Support NeoGAF

[Me_Marcadet]

Skyzard, you missed the point of the drawing completely. They were not saying "that's how others saw her". Unlike what other posters have said, Marine Lepen and the far right party never have made racist claims and they do every thing in their power to shut down racist actions amongst their militants. The dumb local militant who posted a racist photoshop of Taubira was banned and called out by Marine Lepen immediately.

The far right magazine Minute who put a title with a racist pun on its cover was also defending itself from any racism by citing Charlie Hebdo as an example.

The point of the drawing was to call out Marine Lepen and Minute and say to the readers that "no matter what you are saying and doing to fight racism, we all know what you are thinking and that's why we will put it out on a drawing, that's you're real thought right there." The goal of the drawing was to reveal something hidden and concealed, and to do so you are forced to show horrible things.

The drawing is way more subtle than it seems. You also need to keep in mind that Charlie Hebdo has a very low tirage and educated readers. It wasn't a drawing who was spreading racist imagery to the mainstream.


So we made it clear this drawing wasn't racist, can you point out where Charlie Hebdo is xenophobic or where they did insult every muslims ?
It's pretty funny to see people call out Charlie hebdo xenophobic because they belong to the most fervent defense force of immigration in the country.

 

[PopeReal]

If they were just laughing at extremists, that wouldn't be an issue. They were heavily insulting every muslim.

While my post doesn't compare to equate them, WBC and CH both gain financially from spreading messages that insult others, doing so under the banner of free speech.

Even if that was true, who the fuck cares? So you don't want anybody being insulted or offeneded? Can you imagine all the journalism we would need to wipe out for this to happen?

 

[Jintor]

If they were just laughing at extremists, that wouldn't be an issue. They were heavily insulting every muslim.

What's intrinsically special about being insulted?

 

[DECK'ARD]

If they were just laughing at extremists, that wouldn't be an issue. They were heavily insulting every muslim.

The article directly addresses that, read it and try and understand it. As you should the cartoons.

While my post doesn't compare to equate them, WBC and CH both gain financially from spreading messages that insult others, doing so under the banner of free speech.

... and fuck off with the WBC comparisons.

 

[marc^o^]

Skyzard, you missed the point of the drawing completely. They were not saying "that's how others saw her". Unlike what other posters have said, Marine Lepen and the far right party never have made racist claims and they do every thing in their power to shut down racist actions amongst their militants. The dumb local militant who posted a racist photoshop of Taubira was banned and called out by Marine Lepen immediately.

The far right magazine Minute who put a title with a racist pun on its cover was also defending itself from any racism by citing Charlie Hebdo as an example.

The point of the drawing was to call out Marine Lepen and Minute and say to the readers that "no matter what you are saying and doing to fight racism, we all know what you are thinking and that's why we will put it out on a drawing, that's you're real thought right there." The goal of the drawing was to reveal something hidden and concealed, and to do so you are forced to show horrible things.

The drawing is way more subtle than it seems. You also need to keep in mind that Charlie Hebdo has a very low tirage and educated readers. It wasn't a drawing who was spreading racist imagery to the mainstream.


So we made it clear this drawing wasn't racist, can you point out where Charlie Hebdo is xenophobic or where they did insult every muslims ?
It's pretty funny to see people call out Charlie hebdo xenophobic because they belong to the most fervent defense force of immigration in the country.

This exactly. Nice, detailed summary.

 

[Skyzard]

Skyzard, you missed the point of the drawing completely. They were not saying "that's how others saw her". Unlike what other posters have said, Marine Lepen and the far right party never have made racist claims and they do every thing in their power to shut down racists action amongst their militants. The dumb local militant who posted a racist photoshop of Taubira was banned and called out by Marine Lepen immediately.

The far right magazine Minute who put a title with a racist pun on its cover was also defending itself from any racism by citing Charlie Hebdo as an example.

The point of the drawing was to call out Marine Lepen and Minute and say to the readers that "no matter what you are saying and doing to fight racism, we all know what you are thinking and that's why we will put it out on a drawing, that's you're real thought right there."

The drawing is way more subtle than it seems. You also need to keep in mind that Charlie Hebdo has a very low tirage and educated readers. It wasn't a drawing who was spreading racist imagery to the mainstream.


So we made it clear this drawing wasn't racist, can you point out where Charlie Hebdo is xenophobic or where they did insult every muslims ?
It's pretty funny to see people call out Charlie hebdo xenophobic because they belong to the most fervent defense force of immigration in the country.

I'm still missing the point about that to be honest and you've got me worried for some reason, but I've read your post a few times and still don't understand how it's different from saying "this is what they think."

Do you mean because I said "others" and not the far right group? That's who I was referring to.
Just so I understand fully, in your post's paragraphs:

1st: Someone made a racist comment about the Justice Minister. Head of the group that person was affiliated with denounced the comment.

2nd: Someone used Charles Hebdo's drawing of a monkey as an insult, and said it wasn't racist because Charles Hebdo did it. [This is the sort of thing I was talking about when I say it proliferates racism even indirectly and they should have recognized that as something significant and decided against it] --- if it wasn't the image itself...just a racist pun, why would they cite Charlie Hebdo?

3rd: CH drew what they think Marine Lepen thinks of the Justice Minister, despite Lepen's efforts to go against those ideas about her.

4th: The drawing is subtle... :S Their readers are mostly uneducated, they would understand... ---whoops sorry, you said educated readers who would understand the subtlety.

At the end of the day it seems exactly as I described? Sorry if I misunderstood, seems kind of hard to make such a mistake with that drawing though. It is what it is. They drew a black person as a monkey claiming this is what they think.

About them being xenophobic themselves, I was referring to xenophobes using Charles Hebdo's material and support as a reason for preaching their hatred.

How they insulted all muslims? For one, they drew their prophet and did so in a mocking fashion.
If you go to a church and then a mosque, one thing you will notice is how in the mosque there are no statues of their prophet, whereas you will commonly see statues of Jesus and Mary in Churches.
It's one of the values and beliefs in Islam that you don't make an idol of the prophet, which is mostly for not idolizing a physical object. When it's that restricted, it's even more offensive when a drawing is done to mock.
That offends all muslims. They know that. And that's why they drew their prophet like that. And that's why you got people protesting and complaining around the world.

 

[allftw]

How they insulted all muslims? For one, they drew their prophet and did so in a mocking fashion.
If you go to a church and then a mosque, one thing you will notice is how in the mosque there are no statues of their prophet, whereas you will commonly see statues of Jesus and Mary in Churches.
It's one of the values and beliefs in Islam that you don't make an idol of the prophet, which is mostly for not idolizing a physical object. When it's that restricted, it's even more offensive when a drawing is done to mock.
That offends all muslims. They know that. And that's why they drew their prophet like that. And that's why you got people protesting and complaining around the world.

Seriously? Islam prohibits drawings of Muhammad and muslims are more than welcome not to draw him. Why would you expect people who don't believe in Islam to abide by its rules? Do you think the rest of the world should stop eating pork or drinking alcohol as well?

Also being offensive is not the same as insulting. Anything you say is very likely to offend at least one group of people. Should we just stop expressing opinions alltogether because someone might be offended by what we say?

 

[Skyzard]

Seriously? Islam prohibits drawings of Muhammad and muslims are more than welcome not to draw him. Why would you expect people who don't believe in Islam to abide by its rules? Do you think the rest of the world should stop eating pork or drinking alcohol as well?

Also being offensive is not the same as insulting. Anything you say is very likely to offend at least one group of people. Should we just stop expressing opinions alltogether because someone might be offended by what we say?

Wow.

I expect people to show a certain level of respect towards others' beliefs, especially when said beliefs have no bearing on them whilst being held dearly by others.

Not so much in France anymore.
I guess the ability to take the piss out of Islam (and in doing so offend all its followers) trumps showing respect there. Muslims don't eat pork, well then that settles school lunches from now, pork only.

Showing others respect isn't mandatory, it's an expectation of decency.

Maybe that's asking for too much from some, but I think it's something worth reminding the majority of.

 

[Liberty4all]

Wow.

I expect people to show a certain level of respect towards others' beliefs, especially when said beliefs have no bearing on them whilst being held dearly by others.

Not so much in France anymore.
I guess the ability to take the piss out of Islam (and in doing so offend all its followers) trumps showing respect there. Muslims don't eat pork, well then that settles school lunches from now, pork only.

Showing others respect isn't mandatory, it's an expectation of decency.

Maybe that's asking for too much from some, but I think it's something worth reminding the majority of.

The religious beliefs you hold dearly are open to be mocked, insulted, laughed at and made fun of. As are mine (Christian). That's part of living in a free society where the right to express how one feels trumps the right to silence non believers.

Satire is not a hate crime.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Wow.

I expect people to show a certain level of respect towards others' beliefs, especially when said beliefs have no bearing on them whilst being held dearly by others.

Not so much in France anymore.
I guess the ability to take the piss out of Islam (and in doing so offend all its followers) trumps showing respect there. Muslims don't eat pork, well then that settles school lunches from now, pork only.

Showing others respect isn't mandatory, it's an expectation of decency.

Maybe that's asking for too much from some, but I think it's something worth reminding the majority of.

Like he said, anything you say is very likely to offend at least one group of people.

Personally, I don't place much value in "beliefs," but even if I did, it would be pretty tough to operate in a way that offends no one.

 

[azyless]

How they insulted all muslims? For one, they drew their prophet and did so in a mocking fashion.

Have you seen the cartoon ?? (obv don't click if you don't want to see it)
Translation (roughly) : "Mahomet overwhelmed by fundamentalists" "It's hard to be loved by idiots"
Is that mocking muslims ? Because to me that sounds exactly like what every sane person is saying : that radicals aren't representative of all muslims, and that if there is a god he doesn't approve of them. This is what they died for. I'm beginning to seriously wonder how many people even bothered to see it, and if they did then people are clearly lacking some analyzing skills these days.

And french citizens do not have to abide by religions' rules. We value freedom of religion but most of all we value freedom from religion, and it is how it should be.

Regarding your last bit, the vast majority of public schools (with muslim or jewish students at least) provide an alternative to pork. And the ban on burka is complicated, but even imams and relevant muslims in the community said that seeing the burqa in France was shameful and worrying, as it started with the growth of radical Islam in France. As much as I believe women should wear what they want, it is incredibly naive to think the majority of these women have any choice in the matter.

 

[Naked Snake]

No other prior event had me add more people/friends to my Shitlist than this.

In other news, I'm pleased to learn that the king and queen of Jordan (that's where I'm from) will be joining the march in Paris. I hope more leaders of Middle Eastern/Muslim nations would do so.


Don't know if posted, Steven Fry chimed in: http://www.stephenfry.com/2015/01/10/you-must-mock/

 

[Mimosa97]

Wow.

I expect people to show a certain level of respect towards others' beliefs, especially when said beliefs have no bearing on them whilst being held dearly by others.

Not so much in France anymore.
I guess the ability to take the piss out of Islam trumps showing respect there. Muslims don't eat pork, well then that settles school lunches from now, pork only.

Showing others respect isn't mandatory, it's an expectation of decency.

Maybe that's asking for too much from some, but I think it's something worth reminding the majority of.

France has known many waves of immigrants and the country has always been able to cope with it. Anglo-saxon countries have different ways of treating immigrants than we do. You accept communitarianism. We don't. All these " communities " not living together is kind of a new thing for us. We used to never accept accomodations for people who for example don't eat pork because of their faith. If you eat in the canteen and the only meal available contains pork, well we won't force you to eat it but you're gonna have to find a solution on your own. Asking a public school to make different meals for people of different faiths used to be unacceptable. We believe more in " assimilation " rather than integration. We don't ask you to give up your faith but we don't glorify " differences " between citizens.

It's the same thing with the islamic veil problematic. People think that it's an individual freedom and that's all what matters. Well in France we think differently. We believe that all the children of the Republic are equals. They should come to school as equals, without any sign of their faiths or political engagements or whatever. When you wear an islamic veil to go to school, you come with a cultural and religious background that will hold you back from being fully free to learn to think by yourself. It's not a war against islam, or muslims. Even christian crosses and Kippas have been banned. Every religious sign of any sort is forbidden. Whatever you're a Jew, muslim, christian, buddhist etc... It doesn't matter.
We want to give these girls a chance to know how to think by themselves without any influence from their families or environment. Once they leave school, if they decide on their own to keep wearing the veil. So be it. It's their right to do so. But when they're in school, they have to take it off, for their own sake. Same thing with Hallal, Kosher etc... Keep that in the private sphere. There should be no accomodation at all.

 

[Gorger]

Wow.

I expect people to show a certain level of respect towards others' beliefs, especially when said beliefs have no bearing on them whilst being held dearly by others.

Not so much in France anymore.
I guess the ability to take the piss out of Islam (and in doing so offend all its followers) trumps showing respect there. Muslims don't eat pork, well then that settles school lunches from now, pork only.

Showing others respect isn't mandatory, it's an expectation of decency.

Maybe that's asking for too much from some, but I think it's something worth reminding the majority of.

The right to satirize, mock and ridicule authority figures, political parties and religions is some of the most important principles we must maintain to uphold our freedom of speech. People will always be offended, and it's impossible to say anything if our right to offend is taken away from us.

You have totally missed the essence of a free society if you think censorship is the way to go just to spare peoples feelings about their ideologies and personal beliefs.

 

[Gorger]

No other prior event had me add more people/friends to my Shitlist than this.

In other news, I'm pleased to learn that the king and queen of Jordan (that's where I'm from) will be joining the march in Paris. I hope more leaders of Middle Eastern/Muslim nations would do so.


Don't know if posted, Steven Fry chimed in: http://www.stephenfry.com/2015/01/10/you-must-mock/

 

[Skyzard]

Like he said, anything you say is very likely to offend at least one group of people.

Personally, I don't place much value in "beliefs," but even if I did, it would be pretty tough to operate in a way that offends no one.

I don't think it's that hard to be remotely decent.

You may offend people as you go through life inadvertently but this isn't the same thing.

Have you seen the cartoon ?? (obv don't click if you don't want to see it)
Translation (roughly) : "Mahomet overwhelmed by fundamentalists" "It's hard to be loved by idiots"
Is that mocking muslims ? Because to me that sounds exactly like what every sane person is saying : that radicals aren't representative of all muslims, and that if there is a god he doesn't approve of them. This is what they died for. I'm beginning to seriously wonder how many people even bothered to see it, and if they did then people are clearly lacking some analyzing skills these days.

And french citizens do not have to abide by religions' rules. We value freedom of religion but most of all we value freedom from religion, and it is how it should be.

Regarding your last bit, the vast majority of public schools (with muslim or jewish students at least) provide an alternative to pork. And the ban on burka is complicated, but even imams and relevant muslims in the community said that seeing the burqa in France was shameful and worrying, as it started with the growth of radical Islam in France. As much as I believe women should wear what they want, it is incredibly naive to think the majority of these women have any choice in the matter.

I think you may have missed some of the other drawings that are considerably more offensive.

It's also assumptive and damaging to think the majority of the women don't have a choice - that they were all forced to wear it against their will.
With the damage and danger being that they are now imprisoned in their homes, being even more dependent on the brutish mulsim husband they all apparently have.

France has known many waves of immigrants and the country has always been able to cope with it. Anglo-saxon countries have different ways of treating immigrants than we do. You accept communitarianism. We don't. All these " communities " not living together is kind of a new thing for us. We used to never accept accomodations for people who for example don't eat pork because of their faith. If you eat in the canteen and the only meal available contains pork, well we won't force you to eat it but you're gonna have to find a solution on your own. Asking a public school to make different meals for people of different faiths used to be unacceptable. We believe more in " assimilation " rather than integration. We don't ask you to give up your faith but we don't glorify " differences " between citizens.

It's the same thing with the islamic veil problematic. People think that it's an individual freedom and that's all what matters. Well in France we think differently. We believe that all the children of the Republic are equals. They should come to school as equals, without any sign of their faiths or political engagements or whatever. When you wear an islamic veil to go to school, you come with a cultural and religious background that will hold you back from being fully free to learn to think by yourself. It's not a war against islam, or muslims. Even christian crosses and Kippas have been banned. Every religious sign of any sort is forbidden. Whatever you're a Jew, muslim, christian, buddhist etc... It doesn't matter.
We want to give these girls a chance to know how to think by themselves without any influence from their families or environment. Once they leave school, if they decide on their own to keep wearing the veil. So be it. It's their right to do so. But when they're in school, they have to take it off, for their own sake. Same thing with Hallal, Kosher etc... Keep that in the private sphere. There should be no accomodation at all.

I think lacking accommodation is a nice way of putting it, but it seems a lot more like intolerance and targeting.

 

[azyless]

I think you may have missed some of the other drawings that are considerably more offensive.

I have seen a fair share of them, I don't find them hateful towards Muslims in any way. It's vulgar and distasteful but from what I've seen they all have a message and the last thing I want is for religion to be exempt from criticism.

It's also assumptive and damaging to think the majority of the women don't have a choice - that they were all forced to wear it against their will.
With the damage and danger being that they are now imprisoned in their homes, being even more dependent on the brutish mulsim husband they all apparently have.

Did you miss the part about imams saying that burqas were a sign of radical Islam growing ? Are they generalizing their own religion ?
I'm the first person to admit that France has issues with islamophobia but denying that fundamentalism is growing is naive and ignorant.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I don't think it's that hard to be remotely decent.

You may offend people as you go through life inadvertently but this isn't the same thing.

What would you put on the cover of your biting satirical magazine, rainbows and unicorns?

I presume you wouldn't criticise anyone because whichever target you pick you will be offending someone.

 

[Skyzard]

What would you put on the cover of your biting satirical magazine, rainbows and unicorns?

I presume you wouldn't criticise anyone because whichever target you pick you will be offending someone.

You can laugh at whoever you want, for whatever reason.

You can point out any trouble in the world and you pick the belief of having a prophet that they believe shouldn't be drawn, especially not ridiculously so - while having some extremism vibe to it. Because that wasn't what people were talking about and as a magazine you should know that.

Good job.

Did you miss the part about imams saying that burqas were a sign of radical Islam growing ? Are they generalizing their own religion ?
I'm the first person to admit that France has issues with islamophobia but denying that fundamentalism is growing is naive and ignorant.

I don't even disagree that burqas are trouble. But banning them is very hostile.

I have seen a fair share of them, I don't find them hateful towards Muslims in any way. It's vulgar and distasteful but from what I've seen they all have a message and the last thing I want is for religion to be exempt from criticism.

We'll have to disagree there.


Religious people make up a large portion of the world. When you offend (and insult) people generally like that, it's just plain wrong. You can do it legally if your country says you can, but you shouldn't, especially when things aren't exactly on great terms.

Detrimental and negative aspects of religion and religious ideas should never be off limits. There's no disagreement there. If the purpose to make sure violence, equality and all the things that are good for people are where they should be if you know what I mean.
But generally insulting peoples' firmly held beliefs of not drawing the prophet..why. Just because you can?
It's disrespectful and that is insulting, especially the way it was done.

 

[Mimosa97]

I think lacking accommodation is a nice way of putting it, but it seems a lot more like intolerance and targeting.

You didn't get my point.

How is it intolerant if you refuse any accomodation whether it's for Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists etc...

France is a laic/secular country. We don't see ourselves living in a country where communities live separated from each other, like in the US. We don't hold " individual freedom " above all of our values.
We're not a conglomerate of communities where everyone can ask to bend the rules in order to accomodate his will. We don't really care what you believe in or where you come from. We don't glorify differences. We're one nation. When i see French people from different ethnicities, religion etc... The only thing i see are french citizens. Do you know that in France ethnic or religious census are forbidden by the law ? I know it's a pretty standard thing in the UK and the US but not in France. And i like the way we've been doing things.

Thinking that prohibiting schoolgrils from wearing the veil while in school and not offering hallal meals in canteens are signs of islamophobia and intolerance just proves that you've got no clue whatsoever about what intelorance really is.

 

[DECK'ARD]

You can laugh at whoever you want, for whatever reason.

You can point out any trouble in the world and you pick the belief of having a prophet that they believe shouldn't be drawn, especially not ridiculously so - while having some extremism vibe to it. Because that wasn't what people were talking about and as a magazine you should know that.

Good job.

What?

 

[Skyzard]

You didn't get my point.

How is it intolerant if you refuse any accomodation whether it's for Jews, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists etc...

France is a laic/secular country. We don't see ourselves living in a country where communities live separated from each other, like in the US. We don't hold " individual freedom " above all of our values.
We're not a conglomerate of communities where everyone can ask to bend the rules in order to accomodate his will. We don't really care what you believe in or where you come from. We don't glorify differences. We're one nation. When i see French people from different ethnicities, religion etc... The only thing i see are french citizens. Do you know that in France ethnic or religious census are forbidden by the law ? I know it's a pretty standard thing in the UK and the US but not in France. And i like the way we've been doing things.

Thinking that prohibiting schoolgrils from wearing the veil while in school and not offering hallal meals in canteens are signs of islamophobia and intolerance just proves that you've got no clue whatsoever about what intelorance really is.

I'm afraid you don't live in the paradise you think you do.

For one, you have mosques and churches right?

They're next to go are they?

What?

You asked about what I would put on the front page of their magazine that should be edgy. I responded about what they could have done (anything basically) and what they chose to actually target, which was less about extremism and more about a drawing of the muslim prophet.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Edit: Actually forget it, nothing is being listened to or understood.

 

[Me_Marcadet]

I'm afraid you don't live in the paradise you think you do.

For one, you have mosques and churches right?

They're next to go are they?

A hundred years ago we established that the State will no more give money to the churches and that while the freedom of cult and right of free thought was sacred, the State will not give one cent to help people practice their religion.
The state even seized lot of assets from the catholic church and there were events where people got killed.

Why would muslims who freshly got there would earn the privilege of not be treated the same as all the french citizens ?

 

[Ayato Kanzaki]

How they insulted all muslims? For one, they drew their prophet and did so in a mocking fashion.

As many already said, muslim rules don't have to apply to non-muslims. It is very arrogant to think the contrary. The same kind of arrogance that led christians to start the crusades a few centuries ago. As for the CH case, most of their depictions of the prophet were actually showing him as a reasonable guy. Where are the insults?


The ironic thing about this, is that the prophet forbade drawings of him because he didn't want to be turned into an idol. but those who are angry that someone else drew him, to the point that they're ready to kill for it, or approve of violence against the drawers, sure as hell DID turn him into an idol.

 

[vpance]

The religious beliefs you hold dearly are open to be mocked, insulted, laughed at and made fun of. As are mine (Christian). That's part of living in a free society where the right to express how one feels trumps the right to silence non believers.

Satire is not a hate crime.

Let's be honest here. The line between satire and general harassment can be exceedingly thin. If I joke about someone's culture to their face that could be construed as harassment. If you do it at work you're sure to be fired. But if you write those same jokes or draw pictures and have them published in the media it can be labeled as satire and is under the protection of free speech.

I am all for free speech but doesn't mean people shouldn't get offended. They will, and the spectrum of what humans are capable of is wide. And since everyone does not play by the same rule of law we get tragic events like this from time to time. It's just a shame it had to happen over some drawings.

 

[Mimosa97]

A hundred years ago we established that the State will no more give money to the churches and that while the freedom of cult and right of free thought was sacred, the State will not give one cent to help people practice their religion.
The state even seized lot of assets from the catholic church and there were events where people got killed.

Why would muslims who freshly got there would earn the privilege of not be treated the same as all the french citizens ?

Stop trying to explain things to him. It's a waste of time.

Funny things is that more and more mosques are built every day in France. No one is saying that people shouldn't have mosques or churches to pray. He just can't understand that there's a difference between allowing people to practice their faith, and bending the laws to accomodate everyone.

The public service is religion free. It means that if you go to a public school or work for the government you don't have the right to go wearing a cross or a veil or a Kippa. If you're in the streets, or at home, or if you work in the private sector then you can do whatever you want. But i guess it's too hard for some people to understand that all isn't meant to make religious people lives more difficult but in fact to avoid tensions between communities and to make everyone equal.

 

[Me_Marcadet]

Charlie Hebdo was printed in very limited quantity and you can avoid all the offensive drawings really easily. People got offended because other medias and wrong intented persons put the drawings out of the context of the magazine where they were published and were saying "look at the offensives drawings, they insult you and have no respect for your beliefs".
If you don't aprove of the drawings, just do like the big majority of french people and just ignore those crazy old motherfuckers.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I don't even disagree that burqas are trouble. But banning them is very hostile.

You know what's hostile? Killing people for drawing cartoons, no matter how much offense you managed to incur from looking at them.

 

[Skyzard]

You know what's hostile? Killing people for drawing cartoons, no matter how much offense you managed to incur from looking at them.

Really?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

You know what's hostile? Killing people for drawing cartoons, no matter how much offense you managed to incur from looking at them.

I dont know man, that sounds like a grey area.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I dont know man, that sounds like a grey area.

Unfortunately, that appears to be the case for some people.

 

[kamorra]

Accidentally deleted my post with individual replies but this will do for a few of the same:


"This is what they think"

...as an excuse to post racist imagery - to clarify, a black woman who is in their government as a monkey.


Satire takes wit.

See, you really don't get satire. That's ok.

 

[Phantast2k]

Agence France-Presse (@AFP) #BREAKING: Arson attack at German paper that printed Charlie Hebdo cartoons https://twitter.com/AFP/status/554157859173191682
The paper is Hamburger Morgenpost: http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2015-01/hamburger-morgenpost-brandanschlag

 

[Mac_Lane]

I'm really appalled at Skyzard's posts. We don't give a damn if CH's cartoons offended Muslims. Blasphemy is not a crime anymore, get over it, dude.

 

[Chariot]

Agence France-Presse (@AFP) #BREAKING: Arson attack at German paper that printed Charlie Hebdo cartoons https://twitter.com/AFP/status/554157859173191682
The paper is Hamburger Morgenpost: http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2015-01/hamburger-morgenpost-brandanschlag

Holy shit.

 

[Yagharek]

The religious beliefs you hold dearly are open to be mocked, insulted, laughed at and made fun of. As are mine (Christian). That's part of living in a free society where the right to express how one feels trumps the right to silence non believers.

Satire is not a hate crime.

This is the crux of it really.

If I were to criticise (or mock) your belief, your reaction to it would be a judgement of your character and strength of faith, just as the manner of my criticism would be a judgement of mine.

Personally, I don't mock people's beliefs (except scientologists) because that would be rude. But I do criticise the beliefs from a philosophical standpoint. I think I can do that politely (and have had civil discussions on the matter with very committed religious people.

I tend to think that someone who is confident in their faith can take on board criticism or counter-evidence, and not be fazed by it because they believe what they do. I think people who have a weaker faith are probably more likely to respond with anger when their faith is challenged even in polite discussion.

 

[ComputerMKII]

New thread for today's peace march: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=146897657

 

[le-seb]

If they were just laughing at extremists, that wouldn't be an issue. They were heavily insulting every muslim.

Were they?
How so?

 

[chadskin]

The four victims killed in the Paris grocery store assault:

- Yoav Hattab
- Philippe Braham
- Yohan Cohen
- Francois Saada

Rest in Peace.

 

[Dilly]

If they were just laughing at extremists, that wouldn't be an issue. They were heavily insulting every muslim.

While my post doesn't compare to equate them, WBC and CH both gain financially from spreading messages that insult others, doing so under the banner of free speech.

Wrong.

 

[King_Moc]

Wow.

I expect people to show a certain level of respect towards others' beliefs, especially when said beliefs have no bearing on them whilst being held dearly by others.

Not so much in France anymore.
I guess the ability to take the piss out of Islam (and in doing so offend all its followers) trumps showing respect there. Muslims don't eat pork, well then that settles school lunches from now, pork only.

Showing others respect isn't mandatory, it's an expectation of decency.

Maybe that's asking for too much from some, but I think it's something worth reminding the majority of.

Showing respect to individuals, sure. To the entire belief system though? No, fuck that. Everything should be open to ridicule. Else you end up with bullshit like in Saudi Arabia, where you get flogged for opening your mouth about it.

 

[chadskin]

Agence France-Presse (@AFP) #BREAKING: Arson attack at German paper that printed Charlie Hebdo cartoons https://twitter.com/AFP/status/554157859173191682
The paper is Hamburger Morgenpost: http://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2015-01/hamburger-morgenpost-brandanschlag

Police in Germany say they have detained two men suspected of an arson attack against a newspaper that republished the cartoons of French weekly Charlie Hebdo.

The newspaper Hamburger Morgenpost said on its website the overnight arson attack destroyed several files in its archive, but didn't injure anyone.

Hamburg police said it had detained the two young men near the newspaper building.

Spokeswoman Karina Sadowsky didn't give any details about the men and said police were still investigating the incident.

The Hamburg tabloid newspaper published the Charlie Hebdo cartoons the day after the attack against the newspaper in Paris to express its solidarity with the slain journalists.

Several other national and local German newspapers also published the cartoons. They are now getting police protection.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/392c...attack-german-paper-published-french-cartoons

:/

 

[Jisgsaw]

Wow.

I expect people to show a certain level of respect towards others' beliefs, especially when said beliefs have no bearing on them whilst being held dearly by others.

Not so much in France anymore.
I guess the ability to take the piss out of Islam (and in doing so offend all its followers) trumps showing respect there. Muslims don't eat pork, well then that settles school lunches from now, pork only.

Showing others respect isn't mandatory, it's an expectation of decency.

Maybe that's asking for too much from some, but I think it's something worth reminding the majority of.

Actually, and I find that somewhat unacceptable, most of the cantines removed pork almost entirely of their menue, because they normally have to offer a second dish for those who don't eat pork.
That's one thing were a minority dictates th eway of living of the majority, a bit odd.

Your link explicitely tells it's a move from the far right; don't take that as usual french political stance.

I
It's one of the values and beliefs in Islam that you don't make an idol of the prophet, which is mostly for not idolizing a physical object. When it's that restricted, it's even more offensive when a drawing is done to mock.

I don't see the connection there...
(and BTW, Mahommet was hardly ever mocked himself, especially compared to the Christ; the jabbs were at the extremists).

This article was already posted, but that's my stand point on free speech: it's up to the public to judge the quality/veracity of what is put out.

 

[Naked Snake]

Don't know of this was posted but it's funny:

A James O’Brien masterclass in how to deal with people demanding that Muslims apologise for #CharlieHebdo (audio)
http://audioboom.com/boos/2784684-a...nding-that-muslims-apologise-for-charliehebdo

 

[raindoc]

The Kunsthaus Graz art museum reprogrammed it's facade:

http://youtu.be/eD9bODAL0Zk

 

[Rush_Khan]

Don't know of this was posted but it's funny:

A James O’Brien masterclass in how to deal with people demanding that Muslims apologise for #CharlieHebdo (audio)
http://audioboom.com/boos/2784684-a...nding-that-muslims-apologise-for-charliehebdo

He regularly does stuff like that. I remember when he interviewed UKIP leader Nigel Farage and ripped him apart. Really good debater.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Don't know of this was posted but it's funny:

A James O’Brien masterclass in how to deal with people demanding that Muslims apologise for #CharlieHebdo (audio)
http://audioboom.com/boos/2784684-a...nding-that-muslims-apologise-for-charliehebdo

This is hilarious.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Homage to policeman Ahmed Merabet in his hometown (Livry-Gargan)

 

[Flintty]

No, they just access murdered children's voicemail, leading to the parents thinking she was alive.

Yeah I'm not saying the UK press are saints but mostly I don't think they'd put a live hostage situation in jeopardy just to be the big guys with the exclusive. I'd hope not anyway.