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Christianity |OT| The official thread of hope, faith and infinite love.
- Thread starter Fernando Rocker
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Fernando Rocker
Banned
I have been reading the Genesis... Chapter 46 right now.
Well... the times sure were a lot different back then. A lot different. I'm at work right now, but I will post some examples in a few minutes.
Well... the times sure were a lot different back then. A lot different. I'm at work right now, but I will post some examples in a few minutes.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
Game Analyst said:
Thanks for your response...
=)
ugh....I HATE how religion and politics are so intertwined in America. I was visiting in-laws this past week and had to hear about how the wife & I needed to have more children so that we can have more voters who are Believers in this country. That this is was the only way to stop the Gay Agenda from ruining America =/
JGS said:
I know all these scriptures and I know what they mean and I know the context. How we walk with Christ and become more like him is very important as it leads to a victorious life. We run the race to win. But if a man repents of his rebellion and receives the free gift by believing in God's only Son, he has eternal life. That is it. And I will reject out of hand any compromise to that. The word never teaches that if you continue to sin that you will lose salvation once it is gained. It only ever questions the lack of fruit of men who claim to be Christians but appear to have a worldly focus.
Many passages warn of the harm Sin does in ones life, I am not denying that. I am not recommending people continue to do things that will have dire consequences in this life.
But it is my opinion that to teach that if you "backslide" you can lose your salvation, you are teaching something that only serves as an unwarranted scare tactic.
I am simply stating the Gospel. What it takes to be saved.
(edit: I backed off the word heresy, but I understand your interpretation. I don't agree with it, but I understand where it comes from)
Fernando Rocker
Banned
What do you guys think about secular things?
Secular music, movies, etc?
Secular music, movies, etc?
I have no problems with tempting heresy if the teaching itself isn't clear. I'll take my chances for clarity's sake.TaeOH said:
I guess my confusion lies in the once saved always saved belief because one can repent and then rebel, so I'm not grasping how they can still be saved. None of the verses both you and I understand lead to that conclusion- that on the very last day of judgement, one who has rebelled somehow has gained salvation despite his rebellion because of the faith he used to have.
Otherwise, I'll assume we are in agreement & I'll leave it alone.
It depends. I tend to avoid things that are overtly demonic simply because it's uncomfortable for me especially when they are the hero. So no Hellboy, no Ghost Rider. I can't suspend disbelief enough to follow the movie or book.Fernando Rocker said:
I also avoid things are designed solely to entice rather than entertain.
Overall though, I think most religious entertainment does not hold my interest as much as the Bible does.
There are a couple of dramas a friend had that were ppretty good that fleshed out some of the Bible stories. They were complete works of fiction that mixed in the Bible verses.
For example, one was about Noah while building the ark and how he was trying to convince other friends and family to get in the ark. It was pretty neat.
There was another one about Lot too.
Fernando Rocker said:
God made all good things. So I enjoy quite a bit of secular stuff. But I do regret filling my mind with some things. I wish to this day I never watched the movie Mothers Day when I was in High School. So there is something to be said about filling your mind with positive things. "Set your mind on the things above".
I no longer desire to see horror movies that depict evil for evil's sake, but I do enjoy fantasy like Game of Thrones even though the world view does not reflect my view.
We are in the world, we are just not to be OF the world. So I think it is unhealthy for Christians to wall themselves off into their own communities, it also can make it hard to spread the good news to others if you cannot enjoy a beer with a non believing friend.
Moderation is a very wise thing though.
Fernando Rocker
Banned
TaeOH said:
About this...
I have read some Bible passages that we should enjoy the wine but not get drunk... is this a metaphor or is something literal? Is it right to enjoy one or two beers without getting drunk?
Edit: Is this a good example?
Scientists discover truth, via the best method mankind has ever created to discover truth. Human beings make mistakes, but the scientific method has by far the best record on what is true about our world, and has produced undeniable results time and time again.JGS said:
If a theory (including creationism/God putting the basic building blocks on Earth to wait 4 billion years for us to show up via evolution) cannot be proven, it isn't science. Science doesn't say there was no creator, only that there's no evidence of a creator, and that a creator isn't needed to explain some of the biggest questions known to mankind.
If we are limited in our knowledge of how something works or how something happened, we accept that we do not know and endevour to find out, and any scientist (or indeed human being) worth his/her salt is completely fine not knowing things if the alternative is to believe key things without much evidence and the use of reason.
The scientific community hasn't as such 'refused to compromise' on the idea of a creator, it has simply refused to compromise on any idea that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and skepticism such as creation instead of evolution, flat Earth instead of nearly spherical Earth, astrology, and other non-science. A creator starting the universe or the process of life is currently unfalsifiable, and 'compromising' to shoehorn it into actual facts is like asking the scientific community to compromise on the idea of the flying spagetti monster - absurd, and misunderstanding of what science actually is.
DeathIsTheEnd
Member
I would think John 2 is a good example that Jesus was fine with drinking, at least in moderation.Fernando Rocker said:
Fernando Rocker said:
It is not wrong theologically, but I disagree with its conclusion that it is best for Christians to abstain entirely. Jesus drank wine. I think it being a stumbling block to those of weaker faith should be taken into consideration, but not a reason to completely abstain. I do know Church leaders that abstain based on not wanting to stumble any in there flock, but I also know some who I highly respect that do not abstain.
The application of moderation applies here quite well. This is the path I have chosen. I enjoy wine.
Parl said:
The funny thing about the scientific community to me is that they never seem to admit that they are/were wrong about anything.
They simply claim that they didn't know enough and the re-evaluate their theory and create a new one.
There have been numerous theories that have been changed over time as they discovered something new, but science never seems to claim they were wrong.
And due to the fact that science has been changed numerous times in the past what is keeping it from completely altering itself tomorrow?
Everything you "know" today could be old news tomorrow.
Science and history have slowly proven statements that were made in the Bible. Science is slowly starting to understand the complexities of all that God created.
I explained what was meant by this and it had nothing to do with scientists believing a different way anymore than i would expect believers to come over to a scientist's side regarding life's origins.Parl said:
It's simply about accepting that there are people out there that disagree with a concept contrary to their beliefs and dealing with it. Otherwise, it makes perfect sense why no one would want to listen to what they say. I can get insult by stupid people, don't need someone using fancy words to do it too especially since we tend to like the science so much.
It's literal. We have to exercise enough self-control to avoid drunkeness.Fernando Rocker said:
Drunkeness equates to no control and stats on crime and accidents prove this.
Chaplain
Member
DeathIsTheEnd said:
He was also at a marriage and later said this about drinking: "Mark my wordsI will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Fathers Kingdom."
I do not do drugs or drink. I have learned that I always have become a slave to those things. So I have been sober for a few years now.
Chaplain
Member
TaeOH said:
I like Jon Courson's Application Commentary on the New Testament. Here is a sample from the Gospel of John section:
John 2:1
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there.
In Jesus day, Jewish wedding celebrations lasted for one week, during which time relatives and friends would stay in the home of the bride and groomsort of a honeymoon/family reunion/bachelor party/wedding shower all rolled into one! During this seven-day celebration, the bride would be tucked away in a secluded part of the house and would not be seen by anyone but her groom. At the end of the week, she would emerge with great fanfare and celebration. This is fascinating as it relates to the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. You see, when the Rapture takes place, wethe bride of Christwill be carried away into heaven for seven years. Just as the Jewish bride was in seclusion with her groom for seven days, we will be tucked away in intimacy with our Lord Jesus Christ, away from the Tribulation that will be unleashed upon the earth.
John 2:2
And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Jesus presence at this particular wedding signals His stamp of approval upon all aspects of the institution of marriagecivil, legal, and religious. A wedding ceremony itself has an effect that is not often understood. Couples find a commitment made to each other in a public ceremony harder to break when the going gets tough. Perhaps that is why statistics show that those who live together before marriage have a substantially higher divorce rate than those who dont. I continue to be amazed at the large number of couples who say, What does a piece of paper matter? Why cant we just make a private commitment to God and to each other without all of the legal and religious procedures? Here in John 2, at the very outset of His public ministry, Jesus honored and elevated the institution of marriage.
John 2:3
And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Some have suggested Marys concern over the shortage of wine indicates she may have been a hostess at this wedding. Since the role of hostess at a Jewish wedding was usually filled by an aunt of the groom, this marriage celebration could very well have been that of Marys nephew, John. Mary turned to her Son for help. However, based on Jesus following response, it is my personal conviction that Mary was interested in more than simply the provision of wine. Might she have been seeking a restoration of her reputation? You see, as a young woman of perhaps fourteen or fifteen years of age, Mary had become miraculously pregnant by the Spirit of God. Yes, she was highly favored by God and blessed among women. But she also must have become the subject of speculation and slander, raised eyebrows and wagging tongues. Defending their own righteousness, the Pharisees smugly declared to Jesus, We be not born of fornication (John 8:41), their implication being that He had been.
For thirty years, Mary had lived with the knowledge that her character had been unjustly maligned. Is it not possible that at this point, she looked to her Son not only for wine but for vindication, thinking that if people could only see who He really was, perhaps they would at last see the truth about her as well?
John 2:4 (a)
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?
Gune is the Greek word translated woman. It is a term of respect but not of warmth. Thus, Jesus responds to Mary with a gentle rebuke. This sounds like a cold response on Jesus part to His longsuffering and gentle mother. Yet, as is seen in the remainder of the verse, it was as much for His mothers good as for His Fathers glory.
John 2:4 (b)
. . . mine hour is not yet come.
Mine hour is a term used in Johns Gospel seven times. To what hour is Jesus referring? In John 17:1, He prayed, Father the hour is come; glorify thy Son that thy Son also may glorify thee.
The hour is the time of Jesus crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.
The hour is the time of the irrefutable declaration of who He was, of the undeniable proof of His deity.
The hour is when His earthly ministry would be finished, His appointed mission completed, His Father fully glorified.
Woman Mary Mother said Jesus, I better than anyone know you have been waiting patiently. I know better than anyone how you have been hurt. I understand better than anyone your situation. But it is not time to rectify everything not quite yet.
What does this say to us? Oftentimes, I think we ask the Lord to do something that will get us off the hook or make us look a little better. We ask Him to do something that will smooth our road or lighten our load. Like Marys, our requests might sound very noble, very generous, very altruisticbut in reality, theyre self-centered. And in such instances, Jesus might whisper in our hearts, as He did to Mary, What have I to do with thee? This is not the hour. This is not the time. This is not the place. The problem will be solved. Your reputation will be salvaged. The provision will be made. The healing will be enjoyed. But not yet. Mine hour is not yet come.
Daniel was in a place of prominence and tremendous authority in Nebuchadnezzars kingdom. Then, when he was about sixty-five years old, Nabonidus came into power, and Daniel was removed from office. For twenty years, Daniel is not seen in the narrative given to us in the book that bears his name. But then the day dawned that Belshazzar called for him to interpret the mysterious writing on the wall (Daniel 5:13). When Darius the Mede seized control of the kingdom shortly thereafter, Daniel was placed in a position of prominence once again. Thus, for twenty years, Daniel was neither used in ministry nor given a position of responsibility. Yet Daniel, being a man of integrity, did what we must do: He remained ready.
Be like Daniel, gang. Dont say, Ive been walking with the Lord for five years, and nothings happening, so I think Ill just go to the movies, join the city softball league, or take up bird-watching. Folks, it is your job and my job to be readyto walk with the Lord, to spend time in the presence of the Lord, and to learn about the Lord so that when Belshazzar says, What does this mean? like Daniel, we can say, I can tell you because for twenty years Ive been in touch with God. For twenty years, Ive been in the place of prayer. For twenty years, Ive been close to the Lord.
Are you in prayer? Are you studying the Word? Are you loving the Lord? Are you ready? In a certain moment, your hour will come. Your time will arrive. A significant task, a life-changing opportunity will arise, and then it will be too late to prepare.
As Jesus descended the Mount of Transfiguration, He was met by a man who said, Master, I brought my epileptic son to Your disciples but they couldnt help him. Jesus then cast out the demon within the boy.
Why couldnt we do that? asked His disciples.
This kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting, answered Jesus (Matthew 17:21).
If it takes prayer and fasting to cast out a demon of that nature, how were we to know we would have that kind of encounter? the disciples must have wondered. But I believe Jesus was implying that, because they wouldnt know when opportunities to minister would come their way, they should have been living a life of continual prayer and fasting.
Why werent the disciples praying? I suggest it was because Jesus was on the mountain with Peter, James, and John. I suggest it was because the nine disciples down below were saying, Its always Peter, James, and John. They get to go up the mountain. Theyre always in the inner circle. But what about us? We never get to do anything. And because that was their mentality, they werent interceding. They werent praying. They werent ready.
So, too, there are those today who say, The Lord never uses me. The church never calls on me. But when the opportunity arises before them, they are either unable to meet it or are completely unaware of it. Saint, your responsibility in ministry is to be ready and then to rest. Study the Scripture in the place of intimacy and prayer. Worship the Lord. Get to know Him all the more. Then just rest, saying, Lord, when the hour comes in which You want to use me to do something for Your glory, Im ready.
Radical transformation will occur in your walk with the Lord when you realize Hes the Master and youre not. Hes the King, and youre the subject. Hes the Boss, and youre the servant. Your job is not to order Him or even to make suggestions to Him. Your place is to be ready for Him, and to rest in Him.
John 2:5
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
I find it theologically significant that in these, her last recorded words in Scripture, we see Mary directing the servants to her Son rather than acting as a mediator or liaison for Him. Those who believe they need to go through Mary to have their prayers heard or to gain influence in heaven have not studied carefully the relationship between Jesus and His mother. She didnt carry a whole lot of weight with Him. Oh, He loved her and cared for her even when He was on the Cross. But He was neither influenced by her nor did He take orders from her.
When it was told Him that His mother wanted to see Him, Jesus said, Who is my mother? Who are my brothers? They who hear and heed the Word of God are My mother and My brothers (see Luke 8:21). Later, in Acts 1, we see Mary with the other disciples praying in the Upper Room. Shes not leading the meeting. Shes not in a place of honor or prominence. Shes just one of them. There is one Mediator between God and mannot Mary, but the Man, Christ Jesus (see 1 Timothy 2:5).
John 2:68
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece [about 20 gallons]. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
For you who seek to serve Jesus to a greater degree, there are three important characteristics of the servants to note in this story.
The first is obedience. The servants didnt argue with Jesus, or ask questions of Him. They simply did what He asked them to do.
The second is exuberance. The servants filled huge twenty-gallon vessels to the brim, even though they had no idea what would happen next. There was nothing halfhearted about these guys!
The third is patience. Jesus didnt say, Okay, servants, huddle up. Heres the plan. See those big water pots over there? I want you guys to fill them with water. Then, as you begin to pour them out and serve them to the governor, a miracle will take place and the water will turn into wine. John will write about it in the second chapter of his Gospel, and you guys will be famous! No, Jesus told the servants what to do only one step at a time. First, they were to fill the water pots. After they had done that, He instructed them to draw the water out and take it to the governor. The miracle occurred only as they faithfully followed each step. Too often, I want to know what steps two through five are going to be before I follow step one. Let me know where this is all going, Lord. Let me know where I will be next month, next year, and three years from now. Lay it out clearly, Lord, and then Ill go for it. The Lord doesnt work that way. He unfolds His plan for us the same way He did for the servants at the wedding: one step at a time. And the point where we stop obeying is the point where that stops happening.
John 2:9 (a)
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew
So well known is this story, it can be recounted today by believer and non-believer alike. At the time, however, the only ones who knew what had transpired were the lowliest people in attendance at the wedding: the servants. No one else knew from whence the wine came. There were no oohs and aahs as the wine was poured. There were no glances of recognition toward the thirty-year-old Carpenter. There was not a sudden rush of people to Jesus side. There were only some dropped jaws and wide eyes on the faces of some tired servants. This first public miracle of Jesus was similar to His first appearance on earth, for then only a few shepherds were aware of what had happened. There would be times later in His ministry when He would demonstrate His deity with bold and awesome authority. But on this particular day in Cana, He chose to reveal Himself only to some humble, obedient servants.
Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (447). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
Somebody mentioned this book to me and I figured I would share it with everyone here as well.
It is a very inspiring story about a boy who had a near death experience at a very young age. He is then able to describe thins such as Heaven or information about deceased relatives that he never knew.
It is interesting to read what he saw in Heaven. Amazing would actually be a better word now that I think of it.
http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158
It is a very inspiring story about a boy who had a near death experience at a very young age. He is then able to describe thins such as Heaven or information about deceased relatives that he never knew.
It is interesting to read what he saw in Heaven. Amazing would actually be a better word now that I think of it.
http://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Real-Little-Astounding-Story/dp/0849946158
DeathIsTheEnd
Member
I thought that was at the Last Supper [Matthew 26:29] and is basically seen as Jesus saying this is has last chance to do this before his crucifixion.Game Analyst said:
If you felt a slave to those things then abstaining from them is obviously a sensible and responsible thing to do.Game Analyst said:
Chaplain
Member
DeathIsTheEnd said:
I could see that point of view. But you will not find any of the Apostles drinking or telling others to drink just for pleasure. The only time drinking is mentioned in the Epistles. Paul tells Timothy to drink to help with his sickness.
My own opinion is for each person to ask God if that is what he wants for them. God will tell them if they ask.
DeathIsTheEnd said:
I agree. I really hated when I would get high and I would become super self centered (which is the definition of sin). I enjoy being sober now. I do not need any substance to help me cope with life except Jesus.
Chaplain
Member
Dunk#7 said:
My wife says this book is also really good:
Dude Abides
Banned
JGS said:
Science deals with it just fine. It's the more stupid among the religious that have the problem.
No it's not. It's not the "stupid among the religious" that control who is worthy of science.Dude Abides said:
Again, if someone is portrayed as hating science on the basis of hating a scientist's version of how life started then the problem is squarely with the person putting that requirement on it.
That wasn't my intent.TaeOH said:
Dude Abides
Banned
JGS said:
The stupid among the religious lack the subtlety of intellect and flexibility of mind to reconcile scientific findings that contradict their religious stories, including but not limited to the best-supported theories of the origins of life and humans, so they get angry at science. Scientists, by and large (though there are of course a few exceptions), continue on their merry way with little concern that silly people reject their findings.
They only time scientists really care is when this group of foolish folks pretend their religious stories are actually scientific accounts and seek to have them accepted as such.
Herpes Reasons
Banned
i like how this thread reverts back to science vs religion.Dude Abides said:
contrary to what the OP says. there are already a few threads on that topic.
but who am i to complain.
my body is ready.Uchip said:
Honestly, what does that say about the flexible intelligent minds of ones who have to retaliate against the stupid?Dude Abides said:
No one (I guess I should say very few since there are indeed exceptions) gets angry at "science" (lol) just because they get upset about being told how life got here when there's no basis for it. There are no findings for what the bulk of religious people object to. That leaves a couple of contingency groups making wrong assumptions about science and religion.
That is indeed sad, but it's avoidable by accepting the fact that the majority of religious folk are fine and dandy with science and welcome instruction from the best in the field as long as they don't start preaching to them about life origins. It's a simple solution really.
They shouldn't care then until it's hits the lab.Dude Abides said:
The only ones expected to accept it as a replacement to what a scientist thinks is the devout. No one expects nor will ever expect that creation will replace a scientist's view of how life got here. That battle was lost ages ago.
Quite frankly, I think it would be good for Christians to express their views on it since it's not science vs. religion to begin with and this could helps ones to see that...unless I'm wrong, Christians hate it, & I'm just an oddball.viakado said:
It would be nice to see how many Christians actually hate science. It's certainly better to discuss it here than somewhere else outside the religion thread.
EDIT: I will say I'm done debating it in both threads, but still think it would be interesting to learn other's views.
If the feeling hits me to debate it altogether I'll move it to the Religion thread.
Dude Abides
Banned
viakado said:
U mad? Maybe there's a faith healer who can address that problem for you.
JGS said:
It says they don't suffer fools.
There's a basis for it. It's not as solidly-supported as other scientific theories, of course, it's false to say there's no basis for it.
They also reject the notion that humans evolved from primates, which nobody can really dispute.
And one that most scientists take. As for "preaching to them about life origins" there's no reason to avoid presenting the best scientific theories currently available simply because some are more comfortable with ignorance.
Or hits the school. Which it does.
I, personally, am fine with science. I love learning new things about the world around me.
Without science and the pursuit of knowledge we would not be as advanced as we are today in society.
It is only where science tries to downplay, refute, or openly bash Christianity that I have a problem. It isn't that I am angry about it either. I just have a different view and feel the need to express that view.
Science sticks its hands into Christianity and religion and tries to refute unproven ideas with unproven science.
Other than where they directly conflict I love science and the pursuit of new information.
As an engineer here are one of my favorite quotes:
Without science and the pursuit of knowledge we would not be as advanced as we are today in society.
It is only where science tries to downplay, refute, or openly bash Christianity that I have a problem. It isn't that I am angry about it either. I just have a different view and feel the need to express that view.
Science sticks its hands into Christianity and religion and tries to refute unproven ideas with unproven science.
Other than where they directly conflict I love science and the pursuit of new information.
As an engineer here are one of my favorite quotes:
JGS said:
You're going to hell.
Replace? I don't think anyone said that. Unless you count the nutjobs who don't want their kids to go to school because they teach evil science there and go for homeschool. With the bible as the main textbook, of course.
Now you can't deny that in the US alone, there's quite a few example of ID and the like trying to get into the curriculum, can you?
Except the thousands of times per day it does happen. What other collaborate enterprise seeks to prove itself wrong time and time again, with ruthless scrutiny, discards theories the moment they're shown to have insufficient evidence, or simply proven wrong? It is an enterprise with largely one goal: Truth. Fact. And wow, has it worked? To illustrate just how much more effective and true to reality this method of discovering reality is, one only has to look around them. Humans will be humans, and you'll always find exceptions to the rule, but I'm very glad humans started to use their brains effectively, and begin to discard the superstition and delusions of the pastDunk#7 said:
Science isn't a person.
Newton's laws were technically wrong, but because they were discovered via science, they were very nearly right, and can still be used for real world applications today.
I've heard many great scientists explain why we have been wrong in the past. I've seen scientists explain how they've had theories, had good evidence for them, researched for years and years, then somebody comes along and shows why it's wrong, and their response is to shake their hand and thank them. Human beings aren't always right, but via science, we're the most correct we've ever been, and continue to be less wrong each and everyday. But let's not be naive and assume that we're going to discover the Earth isn't really a near sphere, or that gravity doesn't really exist (or something that creates the same effect). The same method that produced by far the most progress in this world (just compare differences in the last few centuries), will surely produce by far the best explanations for grand questions about the cosmos, and how we came to be. Make no mistake, there's theories science hasn't proven, and that's why we don't treat them as fact. The integrity comes from admitting we just don't quite know yet.
Maybe we will discover Earth isn't really a near sphere, that getting to the moon was really just a wildly improbable fluke, that what's making us live longer isn't really modern medicine, but aliens playing tricks with us, making us think we're onto a winner with this science thing, but to consider these anything but absurdely unlikely is silly.
There are unproven theories, with some scientists finding them unlikely, some likely, that will be old news as they will be shown to be wrong. That's what's so great about science and the scientific community. But by and large, actual peer reviewed science is here to stay, and will be expanded upon in the future. Modern technology wasn't a fluke.
This is a lovely idea, but I would advise against the use of the Bible as a revision text for any science or history course.
That's a pretty idea, but the best of human enquiry has nearly never suggested the need for a God to explain the beauty of reality. My personal view is that the idea of God diminishes the beauty of reality, and I'm rather glad that the evidence for such a being, especially the North Korea style one in the Bible, is very thin.
Parl said:
Seriously. I lost count of how many times I've heard "well we were dead wrong" in conferences, and seen errata and retractions in peer-reviewed journals.
Now if you're expecting someone to come up and say "well Darwin was completely wrong" (Behe and friends don't count) or "Einstein was completely wrong", you'll surely gonna wait a loooooooooooong time.
I have never heard if any attempt to replace school curriculum with the Bible even in religious schools.Raist said:
Any attempt at introducing ID has failed and wasn't a threat to begin with. Most of the time they simply had a statement about ID.
The threats from higher education and the threats from within the community squashes any attempt even in the most backwater redneck places.
There was never a danger to scientific thought and never will be. Homeschooling and religion based private schools should not be a concern at all but even they can't change what is backed and claimed scientifically - except for things that have no basis of fact.
Public schools and universities, however, can continue to teach whatever they want that may be established thought... But is still garbage science.
JGS said:
That's pure BS. It IS a threat, but thankfully it's being controlled. But it had to go to court multiple times, and in some US states boards of education have a majority of creationist members. There's also videos and documentaries around showing teachers introduce the creation idea in science classes, despite the fact that it should be banned. So stop saying it's a complete non-issue.
And that's completely ignoring other countries, especially some islamic ones, where students are taught that salt water and fresh water don't mix because the Qur'an says it's unpure and that kind of BS.
Chaplain
Member
I think God's response to Job gives us great insight that mankind doesn't really understand many of the things they think they understand:
Then the Lord answered Job:
Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
Who determined its dimensions
and stretched out the surveying line?
What supports its foundations,
and who laid its cornerstone
as the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
Who kept the sea inside its boundaries
as it burst from the womb,
and as I clothed it with clouds
and wrapped it in thick darkness?
For I locked it behind barred gates,
limiting its shores.
I said, This far and no farther will you come.
Here your proud waves must stop!
Have you ever commanded the morning to appear
and caused the dawn to rise in the east?
Have you made daylight spread to the ends of the earth,
to bring an end to the nights wickedness?
As the light approaches,
the earth takes shape like clay pressed beneath a seal;
it is robed in brilliant colors.
The light disturbs the wicked
and stops the arm that is raised in violence.
Have you explored the springs from which the seas come?
Have you explored their depths?
Do you know where the gates of death are located?
Have you seen the gates of utter gloom?
Do you realize the extent of the earth?
Tell me about it if you know!
Can you direct the movement of the stars
binding the cluster of the Pleiades
or loosening the cords of Orion?
Where does light come from,
and where does darkness go?
Can you take each to its home?
Do you know how to get there?
But of course you know all this!
For you were born before it was all created,
and you are so very experienced!
Then the Lord answered Job:
Who is this that questions my wisdom
with such ignorant words?
Brace yourself like a man,
because I have some questions for you,
and you must answer them.
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell me, if you know so much.
Who determined its dimensions
and stretched out the surveying line?
What supports its foundations,
and who laid its cornerstone
as the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
Who kept the sea inside its boundaries
as it burst from the womb,
and as I clothed it with clouds
and wrapped it in thick darkness?
For I locked it behind barred gates,
limiting its shores.
I said, This far and no farther will you come.
Here your proud waves must stop!
Have you ever commanded the morning to appear
and caused the dawn to rise in the east?
Have you made daylight spread to the ends of the earth,
to bring an end to the nights wickedness?
As the light approaches,
the earth takes shape like clay pressed beneath a seal;
it is robed in brilliant colors.
The light disturbs the wicked
and stops the arm that is raised in violence.
Have you explored the springs from which the seas come?
Have you explored their depths?
Do you know where the gates of death are located?
Have you seen the gates of utter gloom?
Do you realize the extent of the earth?
Tell me about it if you know!
Can you direct the movement of the stars
binding the cluster of the Pleiades
or loosening the cords of Orion?
Where does light come from,
and where does darkness go?
Can you take each to its home?
Do you know how to get there?
But of course you know all this!
For you were born before it was all created,
and you are so very experienced!
No it's not. It remains a non-issue.Raist said:
But you are correct that it's being controlled. For example, if there are videos that show teachers introducing it although being against the law, what happens to the teachers? As is often the case, the problems in the education system have more to do disciplining rather than the education system itself which is firmly on the side of evolutionist and always will be.
Also, them introducing does not mean this is an actual introduction to it. I know my kids were "indoctrinated" way earlier than kindergarten to accept there was a creator in the mix. For the ones that this was a new concept for, their parents no doubt quickly got it out of their system and people continued on with their various belief systems.
Finally, to have a video does not indicate the how widespread it is. based on the statement it could be as common as in every school or it could be as infrequent as gun shootings in elementary school. So I did a little research and found this out here:
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4895114&page=1
So these numbers are pretty surprising to me, but rereading it and particulay the bold:
- Less than half responded to begin with.
- Of the YEC (16% of the study from what I gather) only 2% didn't teach evolution at all (19 of them). That's pretty shocking and that definitely an issue, but one of discipline.
- The primary motivator for teaching creation is one of educational ability and not necessarily conviction considering that the bulk of YEC teachers (about 88%) still taught evolution against their beliefs.
There was also not an number given to how much time was spent on creation which I wish they had. After all, they knew how many fewer hours were spent on evolution. this could have included a very benign statement from my biology teacher in high school where she prefaced the teaching with the statement that some of the things were against her religious beliefs. She said this because she was fine with us sayin "It is believed..." in our test answers because some other teachers didn't accept that.
I was pseudo-agnostic at the time so it didn't matter to me one way or the other. Anyway, it would be nice to know since the implcation is that the 35% less hours is spent on creation which I would be surprised by since that would mean spending up to 3 hours on creation studies which I don't think is possible without being caught and fired. They could have spent more time on other parts of the curriculum which would be better anyway.
OKjdogmoney said:
Game Analyst said:
He is taking quite a leap with Mary and the wine. Interesting though, and Mary and Jesus's exchange there is unclear so some speculation is warranted. I just like the reasoning that running out of wine would have been a horrible start in life for the bride and groom. So Mary is just trying to intercede for them since she knows her son could provide. I like it because it makes sense and honors Mary.
Thanks. I was wondering though if you knew of a good commentary free on the web?
Game Analyst, or anyone else, can someone please describe why the story of Job is inspirational to Christians? It seems to me to be a story where God comes off really badly. God and Satan are just chillin' out, as they do, and God decides that for shits and giggles he'll make a bet with Satan that he can kill Job's family, take his lively hood, his health, etc, and Job will still be #1 God-fan at the end of it all. God loses this bet, gets pissed, then shouts down Job for losing his faith like a he's a sports fan yelling at the TV when his team loses.
How does this glorify God? This seems like one story that would have been a good candidate for the Romans to rip out.
How does this glorify God? This seems like one story that would have been a good candidate for the Romans to rip out.
The Romans couldn't rip it out (Just like they couldn't with anything else). It was established canon about as old as the first books of the OT.Slo said:
God didn't lose the bet btw. Job maintained his integrity throughout the ordeal which is why it's "inspirational" to Christians & why Job was blessed afterward.
His mistake had little to do with the challenge. In the heat of the arguments with his colleagues, he basically said he was perfect and God wouldn't be able to find fault with him... which is wrong since he's an imperfect man like everyone else. He basically was declaring himself righteous which he doesn't have the authority to do.
JGS said:
I disagree with whether he lost, but that's really besides my point. Satan goaded God into a wager where God decided to torture the fuck out of Job for several years, and then Job gets an ass chewing from God for his troubles.
That doesn't seem very flattering, wouldn't you agree?
Edit: Thanks for the response, btw.
No problem.Slo said:
I'm curious, how do you interpret that he lost? That's actually a new spin. I've heard that God caused the afflictions (He didn't) but never heard that God lost the bet.
To your main point, Scripture is not about flattery. It's full of times where God's followers are disciplined for wrong thinking. However, it also provides instruction for how to handle adversities. Job is an important book because it lays out quite clearly how the issue of God's sovreignty affects people who aren't perfect.
Satan made 2 challenges that are additions to the original challenge in the Garden of Eden
1. God has no right to tell you what to do and is in fact holding out on you (Genesis one)
2. The only reason why people worship God is because of what he does for them (Job)
3. Further, when all else fails, they'll give up worship to protect their life (Job)
Those last two are decided already as incorrect due to Job's stand and many others after him. The first one is still being played out. Ones can and do dismiss, get mad, disbelieve God all day long and it's only because God allows it and wants to see if anything positive results (It doesn't).
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