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[Dunk#7]

repentance is quite different from faith.
there's sanctification through continual repentance and there's grace through faith. both are married, but distinctly different
and repentance isn't a "change of mind in regards to how you take Jesus Christ." but a change of mind of how we view our own sins.

So you believe that you have to continually repent in order to enter Heaven?

What happens if you just happen to have a bad thought right before you have a major stroke or heart attack and you never had the opportunity or time to repent?

If you stack repentance on top of grace then grace loses its meaning. You cannot put anything on top of grace. It is unmerited favor that we do not deserve.

What Jesus did on the cross was payment for all sins past, present, and future. Once you accept what He has done your sins have been paid in full.

You should continually be working on removing sin from your life and living to be a better Christian, but it is not essential for salvation.

 

[Chaplain]

So you believe that you have to continually repent in order to enter Heaven?

What happens if you just happen to have a bad thought right before you have a major stroke or heart attack and you never had the opportunity or time to repent?

If you stack repentance on top of grace then grace loses its meaning. You cannot put anything on top of grace. It is unmerited favor that we do not deserve.

What Jesus did on the cross was payment for all sins past, present, and future. Once you accept what He has done your sins have been paid in full.

You should continually be working on removing sin from your life and living to be a better Christian, but it is not essential for salvation.

If we are abiding in Christ, the blood of Christ continually cleanses us of all sins. A believer has nothing to worry about. They are saved and continually being saved.

But if a believer continually lives in sin, like doing drugs every day, there is no scripture that says they are secure in their salvation.

I am not talking about working for salvation. This is a gift of God and cannot be earned.

 

[Dunk#7]

If other scriptures didn't support it I wouldn't believe it:

Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons."

"When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God."

“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

Thank you for the attacking my understanding of scripture.

I am on your side man. No need to be sarcastically mean. We are both seeking answers.

I am not trying to attack you or your views. We are both Christians.

My only point is that in those verses it is never clear as to whether the subject was ever saved.

If we are abiding in Christ, the blood of Christ continually cleanses us of all sins. A believer has nothing to worry about. They are saved and continually being saved.

But if a believer continually lives in sin, like doing drugs every day, there is no scripture that says they are secure in their salvation.

I am not talking about working for salvation. This is a gift of God and cannot be earned.

You just said we are continually cleansed of all of our sins. So if somebody was continually sinning wouldn't their sins continually be covered?

I would question the original salvation if one is very far off track and continually living in sin. I am not the one to judge that situation, but that is the way I would look at it.

 

[Chaplain]

I am on your side man. No need to be sarcastically mean. We are both seeking answers.

I am not trying to attack you or your views. We are both Christians.

My only point is that in those verses it is never clear as to whether the subject was ever saved.

Each of those verses is talking to and only to Christians. That is the context. Unbelievers do not need to be warned because they are not saved. They belong to Satan. They are already deceived. That is why John, Jude, Paul, and Peter warn believers in their writings because walking away from our salvation is real. At any time I can walk away from God and say I do not want salvation any more. God will not force someone to remain saved if they do not want to be saved.

That is why Jesus said that these people healed and cast out demons because they were saved. But at some point they went back into sin and stayed their. Only God though will know who are truly His. That is why Jesus said not to worry about it and just focus on Him.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

I have a question...

How do you guys think Heaven is like?

 

[DeathIsTheEnd]

I have a question...

How do you guys think Heaven is like?

On this subject, do you have free will in heaven?

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Each of those verses is talking to and only to Christians. That is the context. Unbelievers do not need to be warned because they are not saved. They belong to Satan. They are already deceived. That is why John, Jude, Paul, and Peter warn believers in their writings because walking away from your salvation is real.

That is why Jesus said that these people healed and cast out demons because they were saved. But at some point they went back into sin and stayed their. Only God though will know who are truly His. That is why Jesus said not to worry about it and just focus on Him.

But I think one of our duties as Christians is to teach that Jesus is our savior to the unbelievers...

 

[Dunk#7]

Each of those verses is talking to and only to Christians. That is the context. Unbelievers do not need to be warned because they are not saved. They belong to Satan. They are already deceived. That is why John, Jude, Paul, and Peter warn believers in their writings because walking away from our salvation is real. At any time I can walk away from God and say I do not want salvation any more. God will not force someone to remain saved if they do not want to be saved.

That is why Jesus said that these people healed and cast out demons because they were saved. But at some point they went back into sin and stayed their. Only God though will know who are truly His. That is why Jesus said not to worry about it and just focus on Him.

Even if those verses are talking directly to Christians could they not be talking to them but not about them?

Couldn't they be telling them about the actions of the unsaved?

 

[Chaplain]

You just said we are continually cleansed of all of our sins. So if somebody was continually sinning wouldn't their sins continually be covered?

If we are abiding in Christ. That is the key.

Jesus said, "Remain in me, and I will remain in you."

I would question the original salvation if one is very far off track and continually living in sin. I am not the one to judge that situation, but that is the way I would look at it.

I agree. Was the person really saved? Only God knows.

What I do know is that the Apostle Paul talks about believers who were used mightily by God who went back to be with Satan. I think this is why the writers of Hebrews said this to believers:

"Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. Remember what it says:

“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled.”

 

[Dunk#7]

On this subject, do you have free will in heaven?

This is not known. Don't try to spark an argument.

We will know when we get there.

Our human minds cannot understand everything.

Ex. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man
Ex. God has always existed (No beginning)

 

[DeathIsTheEnd]

This is not known. Don't try to spark an argument.

We will know when we get there.

Our human minds cannot understand everything.

Ex. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man
Ex. God has always existed (No beginning)

I'm not trying to spark an argument at all. I was just interested in other people's views on the subject.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

This is not known. Don't try to spark an argument.

We will know when we get there.

Our human minds cannot understand everything.

Ex. Jesus was 100% God and 100% man
Ex. God has always existed (No beginning)

By brain always boils when I try to understand this.

 

[Dunk#7]

What I do know is that the Apostle Paul talks about believers who were used mightily by God who went back to be with Satan. I think this is why the writers of Hebrews said this to believers:

"Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ. Remember what it says:

“Today when you hear his voice,
don’t harden your hearts
as Israel did when they rebelled.”

But how do we know if it is talking about fully losing salvation or if it is simply talking about losing a close relationship with God?

 

[Chaplain]

But I think one of our duties as Christians is to teach that Jesus is our savior to the unbelievers...

Of course! Unbelievers are held captive by Satan to do his will and blinded to the truth of God. They need to hear about Jesus and what He did to free them from slavery. That is the focus of the Gospels.

Couldn't they be telling them about the actions of the unsaved?

The context will determine if that is the case. But in each case that I listed, Paul was talking to believers about going back into sin. Like in these verses for example:

So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.

 

[The Lamp]

I would like to answer your question if you do not mind.

There is a simple way to understand this. Salvation is very much like a marriage. At any time I can leave my wife and divorce her. This is the same thing with my relationship with God. At any time I can walk away from God and go back to my life.

Knowing this, the majority of the writings in the New Testament are focused on warning believers not to walk away from God. If believers could not lose their salvation, there would be no need to warn believers about losing it.

The Apostle Peter talks about Christians who became false prophets and lost their faith because of it.
The Apostle John also talks about believers who walked away from God and lost their salvation.

Can these people repent and turn back to Christ? Of course!

God will not force anyone to be with him though. Very much like my wife does not want me to stay with her if I do not want to be with her and vice versa.

Jesus said that each day we must make the choice to walk with God or not walk with Him. We are given freewill after we have been saved to continue living for God or for ourselves.

I believe there's a distinction to be made. You can choose to abandon God, and therefore you obviously choose to reject Christ's sacrifice, in which case you're not saved. But that's different from the idea of, say, being able to lose your salvation from being a prodigal and falling into sin.

I believe that if you are truly saved, you're going to want to follow God's will, because your life is no longer your own. But since love covers a multitude of sin, and God's love is ultimate, of which Christians try to emulate, you cannot sin your way out of your salvation. When you choose to receive Christ, it's a lifelong commitment. It's fake if you just give it up and abandon it, in my opinion, because it means you didn't understand what "taking up your cross and following Him" meant. Paul said he died daily, continually fighting his flesh.

The Bible is clear that the saved are no longer condemned by their sins, but rewarded and blessed for their fruits.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:28)

It wouldn't be eternal life if it wasn't eternal.

I like this scripture in reference:

"By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:10-15)

One who chooses to receive Christ, but doesn't invest in the foundation of that relationship, won't receive the blessing he might have had he done so, but his salvation isn't lost.

But then again, that scripture seems to be referring to complacent Christians, not ones who decide to totally abandon their faiths.

That's how I see things I suppose.

I for one struggle with a certain sin very often, but I'm always trying to seek God to deliver me from it, even though I often fall into it. I don't think I've lost my salvation just because I sin.

It's all about the attitude. How do you see your sin? Do you see it as poisonous to your relationship with Christ, or do you not recognize it as wrong? One is repentance and the other isn't.

 

[Chaplain]

But how do we know if it is talking about fully losing salvation or if it is simply talking about losing a close relationship with God?

Because if we read through the scriptures we will see that a person can lose it.

"For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame." - Hebrews 6:4-6

The Apostles knew the reality of what can happen to a believer if they walked away from Christ. That is why we are warned to exhort each other and stay on track by not living for sin.

Will we mess up? Of course! Every day we can and will sin. We must do our best to do what Jesus says and stay close to Him. Satan is always on the prowl to see which believer can be taken out.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

So you believe that you have to continually repent in order to enter Heaven?

What happens if you just happen to have a bad thought right before you have a major stroke or heart attack and you never had the opportunity or time to repent?

If you stack repentance on top of grace then grace loses its meaning. You cannot put anything on top of grace. It is unmerited favor that we do not deserve.

What Jesus did on the cross was payment for all sins past, present, and future. Once you accept what He has done your sins have been paid in full.

You should continually be working on removing sin from your life and living to be a better Christian, but it is not essential for salvation.

when i wrote to "continually repent" i meant with a repentant heart. but let's be honest, we sin every day of our lives. of course we should repent daily. God intends all of his children to be the image of God. that means physically and spiritually. Continual sanctification is the process of every true believer. it is complete at judgement.

But back to my original reply. faith alone does not get you into heaven.
its with a repentant heart through faith that one achieves salvation.

 

[JGS]

Yes, but just because they almost always co-exist does not mean that the works are necessary.

Works should be evident in a Christians life, but they are not part of salvation.

Works and faith are entwined, but the opportunity for salvation requires no works or faith. This is why I was trying to stay out of it since from my POV you can't have one without the other.

What about the person that accepts Christ on their deathbed? Works are not required for salvation. Jesus paid it all. We can do nothing to merit Heaven. Even our best is but filthy rags unto God the Bible says.

A person who accepts Christ on his deathbed is still not a Christian. They receive salvation through the benefits of the Ransom and God's undeserved kindness. There are also others called unrighteous that get life since they are ignorant. They aren't Christian either.

A perfect example is the criminal hanging next to Jesus. Unlike Jesus, he deserved to be there & never became a disciple. However, in that fleeting moment of hanging next to Jesus and seeing the clear inequity of the punishment, Jesus promised him salvation.

Those scenarios have nothing to do with being a Christian and the only true Christian is a practicing one and that requires all the activities that are mentioned in the NT.

This is why Christianity is totally voluntary. It not only involves doing things but willingly doing them, wanting to since that is a display of the faith. Not wanting to do works but professing faith just isn't compatible with the examples we see in both the NT & OT. In fact, ones who did not display the faith they claimed to have usually became a sign of what not to do.

 

[Chaplain]

I for one struggle with a certain sin very often, but I'm always trying to seek God to deliver me from it, even though I often fall into it. I don't think I've lost my salvation just because I sin.

The fact that you admitted that you are striving to do what God says shows you belong to Him and His Word abides in you. But if you committed those sins and did not care then I would be concerned about your relationship with God.

How do you see your sin? Do you see it as poisonous to your relationship with Christ, or do you not recognize it as wrong? One is repentance and the other isn't.

I recognize it as wrong and it doesn't just hurt me but those I love. Sin wants to hurt us and bring division between God and those we love.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Do you guys think it was harder or easier before Christ?

 

[The Lamp]

when i wrote to "continually repent" i meant with a repentant heart. but let's be honest, we sin every day of our lives. of course we should repent daily. God intends all of his children to be the image of God. that means physically and spiritually. Continual sanctification is the process of every true believer. it is complete at judgement.

But back to my original reply. faith alone does not get you into heaven.
its with a repentant heart through faith that one achieves salvation.

Repentance is more of an attitude and submission of the heart.
It's not like if you angrily insulted someone one day, and forgot about it, and forgot to ask God for forgiveness, you'll go to Hell. God paid for those sins, past, present, and future, and you accepted that gift with your salvation.

In fact it's quite possible that you sin so much you can't keep track of it, that's fine! Go to the Lord like, "I am quite sinful. Create in me a new heart, God!", just keep an attitude of repentance.

Do you guys think it was harder or easier before Christ?

You mean the Old Covenant? Hebrews talks a lot about why we're so blessed to have the burden of the Old Covenant fulfilled through Christ.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Repentance is more of an attitude and submission of the heart.
It's not like if you angrily insulted someone one day, and forgot about it, and forgot to ask God for forgiveness, you'll go to Hell. God paid for those sins, past, present, and future, and you accepted that gift with your salvation.

In fact it's quite possible that you sin so much you can't keep track of it, that's fine! Go to the Lord like, "I am quite sinful. Create in me a new heart, God!", just keep an attitude of repentance.





You mean the Old Covenant? Hebrews talks a lot about why we're so blessed to have the burden of the Old Covenant fulfilled through Christ.

I agree.

 

[Dunk#7]

Works and faith are entwined, but the opportunity for salvation requires no works or faith. This is why I was trying to stay out of it since from my POV you can't have one without the other.

A person who accepts Christ on his deathbed is still not a Christian. They receive salvation through the benefits of the Ransom and God's undeserved kindness. There are also others called unrighteous that get life since they are ignorant. They aren't Christian either.

A perfect example is the criminal hanging next to Jesus. Unlike Jesus, he deserved to be there & never became a disciple. However, in that fleeting moment of hanging next to Jesus and seeing the clear inequity of the punishment, Jesus promised him salvation.

Those scenarios have nothing to do with being a Christian and the only true Christian is a practicing one and that requires all the activities that are mentioned in the NT.

This is why Christianity is totally voluntary. It not only involves doing things but willingly doing them, wanting to since that is a display of the faith. Not wanting to do works but professing faith just isn't compatible with the examples we see in both the NT & OT. In fact, ones who did not display the faith they claimed to have usually became a sign of what not to do.

That depends on your definition of "Christian" I agree with you if your definition of Christian is somebody that lives for Christ.

However regardless as to what you call them people who accept Christ on their deathbed are still saved and admitted into Heaven regardless of their works in life.

 

[Dunk#7]

I think we should just let the "can you lose your salvation" argument go. There are verses that support both sides and we will probably never agree.

But the good news it that it does not affect how you gain salvation. We can all rest in that fact.

The document below gives a good overview of the argument from both sides. There isn't really a right or wrong as nobody can really be sure.

Can the believer lose his salvation?

This question often comes up in discussions among Christians and there is a healthy debate on whether or not it is possible to lose your salvation. The question and the answer are important because they can affect your relationship with God. For example, if someone believes that he can lose his salvation then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can't be lost no matter how much he sins. This also is very wrong (Rom. 6:1-2,11-12). The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7).

Fortunately whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn't dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.

The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Rom. 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Rom. 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Tim. 2:15).

There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4-6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27-28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38-39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God, only in our uninspired misunderstanding.

It is my opinion, and I stress opinion, that it is not possible to lose one's salvation. I base this on scriptures that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish. If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective, that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6). However, 1 John 2:19 says in dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us," (NASB). I see this verse saying two things: First, that if it appears that false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, they will remain in the faith.

Nevertheless, there are different positions on this issue. One position states that it is possible to lose your salvation, but only if you want to. In other words, having been set free from sin, the person is then able by an act of will to deny the Lord and desire not to be a part of Him any longer.

Another position states that it is possible to lose your salvation if you sin too much. Then you need to go and confess your sin and get saved again. This has obvious problems because it could lead to someone trusting in his works and God's grace to be saved.

Another position states that it is not possible at all to lose your salvation, that because Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17) you cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do, then also, losing it can't occur because of anything you do.

Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree, can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.

http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/can-believer-lose-his-salvation

 

[JGS]

Do you guys think it was harder or easier before Christ?

OT was definitely harder. In fact, there was no way it could have been easier since there was no way to measure up to a standard.

It's kind of amazing to think about. If Jesus had not died & since God's standard does not change, the minimum requirement for God's approval would still be:

- Animal sacrifices
- Holding to a Law that was impossible to uphold
- Limit salvation to a particular geographical area. You didn't have to be a natural Jew, but worship was based around Jerusalem.
- Never reaching perfection in any way shape or form since animals would never cut it
- In reality, already being cut off from God as a result of political alliances, false teachings, corruption, & greed.

 

[JGS]

That depends on your definition of "Christian" I agree with you if your definition of Christian is somebody that lives for Christ.

However regardless as to what you call them people who accept Christ on their deathbed are still saved and admitted into Heaven regardless of their works in life.

we aren't worthy enough to make that determination, just like we can't determine who is doomed.

We can't even assume our own salvation- especially if we don't follow the Biblical definition of a Christian.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

That depends on your definition of "Christian" I agree with you if your definition of Christian is somebody that lives for Christ.

living/working for christ does not make you a born again christian.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

will of the Father is simply works done on earth for your rewards in heaven.
edit: but i understood what you meant. i was just giving you unnecessary shit.

 

[legend166]

Thanks for the replies phisheep, much appreciated. I've got to go get ready for work now but I'll reply later with some thoughts.

 

[phisheep]

faith alone doesn't redeem you.
people get heated because they are passionate about how others are spreading the gospels.
i would think its that same mindset you have to defend the catholic doctrine in this thread.

but less hot.

Thank you!

It's the bolded bit that seems odd to me - because it is the bit that most doesn't work about spreading the gospel.

Like everybody else, I suppose, I get my fair share of door-knockers of various faiths - about five different denominations over the years. And the opening line of a majority of them is always on some minor pointless doctrinal thing or a trivial bit of biblical interpretation that when it comes down to it really is neither here nor there. Now, that's not to belittle the Bible, but it is a rotten sales technique if you are trying to spread the gospel to unbelievers.

It gives out the same dishonest feeling you'd get from a guy who turned up at your door trying to sell you a car and opened by rubbishing the drive-train of BMWs for 10 minutes and only then revealing he's a salesman for Mitsubishi or something.

That sort of thing might go down fine if whoever he is selling to is (a) a petrolhead and (b) has not got a BMW. But it would go right over the head of someone who doesn't have a car. And if you want to spread the gospel to people who actually haven't heard it before, going into minutiae is the wrong way to do it. It'll only work if you are trying to steal people from other churches, and then it won't work all that well.

So I'm really really not convinced that all these doctrinal niceties are of any value at all in selling/spreading the gospel.

EDIT: To put it another way, too often it seems that street evangelists are trying to get you to join their church rather than just some church, so they emphasise the differences rather than what is in common - and that spreads confusion and bewilderment rather than good news.

 

[JGS]

Thank you!

It's the bolded bit that seems odd to me - because it is the bit that most doesn't work about spreading the gospel.

Like everybody else, I suppose, I get my fair share of door-knockers of various faiths - about five different denominations over the years. And the opening line of a majority of them is always on some minor pointless doctrinal thing or a trivial bit of biblical interpretation that when it comes down to it really is neither here nor there. Now, that's not to belittle the Bible, but it is a rotten sales technique if you are trying to spread the gospel to unbelievers.

It gives out the same dishonest feeling you'd get from a guy who turned up at your door trying to sell you a car and opened by rubbishing the drive-train of BMWs for 10 minutes and only then revealing he's a salesman for Mitsubishi or something.

That sort of thing might go down fine if whoever he is selling to is (a) a petrolhead and (b) has not got a BMW. But it would go right over the head of someone who doesn't have a car. And if you want to spread the gospel to people who actually haven't heard it before, going into minutiae is the wrong way to do it. It'll only work if you are trying to steal people from other churches, and then it won't work all that well.

So I'm really really not convinced that all these doctrinal niceties are of any value at all in selling/spreading the gospel.

EDIT: To put it another way, too often it seems that street evangelists are trying to get you to join their church rather than just some church, so they emphasise the differences rather than what is in common - and that spreads confusion and bewilderment rather than good news.

That's kind of the misconception of what these people are trying to do. It's not so much that they are searching out non-believers as much as they are searching for people looking for solutions. For ones not really interested, they should do as Jesus instructed and move on.

They should, imo, note the differences. I would never want to be associated with a religion that emphasizes Hell, so i wouldn't want to instruct or be silent on that particular belief

Their religion, amidst all the other ones is the one with those answers. It goes along with something I said earlier- the only correct religion is the one you belong to.

So, it would be against their beliefs to simply direct you to some church. Honestly that tends to be a non-believer's view- that all religions are the same. The religious find distinct differences between them. Heck, they may not even know the other guy's religion.

 

[Dunk#7]

Works and faith are entwined, but the opportunity for salvation requires no works or faith. This is why I was trying to stay out of it since from my POV you can't have one without the other.

What do you do with the following verse?

Romans 4:5

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

 

[JGS]

What do you do with the following verse?

Romans 4:5

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Romans 4 proves the point.

Paul is comparing ones who focus on works pertaining to the Law as a sign of faith with Abraham who was faithful without the Law. I didn't say anywhere that we should follow the Lw because both Jesus and Paul have both said it's no longer needed.

Abraham's entire life sums up why you cannot seperate the two (As is the case with paul the writer of Romans). Abraham worked hard his entire life to remain faithful to God. They went together, faith and works. It was totally natural and not even an expectation. Because of this he was God's friend.

If you had one, you had the other. Rather than looking at it as a list, it's better to look at faith and works as a circular thing.

Although actions were not the main thrust of Romans, Romans 12 & 13 flesh out some minimum expectations of Christians.

 

[Dunk#7]

Romans 4 proves the point.

Paul is comparing ones who focus on works pertaining to the Law as a sign of faith with Abraham who was faithful without the Law. I didn't say anywhere that we should follow the Lw because both Jesus and Paul have both said it's no longer needed.

Abraham's entire life sums up why you cannot seperate the two (As is the case with paul the writer of Romans). Abraham worked hard his entire life to remain faithful to God. They went together, faith and works. It was totally natural and not even an expectation. Because of this he was God's friend.

If you had one, you had the other. Rather than looking at it as a list, it's better to look at faith and works as a circular thing.

Although actions were not the main thrust of Romans, Romans 12 & 13 flesh out some minimum expectations of Christians.

Ok, but Abraham was around before Jesus died to pay for the sin debt.

Of course works were involved during OT times.

What Abraham had to do and what we have to do are two different things

 

[JGS]

Ok, but Abraham was around before Jesus died to pay for the sin debt.

Of course works were involved during OT times.

What Abraham had to do and what we have to do are two different things

Again, this doesn't matter in relation to faith.

Faith has been a requirement since before Jesus. In fact, Adam & Eve needed it but failed.

Paul's point was that Abraham's faith was manifest long before any Laws requiring works were established. Abraham's faith works on the same guidelines that Christian's faith does (Actually it's the same as the ones under the Law too).

That makes sense since it's all based on the exact same thing- fulfillment of God's promises. Faith makes you want to do things for God. I'm not really arguing either...or, Im arguing that both are needed because one does not exist without the other.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

I started to read the Bible two days ago. I finally decided to read the Bible after so many years...

I want to read it completely... so far I'm in the middle of Genesis.

I just want to express how happy I am in this moment of my life... I just recently started going to the Church every Sunday... I'm taking some classes... I just got baptized too, at the age of 26 just a few weeks ago.

I have seen changes in my life... I try to not curse anymore... I don't drink or smoke anymore... I try to be better at my job, with my friends and family too...

My thoughts a few years ago were always: "I will change later... I will read the Bible later... I will go to the Church later... I will do all that when I feel more prepared..."

But if we wait, we will never going to be prepared. Just do it. Just take the decision... right now is the time.

You guys in this thread that have said that you want to start going to the Church again or read the Bible again or start praying again, just do it.

If you guys are waiting to be more prepared, that day will never come. Start today with a pray tonight and ask God to be part of your life.

Thank you guys for keeping this thread alive... this thread has also helped me in some ways.

God bless you, guys.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Good night, guys... I'm going to keep reading a few more minutes...

I hope we can discuss about the Genesis tomorrow.

 

[phisheep]

G'night Fernando ... I can still never quite get the hang of other people going to bed just as I'm getting up ...

 

[TaeOH]

I started to read the Bible two days ago. I finally decided to read the Bible after so many years...

I want to read it completely... so far I'm in the middle of Genesis.

I just want to express how happy I am in this moment of my life... I just recently started going to the Church every Sunday... I'm taking some classes... I just got baptized too, at the age of 26 just a few weeks ago.

I have seen changes in my life... I try to not curse anymore... I don't drink or smoke anymore... I try to be better at my job, with my friends and family too...

My thoughts a few years ago were always: "I will change later... I will read the Bible later... I will go to the Church later... I will do all that when I feel more prepared..."

But if we wait, we will never going to be prepared. Just do it. Just take the decision... right now is the time.

You guys in this thread that have said that you want to start going to the Church again or read the Bible again or start praying again, just do it.

If you guys are waiting to be more prepared, that day will never come. Start today with a pray tonight and ask God to be part of your life.

Thank you guys for keeping this thread alive... this thread has also helped me in some ways.

God bless you, guys.

Congratulations on the Baptism.

I like this devotional...
http://www.christianbook.com/for-th...de=WW&netp_id=449396&event=ESRCN&view=details

It uses a pretty common plan on getting through the bible and I like the commentary. D.A. Carson is one of my favorite theologians living today.

 

[TaeOH]

I am on the once saved always saved side of interpretation. You cannot sin your way out of Gods love as Christs sacrifice is sufficient once and for all.

Works is an entirely different matter in my mind. This is showing Christian love and they always accompany true repentance and saving faith. You can do good works and still sin at the the same time, matter of fact you will. This is why we are to set our minds on the things above, so they can eventually replace the sinful desires.

I think the problem really comes in is when Christians judge another mans works, I don't take kindly to people telling me I am in sin or not being a Christian when they don't know me at all. These type of conversations are between those involved is a personal fellowship and most of those conversations should remain private.

 

[Raist]

I started to read the Bible two days ago. I finally decided to read the Bible after so many years...

I want to read it completely... so far I'm in the middle of Genesis.

I just want to express how happy I am in this moment of my life... I just recently started going to the Church every Sunday... I'm taking some classes... I just got baptized too, at the age of 26 just a few weeks ago.

I have seen changes in my life... I try to not curse anymore... I don't drink or smoke anymore... I try to be better at my job, with my friends and family too...

My thoughts a few years ago were always: "I will change later... I will read the Bible later... I will go to the Church later... I will do all that when I feel more prepared..."

But if we wait, we will never going to be prepared. Just do it. Just take the decision... right now is the time.

You guys in this thread that have said that you want to start going to the Church again or read the Bible again or start praying again, just do it.

If you guys are waiting to be more prepared, that day will never come. Start today with a pray tonight and ask God to be part of your life.

Thank you guys for keeping this thread alive... this thread has also helped me in some ways.

God bless you, guys.

Why did you need the bible and go to church to make these changes to your life?
Honest question I mean, I'm intrigued.

 

[Chaplain]

I am on the once saved always saved side of interpretation. You cannot sin your way out of Gods love as Christs sacrifice is sufficient once and for all.

"For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame." - Hebrews 6:4-6

"When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God." Galatians 5

"Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ." Hebrews 4

All I am saying is it is wrong to say the Apostles never said you could reject salvation once you are saved.

 

[JGS]

I am on the once saved always saved side of interpretation. You cannot sin your way out of Gods love as Christs sacrifice is sufficient once and for all.

This is true but it's not really linked to salvation. God loves everyone and the sacrifice allows salvation for everyone- even the worst of us. It does not guarentee salvation for everyone. In fact, most aren't.

As an example, it was prophesied by Jesus that the love of the greater number would cool off- discussing an apostasy with in the church. This apostasy was so great that the true worshippers would be in the minority.

Now if it was once saved always saved, then it wouldn't even matter if an apostasy would occur. These were people who gave their lives to God, dedicated themselves, got baptized, preached, & then stopped and started teaching things contrary to Doctrine. Why would these ones be saved when they may be responsible for thousands, millions, maybe billions of people being led away from salvation?

This does not include the much smaller number of atheist out there who became so after rejecting God or the ones who reject him after church abuse or who were forced to accept a particular religion.

I'm not meaning to argue this too much, but it just seems there's little support to suggest that ones can be saved regardless of sin. It makes meaningless ll thescriptures revolving around repentance, repercusssion, expuslision for the church, apostasy, true knowledge, etc...

I think the problem really comes in is when Christians judge another mans works, I don't take kindly to people telling me I am in sin or not being a Christian when they don't know me at all. These type of conversations are between those involved is a personal fellowship and most of those conversations should remain private.

This is true. Men cannot judge who gains salvations. However, there's two sideds to every coin. Man cannot determine who is doomed and they can't determine who is saved. Only the judge of those things can do so and the judgements are decided by Jesus &/or God.

By holding a once saved always saved view, we may make the decision for God on who will be saved and I can only think that will lead to disappointment as some that may have been saved at one point has no business gaining the reward of salvation now.

As an aside, I do believe that the congregation has the right to judge those within the congregation assuming the teachings aren't followed. However, what happens in relation to salvation remains between that individual and God.

 

[Slo]

This is not known. Don't try to spark an argument.

We will know when we get there.

Our human minds cannot understand everything.

So is this a thread for open discussion about things people don't understand, or just a raw-raw thread?

 

[JGS]

I thought I had answered that question, but can't find it. Just in case I'll be succinct:

There is free will in heaven

 

[Chaplain]

I like this devotional...
http://www.christianbook.com/for-th...de=WW&netp_id=449396&event=ESRCN&view=details

Here is a list of free daily online devotionals:

Daily Devotional with Pastor Jon
Daily Devotions with Greg Laurie
Daily Devotional with Bob Coy
Today's Devotion from Mike MacIntosh
Daily Devotional with Raul Ries
Daily Devotional with Alistair Begg

 

[Slo]

I thought I had answered that question, but can't find it. Just in case I'll be succinct:

There is free will in heaven

So the obvious next question is since all the wrongs, evils, and general nastiness's that exist in the world are necessary trade offs for free will to exist, will they also exist in heaven?

 

[JGS]

So the obvious next question is since all the wrongs, evils, and general nastiness's that exist in the world are necessary trade offs for free will to exist, will they also exist in heaven?

Evil did exist in heaven. It's where Satan & the demons resided.

However, free will does not mandate evil existing.

 

[Slo]

Evil did exist in heaven. It's where Satan & the demons resided.

However, free will does not mandate evil existing.

I'm really confused about this. It seems every time I read a discussion about why God allows bad things to happen, etc. the answer comes down to he has to because if we were only allowed to do good, then we wouldn't have free will.

Could you please correct me?

 

[devenger]

God bless you, guys.

This is when I have no problem with religion. I've tried to stay out of your thread so as not to derail it, dropping in with a question here and there. I'm an atheist, I doubt my mind will ever change on that, and I have no desire to change anyone else's mind, because what if I'm wrong?

I think Raist's question is a valid one: all of this can, and is, done without the Bible every day. But results are results, whatever gets you in movement. I just wanted to drop back in and say way to go, Fernando.

Now don't make me regret this Let some gays get married and keep an open mind about science.

 

[JGS]

I'm really confused about this. It seems every time I read a discussion about why God allows bad things to happen, etc. the answer comes down to he has to because if we were only allowed to do good, then we wouldn't have free will.

Could you please correct me?

We are supposed to do only good with free will. The only reason why evil exists at all is because God set a standard for what is evil, not the expectation that we engage in it.

I never really understood that argument since the main issue is revealed numerous times in the Bible.

The primary issue is whether or not people (& angels) are better off living outside God's standards. The vast majority of people say "Yes, we are better off". God is saying "Prove it and I'll leave you alone but you always have to keep a contingent there that wants to worship me or I'll make sure there is one."

This group has a secondary challenge that accuses them of worshipping God only because of blessing received or promised to rather than just wanting to. This success was achieved by many, but perfected in Jesus.

Free will is always there. The challenge is voluntarily giving up that freedom and living for God. Most people say no and as a result of those decision, they and innocent people suffer as a direct consequence of those decisions.

Salvation basically means that God is so confident that you'll use your free will to worship him that he rewards you for that faith.