paternalistic/patronizing attitude. one doesn't have to be a muslim to discuss these issues but the wikipedia dropping of random facts (look here a muslim portraits of the prophet, that means muslims who don't want to draw him are wrong!) generally are really patronizing and come off as ignorant. There is a lot of background and history on islamic law. Theres thousands of hadiths, different schools of thought, concepts such has ijma, Qiyas and Urf which inform law in different schools.
APKmetsfan, I'd love to have a civilized discussion regarding the whole "debating the prophet" debate. It was my understanding that Muhammad was more opposed to the idea of idolatry than to drawings in particular, that what was wrong was idolizing a drawing rather than drawing (or looking at a drawing) ?
Amazing.
Amazing.
holy shit, did the cops in that car survive?
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