No it's not. It'd be more like if the photographer was being asked to help them convey some sort of political message like the cake is doing.
Again the problem the bakery has is not with the people but the message that they want the cake to carry.
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Christian Cake Company Refuses to Create Cake for Group in Support of Gay Marriage
- Thread starter Deaf Spacker
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No it's not. It'd be more like if the photographer was being asked to help them convey some sort of political message like the cake is doing.
Again the problem the bakery has is not with the people but the message that they want the cake to carry.
UncleSporky
Member
What if it's a woodworker doing a complex design that requires months of his time? You think he should be required to spend all that time working on something he hates, whatever the thing is?
No, because homophobic discrimination isn't equivalent to gay people being allowed equal rights. I do not believe that these two scenarios ought to be treated as though they're of equal merit, which is the point I was making.
ScatheZombie
Member
Well, thank god bigots are stupid enough to admit they're bigoted.
If they had just said "We're sorry, we are unable to fulfill your order" and given them a refund, without explaining that their 'religious beliefs' prevent them from making a 'gay cake', that would have been the end of it.
It is literally that simple. Businesses can absolutely refuse service to any customer ... as long as they don't admit the reason is because of prejudice or discrimination against a protected class.
If they had just said "We're sorry, we are unable to fulfill your order" and given them a refund, without explaining that their 'religious beliefs' prevent them from making a 'gay cake', that would have been the end of it.
It is literally that simple. Businesses can absolutely refuse service to any customer ... as long as they don't admit the reason is because of prejudice or discrimination against a protected class.
PhantomHound
Banned
Every human is granted equal rights... so would you ever refuse service to a neo nazi or KKK member. I know I sure as hell would refuse service to him even if he was buying a bag of Doritos.
I especially wouldn't design a cake that said "KKK" on it... that's for damn sure.
If they have a problem with that message, they clearly have a problem with the people.
Not agreeing with gay marriage doesn't mean they have a problem with gay people.
You sure?
As has been said repeatedly in this thread, it isn't discrimination to decline service to a neo-nazi, or a KKK member or even a Tory member. Political affiliation is not covered in existing equality law.
I don't know, I think I'd rather them be honest about it if it was of religious nature. I can respect their beliefs.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
Repulsive? Your scenario just makes me see dollar signs, and I'm not gay. Exploit that untapped market.
Live Free or Die
Banned
Agreed.
Uh, yes it does.
"I don't have a problem with gay people, I just think they shouldn't have the same rights as straight people"
"I don't hate blacks, I just think they shouldn't have the same rights as white people."
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I'm not equating anything to anything else, other than to ask on what grounds a gay ran bakery would have refused to make a pro prop 8 cake, that wouldn't run a afoul of any law that would force these people to make a pro gay marriage cake.
CyclopsRock
Member
Use the internet? I think this may have been a more significant problem in an era of feudal hamlets where if you got on the wrong side of the local blacksmith, you could never buy anything metal. That's not really the case now (and it hasn't been for a long time - Adam Smith has an interesting quote about the multicultural melting pot of a London trading floor around the turn of the century formulated by the mutual pursuit of money!), and practically I don't think it's a scenario worth worrying about when it comes to legislation, but I guess from a moral point of view that's a cop out ...
I guess it comes down to whether you think people have a right to have leaflets printed. If they don't - and, really, I think it's pretty clear that the right to free speech doesn't extend to the right to the materials required for free speech, so I assume that basically no one believes that people have a right to have leaflets printed - I'd question the extent to which the owner of a leaflet printer should have their "right" to withhold their labour from supporting goals they oppose removed and instead be forced to promote said goals. I don't think that withholding one's labour is a luxury only allowed as long as everyone's getting what they want.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
It's a calculated risk, either they risk injury to their reputation by not being able to fulfill orders or a lack of skill to complete the cake or they do what they did. I haven't read exactly how this went down, but I could definitely see a business trying the too busy excuse only to then be given a long lead time by he prospective client to take that excuse off the table.
"I don't hate thongs, I just think they shouldn't have the same rights as boyshorts."
Is it not okay for people to respect their religions beliefs when they aren't actively harming anyone, or to be a neutral party?
Just for the record, if I owned a bakery, I would totally make a gay wedding cake, but under no circumstance would I make a gay Bert and Ernie cake, So I don't match either side of the argument.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Honestly? I'd be fine with them having to make the cake. Maybe they don't do a very good job, whatever, the specifics of that fun relationship are between those two hypothetical parties, but I believe that the right to receive service is more important than the right to refuse service (barring, again, exceptions for a narrow class of situations like groups that promote violence)
QuicheFontaine
Member
I feel like the owners of the bakery could have pre-empted QueerSpace's argument by adding:
"...of course, I wouldn't make this specific cake for any customer, regardless of their race, religion or sexual orientation."
Yes. If you refuse to support gay rights on the basis of religion you are a bigot.
So they should be forced to make a cake advocating the killing of infidels for a Muslim who follows sharia law?
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
"I don't hate non-citizens I just don't think they should have the same rights as citizens"
"I don't hate children I just don't think they should have the same rights as adults"
Are you saying that the US has a problem with all children and all the other people in the world?
PlayALLtheGames
Banned
I mean...
If the only difference between gay marriage and straight marriage is that the former is done by gay people, and they don't have a problem serving straight people getting married, it would seem the gay people are the thing they have a problem with.
888
Member
It is interesting to see people demand tolerance for their beliefs by showing intolerance towards others beliefs. That said I don't think they were refusing service but just did not want to do that custom cake because it was offensive to their beliefs. Yet they are called Biggots for their beliefs. How is that any different than showing intolerance towards the LGBT community? Is one side expected to play by different rules?
Kadayi
Banned
lorebringer
Member
Why is someone's right to refuse service less important? I am a programmer, I have done plenty of freelance projects for people that might consume 3-6 months of my life. Should I have a right to refuse to work on a project that endorses or promotes something I disagree with? Why shouldn't the client go somewhere else in this situation?
Hmmm, but intolerance of intolerance...isn't really the same as intolerance itself (this is the tolerance paradox).
There's a Karl Popper quote that more or less goes: "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. ...We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant."
888
Member
This
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Because what if they can't find anyone who will service them? This is less of a problem with something like web development, but with something like say, a cake, you pretty much have to use a local bakery, and if you live in a small city or town then your ability to be serviced is completely at the mercy of the local buisnessowners.
PhantomHound
Banned
Dude we dont live in the 1700s anymore. They can just order the cake off the internet... There will always be someone to do the job
But if you can't respect their religious beliefs doesn't that make you a bigot as well?
Refusing service because they are gay is bigotry. Refusing to make a custom cake that takes two cartoon characters who have no sexuality but makes them gay...I mean. Let's assume we don't know if the owners are anti gay. Can't a company refuse to do any custom design for a customer?
I mean I know most of you think a company has the right to refuse service. But then conversely they have the right to be criticized and lose business over their practice. This one is just weird to me because they weren't refusing service, they just didn't want to a make a specific custom cake a customer was asking.
Edit: seems like the issue was more about gay marriage and not about making characters depict something.
I mean I know most of you think a company has the right to refuse service. But then conversely they have the right to be criticized and lose business over their practice. This one is just weird to me because they weren't refusing service, they just didn't want to a make a specific custom cake a customer was asking.
Edit: seems like the issue was more about gay marriage and not about making characters depict something.
Who gets to define tolerance? Germans have a vastly different view of free speech compared to the US re: Nazism. So are Germans intolerant, or are Americans extending unlimited tolerance?
You are seriously comparing gay people to children and illegal immigrants? I have no words. How can someone be this dense?
No. There is a difference between being intolerant and not tolerating the people who are intolerant.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
No. I'm not actively requesting state law to force my own belief system into a persons life and how they are able to live on a day to day basis.
UncleSporky
Member
Cake shops should just refuse to make cakes with anything that could be remotely considered sexually/politically charged. No male/male wedding cake, no male/female wedding cake. Everyone gets inanimate objects like balloons, bells, lace.
Ban a representation of anything with a gender, and also a "charged" word list. That way it's never about gay people or straight people, it's just about a wedding.
Ban a representation of anything with a gender, and also a "charged" word list. That way it's never about gay people or straight people, it's just about a wedding.
QuicheFontaine
Member
No, because there is a precedent that religious views aren't reason to discriminate against someone.
ab.aeterno
Member
Perfectly clear, and well reasoned. I can't say I disagree with you. You've addressed my worst concerns well.
lorebringer
Member
So? I'm not a slave, my time isn't owed to anybody else by virtue of the fact that I am able to provide a service. Let's say I'm the world's only expert in microscopic turnip engraving and someone wants me to engrave their turnip with X thing that I disagree with, so I refuse. They can't get this done by anyone else, I am the only person in the world that can do this for them. Does this mean that for the rest of my life I have to work on turnip engravings for people with no choice in the matter?
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
What if there isn't a bakery at all? Should someone be forced to open a bakery in every town to meet cake making requirements? What if there is a bakery but they don't make custom cakes, should they be forced to?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Great, glad it worked out for them. I still think that right to service is important
Have you opened a turnip engraving business?
But it's two well known characters. I can see why some wouldn't want to take characters with history and depict them as having sexual preference (when they don't have any). If they had refused to make a cake with two male figures like they do male and female characters, I might agree with this.
Reminds me of the cake wars in Oregon, and the bad publicity oddly only ramped up sales for that bakery in question : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/30/sweet-cakes-by-melissa-oregon_n_3355314.html
It'll be interesting to see how the law rules, but yea I think it's discrimination because they are refusing to make a cake about what will soon be a protected class in gay people (maybe it already is in UK/Europe but in the USA there's no federal law yet IIRC). The bakery could have given a different answer instead of focusing on the gay part, and then be in that grey area, but it sounds more like discrimination than say entitlement.
But did you explicitly say you refused service because they were Republican? Probably not but if you did then this legalzoom FAQ says you may have violated their civil rights however I'm no expert on law:
It'll be interesting to see how the law rules, but yea I think it's discrimination because they are refusing to make a cake about what will soon be a protected class in gay people (maybe it already is in UK/Europe but in the USA there's no federal law yet IIRC). The bakery could have given a different answer instead of focusing on the gay part, and then be in that grey area, but it sounds more like discrimination than say entitlement.
But did you explicitly say you refused service because they were Republican? Probably not but if you did then this legalzoom FAQ says you may have violated their civil rights however I'm no expert on law:
UncleSporky
Member
It's nice to see that you understand his point and agree with him, even though you're not willing to admit it.
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