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Christian Cake Company Refuses to Create Cake for Group in Support of Gay Marriage
- Thread starter Deaf Spacker
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Impeccable
Member
I would have assumed that a business has the right to refuse anything on any reasoning considering it's a personally run thing. Also, not sure why people can't just use another bakery or store if they are refused service.
IsntChrisL
Member
It might not be good for business but it's their business.
This really. Except that I do have a problem with it, but that is easily solved by not doing business with business that actively discriminate against people. If you want to ruin your business with bigotry, go right ahead and fuck off.
But that doesn't mean you don't have a right to be like that.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Wouldn't this be copyright infringement anyway?
you know, there is that thing called law
Discrimination defense force is on the ball today. Anyway, no people you cant discriminate based on arbitrary personal standards. That's one of the costs of doing business that one must deal with when you want to function in a modern society that has the capacity to enforce the contracts also essential to carrying out said business.
Deaf Spacker
Memb
The bakery cannot pick and choose what laws it follows, just like any other business can't.
That said, fuck that company.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Not that simple.
Moff
Member
because it was totally ok when stores in the 1930s germany wouldnt serve dogs and jews. their company, their decision, no problem at all.
Red Arremer
Member
Yes. The people who want to have their favorite fictional characters on their wedding/birthday/whatever cakes have to pay royalties to the copyright holders.
Understand that. I was just talking from a personal standpoint. Legally its a grey area.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I don't know, I just can't get outraged at this.
I mean, isn't there a difference between "we won't serve gays" and "we won't make this bespoke cake to your specific design"? Would there still be a human rights issue if they would be willing to sell them a plain cake?
I mean, isn't there a difference between "we won't serve gays" and "we won't make this bespoke cake to your specific design"? Would there still be a human rights issue if they would be willing to sell them a plain cake?
Diprosalic
Banned
not if they purchased the figurines and just put them on the cake instead of making them themselves. Otherwise, yes.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Putting aside whether or not they should be legally obliged to provide this service...
If you want to lose business because you're a bigot, go ahead. There's someone around the corner who wants the money. Your loss.
If you want to lose business because you're a bigot, go ahead. There's someone around the corner who wants the money. Your loss.
Aβydoς;119997433 said:
That said, absolutely the fuck not.
Just like you cannot ask someone to bake you a cake then stab them in the throat when they ask for consideration to fully execute the contract then claim that those nebulous laws regarding not stabbing people in the throat don't apply to you, neither can this bakery decide what law they adhere to.
You cannot discriminate on the grounds of sexuality. Northern Ireland might be a sectarian shithole but those pesky laws still apply.
Alx
Member
I wonder what the law says about personalized cakes... If they were a printing company, they would obviously have to print whatever is asked. And of course they can't refuse to sell a regular cake to someone for whatever reason. Buf it is a customized order, does it fit in their regular activity ?
Impeccable
Member
This is kind of my stance - why do people do this to themselves, it's a fucking cake.
Use another bakery and destroy the shithole bigotted one using social media and move on.
"It's not the cake - it's the message!" or something.
I don't know particular North Ireland situation but I suppose it musn't be very far of the average of european laws on discrimation. You can't refuse to serve someone on the sole reason of their race, sexual orientation, etc..
waxer
Member
Seems like a hard issue to say if they are wrong or not. It isnt illegal to write a racist statement on a cake but should they be forced to make it for someone by the law. Wouldnt that be the same in a way.
However if they refuse the people even if they change what is on the cake then that would be discriminating against the actual customer?
However if they refuse the people even if they change what is on the cake then that would be discriminating against the actual customer?
Red Arremer
Member
Not to deviate too much from the topic, but in one of the book stores I've worked, we refused to sell/order books from an antisemitic author that denies the holocaust, including personalized orders for customers.
Would this same logic apply there, as well? Because while I feel our store did the morally right thing, it seems that the positions in here are fairly absolute.
I know it's not exactly the same situation, but still wondering on the opinions about that.
Would this same logic apply there, as well? Because while I feel our store did the morally right thing, it seems that the positions in here are fairly absolute.
I know it's not exactly the same situation, but still wondering on the opinions about that.
Also, as a homosexual, I don't believe the bakery was in the wrong here. They after all weren't refusing to service the gay couple, but they refused to create that product they desired.
But they didn't refuse on the grounds of their sexuality, it was on the message that the cake was to carry.
Doesn't seem like that is the case here.
CyclopsRock
Member
It's not immediately obvious that they have, though. The equalities gang are writing to them (as opposed to immediately just charging them) under Section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act of 1998, which states that the Equalities Commission is obligated to promote equality of opportunity "between persons of different religious belief, political opinion, racial group, age, marital status or sexual orientation." So I guess the question is a) does buying a cake count as an integral part of "equality of opportunity" and b) when the religious views of one counter the sexual orientation of another person, who "wins"?
Out of interest, to the people in this thread, would you oppose the bakery refusing to service a gay guy who wanted a cake specifically advocating gay marriage? (As opposed to refusing service purely on the grounds that the customer was gay, irrespective of the actual design of the cake?) Because to me they seem like two different things (maybe they'd refuse to create a cake with an Irish nationalist symbol, too?) and the cake in question here was specifically to promote Queerspace - a cause that the bakers obviously don't support due to their religion.
Prime crotch
Banned
Unless commissioned work falls under a different section I'd say legally it's the same thing, according to your moral views you refused certain services.
Uh, no. Their existence as company uses services paid by tax payers one way or another, it should not pick and choose customer based on religions.
I realise this case is in a "grey area", I'll let the justice decide (personally, with the few elements we get here, I consider it as discrimination). I just answered to "Their company, their decision.". That's just false, it's not because it's your company you can do everything you want.
He would not have ham in his menu/inventory.
Ok so i'll stick with that Turkey.
What if i asked him to arrange the Pineapple into the Star Of David?
Red Liquorice
Member
And again, we come back to would this be okay if they refused the business of a black or interracial couple because the business owners didn't like black people or thought interracial marriage was wrong?
"My beliefs, are my beliefs" - Discrimination against homosexuality is the only discrimination I hear this argument for. We don't let racism or sexism fly for the same excuse.
QuicheFontaine
Member
If I'm a poet advertising bespoke poetry, and someone approaches me and asks me to write a poem about Bert and Ernie from Sesame Street doing it, would the ECHR really rule that I'm obliged to write one for you??
It just feels like an odd situation.
PedroPanache
Member
I hope Nintendo don't object to my Bert and Ernie themed Wii U.
"We don't make pizzas with designs on them. That's not part of our job. You should consider a bakery for that sort of thing."
The law is very simple, you cannot discriminate on grounds of sexuality. Nothing the customer asked is outside of the remit of what the company already provides as a service. Its a cake, they make cakes, If a customer asks for a cake they cannot refuse service because either the customer or the cake is gay. Nothing has been asked is any different than any other customers request other than the implied sexuality of a cake.
Why are stating that law enforcement should be left as a function of the marketplace? Why does a business get carte blanche to break the law? As i stated earlier Just like a person cannot choose which aspects of the states statue books apply to them what kind of train of thought, outside those of a market fetishist can be ridden to come to the conclusion that they should have a la carte choice on what aspects of the framework of a state they only need apply to them?
BrokenEchelon
Banned
And the law is always right! Says the five year old child.
They should be allowed to call the shots and they can deal with the consequences.
Shanks D Zoro
Banned
Commissioned work is surely on the decision of the business owner. They are not discriminating against gay people from coming in and buying cakes, but simply refused to do a request. I am sure they are not legally obliged to do every request that someone makes.
Prime crotch
Banned
I have no idea, personally, I think it's under your right to refuse certain services, and this whole thing might be being used as a political weapon; why is it okay for them to refuse other commissions and not this one, simply because consensus says that foul language is okay to refuse?
At least in the UK, this argument doesn't fly. If you provide a service for the public you must abide by anti-discrimination laws. Precedent has already been set by that couple who ran a B&B, and were found to have illegally discriminated against a gay couple by refusing to let them stay in the same room.
Edit: I appreciate that that is a somewhat different circumstance from this one, but I think the same principle can be applied in a more finely tuned manner.
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
Different situation. They were refuse because they were gay, not the case here when it's the cake that's the issue rather than the people.
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