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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
- Start date
- Status
Fernando Rocker
Banned
I see we have another racooon here.
06nbarnhill
Member
Ya generally I don't touch these threads.afternoon delight said:
Apparently I am not christian because I am Mormon (or was raised Mormon....not horribly religious now).
Fernando Rocker
Banned
JackEtc said:
Nah... it's about MorisUkunRasik
racooon is a now banned member. He was one of the original de-railers of this thread. Check the first pages.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
raccoon was banned because of his trolling on this thread?Fernando Rocker said:
never would i ever see the day that a mod would ban a troll on a christian/religion thread.
Moris, chill the fuck down. if you're gonna troll, do it like pheeniks.
nevermind, he doesn't know how.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
viakado said:
I really don't know if he was banned because of this thread... but I do know he was banned the same days he was commenting in this thread.
MorisUkunRasik
Member
I wasn't trolling, I was having a back and forth with JackETc. I didn't condemn him for his beliefs, I was just picking his brain.
Bungalow Bob
Banned
This is false. Assuming there is a god, the chance of him being the one in the Bible is extremely small. If the real god turns out to be a different jealous god, he'll punish you; if he's a god that values logic, he'll also punish you.JackEtc said:
Basically, you're greatly increasing your chances of eternally burning in hell (and decreasing your chances of going to heaven) by believing what you do for the reasons you have given.
just checking in. praying for everyone in japan and hope the situation gets better. i'm a christian, and i have no problem openly admitting it anywhere, just so we do not overly force our religion onto or judge others. just as Jesus himself said, "who do you say i am?". whether you choose to follow his teachings or not is a personal decision for all to decide. live and let live.
god bless, and peace.
god bless, and peace.
Bungalow Bob
Banned
That's a VERY strange opinion for a Christian to have.GhaleonQ said:
Even if a Christian is in a horrible situation (like the slave of a master who regularly abuses her), she knows that when her short time on Earth is over she will spend an eternity in heaven. This is VERY comforting knowledge. Furthermore, God will not cause or encourage the murder, torture, rape and kidnapping of Christians like he sometimes does with non-Christians. So lowering the chances of experiencing those 4 undesirable things is another advantage of being a Christian.
That's certainly true, but it's not fair to have such a basic reduction of "If it doesn't say it, then it must be OK, or since God kills things, that means we can kill things"Shanadeus said:
This is where you and I will always disagree because abortion is not birth control like a condom or a pill. The Bible is full of examples of people who had no kids even if married, it has no examples of ones who had an opportunity to have kids wind up aborting them.Shanadeus said:
The assumption throughout the Bible is that the unborn were living- which is accurate considering that science and the law doesn't dispute this.
Yeah, I figured, but it's just an argument using verses the wrong way to justify an assumtion that doesn't hold up. On top of using an odd Bible translation, he also justifies it by changing the meaning of a Hebrew word. That's pretty bold.Shanadeus said:
Greg Laurie's message from Sunday is fitting with all those idiotic "RAPTURE ON MAY 21ST!" billboards polluting the landscape:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJG1rIg__DE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJG1rIg__DE
Ultima ratio regum
Banned
The traditional bible is an incomplete work, the true bible includes lord of the rings and chronicles of narnia, as well as the illiad and the odyssey. With a true bible it can be shown via citation that the will of god includes abortion done by humans as natural inevitable consequence of fixing mutations that would lead to brain dead fetuses being born and killing both child and mother without no sentient possibility of life ever being present.
Remember the tissue of a fetus is that of a regenerating collective community or association of cells, cells are merely machines, and a single gene defect an no brain will ever be built... a single mutation and it is not human but merely hostile cancer like human tissue.
Okay, I wasn't going to post this because I'm strapped for time. But someone sent me a private message for the evidence.
Is there really evidence? Absolutely but you won't hear about it because scientists don't know what to do with it. If the evidence doesn't fit their paradigm it is tossed aside.
Giant Shells in Peru's Andes discovered in 2001. The fossils were disseminated over a wide area. The oysters were found closed suggesting that they had not been eaten, or had died a natural death. The shells of dead oysters tend to open and the fact that they were closed suggests that they were prevented from opening by burial in silt and earth.
There are marine fossils throughout the world found on mountains such as ammonite fossils found on the Himalayan mountains.
Numerous underwater cities discovered throughout the world. This site is off the coast of Yonaguni a small island south-west of Okinawa in the Japanese archipelago.
The website covers underwater cities off the coast of Taiwan, India, Cuba and many other places in the world.
There are also many underwater ancient forests discovered.
Ever wonder where all the water came from and go after the flood? How did the animals from Mt. Ararat get to Australia or to the Galapagos Island?
It is answered here Part 1 of 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQKSv5o_Po Please watch all 6 parts.
Knowing the details of of what God did with the Global Flood builds fear and awe of God in me.
Noah's Flood found in the Chinese language, also the Garden of Eden story and Tower of Babel.
The Chinese word for boat is made up of three component radicals.
character means "ship" or "vessel."
character is the Chinese number "eight."
character is the word for "mouth" or "person."
The first boat mentioned in the Bible is Noah's ark. Just how many people or "mouths" were aboard this ship or vessel? Genesis 7:13 tells us: "In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark." So Noah's ark was a ship or a vessel with eight people. Yet the Chinese language -- predating the Hebrew in which the Old Testament was written by at least 700 years -- records this fact in perfect detail.
I don't know, is this a coincidence? I can't read nor write Chinese but I have read many comments and reviews on Youtube and Amazon about the book about it (which I just actually purchased)of Chinese people and they say it is true - their is hidden biblical meanings in Chinese characters. One Youtube comment: "I am a Chinese Christian, this is true and fact that many Chinese characters have hidden meaning of Bible. There is an ancient Chinese saying that: "After Zhong-jae invented the Chinese characters, devils cry. " For thousands of years, nobody understood why the invention of Chinese characters got to do with "devil cry"? After western missionaries came to China, preaching the gospel, some missionaries and Chinese Christians started to know the hidden meaning of the old saying."
Surely, if there was a worldwide flood as written in the Bible, the story would have spread out throughout the cultures of the world after the Tower of Babel, correct? Well, that's what we find. There are over 500 cultures scattered throughout the world that have a worldwide flood story. And many of the elements are so similar that had some scientists question if it really did occur. Coincidence? I think not.
According to John D. Morris, Ph.D., while the differences are not always trivial, the common essence of the stories is instructive as compiled below:
1. Is there a favored family? 88%
2. Were they forewarned? 66%
3. Is flood due to wickedness of man? 66%
4. Is catastrophe only a flood? 95%
5. Was flood global? 95%
6. Is survival due to a boat? 70%
7. Were animals also saved? 67%
8. Did animals play any part? 73%
9. Did survivors land on a mountain? 57%
10. Was the geography local? 82%
11. Were birds sent out? 35%
12. Was the rainbow mentioned? 7%
13. Did survivors offer a sacrifice? 13%
14. Were specifically eight persons saved? 9%
Putting them all back together, the story would read something like this:
"Once there was a worldwide flood, sent by God to judge the wickedness of man. But there was one righteous family which was forewarned of the coming flood. They built a boat on which they survived the flood along with the animals. As the flood ended, their boat landed on a high mountain from which they descended and repopulated the whole earth."
Specific examples: "Hawaiians have a flood story that tells of a time when, long after the death of the first man, the world became a wicked, terrible place. Only one good man was left, and his name was Nu-u. He made a great canoe with a house on it and filled it with animals. In this story, the waters came up over all the earth and killed all the people; only Nu-u and his family were saved."
Another flood story is from China. "It records that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters escaped a great flood and were the only people alive on earth. After the great flood, they repopulated the world."
As the story of the Flood was verbally passed from one generation to the next, some aspects would have been lost or altered. And this is what has happened, as we can see from the chart. However, as seen in the given examples, each story shares remarkable similarities to the account of Noah in the Bible. This is true even in some of the details, such as the name Nu-u in the Hawaiian flood story. Nu-u is very similar to Noah.
A catastrophic flood is a better explanation for the Grand Canyon.
Catastrophic plate tectonics. flood as the reason for the separation of Pangea, rather than the secular view that the separation was caused by plate tectonics over millions or even billions of years.
The hydroplate theory briefly explained.
Mitochondrial DNA study matches up with the Biblical timescale.
There are a lot of more evidence but I don't have time to dig it all up such as world population growth statistics match up with the time of Noah's flood.
Is there really evidence? Absolutely but you won't hear about it because scientists don't know what to do with it. If the evidence doesn't fit their paradigm it is tossed aside.
Giant Shells in Peru's Andes discovered in 2001. The fossils were disseminated over a wide area. The oysters were found closed suggesting that they had not been eaten, or had died a natural death. The shells of dead oysters tend to open and the fact that they were closed suggests that they were prevented from opening by burial in silt and earth.
There are marine fossils throughout the world found on mountains such as ammonite fossils found on the Himalayan mountains.
Numerous underwater cities discovered throughout the world. This site is off the coast of Yonaguni a small island south-west of Okinawa in the Japanese archipelago.
The website covers underwater cities off the coast of Taiwan, India, Cuba and many other places in the world.
There are also many underwater ancient forests discovered.
Ever wonder where all the water came from and go after the flood? How did the animals from Mt. Ararat get to Australia or to the Galapagos Island?
It is answered here Part 1 of 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXQKSv5o_Po Please watch all 6 parts.
Knowing the details of of what God did with the Global Flood builds fear and awe of God in me.
Noah's Flood found in the Chinese language, also the Garden of Eden story and Tower of Babel.
The first boat mentioned in the Bible is Noah's ark. Just how many people or "mouths" were aboard this ship or vessel? Genesis 7:13 tells us: "In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark." So Noah's ark was a ship or a vessel with eight people. Yet the Chinese language -- predating the Hebrew in which the Old Testament was written by at least 700 years -- records this fact in perfect detail.
I don't know, is this a coincidence? I can't read nor write Chinese but I have read many comments and reviews on Youtube and Amazon about the book about it (which I just actually purchased)of Chinese people and they say it is true - their is hidden biblical meanings in Chinese characters. One Youtube comment: "I am a Chinese Christian, this is true and fact that many Chinese characters have hidden meaning of Bible. There is an ancient Chinese saying that: "After Zhong-jae invented the Chinese characters, devils cry. " For thousands of years, nobody understood why the invention of Chinese characters got to do with "devil cry"? After western missionaries came to China, preaching the gospel, some missionaries and Chinese Christians started to know the hidden meaning of the old saying."
Surely, if there was a worldwide flood as written in the Bible, the story would have spread out throughout the cultures of the world after the Tower of Babel, correct? Well, that's what we find. There are over 500 cultures scattered throughout the world that have a worldwide flood story. And many of the elements are so similar that had some scientists question if it really did occur. Coincidence? I think not.
According to John D. Morris, Ph.D., while the differences are not always trivial, the common essence of the stories is instructive as compiled below:
1. Is there a favored family? 88%
2. Were they forewarned? 66%
3. Is flood due to wickedness of man? 66%
4. Is catastrophe only a flood? 95%
5. Was flood global? 95%
6. Is survival due to a boat? 70%
7. Were animals also saved? 67%
8. Did animals play any part? 73%
9. Did survivors land on a mountain? 57%
10. Was the geography local? 82%
11. Were birds sent out? 35%
12. Was the rainbow mentioned? 7%
13. Did survivors offer a sacrifice? 13%
14. Were specifically eight persons saved? 9%
Putting them all back together, the story would read something like this:
"Once there was a worldwide flood, sent by God to judge the wickedness of man. But there was one righteous family which was forewarned of the coming flood. They built a boat on which they survived the flood along with the animals. As the flood ended, their boat landed on a high mountain from which they descended and repopulated the whole earth."
Specific examples: "Hawaiians have a flood story that tells of a time when, long after the death of the first man, the world became a wicked, terrible place. Only one good man was left, and his name was Nu-u. He made a great canoe with a house on it and filled it with animals. In this story, the waters came up over all the earth and killed all the people; only Nu-u and his family were saved."
Another flood story is from China. "It records that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters escaped a great flood and were the only people alive on earth. After the great flood, they repopulated the world."
As the story of the Flood was verbally passed from one generation to the next, some aspects would have been lost or altered. And this is what has happened, as we can see from the chart. However, as seen in the given examples, each story shares remarkable similarities to the account of Noah in the Bible. This is true even in some of the details, such as the name Nu-u in the Hawaiian flood story. Nu-u is very similar to Noah.
A catastrophic flood is a better explanation for the Grand Canyon.
Catastrophic plate tectonics. flood as the reason for the separation of Pangea, rather than the secular view that the separation was caused by plate tectonics over millions or even billions of years.
The hydroplate theory briefly explained.
Mitochondrial DNA study matches up with the Biblical timescale.
There are a lot of more evidence but I don't have time to dig it all up such as world population growth statistics match up with the time of Noah's flood.
Ultima ratio regum
Banned
If you don't confess, and if little boys don't confess, they can't tempt the priest to fall in love with them and give in to temptation abandoning his vows of eternal celibacy without masturbating.JackEtc said:
Ultima ratio regum
Banned
That diddn't come out wrong. Imagine I originally thought my gradma was merely a function of lain iwakura programming me to be a prophet for the god of the wired, and thus the entire world revolving around me as the most powerful anonymous hacker in the internet, lavos, the abomination that the nations feared would come into existence.JackEtc said:
A coder so powerful, possessing the secrets of mathematics behind evolution and general intelligence, and thus capable of direct control over the world's stock markets, and raising the value of apple outside human valuation capacity.
Ultima ratio regum
Banned
wrong god blesses with natural spontaneous abortion childlessness means sex lead to spontaneous abortion more often than not. Why do you think the catholic church thinks sex is sin, sex=spontaneous abortion 75% of the time, 25% possibility of birth under natural probabilistic logic.JGS said:
Only sterilization of the masses and requiring artificial wombs and a license to reproduce can mean sex/=abortion. But then sex would be like masturbation and zero abortions would be against the will of god, sex would be truly sinful without reproduction or std potential as then it cannot cause grief and incest should be legally acceptable behavior.
Buckethead
Banned
It's a strong theme that God wants sex for marriage and for you to have one partner only, I get that.JGS said:
Basically my beef is that you have to have extensive knowledge of the Greek and Hebrew languages and Jewish history to even have a fundamental understanding of some of the most common issues to man including sex.
Here's other confusing points/issues of contention:
-The verse in Matthew 5 is talking about adultery, not broad sexuality. I don't think it's proper interpretation to apply it as so. Here lust means in a desirous way, that is thinking "I want to have sex with her" instead of your wife.
-The gouge out your eye/cut off scriptures are deeply troubling in the context of sexuality. There's unnatural sexual activity that you seek out and cultivate by the images/things that you surround yourself with, but...
- People get naturally aroused after a period of inactivity. It's going to happen and as a result you will think of someone in a sexual manor.
- If I think about robbing a bank because I'm having financial problems, it doesn't mean I'm going to do it. Thinking about a woman's body while you masturbate doesn't mean you're going to try to have sex with her.
I find people who say that masturbating is a gateway to serious sins are pontificating. "Nothing beyond what is written" is what the bible says.
- Tradition doesn't constitute biblical doctrine nor does cultural values of a time.
- Lust has an inspecific definition about improper sexual conduct and also about a craving desire. Pornea refers to fornication outside of marriage, incest, etc. There isn't anything about looking at women's bodies being "lust" or masturbation being lust.
- I've heard the argument that all masturbation is a sin, even in the context of marriage which I find to be ludicrous.
- If God created us to marry one person and have sex with one person, why is polygamy in the bible and accepted?
- If sex within marriage is the only acceptable sexual outlet why does Paul discourage people from marrying to focus on the Lord?
- Why does the Bible place a large emphasis on sexual immorality disqualifying you from salvation (1 Corin 6:9)? What about being overweight which significantly impairs all of your mental and bodily functions?
In short, it's extremely difficult to gain a simple understanding of acceptable sexual activity and have an intellectual understanding of what is and isn't ok.
To me, it raises questions of the divinity of the bible.
Oooooh, Henry Morris' kid. ROFL. Okay, I'm going to be looking over the 'evidence' now.
Could you get me a citing for the peer reviewed journal?
Oh, and you are in luck: I can read Chinese characters:
舟 is a stern-less boat, in compounds it can mean to convey
船 is a ship, it has been simplified from combining 舟 and the character for valley 谷 which can also have the meaning of being dug out, or carved. Chinese character etymologist believe this to refer to a ships expanded capacity for things such as cargo.
I'm no stranger to people trying to equate Chinese characters to biblical references, however the timeline and evidence just does not support that.
I'll get to more of your points later, but seriously, find me the article in the peer reviewed journal you want me to read. I'm assuming you attended university, and know what I am talking about.
Will write more after I've watched this film.
Could you get me a citing for the peer reviewed journal?
Oh, and you are in luck: I can read Chinese characters:
舟 is a stern-less boat, in compounds it can mean to convey
船 is a ship, it has been simplified from combining 舟 and the character for valley 谷 which can also have the meaning of being dug out, or carved. Chinese character etymologist believe this to refer to a ships expanded capacity for things such as cargo.
I'm no stranger to people trying to equate Chinese characters to biblical references, however the timeline and evidence just does not support that.
I'll get to more of your points later, but seriously, find me the article in the peer reviewed journal you want me to read. I'm assuming you attended university, and know what I am talking about.
Will write more after I've watched this film.
wait....so no communion? I'm lost.mac-boy said:
EDIT: A friend explained it. Wow, I didn't know I was actually supposed to think that was body and blood. I always figured it represented it.
Wnd what else? What about opinions on things such as masturbation, gay marriage, abortion, etc?
JackEtc said:
Many sects still do communion, but they don't think it turns to the body and blood of Christ. They believe it to be a ritual that symbolically refers back to the last supper.
As for the other stuff, there is a wide variety. However many people claiming to be Christian don't attend church, and don't read the bible. (In the US that is)
JackEtc said:
transubstantiation = trans substance ation = the process of changing one substance into another.
Now I don't know what the modern doctrine is of the Catholic church on the topic, however in the past it was believed that the instance of communion that the wine and bread literally became the blood and body of Christ.
Some sects of Christianity are very liberal and take a very figurative approach to the Bible and have disregarded many of the laws due to them not being applicable to modern times. Other sects have extremely literal interpretations of the Bible, these I am not a fan of at all. The notion that the Earth is young, that we should be stoning adulterers, the thought that dinosaur fossils are a trick by Satan etc.
JCRedeems, you are aware that the action of plate tectonics, glaciation and the wearing-down of landmasses over time will shift the appearance of the earth, causing mountains to rise where there once was ocean, drowning forests and cities, and reshaping our environment over time? It's not evidence of a literal flood at all to find marine fossils on currently high-up places.
Buckethead
Banned
- Praying to saints
- Prayer beads/rosary
- Hail Marys/Our Fathers
- Confessing to priests only
- Word "repentance" largely different from Greek "metanoia". Bad translation.
- Infant baptism/comfirmation
- Papal infallibility
- Ghosts are scary
- Prayer beads/rosary
- Hail Marys/Our Fathers
- Confessing to priests only
- Word "repentance" largely different from Greek "metanoia". Bad translation.
- Infant baptism/comfirmation
- Papal infallibility
- Ghosts are scary
grumble said:
No probably not, his evidence comes from John D. Morris, son of Henry Morris founder of the Creation Research Society, and both of them are young-earth-ers.
I don't even know how to pull someone this far back from the deep-end - it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the scientific method, and a distrust to anything that does not fit within their preconceived notions of reality.
Yes, I've gone to religious ed since 3rd grade every year. I never paid much attention, until the bullshit Confirmation classes started, and I began asking questions during the weekend retreats and 30-hour all-nighter church lock-ins.mac-boy said:
I would ask things like "Wait, so if God forgives sins, why can't we confess to him?" or, after being lectured about being involved with violent or sexualized media is a sin, "I want to write about video games, some of them violent. Am I going to hell?" And I would never get a straight answer. I would also ask things like "What makes Catholics different from normal Christians" and would never get a good response. That's the problem with Rel. Ed teachers, half of them don't even know anything about Christianity other than Catholicism, and most don't even know much about that.
They would give us bullshit lectures. Like how we should be saying grace and making the sign of the cross before eating ANYTHING. "Sure," they would say, "You may get harassed a little at school, but you should do it". Or that "If you masturbate, you are going to hell," or "If you were raped, you should have the child and raise it, because that's what good Catholics do"
Man, I wanted to punch them in the face.
JackEtc said:
Not that I want you to change to protestantism or anything, but you may be interested in reading Martin Luther's 95 Theses - It seems you have many of the same questions he did, excluding all the modern stuff.
Edit: Any I wouldn't worry about masturbation, sperm has a short 'shelf life', and gets reabsorbed by the body after they get too old to be able to fertilize an egg. And even before they get reabsorbed their age is disadvantageous to impregnation, the older the sperm the more likely health defects and retardation can occur in the infant.
In sophomore year we looked at this in history, and was really interested in it. It's just that it's so damn hard to get straight answers nowadays. You can't ask a priest, you can't ask parents, you can't really ask anyone that is too scared to reconsider their religion.ivedoneyourmom said:
I have thought about switching to Protestant when I turn 18 or head off to college, but I feel like nondenominational would be the way to go for me. There's so many denominations out there, I don't wanna make the wrong decision.
JackEtc said:
Have you thought about being a deist? It's what many of the founding fathers of the US believed. They believed the Universe to be created by an all benevolent god, however after the creation of the Universe god no longer intervened. - You don't have to believe in the word of the Bible to believe in a god.
You don't have to be limited to getting your beliefs from the Bible, it is only one source - all religions practice a certain amount of love, faith, charity, etc. The Bible was made by and for a culture many years ago, it is no doubt that it no longer works for us as it was intended. Just like you have a harder time understanding Shakespeare than Dan Brown, thoughts and priorities of cultures change through time - the lessons of Jesus, of love, peace, respect, etc are timeless - silly laws about eating pork or keeping slaves are not relevant any longer.
It's a wonder to me that more Christians don't move with the times - Isn't that what Christ preached, that the old laws needed a revision because they no longer suited their endogamous culture due to Roman rule and advancements in technology and communication?
JackEtc said:
Man I'm sorry to hear that your experience with learning about Catholicism was through religious ed. I was in Catholic school most of my life and I'd never get those ridiculous lectures (at least not as heavy handed) and my religion teachers were almost always courteous and often times emphasized the need to learn about other religions. My whole junior year in highschool was mainly about that and my senior year dealt with politics and working to help your fellow man. It was actually helpful in confirming my growing liberal beliefs at the time.
As for why Catholics can't just pray to God for forgiveness, the answer is that Catholics use the priest at confession as an arbiter basically. That and according to my one teacher it just feels better to hear someone tell you that you've got a clean slate after you tell the priest what you've done. And as for the whole "if you were raped you need to bear the child", that's crap. I remember learning about a procedure Catholic hospitals would use to remove the rapist's sperm as long as you went to them within 24 hours.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
True, many people think it's so simple...Buckethead said:
Yes. First of all, this is about a married man who has dedicated himself to a woman. Secondly, it seems to be about genuine desire for a real possibility. Like, the only thing stopping you are the consequences. You want to sleep with that woman? You want to kill that guy? What's stopping you? If it isn't the absence of real desire, but only the presence of consequences, you're no better than the people who do.
But is this to say a blind man can't lust? It seems to be something describing the severity of damnation and priority of making sure you don't get there.
I also see this in scripture. There doesn't seem to be any ultra-pure mindset entering into marriage, but people had the hots for each other. In 1 Corinthians 7 it even talks about "acting inappropriately" toward their betrothed because she grew up and got hot, with the recommendation to go ahead and get married earlier than planned. This is suggested as a notion of preventing sin from happening, not as though the desire in itself was sinful already.
Agreed.
It all has to do with the interpretive approach. Pornea has a very broad application, so some people interpret it to mean any desire which could possibly lead to immoral sexual activity. I think this is very flawed, because that is something biological and also demonstrated in scripture as something that can happen outside a sinful context.
To me it really seems as though it is talking about a desire that consumes you and truly leads you to action. The source could be many different things, but it is the end result that is important. Where it is condemned in scripture, the actual resulting action is always in view, so I don't see a reason to remove it and think that desire for sex in general is evil. How are you supposed to even be attracted to a woman to make you want to marry her if it can't be?
I actually never looked into this too far because it wasn't important to me and the New Testament seems to be against it. Just off the top of my head, I would say any words from God himself seem to only make mention of a person having one wife, and polygamy seems entirely man-originated idea. It was also the downfall of plenty of guys in scripture so it isn't exactly depicted in a healthy light. However, I also don't remember it being outright condemned, so I wonder.
He recommended this to the Corinthians who were suffering under persecution at the time, and recommended it with that in view. If you didn't know this was going on you may miss the reference in the epistle, but it is there and it also makes his other comments about being free of worry and not holding on too tightly to the things of this world make a lot more sense.
Sex appears to be a very big deal spiritually, far more than we realize. I already covered a lot of this in a previous post. Click here.
Much about sin has to do with what the actions in themselves are saying about God and the order of things. It is not just a misuse of our lives and bodies and resources, it is what we indirectly tell ourselves about life by living in such a way. You can see this in the other sins that are often listed in general condemned practices.
As for the notion of disqualification from salvation, that is a tricky deal. Many things that are listed in those types of lists are things that the early churches were busy practicing, yet while the apostles condemned the actions so strongly, they also in the same letter would speak confidently that those same Christians were saved and had the Holy Spirit and would be lead by him to live rightly.
So you have this confidence of status before God in Christ cleansing you of sins, even very recent sins, yet at the same time very strong warnings against those sins and that they lead people to be disqualified from entering eternal life. I think the basic idea is told in Galatians 5-6, where you see the nature of the spirit and flesh oppose each other. Sin chokes your love of God, and love of God chokes your love of sin. In the end, only Christ can decide where a person goes, but you want to play it safe, you want to be genuine.
With all this in mind, I have a few other points to consider which don't really make it any easier to sort out, but clarify what we're dealing with:
On the issue of porn, it's difficult to say anything clear. You aren't looking at a woman, you are looking at pixels representing images of how she once looked doing something. It is a record of a woman, but it is not a woman. So I don't see how any matter of sin related to actual interaction with a woman can be applied to it, only what happens in your mind and what went into making it come into play.
On the mental side of things, it is fairly vague because as we discussed, we have biological imperatives which make us think of women sexually. If there is a line to be crossed, from that which is natural to say, the training of your mind to view women in a degraded way, where is it crossed? There is a large difference between being in love with a girl and wanting to make love to her, or even simply desiring a woman to share that with, and viewing women as nothing more than sexual objects.
As I said before, a part of sin is not just the action but what it says about life and creation. I think at some point, the mind does cross from attraction and desire to a degradation, which is a perversion. In this sense it can be sinful, but I'm really uncertain as to how serious it is considered. All sin is condemnable and to be avoided, as we are to strive to be holy, yet some sins are described like they are a sure path to destruction, while others have more of a "we're bad, stuff happens" attitude of grace surrounding them.
The other side is obvious, which is what is required to make porn. You always have some woman getting naked for someone who is not her husband, and a lot of times you have outright fornication. By viewing it you are creating demand for it, so that should be considered. You want to have the opposite impact on the world, and that could be considered partaking in their deeds. Clearly a lot more comes into play with porn than just your own natural desires and thoughts, so I think it is best to avoid it.
Of course, this recommendation immediately brings into question what "counts" and what doesn't. Whether a woman is attractive to you or not seems to be a lot more important in terms of arousal than whether she is completely naked or in a bikini. Simulated sex in a film can be steamier than a porno where they actually have sex. So what is too far? What shouldn't be seen? What shouldn't be made? What shouldn't a woman reveal for anyone but her husband?
I still believe it has a lot to do with intent and where your mind is at. When they caught the woman in adultery and threw her before Jesus, I somehow doubt they even had the decency to throw clothes over her. And of course, there were plenty of places were sex was some sort of ritual and they'd be doing it in the open. It has a lot less to do with what you see and a lot more to do with where your heart is led by it. I think even strong sexual desires can be fine if you still retain desire for those things in their right context.
For me personally, I don't worry about it too much. Maybe I should more, but in general I try to be patient with myself as I would with someone I am discipling. I haven't gotten sexually involved with women, so I feel like I still have a strong respect for them and good self control. If I am honest with myself, I really do feel where my loneliness comes into play with my sexual desires. It's not just the sex I want, I want the whole deal, I want a wife. If I ever feel like my mind starts going down a perverted a path and isn't giving women their due as creations of God, I do get kind of sickened with myself and return to a better mind.
It certainly isn't as simple and clear as many make it out to be. They miss a lot of context, ignore passages that easily have implications toward sexuality, twist other things out of context. When you make a full analysis, it really does seem a lot more understanding of our human state, yet challenges us to live with more respect, dignity, and care for each other and ourselves as not only physical but spiritual beings.
Triggafinga
Banned
I'm a evangelical Christian born again last year may 9th holy may 2nd(such a good feeling i miss it)!!!!! Thats right ladies and gents! I disagree with Palin, Newt and huckabee on just about everything politically! Seriously im I weird?
I did do some other research, R.E. wasn't the only way I learned about my religion, I'm more curious than that.mac-boy said:
And that sperm removal thing is a little creepy.
I've said it before, but I think it's too late for me to go anywhere outside Christianity without feeling wrong.ivedoneyourmom said:
JackEtc said:
So don't reject the teachings of Christ, I think there are many wonderful things he said. But keep this in mind, Caesar was also the son of god, and he claimed the title of virgin birth after his rise to power - but he concerned himself int petty issues of money and territory. Now when Jesus gets called the "true" son of god, and is said to be of virgin birth - but he concerned himself with peace, the welfare of people, and love, could the title "true" son of god really be referencing Jesus' actions and morality? Not actually that he was literally born of a virgin, and that he was a combination of God's and Mary's DNA?
I believe people called him the "true" son of god because of his social stance, of his pure knowledgable teachings, and his rejection of current Jewish and Roman greed and immorality.
I think you can read the New Testament without a literal interpretation, and without any divine magic. I don't believe it is too late, you have your whole life ahead of you, and those 4 years at university are going to open your eyes and probably change your world view - I know it can be hard right now, but trust me it gets easier.
Some reading: http://serene-musings.blogspot.com/2007/04/origin-of-virgin-birth-stories.html
Bungalow Bob
Banned
The Roman Catholic Church is the wealthiest religious organization in the world. The reason for this is that they have superior techniques for retaining their members, converting new ones, and getting a lot of $/member. Having the rule that normal people can't confess directly to God helps their bottom line; it causes people to be more emotionally reliant on the church, go to church more often, and pay more money. They won't tell you this because that would be a poor business decision.JackEtc said:
The thing about not demonizing nor condoning popular things like M-rated video games is based on the same sound logic: if they were to say the games are acceptable then people would have less things to confess and they'd lose money; but if they were to say video games are a ticket straight to hell then some members would find that absurd, side with their video games and leave the church. The RCC walks a fine line in cases like this and they do it very well.
All that said, there is no other religious organization like the RCC, so if they help you sufficiently with your emotional well-being then the price is worth paying in your case. Just keep in mind that the priests almost invariably have severe sexual problems.
I'll just add one thing to what others have already mentioned: besides the Holy Trinity you have many other lesser gods (of which the virgin Mary is the most famous). One of these saved a pope's life by changing the path of a bullet that would have otherwise killed him. This lesser god didn't have enough power to change the bullet's path enough to make it miss the pope altogether, though.JackEtc said:
GhaleonQ
Member
Jack, with respect, I'd start reading before getting beliefs piecemeal from the Internet. Many people are smart here, but you kind of have to get a systemized belief system all in 1 go.
*Also wants to address Buckethead's intelligent concerns, but won't.* The last couple of questions are easily addressed in the biblical text itself, without interpretation.
Hm? I don't get any of what you said.
In any case, while I guess it could be considered more "useful" than extreme hedonistic materialism, honesty, humility, self-sacrifice, austerity, abstinence, and zealousness about truth are generally not popular opinions or helpful for fame, wealth, popularity, or pleasure. I'm not saying those are unique to Christianity, of course, nor that they prevent any of those successes from happening. It makes it far less likely.
*Also wants to address Buckethead's intelligent concerns, but won't.* The last couple of questions are easily addressed in the biblical text itself, without interpretation.
Bungalow Bob said:
Hm? I don't get any of what you said.
In any case, while I guess it could be considered more "useful" than extreme hedonistic materialism, honesty, humility, self-sacrifice, austerity, abstinence, and zealousness about truth are generally not popular opinions or helpful for fame, wealth, popularity, or pleasure. I'm not saying those are unique to Christianity, of course, nor that they prevent any of those successes from happening. It makes it far less likely.
Bungalow Bob
Banned
Are you unaware that there is an afterlife (at least according to Christians)?GhaleonQ said:
Your opinion about life being harder for Christians is puzzling. It's like saying that a person who decides to make a $1 investment today for a $1,000,000,000 return tomorrow is making a hard decision, and must be very generous and self-sacrificing. The main point of the Bible is that Christianity is a huge advantage in every day life; and it makes this point very convincingly. This is why many non-believers call Christianity a crutch (i.e. something that helps to make things easier).
I hope that everyone else in this thread realizes that Christians are just making the obvious, rational decision when they worship God, just like the guy making the investment in the above paragraph.
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