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Charlottesville alt-right white nationalist torch rally

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P

Primethius

Banned
Aaronrules380 said:
Designating neo nazis specifically as a terrorist organization is essentially useless because then they'd just find a way to rebrand under a different name and banner. Hate speech laws can't be effective unless they're vague enough to apply to a broad range of situations rather than just specific groups
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So just keep designating the rebranding or be more general? The point is that free speech limitations already exist for terrorist organizations and support thereof.

The dumb slippery slope argument that gets trotted out just doesn't work in the context of current US laws and regulations.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Darryl M R said:
This is why white moderates are dangerous

boogie2988_middle_by_digi_matrix-db3h3ud.gif
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This is a stance to take with civil discourse on a topic that shouldn't be obviously black and white, and you can still take a side and see the arguments the other side is making and try to find a middle spot there. To doggedly go for the "middle" especially in circumstances like this is fool hardy at best, enabling hate and ignorance at worst.
 
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TyrantGuardian

Member
Today ITT I learned that the american moderate is the worst type of coward. Your country is literally on the brink of a race war and your response is to worry about how you can remain seated on your high horse the longest.
 
J

jtb

Banned
TyrantGuardian said:
No one is saying it would. We're saying is the basic fucking first step that every civilized country enacts. The US isn't a special snowflake where it wouldn't work, you're just several decades behind in enacting proper hate speech laws.



BLM wouldn't fall under hate speech in any country that had hate speech laws. What are you even talking about? Its incredibly simple.
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We're not talking about "any country," we're talking about this country.

You clearly have no understanding of or interest in American politics, so are you only in this thread to remind yourself how perfect you are from your sanctimonious perch?

Primethius said:
So just keep designating the rebranding or be more general? The point is that free speech limitations already exist for terrorist organizations and support thereof.

The dumb slippery slope argument that gets trotted out just doesn't work in the context of current US laws and regulations.
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Is this a defense of the status quo (or at least the laws as written, if not executed)? Because I largely agree that the status quo is pretty sufficient in cases like these.
 
D

djplaeskool

Member
Geist- said:
Terrorist groups shouldn't have those rights.
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Well our glorious POTUS has decided that white nationalist extremism isn't important to keep tabs on, so how do we face this without creating a massive legal incident?
Serious, with Trump in charge, and a rather impotent legislature, how do we even move forward, because this is a federal issue.
 
P

Psychoward

Banned
Eusis said:
This is a stance to take with civil discourse on a topic that shouldn't be obviously black and white, and you can still take a side and see the arguments the other side is making and try to find a middle spot there. To doggedly go for the "middle" especially in circumstances like this is fool hardy at best, enabling hate and ignorance at worst.
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He was referring to Jontron's white supremacist tweets
 
O

OriginalPoe

Banned
There's free speech, and then there is associating with a genocidal regime from the 1940s.

Nazis need to be squashed out immediately. This is not up for discussion IMO. No Nazi congregations, no Nazi paraphernalia in protests. We CANNOT risk allowing Nazis to prosper in ANY WAY.

EDIT: Don't call them "neo Nazis." Just call them what they want to be: Nazis.
 
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titiklabingapat

Member
There is no such thing as a 'peaceful' KKK and neo-Nazi rally. The whole point of the rally is to, well, rally people to exterminate other people due to the color of their skin.
 
A

Aaronrules380

Member
Primethius said:
So just keep designating the rebranding? The point is that free speech limitations already exist for terrorist organizations and support thereof.

The dumb slippery slope argument that gets trotted out just doesn't work in the context of current US laws and regulations.
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Sure, you could do that, but you're still ultimately just wasting time and energy because you aren't doing anything to actually stop the ideas, just the groups. If anything, I think it's more dangerous to separate these groups from existing brandings. After all, part of the current rise of the altright is that they found ways to alter their branding to seem less evil. People are going to be more susceptible to a shitty message if they see it coming from a group that they haven't already been taught to be a shitty evil group like the nazis
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
jtb said:
We're not talking about "any country," we're talking about this country.

You clearly have no understanding of or interest in American politics, so are you only in this thread to remind yourself how perfect you are from your sanctimonious perch?
Click to expand...

Or maybe the US just isn't that super special unlike what you get taught in school. Hate speech laws work. No one has been unfairly attacked under them anywhere else. Sort your shit out.

Btw, still wondering what you were saying about Jim Crow.
 
P

Primethius

Banned
jtb said:
We're not talking about "any country," we're talking about this country.

You clearly have no understanding of or interest in American politics, so are you only in this thread to remind yourself how perfect you are from your sanctimonious perch?



Is this a defense of the status quo (or at least the laws as written, if not executed)? Because I largely agree that the status quo is pretty sufficient in cases like these.
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It's an argument against the slippery slope talking point.
 
M

minor effort

Banned
titiklabingapat said:
There is no such thing as a 'peaceful' KKK rally. The whole point of the rally is to, well, rally people to exterminate other people due to the color of their skin.
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And when the Klan isn't busy actually killing people, their demonstrations are deliberately held to intimidate and silence people.

There's no good-faith exchange of ideas going on when the Klan rolls into town for a rally.
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
OriginalPoe said:
There's free speech, and then there is associating with a genocidal regime from the 1940s.

Nazis need to be squashed out immediately. This is not up for discussion IMO. No Nazi congregations, no Nazi paraphernalia in protests. We CANNOT risk allowing Nazis to prosper in ANY WAY.
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Really, that's like a basic rule. Fine, you don't want somebody to decide what's hate speech or not, but at very least fucking ban the symbols associated with proven genocide. It's distasteful and has nothing to do with freedom.
 
P

Primethius

Banned
Aaronrules380 said:
Sure, you could do that, but you're still ultimately just wasting time and energy because you aren't doing anything to actually stop the ideas, just the groups. If anything, I think it's more dangerous to separate these groups from existing brandings. After all, part of the current rise of the altright is that they found ways to alter their branding to seem less evil. People are going to be more susceptible to a shitty message if they see it coming from a group that they haven't already been taught to be a shitty evil group like the nazis
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Sure we could do something like brand them a terrorist organization.

But let's not fucking do anything and just hope tomorrow is a better day!
 
J

Joe

Member
Friendly reminder: this rally was a well-planned event that was preceded 12 hours earlier by a rally of torch-wielding neo-Nazis chanting "blood and soil".
 
R

Rock And Roll

Member
I'm what most of you would call a moderate and I never thought I'd say it but violence is the only answer here. These people are literal Nazis. If given the opportunity they would kill every minority. They want a white America. There is no reasoning with them. They will continue to be emboldened with each passing day there is not aggressive response and they will continue to attack visible minorities.

You can have shitty opinions. If you think abortion/gay marriage/pot etc... should be illegal, fine. If you believe yourself to be superior to someone due to the colour of your skin/background, fine. I think you're an idiot and want nothing to do with you, but you are allowed to have your shitty opinions and the vast majority of the population won't agree with you. Once you cross the line and want an ethnic cleansing, you need to go.

Stay safe GAF and I hope your country sorts this shit out ASAP.
 
N

NHarmonic.

Member
djplaeskool said:
This is what law enforcement is supposed to be there for.
Monitor the situation, and break it up if it gets out of hand. (And seeing some videos on Twitter, police definitely let shit rock that should've been ceased immediately)
We've had like, 5 or 6 of these KKK-ish gatherings in Georgia over the past decade, and either the police end up telling people to go home (usually in the face of counter-protest), or it just ends up as a BBQ with your really racist relatives that might get a short blurb on the local news.
It's a prickly conversation that we're going to have to have, but I think with our current administration, will be difficult to finish.
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I'm still amazed at how they can be allowed to do that. What's the outcome or final objective of people that meet under banners of hate, racism, and violence? I'm pretty sure germany doesn't allow this shit, so why is the rest of the world making everything possible for them to be "respected"?

This is not freedom of speech at all, this is defending hate groups in a weird attempt of validating violence, probably because even the fucking president of the US feels identified with these kind of groups, even throwing the "both sides violence" in a day when a terrorist ran over people that were anti-racism.

This is so irrational in the end. If Hillary was elected maybe we wouldn't have this fuckers crawling from their caves and feeling in power and validated.
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
excelsiorlef said:
Fuck yes for him going straight to neo-Nazi instead of any of the softer words
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Bizarrely this could be the wakeup call that America needed. Up until now the common thing for those on the right to do is to say "Oh, so everyone that disagree with you is a Nazi?" but now there's really no wiggling out of what was on display here. The whole country and the world are seeing what's become of this country.
 
O

OriginalPoe

Banned
KingSnake said:
Really, that's like a basic rule. Fine, you don't want somebody to decide what's hate speech or not, but at very least fucking ban the symbols associated with proven genocide. It's distasteful and has nothing to do with freedom.
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I cannot fucking fathom that people are even debating this. It is not about free speech, it's about terrorism and a DOCUMENTED AND WELL-READ GENOCIDAL AGENDA.

BLM and Antifa do not have any of this.

EDIT: Oh yeah and don't forget that reddit.com/r/the_donald had a top post for the last few days about this rally promoting it. That subreddit promoted a Nazi rally that ended in violence.
 
A

Aaronrules380

Member
OriginalPoe said:
I cannot fucking fathom that people are even debating this. It is not about free speech, it's about terrorism and a DOCUMENTED AND WELL-READ GENOCIDAL AGENDA.

BLM and Antifa do not have any of this.
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There are people who think BLM is a terrorist group. They're wrong of course, but what happens when you let someone make a judgement call and the person who makes it is one of those people? How do you guarantee that won't happen
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
Aaronrules380 said:
Of course, but that doesn't mean you can't make it easier for them.

I'm also not convinced hate speech laws can stop hate groups from rising in power, especially not in the modern internet era where it's easier than ever to communicate anonymously.
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What happened in Germany between WW 2 and now?
 
O

OriginalPoe

Banned
Aaronrules380 said:
There are people who think BLM is a terrorist group. They're wrong of course, but what happens when you let someone make a judgement call and the person who makes it is one of those people? How do you guarantee that won't happen
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BECAUSE NAZIS ARE AN ESTABLISHED THING SINCE THE 1940S AND HAVE NEVER STOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT WHITE SUPREMACY BY KILLING OTHERS!!!
 
P

Primethius

Banned
Aaronrules380 said:
There are people who think BLM is a terrorist group. They're wrong of course, but what happens when you let someone make a judgement call and the person who makes it is one of those people? How do you guarantee that won't happen
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THAT CAN ALREADY HAPPEN

This is not a good counter argument to anything.

At all.

Holy shit.
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
Aaronrules380 said:
There are people who think BLM is a terrorist group. They're wrong of course, but what happens when you let someone make a judgement call and the person who makes it is one of those people? How do you guarantee that won't happen
Click to expand...

Who cares what people think? The law doesn't suddenly bend to popular opinion when it comes to hate speech. How naive are you?
 
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