You don't even need to go that early, air in 1960s and 70s were still very polluted. My former boss told me how he used to take coal home for heating when he was a kid.
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China is spending $361 billion dollars into renewable energy projects by 2020
- Thread starter jerry113
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You don't even need to go that early, air in 1960s and 70s were still very polluted. My former boss told me how he used to take coal home for heating when he was a kid.
Joel Was Right
Gold Member
Why isn't climate change considered a national security threat by these nations?
If shorelines are going to be eroded quicker; agriculture devastated leading to mass migration; floods and waves growing to Hollywood levels etc, why would governments allow this to become a subject up for a vote? Why is mankind's existence up for partisan games? Why allow fossil fuel companies and lobbyists determine the future of the country?
Renewable energy is going to cost jobs? Has anyone told the people who live next to ballistic missile silos that they're likely first up to die in war? Should they get a vote to whether or not nukes should be placed there?
If shorelines are going to be eroded quicker; agriculture devastated leading to mass migration; floods and waves growing to Hollywood levels etc, why would governments allow this to become a subject up for a vote? Why is mankind's existence up for partisan games? Why allow fossil fuel companies and lobbyists determine the future of the country?
Renewable energy is going to cost jobs? Has anyone told the people who live next to ballistic missile silos that they're likely first up to die in war? Should they get a vote to whether or not nukes should be placed there?
thehypocrite
Member
Money
I dont think the US is as strong as it used to be.
Don't forget about the mass migrations that will lead to the greatest refugee crises of our time. If we think the situation with Syria and Europe is difficult to deal with right now, that's just going to be peanuts compared to what's to come. Millions of refugees escaping the shorelines and spilling over countries' borders everywhere.
The majority of the world's populations lives along shorelines, especially in the developing countries that will be affected by climate change first and foremost.
Joel Was Right
Gold Member
This isn't really a good answer.
SolarPowered
Member
Which governments? The best thing developing countries can usually do is influence and educate the richer/more powerful countries that can produce large changes in WW climate change policy. If you are talking about the USA then it has been acknowledged by the Obama administration AND the Pentagon of all places. It is very much considered a national and worldwide threat as far as the top brass of the military is concerned.
https://www.defense.gov/News/Article/Article/612710
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/feb/7/pentagon-orders-commanders-to-prioritize-climate-c/
http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2016/06/republicans-trying-to-stop-pentagon-climate-plan-000149
I partly think the US is failing on the issue because we play by the rules, political power in the government isn't centralized to the degree it is in some other countries (China for example) and extreme partisanship has brought the US government to a screeching halt on some occasions. I could have sworn I read about Russia pointing out that our need to follow the rule of law made it easier for them to manipulate the USA's elections and in China's case they don't need a mandate from the people to invest massive amounts of money in projects, so they're free to do what they need to do in cases of emergency. No doubt their styles of government (dictatorship and one party rule) come with issues, but I'm sure you've heard the saying "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."
Expensive and long term multi-decade plans are pretty hard to maintain and execute when administrations change every 8 years (at best), priorities shift and supporters in government eventually leave or fall out of power. Just ask NASA, government researchers and climate change scientists today. It kinda sucks when science advances only as far as the short term thinking of politicians allows.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
That's because the people making these decisions are not really smart. Even for their own interests.
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
holy shit $361 billion
hope we can still save this forsaken planet
hope we can still save this forsaken planet
paradise_circus
Member
We still had worldwide record investments in green energy despite the very cheap oil. The US will also have record installations in green energy even after Trump will be the potus.
Imperfected
Member
I'm thinking someone left off a "million". I hope so, anyway.
Hey, this reminds me, how even at the "grassroots" of democracy, the local township planning commissioner is a developer and a was a primary delegate to Trump. Oh, and the one that I live in voted an ordinance to ban solar panels because of aesthetics.
Most people ignored that last one, luckily, but America is going to have a long time to catch up if landowners are continually using the lower rungs of democracy to jerk themselves off.
Most people ignored that last one, luckily, but America is going to have a long time to catch up if landowners are continually using the lower rungs of democracy to jerk themselves off.
ClosingADoor
Member
America willing to let another country take over a multi trillion dollar industry. And I thought you guys were the capitalists. Amazing.
dragonelite
Member
Dam 8 years...
Haven't heard of the Great Smog of London I take it
Click below for some of the pictures
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=great+smog+of+london&t=ffab&iax=1&ia=images
ThatStupidLion
Member
"China numba one!"
Fudgepuppy
Banned
I get the feeling that the Chinese politicians are like "Quick! Be a cool nation now that everyone thinks America is the most stupid and evil country in the world!".
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
Yep. It's little wonder worthless diarrhea spits like Trump can get elected when so many local governments are rotten to the core.
This year, activism has a better chance if it starts from the bottom and works its way up.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Welcome to the human race.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
Well, then you've missed the last few years of how China has shifted it's focus on it's own major pollution problems.
A lot of this is driven by their coal issue on a few fronts.
1) Coal takes up a lot of water, and they don't have nearly enough water supply to keep up with more coal expansion
2) Renewables are cheaper. Even though you read about new coal plants being built, that is because they were in the pipeline years ago and they are meant to replace more dirty burning plants, while at the same time idling far longer on average because energy is produced from renewables.
3) Coal is literally choking their country with smog
China is really heading into a renewable revolution, that's not an exaggeration. They peaked their coal use in 2013, seven years ahead of the IEA's initial assessment of their coal use (which they have already gone back and revised and concluded that China has most likely peaked coal use in 2013).
CyclopsRock
Member
The first paragraph of the OP represents a logical fallacy, because there are benefits to renewable energy beyond just global warming.
They actually reduced hacking and cyber-espionage on United States, partly to reduce profile and partly because they weren't half as good as Russians at it lol
Not really, China has invested a lot over the years on hydro through dams - the three gorges of course being the biggest one.
Fact is that if you have a growing middle class in the hundreds of millions you need to find a lot of different types of energy as you can't be dependent on one source. Besides which as FDR said, "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way. "
Their leaders know they can't overstep if they want to continue their regime of power and pollution will be a deciding factor.
It's such a sensitive topic, everyone in China knows what pm2.5 means
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
People like to think of China as some evil communist dictatorship but they've always been primarily concerned with long term survival. It just happens to be the case that when you've got a billion and a half hungry mouths to feed - most of them poor and uneducated - and the majority of your country is a century behind the western world in terms of industry and infrastructure, that you're going to have to take a much more drastic approach when it comes to government.
A lot of the the things China does seem to go against western democratic ideals, but truthfully if the US system of government can't even efficiently run an educated, resource rich, developed nation of ~300 million, who in their right mind would argue it to be wise to apply a similar system to a much more difficult part of the world?
Applying democracy on the central government of mainland China would be a catastrophe. For now it works just fine, the process of law making is efficient and flexible in my experience, we westerners tend not to realize that far too often. Of course that doesn't change the fact that some old farts from the state council and the standing committee think they have the right to control the flow of information or prevent others from expressing their legitimate opinion. It's a Confucianist society after all - without the nicer parts of Confucianism.
PdotMichael
Banned
You didn't.
Otherwise we could see effects on the American CO2 emmision output. Any total reduction of a pure national producer metric happens through outsourcing of industry to other countries like China or SEA countries. Obama wasn't some incredible saint in the name of climate protection in his 8 years of president.
Ron Mexico
Member
Far too cynical to take any of these claims as China making any kind of investment because it's "good".
Will it have a positive effect? Yes. Renewable energy will do that. But if there was an industry that would prop up Chinese currency and keep their economy afloat st the cost of destroying the environment, don't think for a second they wouldn't do it.
I know gamechanger87 has done all kinds of research on the Chinese economy. Hoping he chimes in.
Will it have a positive effect? Yes. Renewable energy will do that. But if there was an industry that would prop up Chinese currency and keep their economy afloat st the cost of destroying the environment, don't think for a second they wouldn't do it.
I know gamechanger87 has done all kinds of research on the Chinese economy. Hoping he chimes in.
China is accused of dumping solar panels, killing American solar manufacturers. Extremely bad for the the longterm viability of solar if Chinese manufacturers lock up marketshare with market manipulation.
PdotMichael
Banned
Love the "they only do that because they get something out of it!" relativism.
Like a climate protection policy is indeed a net profit for a country. It's a well-known fact. The USA would get more out of it as well but the powerful lobbies are capable of putting the interest of a small group over the national interest.
Except that they're doing it for political and economic reasons. Air pollution that they're currently suffering from is liable to produce a health crisis in china, a negative externality, not to mention that the populace isn't at all enamoured with the current air quality situation. Climate change is another externality that has to be compensated for, Americans like to pretend these things don't actually exist.
Nobody should expect any country to go into renewables simply because it is "good", but rather that there are negative consequences of not doing so beyond immediate economic concerns such as job creation. That is why people think that Republicans are fucking dumbasses, their fantasies have overtaken them such that their hatred has convinced them that even the immediate economic benefits aren't worth it.
Once Florida gets his butt under water maybe they will suddenly realize something is happening? Home insurance is already going up in Miami and The Keys.
More Fun To Compute
Member
China well known for caring about carbon emissions.
https://www.chinadialogue.net/artic...-s-longest-burning-fires-China-s-unseen-story
Cynically China want to be involved in renewable energy because it's an industry of the future with a lot of potential for export and they can just steal tech that has been developed at some expense in the west.
https://www.chinadialogue.net/artic...-s-longest-burning-fires-China-s-unseen-story
Cynically China want to be involved in renewable energy because it's an industry of the future with a lot of potential for export and they can just steal tech that has been developed at some expense in the west.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Oh no, they're not pure enough in their intentions!
dragonelite
Member
Aren't they on the forefront of solar tech and ahead of US and EU universities?
thehypocrite
Member
We live in a consumerism society. We have conceived and fostered human interactions based on extraction and consumption as a way to produce economic growth, all cause we are forced to compete against ourselves and never cooperate. That's in part the reason why you have partisanship politics. People really get fixated on the symptoms and not the problems. Our economic model makes us slaves to the dollar and enemies to one another. In order to truly tackle global warming we need to change it completely and reimagine a world, the human interactions and a framework of cooperation, solidarity and sacrifice.
At the moment this is blocked by self interest and self deception incentivized by 💵💵🤑💲
You can keep thinking that the problem lies elsewhere though, that does help to never actually fix it, while humanity goes ever faster into that night.
More Fun To Compute
Member
Maybe. It's easier to be on the forefront when govt hackers give you data stolen from private US companies.
Ron Mexico
Member
Unless I'm misreading you (and I haven't had any coffee this morning so it's possible) I think we're in agreement here.
I am the furthest thing from a climate change denier. I absolutely believe it's real and a threat and even if there were to be advancements for the "wrong" reasons, it's still a net positive.
I guess it's more of me raising an eyebrow to anyone rushing to pat China on the back while discounting what their real motivation would look like. And that sentiment isn't just here, it's evident in all kinds of social media vomit as well. Just another example of how the narrative gets driven all over the place or maybe I'm just an old man.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some clouds to yell at.
People are patting them on the back less because of China's actions but rather the lack of action from the US. Republican politicians have essentially normalized economic stupidity, so people here are constantly surprised at the political will to just do the correct thing.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Yea it's not like republicans were willing to jump in front of busses to oppose anything he did.
Nope just hot air.
PdotMichael
Banned
Which supports my point. I'm not American so I don't care about that football team cheering here.
The USA as nation failed here, it's just the question how hard.
dragonelite
Member
This don't you think western people rather see the EU or US leading in greentech. Now we have China and India leading the way.
adamsappel
Member
There was a time when the Soviet Union put a metal ball into orbit and we took it as a national challenge to put a man on the moon. Now we don't even care that we're being surpassed technologically and economically, as long as rich businesses continue getting richer, even as we harm the planet. smh.
Eh?
I can't remember who, but a super smart guy, probably even the smartest, that's what they're saying you know? He said that China invented global warming.
I'm now beginning to doubt his level of knowledge and intellect
I think he sarcastically meant Trump, not Hawking.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
It's depressing seeing other countries getting their shit together while over here we have people talking about "clean" coal in earnest or bringing snowballs into Congress. If China ends up beating us to the economical punch because such stupidity keeps being indulged then the US honestly deserves it. Getting embarrassed is probably going to be the only way more people open their eyes on this issue.
If advancements such as this come true, China will easily overtake the US as a world leader. The United States is the cause of their pollution problem partially due to the side loading of manufacturing and supposed pollution drift.
If relations are severed to the point that is suggested, it may lead to China even cutting its trade with us which would wreck the US economy.
I didn't want Trump in office, but mow I just hope he doesn't fuck everything up. It seems he's already on course to do that, though.
Also, we will see a complete shift in world power in the next few years. Countries that are suffering from pollution and climate change drastically are going to start to rise. I expect India and other similar countries to lead just as China is on course to do.
There are plenty of brilliant inventors coming up with affordable renewable energy and pollution management ideas and concepts.
If relations are severed to the point that is suggested, it may lead to China even cutting its trade with us which would wreck the US economy.
I didn't want Trump in office, but mow I just hope he doesn't fuck everything up. It seems he's already on course to do that, though.
Also, we will see a complete shift in world power in the next few years. Countries that are suffering from pollution and climate change drastically are going to start to rise. I expect India and other similar countries to lead just as China is on course to do.
There are plenty of brilliant inventors coming up with affordable renewable energy and pollution management ideas and concepts.
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