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[Zilch]

so basically all of you guys are saying it is ok for moore to hate bush but not ok for people to hate moore.. gotcha.. ok for moore to make personal attacks against politicians but not ok for others to make personal attacks against moore.

god what hypocrits.

It seems like these forumgoers now expect a van full of explosives to crash into Moore's house or something.

 

[Flynn]

While I disagree with the group's tactics, to condemn an entire country because of a few idiots is just as ignorant.

...but appropriate. We're a bunch of psychos.

 

[Warm Machine]

So to make his message clearer he has to be poor. Isn't it the message that matters and not where it comes from?

 

[mjq jazz bar]

It seems like these forumgoers now expect a van full of explosives to crash into Moore's house or something.

Jesus Christ, it's the fucking principle. Get a life, moron.

 

[Father_Brain]

And Dobson is an Evangelical, not a fundementalist.

Could you please explain the difference?

 

[Zilch]

Sure, it's a somewhat immature and low tactic, but it's not like it's illegal to make his address known.

edit: Michael Moore, just like Prez Bush, is a very public figure. He should be willing to take this kind of stuff if he's gonna create such purposefully-controversial works.

 

[DSN2K]

It seems like these forumgoers now expect a van full of explosives to crash into Moore's house or something.

that would be a good start

 

[borghe]

principle? you're kidding right? we are really talking about moore and principle in the same sentence.. wtf?!?! are we on bizarro world??

he wants to throw shit around, he can't not expect to get a little bit back in his eye. Really as simple as that.

 

[Ill Saint]

Lets apply this logic elsewhere...

What Bush does incites hate. Him getting attacked is not right, but him going to the depths that he does to essentially anger people is not necessarily right either. You can't sit there pissing people off and expect to keep getting away with it.. It doesn't make it right, but it is just common sense.

Hmm.

 

[mjq jazz bar]

Sure, it's a somewhat immature and low tactic, but it's not like it's illegal to make his address known.

It's not illegal, but there is a law in America where if an action taken by a person or a group causes someone else to take action against a certain group or person that happens to be illegal, the original party can be held accountable for whatever crime committed.

 

[Kon Tiki]

Someone should one up them by telling them there is no god.

 

[borghe]

see ill saint, I never defended bush.. EVER... he has done PLENTY of stupid things, and my edited post under your authorship has a certain level of truth to it....

but that still doesn't make the same statement about moore any less true.

 

[Seth C]

Someone should one up them by telling them there is no god.

Got proof?

 

[mjq jazz bar]

principle? you're kidding right? we are really talking about moore and principle in the same sentence.. wtf?!?! are we on bizarro world??

he wants to throw shit around, he can't not expect to get a little bit back in his eye. Really as simple as that.

WTF!!!!!!!

NON SEQUITUR

STRAWMAN?????

 

[borghe]

It's not illegal, but there is a law in America where if an action taken by a person or a group causes someone else to take action against a certain group or person that happens to be illegal, the original party can be held accountable for whatever crime committed.

technically it would be moore's stance that would cause the violence, not knowledge of his address.. as has been said.. anyone can get it if they want to.. making it easier for them could hardly be considered a cause.

 

[dark10x]

For someone who's never seen one of Moore's films, you sure are opinionated.

I guess posting the private address of a man who's in the sights of almost every conservative group in America on the Internet is a very fair measure to take. Did you know Moore has a family who's done nothing to these people, and who may ostensibly be put into harm's way due to this?

Where did you get that idea? I said I haven't seen this latest film, not that I haven't seen any of his films.

I don't necessarily disagree with previous films, I just hate the man for reasons stated in that other thread.

However, I do not wish any harm to him or his family.

 

[Zilch]

It's not illegal, but there is a law in America where if an action taken by a person or a group causes someone else to take action against a certain group or person that happens to be illegal, the original party can be held accountable for whatever crime committed.

Right. But Focus on the Family readers aren't the kind of people who are going to incite violence against this man.

 

[borghe]

WTF!!!!!!!

NON SEQUITUR

STRAWMAN?????

pot. kettle. black.

let me help you get it back on track. the first part was sarcasm.. sorry it went over your head. second part is self explanatory.. if you don;t get that I am amazed you can even turn on your computer.

 

[Raxel]

.

 

[mjq jazz bar]

Pff, if you can't back up your words, you shouldn't be saying anything. Especially when you express yourself in a sensationalist way.

Hi SegaNinja.

And he has backed himself up. Plenty of times.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

you twist around two completely separate points.

What moore does incites hate. Him getting attacked is not right, but him going to the depths that he does to essentially anger people is not necessarily right either. You can't sit there pissing people off and expect to keep getting away with it.. It doesn't make it right, but it is just common sense.

As for the address of his house, come on people.. this is all public records.. if someone REALLY wanted to attack moore, they could get his address without it being posted to an email. I was just referring to that it is something that he would do...

but what the right wing fanatics do incites hate too. and he makes his points, he's liberal. he HAS to apologize for that now? and what depths are these that he sinks to attck the bushes/politicians?

 

[Kon Tiki]

Got proof?

Yup. Bush is President.

 

[mjq jazz bar]

pot. kettle. black.

let me help you get it back on track. the first part was sarcasm.. sorry it went over your head. second part is self explanatory.. if you don;t get that I am amazed you can even turn on your computer.

Actually, I don't get it. What I do get is that you're really stupid.

 

[Ill Saint]

see ill saint, I never defended bush.. EVER... he has done PLENTY of stupid things, and my edited post under your authorship has a certain level of truth to it....

but that still doesn't make the same statement about moore any less true.

Just throwing around something to think about.

Anyway, people should be able to express themselves and their thoughts without fear of retribution or harm. That's not what America is about, in principle at least. America calls itself a great and free Country, does it not?

 

[Zilch]

These threads would be a much better read if they didn't devolve so quickly into simple insults.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

let me ask this. why write an article and post a man's address you disagree with? isnt that saying "we dont like to get our hands dirty but you guys can go ahead" buncha hate filled assholes is what they are....

 

[mjq jazz bar]

Just throwing around something to think about.

Anyway, people should be able to express themselves and their thoughts without fear of retribution or harm. That's not what America is about, in principle at least. America calls itself a great and free Country, does it not?

But he's putting Bush in harm's way by saying bad things about him!

 

[Zilch]

let me ask this. why write an article and post a man's address you disagree with? isnt that saying "we dont like to get our hands dirty but you guys can go ahead" buncha hate filled assholes is what they are....

It's no different than when the Southern Baptists asked their members to boycott Disney a bunch of years ago. There's (supposedly) power in numbers.

 

[Ill Saint]

These threads would be a much better read if they didn't devolve so quickly into simple insults.

Agreed. Polemics don't get anyone anywhere... discussion is worthwhile when thoughts build and generate -- everyone keeps an open mind, whether they agree or disagree.

 

[Xenon]

The guy is an idiot, but that was just wrong. Now if they can start finding the home addresses of people who use spam advertising we would really have something. =)

[3am] DING DONG ~~~~ "HEY WOULD YOU LIKE A GR8T B1G C0CK or Some Low Intere_st r@tes?"


BTW... was it in France? heh

 

[karasu]

Of course he's rich, he's a fucking filmmaker.

 

[borghe]

Just throwing around something to think about.

Anyway, people should be able to express themselves and their thoughts without fear of retribution or harm. That's not what America is about, in principle at least. America calls itself a great and free Country, does it not?

This is fundamentally wrong. You should be allowed to say what you want and think what you want, and certainly none of your legal rights should be violated as a result, but you have NO right for people to not disagree or retaliate in a legal manner. Reap what you sow..

 

[Pattergen]

Amazing how one man's opinion backed with factual proof (even if a bit misleading at points) can piss so many people off. I guess we should ammend the 1st ammendment with a "... except Michael Moore because he hates America."

 

[borghe]

no.. michael moore should just respect OTHER people's first ammendment rights to disagree with him and be just as public about it as he is. it was this newsletters first ammendment right to publish his address.. it was factual. nothing was lied about.

 

[mjq jazz bar]

You're right. That rascally Moore should stop publishing the personal home addresses of people who disagree with him on his site!

Ever hear of abortion doctors being killed because of their addresses being listed on sites and in newsletters that are expressly anti abortion? Just because there's no explicit message telling people to act in a violent or negative manner toward someone does not mean it can't be implied.

 

[Raxel]

.

 

[Ill Saint]

This is fundamentally wrong. You should be allowed to say what you want and think what you want, and certainly none of your legal rights should be violated as a result, but you have NO right for people to not disagree or retaliate in a legal manner. Reap what you sow..

Of course people are allowed to disagree with him and, and do so within whatever rights they are allowed. By retribution I meant physical or verbal, alluding to harm. Should have been clearer. Sorry.

Publishing his address is borderline. They've essentially said "here it is, do as you will". Legalistics aside, it's just plain nasty, that's what it is.

 

[Volt]

edit: Michael Moore, just like Prez Bush, is a very public figure. He should be willing to take this kind of stuff if he's gonna create such purposefully-controversial works.

Woo, big difference there !! Michael Moore has never claimed to do anything but express his own opinion, which is a well-researched one. Sure, he's a public figure, but he's also a private person speaking only for himself. He's got a big audience, but in the literal text of the US' Constitution, there should be NO way anyone could justify harming this man for his opinion and/or the works of art/media he chooses to produce based on that opinion !

Bush Jr., on the other hand, is an ELECTED (well, depends on how you count the votes of course) public figure who speaks for a whole nation ! This guy is asking each and every citizen of the USA to trust his judgement, he's largely responsible for the way other countries look at and deal with the USA at this point in time. Criticizing these elected persons (Congressman, governors and presidents alike) is ESSENTIAL to any democracy that holds to freedom of speech.

I don't understand how people can hate Michael Moore for basically doing what many writers and film makers have been doing throughout history. He's exposing lies told to the citizens by their elected leaders, and yeah, he's doing it in his own idiosyncratic way, but we all know WHY Michael Moore is shouting so loud and drawing that much attention to himself : it's the only way to make sure your message reaches a large enough crowd to make any difference.

 

[Drensch]

It seems like these forumgoers now expect a van full of explosives to crash into Moore's house or something.

Ummm, these are the same type of fucks that bomb clinics and kill doctors and nurses. Religious radicals are scary people, ask any soldier in Iraq.

 

[spangler]

I don't think I'll ever understand why so many people get so very upset because someone has the sheer audacity to point out that the US is largely governed by corporate interests and the general working class citizen gets screwed from just about every angle. God forbid the person pointing these things out presents the material in a logical, factual way that is readily available to the general public.

Why does Moore stir up this brand of hatred and controversy? Does it really hurt that bad to see the hypocrisy, greed, and lies of the powers that be exposed? Or perhaps valid criticism of corporate-run, ineptly-led America isn't valid if the the individual lodging the complaint is overweight.

As an american, I know it hurts to see that the indoctrination we go through as youngsters is a bunch of horse puckey, but try to examine the state of our nation with an open mind and an open heart. And stop blindly following O'Reilly and Fox news in general. If you must tune in, at least read a couple of Chomsky's books to balance things out a bit. I'd suggest starting with What Uncle Sam Really Wants. It's very short and easy to follow. Hell, why not read Zinn's classic People's History of the United States to place things into a wider historical context. Follow that up with Naomi Klein's No Logo and you should be set. Then listen to O'Reilly again and try to keep your head from exploding.

 

[Thaedolus]

Oh boo-urns. Someone pointed out his public address and encouraged people to exercise their right to let him know what they think. So he might get some hate mail.

You know, I think he was using his own rights when he made those documentaries...

WHAT A SICK COUNTRY WE HAVE!

 

[mjq jazz bar]

Oh boo-urns. Someone pointed out his public address and encouraged people to exercise their right to let him know what they think. So he might get some hate mail.

You know, I think he was using his own rights when he made those documentaries...

WHAT A SICK COUNTRY WE HAVE!

Which they could do through the e-mail address he has listed on his personal website.

 

[Thaedolus]

So what? Hordes of angry e-mail != hordes of angry letters. You have to pay money to send a letter, and there's the physical nature of it as well.

 

[Zilch]

Ummm, these are the same type of fucks that bomb clinics and kill doctors and nurses. Religious radicals are scary people, ask any soldier in Iraq.

Religious radicals in Iraq != Christians

Sure, there have been incidents in America with these kinds of radicals (Abortion bombings/killings), but it's grossly ignorant to assume every conservative Christian organization is full of these violent, undoubtedly psychotic people (as you seem to be doing).

Volt: I agree with you. Moore and Bush are quite different, while still the same. But my point (the latter half of what you quoted) still stands.

Why does Moore stir up this brand of hatred and controversy? Does it really hurt that bad to see the hypocrisy, greed, and lies of the powers that be exposed? Or perhaps valid criticism of corporate-run, ineptly-led America isn't valid if the the individual lodging the complaint is overweight.

No, I think the reason is because Moore deliberately uses inflammatory and antagonizing tactics to get his points across.

 

[Volt]

Oh boo-urns. Someone pointed out his public address and encouraged people to exercise their right to let him know what they think. So he might get some hate mail.

If anyone wanted to "let him know what they think", they could've easily done so through numerous channels including his personal website and the different publishers he's worked with. Putting up his private adress wouldn't be such a huge moral crime, if it wasn't obvious from the context that the people who put it up wouldn't really mind seeing someone completely debunking Moore, or even shutting him up..
Maybe their intent wasn't completelt malicious, but if the point was really to just let people know how to contact Moore, they could've just put up a more public adress where Moore can read this mail just fine..

 

[Gregory]

Considering a mind-boggling 90% of americans are religious this doesn`t surprise me one bit.

Wacko`s. All of you.

 

[Volt]

Volt: I agree with you. Moore and Bush are quite different, while still the same. But my point (the latter half of what you quoted) still stands.

Yes, of course : he should expect counter-attacks, that much seems logical to me.
The difference is : attacking a president (with facts of course, not weapons) is an essential freedom of any democracy, and it's often necessary !
Attacking the artist/journalist/private person who is trying to expose some of the hidden lies behind the government... that's censorship IMO.

I haven't seen the movie yet, it's due out next week here in Belgium and I will go see it then. What I do know is that I don't need to agree 100% with the methods and style used by Moore to make his point. Nor do I need to like him as a person. The fact remains : I have the basic belief that what he's trying to do is important, because people need to see what's really going on if democracy wants to survive. Making his home adress publicly know is just way out of line, it would now only take one over-zealous Moore hater to create a true tragedy..

 

[Ill Saint]

Attacking the artist/journalist/private person who is trying to expose some of the hidden lies behind the government... that's censorship IMO.

No, it's not censorship. Censorship would be to dilute or totally silence him/her.

The difference is : attacking a president (with facts of course, not weapons) is an essential freedom of any democracy, and it's often necessary !

Everyone should question their President/Prime Minister/"Leader". It seems to me that in America, Presidents are treated in an almost Rock Star like Fashion. Just seeing the fervor during campaign trails is surreal. Questioning of the President and his policies, should be encouraged and nurtured. Journalists have to be able to ask tough questions, and I just don't see that.

 

[DrForester]

Didn't Michael Moore give Charleton Hestons address out in Bowling for COlumbine?

 

[dark10x]

But he's putting Bush in harm's way by saying bad things about him!

Oh no! While I don't care about Bush, that is a pretty stupid comment...

You can't control emotions, I'm afraid, so people tend to get pissed about many things. The thing is, your comment was clearly designed to slap the idea of "freedom of speech" in the face, was it not?

Obviously, it still stands. Moore's life is no different and no major force has really done anything. I mean, there are countries out there that would KILL you for doing what Moore did. One shitty leadership group (Bush) != an entire country and everything it stands for.

The difference is : attacking a president (with facts of course, not weapons) is an essential freedom of any democracy, and it's often necessary !

Ignoring his recent film, you DO realize that Moore has attacked MANY other people besides presidents, right? I don't think anyone should sink to HIS level, but still...it goes WELL beyond this 9/11 movie.

Attacking the artist/journalist/private person who is trying to expose some of the hidden lies behind the government... that's censorship IMO.

Sure it is. However, it isn't as if the government is actually trying to censor anything. This is just a group of random dumbshits who feel like stirring the pot.