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China's first domestically built aircraft carrier is launched, second overall

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Its insane how far beyond anyone else in the world the USA's navy and carriers are technology wise.
That's what happens when you outspend every major country in the world combined on your military.

Meanwhile, so much of what we have is in shambles, i.e. education system, healthcare system, infrastructure, etc. Love our priorities.
 

Kinyou

Member
qcOo8mq.gif


There were a few, so not sure if this is the latest or most accurate.
I wonder how much he upkeep of all these carriers costs
 

Hari Seldon

Member
Is nuclear power really mandatory to be considered blue water? In a carrier strike group only the carrier itself and the eventual attached submarine are nuclear powered, the other ships still need a fleet oiler. And a carrier alone don't go anywhere.
The British projected power to the other side of the ocean without a nuclear carrier.

The British had bases all over the world, as does the US. That is why the various islands were so critical in WWII, especially Hawaii. The Japanese fleet could barely make it to Hawaii and didn't have enough fuel to stay around and pound the US pacific fleet into oblivion because they hadn't yet captured all of the island ports along the way like Guam or Midway and loitering around Hawaii without those was impossible.

Bases allow you to rotate escorts in and out of a carrier group as well. I would imagine a carrier sitting in port getting refueled would take a long ass time, and that would be about the juiciest military target imaginable lol.
 

sofa

Member
The British had bases all over the world, as does the US. That is why the various islands were so critical in WWII, especially Hawaii. The Japanese fleet could barely make it to Hawaii and didn't have enough fuel to stay around and pound the US pacific fleet into oblivion because they hadn't yet captured all of the island ports along the way like Guam or Midway and loitering around Hawaii without those was impossible.

Bases allow you to rotate escorts in and out of a carrier group as well. I would imagine a carrier sitting in port getting refueled would take a long ass time, and that would be about the juiciest military target imaginable lol.

I was talking about the Falkland war.
Ships are, more often than not, refueled at sea, but fuel is just one part of the logistical footprint of a carrier strike group, ships of a blue water navy still need port stops for supplies and manteinance, but it's about how much time you can stay operative between them that's relevant and this is related more to ship size and fleet composition than being nuclear or not.
 

Madness

Member
Its insane how far beyond anyone else in the world the USA's navy and carriers are technology wise.

But not for long. Economically China may no longer be the fastest growing economy, I believe India had overtaken it last year, but they are still growing over 6% year over year. Couple that with a defense budget that grew at over double digit aka 10% or more year over year, this year was just shy of 9% and you theoretically have a country that can and probably will be spending $300 billion or more USD in just a few short years. This is where the US will eventually falter. Growth is very little in the US and the military budget is already far more than it needs to be. If China can get a 70000 tonne aircraft carrier, even a limited takeoff one, more for training and small scale power projection in two years, imagine what they can have 20 years from now. The next aircraft carrier is already well underway and will have 85000 tonnes displacement with possible catapult system.
 

4Tran

Member
I was talking about the Falkland war.
Ships are, more often than not, refueled at sea, but fuel is just one part of the logistical footprint of a carrier strike group, ships of a blue water navy still need port stops for supplies and manteinance, but it's about how much time you can stay operative between them that's relevant and this is related more to ship size and fleet composition than being nuclear or not.
Sure, but refueling at sea necessitates a smaller fleet and makes any long range operations that much harder. The Falklands War was a fragile operation and if the Argentinians were more dangerous opponents, the British might well have lost that war. Modern navies don't want to take that kind of risk so they'll use proper fleets for that. China is interested in projecting power into the Indian Ocean, hence their bases in Pakistan and Djibouti. And to achieve that goal, they're going to want to use proper nuclear-powered carriers. The ones they have probably aren't intended for combat, they're more of a stepping stone to the next level.

But not for long. Economically China may no longer be the fastest growing economy, I believe India had overtaken it last year, but they are still growing over 6% year over year. Couple that with a defense budget that grew at over double digit aka 10% or more year over year, this year was just shy of 9% and you theoretically have a country that can and probably will be spending $300 billion or more USD in just a few short years. This is where the US will eventually falter. Growth is very little in the US and the military budget is already far more than it needs to be. If China can get a 70000 tonne aircraft carrier, even a limited takeoff one, more for training and small scale power projection in two years, imagine what they can have 20 years from now. The next aircraft carrier is already well underway and will have 85000 tonnes displacement with possible catapult system.
To be fair, China doesn't have a need (or probably want) to challenge the full strength of the USN. Their needs are more modest; just covering the Western Pacific and Indian Ocean theaters. Accordingly, they're not going to need as many carriers or surface combatants as the US.
 

NH Apache

Banned
But not for long. Economically China may no longer be the fastest growing economy, I believe India had overtaken it last year, but they are still growing over 6% year over year. Couple that with a defense budget that grew at over double digit aka 10% or more year over year, this year was just shy of 9% and you theoretically have a country that can and probably will be spending $300 billion or more USD in just a few short years. This is where the US will eventually falter. Growth is very little in the US and the military budget is already far more than it needs to be. If China can get a 70000 tonne aircraft carrier, even a limited takeoff one, more for training and small scale power projection in two years, imagine what they can have 20 years from now. The next aircraft carrier is already well underway and will have 85000 tonnes displacement with possible catapult system.

Do you have more info on this one in developer?

Edit: Our cvn78 just finished trials and is first of her class. Project started around 2001. 20 years is about right for a carrier cycle.
 

Madness

Member
Do you have more info on this one in developer?

Edit: Our cvn78 just finished trials and is first of her class. Project started around 2001. 20 years is about right for a carrier cycle.

wVFZzPL.jpg


Rumored image. Type 003, they project 85000 tonnes displacement with a catapult system for heavier aircraft, medium bombers.

What's with all the warhawking on GAF today. Jeez if I didn't know better, I could confuse this for a website that caters to gunnutters.

What the hell are you talking about? Thread was created yesterday and it is big news, espexially if you follow military developments. How does this make GAF a website for Gunnutters? If you don't like thread content, don't post but don't thread whine and post in threads you do like.
 

Madness

Member
Yza54J5.jpg


Looks almost identical to the Liaoning but is much slightly larger probably to emphasize more helicopters and jets. Two years to build this is just crazy.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
They should call it a BabyCarrier.

Or the GreatWhale.

Or General Tso's Junk

or any number of quasi racist synonyms.

Why would a whale be racist? Since when do they only have whales in seas around China?
 
Forgive my ignorance, but in what regard does China need to project power towards India?

A lot of trade routes from Africa, Europe and the Middle East runs through or near Indian territorial waters, and China definitely has interests in all three of those places. Projecting power into the Indian Ocean does not necessarily mean confronting India specifically, although if there was a conflict with India it would of course be important to be able to do that also.
 
A lot of trade routes from Africa, Europe and the Middle East runs through or near Indian territorial waters, and China definitely has interests in all three of those places. Projecting power into the Indian Ocean does not necessarily mean confronting India specifically, although if there was a conflict with India it would of course be important to be able to do that also.

Interesting! How keen are the two countries to each other in general?
 

4Tran

Member
Interesting! How keen are the two countries to each other in general?
I think that both would like better trade and closer ties with one another, but two things stand in the way. The first is that China's longest-standing and most important alliance is with Pakistan and Pakistan is India's most serious rival/enemy. The second is that India doesn't want to be second fiddle to anyone, and in a China-India pairing, China is going to be the senior partner. Another standing issue is that China's new trade route goes through Central Asia and Russia, purposefully bypassing India and sea lanes adjacent to India.
 
I think that both would like better trade and closer ties with one another, but two things stand in the way. The first is that China's longest-standing and most important alliance is with Pakistan and Pakistan is India's most serious rival/enemy. The second is that India doesn't want to be second fiddle to anyone, and in a China-India pairing, China is going to be the senior partner. Another standing issue is that China's new trade route goes through Central Asia and Russia, purposefully bypassing India and sea lanes adjacent to India.

Definitely perilous lol. Thanks​ for the history primer :)
 

Rourkey

Member
The thing the Chinese will never be able to replicate is the almost constant state of war the US has been over the decades you can't simply replicate that.

Chinese and even Russian equipment can do well in a game of top trumps but it will always comes and will come undone againsts the wests superior computer technology, experience and tactics.

Pretty much any western navy would sink that Chinese aircraft carrier a few days after it sailed in a conflict situation.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
A US carrier strike group consists of 1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 submarines, 2 destroyers, 2 missile cruisers and a supply ship.

Only one of them is a carrier, the other is the largest combat ship that isn't an aircraft carrier. Both of those ships (especially the Kirov class of which only Nakhimov and Pyotr Veliky still remain) possess immense ability to overwhelm defenses of an Aircraft carrier (saturation attack due to the immense amount of missiles these ships carry). Combined they can wreak havoc to a CSG, granted its likely to be a suicide mission.

It is very unlikely for a carrier and a cruiser to be able to take on a battle group. Anyways, all of that would depend on who spotted who first and with the amount of assets a battle group have, it isn't in the Russian's favor. Hell, the submarines already make it not in their favor.

Not to mention U.S carrier compliments a larger amount of aircraft.
 
But not for long. Economically China may no longer be the fastest growing economy, I believe India had overtaken it last year, but they are still growing over 6% year over year. Couple that with a defense budget that grew at over double digit aka 10% or more year over year, this year was just shy of 9% and you theoretically have a country that can and probably will be spending $300 billion or more USD in just a few short years. This is where the US will eventually falter. Growth is very little in the US and the military budget is already far more than it needs to be. If China can get a 70000 tonne aircraft carrier, even a limited takeoff one, more for training and small scale power projection in two years, imagine what they can have 20 years from now. The next aircraft carrier is already well underway and will have 85000 tonnes displacement with possible catapult system.
Doesn't this ignore the rising costs China will face also? Making an aircraft carries like this, while impressive, is remaking the Russian one. Now they need to use that experience to make their own stuff. Which is going to be expensive, have setbacks, etc.

Their growth will not continue forever, they will have an aging population in just a few decades with the costs associated with that also. The US fixes this partly with immigration, China doesn't seem to do that and will run into problems.

Hopefully China won't overtake others too much and there can be some balance in the region between them and their neighbors.
 

jfkgoblue

Member
A US carrier strike group consists of 1 Aircraft Carrier, 2 submarines, 2 destroyers, 2 missile cruisers and a supply ship.

Only one of them is a carrier, the other is the largest combat ship that isn't an aircraft carrier. Both of those ships (especially the Kirov class of which only Nakhimov and Pyotr Veliky still remain) possess immense ability to overwhelm defenses of an Aircraft carrier (saturation attack due to the immense amount of missiles these ships carry). Combined they can wreak havoc to a CSG, granted its likely to be a suicide mission.
No. just no. First off there is a cruiser in a CSG that's sole purpose is to be a bullet sponge for the carrier. Second, no carrier or destroyer is getting remotely close to a carrier with the subs patrolling. Third, no planes are getting close to a carrier with an US carrier housing far more planes and weapons than any other ship in the world. Finally the cruiser, destroyers and carrier itself have major missile defense systems, so even if the destroyer gets a missile off it is unlikely to hit, and will be sunk before it has a chance to get off another. It is nearly impossible to hit a carrier in a strike group with a full on strike group, much less with 2 ships.
Quite a few carriers there that are long gone.

Enterprise :(
The Enterprise was a bastard ship literally designed so that the US Navy would stop asking for nuclear powered carriers. It's not sad to see it go.
 

4Tran

Member
Doesn't this ignore the rising costs China will face also? Making an aircraft carries like this, while impressive, is remaking the Russian one. Now they need to use that experience to make their own stuff. Which is going to be expensive, have setbacks, etc.
That's exactly the point of this ship. It's meant to be a test to see if China can build an aircraft carrier on their own, and to learn enough in the process to start up completely indigenous designs. Of which at least one is already underway. The expense of the carrier program isn't too much of a concern because China currently spends only about 2% of its GDP on its military so they have some room to grow.

Hopefully China won't overtake others too much and there can be some balance in the region between them and their neighbors.
The natural balance is going to be a East Asia and Southeast Asia that's dominated by China. Simply put, China has more people than the rest of the entire region. For example, The entire membership of ASEAN is about 625 million people, and China is double that. Combine that with the relative wealth of the country and it's a foregone conclusion as long as there isn't some sort of major crisis or war.

The bigger question is how we're going to go from here to that equilibrium and how comfortable the various countries are going to be with it.
 

milanbaros

Member?
People seem to be miss that a large navy takes decades to establish. China's military budget is only now reaching significant levels. If you grow that budget over the next 20 years then they will more than consolidate their power in South China Sea.
 
Presumably after Clinton and Bush.

Non of them will get carriers named after them. The Navy wants to get back to traditional naming conventions and Obama and Clinton never served in any capacity in the military and Bush Jr only had a short tenuous time with the National Guard.


It is very unlikely for a carrier and a cruiser to be able to take on a battle group. Anyways, all of that would depend on who spotted who first and with the amount of assets a battle group have, it isn't in the Russian's favor. Hell, the submarines already make it not in their favor.

Not to mention U.S carrier compliments a larger amount of aircraft.

This purely showing off to its own people. The Kuznetsov was a flawed design from the get go and would stand no chance against an American carrier. There is only two countries with true capability of naval power projection The US and the UK once the Queen Elizabeth's are in service.
 

DrSlek

Member
Non of them will get carriers named after them. The Navy wants to get back to traditional naming conventions and Obama and Clinton never served in any capacity in the military and Bush Jr only had a short tenuous time with the National Guard.

That's good news. No USS Donald J. Trump on the horizon.

Seems like air craft carriers are big targets how do they protect from missle attack?

With an escorting fleet of many destroyers and frigates.
 
Seems like air craft carriers are big targets how do they protect from missle attack?

Carriers travel in groups with escort ships (destroyers, submarines etc). The escorts generally have missile defense capabilities. However ideally the carrier air wing has already launched a strike against the missile launch sites (or enemy ships) before they got a targeting solution on the carrier. The best defense is, as always, to be the one that fires first.
 

Rival

Gold Member
Seems like air craft carriers are big targets how do they protect from missle attack?

Because they roll deep! At least the US does with their carrier strike groups. The amount of firepower in one of them is absolutely incredible. Good thing we have 10!
 

DrSlek

Member
Doesn't got anything on the new ford class carriers but congrats I guess in getting it done quickly.

Not to put a wet blanket on US naval dick waving and smugness, but perhaps take this as a sign of what's to come. China is massively increasing its naval power. These first 2 carriers have been just dipping toes in the water. Gaining experience in ship design and building. 10 years from now, China will probably be a major naval power.
 

Madness

Member
People seem to be miss that a large navy takes decades to establish. China's military budget is only now reaching significant levels. If you grow that budget over the next 20 years then they will more than consolidate their power in South China Sea.

Considering they are below 2% GDP still and growing their military spending at almost 10% year over year rates, they will hit $300 billion a year soon and still have room to spend. This already consolidates power in the South China Sea. They now have a much larger indigenous aircraft carrier that can launch about 28 J-15 fighter jets outside of their mainland. Even if it was just around the South China Sea there is now limited power projection by China against Vietnam and the. Philippines.

Their navy will take decades which is why they are playing the long game. This also gives greater deterrence against a US pivot to Asia. In 10 years, they will likely have 4 functioning aircraft carriers within their seas, near Taiwan. That is power projection. No they won't be off the coast of Florida launching jets. But they can be on the ports near Pakistan or Sri Lanka or Iran providing air support or escorts etc.

The next ship in the Gerald R. Ford class after George H.G. Bush was announced to be the new Enterprise. Should be operating by 2027.

Isn't the next one the USS John F. Kennedy and then the USS Enterprise?
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The thing the Chinese will never be able to replicate is the almost constant state of war the US has been over the decades you can't simply replicate that.

Chinese and even Russian equipment can do well in a game of top trumps but it will always comes and will come undone againsts the wests superior computer technology, experience and tactics.

Pretty much any western navy would sink that Chinese aircraft carrier a few days after it sailed in a conflict situation.

Carriers have pretty serious anti-submarine capability.
Oh, wait... I meant US carriers. nvm
 

Finnroth

Member
If I have learned anything from chinese engineering news, something totally unexpected will catch fire or explode within a couple months.
 

kmag

Member
No. just no. First off there is a cruiser in a CSG that's sole purpose is to be a bullet sponge for the carrier. Second, no carrier or destroyer is getting remotely close to a carrier with the subs patrolling. Third, no planes are getting close to a carrier with an US carrier housing far more planes and weapons than any other ship in the world. Finally the cruiser, destroyers and carrier itself have major missile defense systems, so even if the destroyer gets a missile off it is unlikely to hit, and will be sunk before it has a chance to get off another. It is nearly impossible to hit a carrier in a strike group with a full on strike group, much less with 2 ships.

The Enterprise was a bastard ship literally designed so that the US Navy would stop asking for nuclear powered carriers. It's not sad to see it go.

The biggest threat to a US carrier remains Diesel-Electric subs. The US Navy has a pretty spotty record against them in wargaming. Even then it would be a suicide mission for the sub given the screen.
 
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