Support NeoGAF

[ServBotPhil]

Because we follow Christ's direction. This doesn't diminish God's status as Universal Sovereign and Almighty since following Christ requires acknowledgment of that.

It's similar to being called Americans because of citizenship. That's why it didn't mean much that the Jews were called Jews but still worshiped God without his name in it.

Also, Jesus last name wasn't Christ. It was his title. So we are followers of the Anointed One. Who anointed him? God/Jehovah/Yahweh.

Yes, Jesus the Christ/Messiah/Savior. What anointing are you referring to? His feet were anointed, but usually the head is anointed (like in OT times).

 

[Aristion]

Don't be afraid to voice your confusion. The idea of the trinity is one that has been intrinsic to the biblical scholarship question for years - specifically because one of the primary scriptures typically quoted to suggest the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same was never in the original, earliest best manuscripts. That's 1st John 5:7... the so-called "Comma Johanneum". The Bible goes through dramatic pains to almost always explicitly avoid stating that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one and the same - it was almost certainly not the standard belief of the earliest Christians who write these books. It was added entirely by later Christians who, when translating, modified the scripture to fit their own belief systems.

Don't allow people to try to paint you as anti-Christian for failing to believe in the Trinity. It's one of the largest on-going debates in Biblical scholarship and it almost certainly was not supported by early Christians.

The Comma Johanneum is not a textual variant, but rather an insertion made in about the 16th century by Erasmus based upon pressure from some who felt that a certain emandation from a Latin manuscript at the time should've been incorporated into his Novum Testamentum. This is why King James bibles still have the Comma, and yet the NASB and ESV omit it. For over a millenia, Christians had believed and taught the Trinity from the Bible without any knowledge of the Comma.

Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna, disciples of the Apostle John, taught that Jesus was God in his epistles.

Secondly, the Trinity doesn't teach that Jesus and the Father are the same. They're distinct persons, but they share the same divine nature.

Does this verse read as if Jesus was never seen to be God?

John 5:18 "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

 

[Raist]

The Comma Johanneum is not a textual variant, but rather an insertion made in about the 16th century by Erasmus based upon pressure from some who felt that a certain emandation from a Latin manuscript at the time should've been incorporated into his Novum Testamentum. This is why King James bibles still have the Comma, and yet the NASB and ESV omit it. For over a millenia, Christians had believed and taught the Trinity from the Bible without any knowledge of the Comma.

Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna, disciples of the Apostle John, taught that Jesus was God in his epistles.

Secondly, the Trinity doesn't teach that Jesus and the Father are the same. They're distinct persons, but they share the same divine nature.

Does this verse read as if Jesus was never seen to be God?

John 5:18 "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

Since when does "equal with" necessarily mean identity?

 

[Aristion]

Since when does "equal with" necessarily mean identity?

I never claimed it did, nor did any Trinitarian. Jesus is not the Father. He's equal in nature, and the Bible teaches that there's one God. Thus they share the same nature, but are distinct persons.

 

[JGS]

Yes, Jesus the Christ/Messiah/Savior. What anointing are you referring to? His feet were anointed, but usually the head is anointed (like in OT times).

Christ basically means Annointed One. It's a title to describe what Jesus is. He was annointed by God to lead the church and also God's kingdom.

Like you said this is similar to the way kings were annointed in OT.

Does this verse read as if Jesus was never seen to be God?

John 5:18 "This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God."

This is true but it's also important to know who it was that was accusing him. The unbelieving Jews were looking for anything to stick (Finally realizing that sedition against the Roman Empire would be best). They also accused him of being a Satan worshipper but that was far from the truth or the logical assumption.

Them accusing him of saying he is equal to God his father is not the same thing as Jesus saying that. It's very possible the ones making the accusation didn't believe it either.

As an aside, the fact that the Jews thought it was blasphemous for him to claim equality with God would seem to indicate again that the Jews had no idea there was a trinity of their God even though they were familiar with trinitarian teachings. This happened during their captivity in Babylnon plus several other religions believed a trinity as well. The Jews could actually have been exposed to the trinity (Or grouping divinity in 3's) teaching as early as their time spent in Egypt. Later on in John 5, Jesus indicated that they should have known he was coming because of Moses telling them. However, Moses never told them to think of him as an equal.

The great thing about John 5 is that he schools them while still admitting he's God's son.

I never claimed it did, nor did any Trinitarian. Jesus is not the Father. He's equal in nature, and the Bible teaches that there's one God. Thus they share the same nature, but are distinct persons.

This is sorta true imo. The problem is equalizing Jesus and God which Jesus never states which would mean he's lying even if his believers honestly think otherwise. Nothing comes close to personifying God the way Jesus does. However, he is still the lesser of the two. He has to be just by being defined as the son.

 

[Chaplain]

God's heart, God's plan to save mankind, and why people reject Jesus.

 

[Raist]

and why people reject Jesus.

So what about people who're good and kind etc but aren't christians? I mean, they do exist, I've met plenty.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

So what about people who're good and kind etc but aren't christians? I mean, they do exist, I've met plenty.

It's hard to think that good people are not to Heaven. Not because they're not generous, kind, loving, thoughtful, committed to their family and spouse, because they are. Or because they do a lot of works.

Some people believe being good or do a lot of works will get you to heaven, but the Bible says categorically this is not the case.

They are on the wrong road, going the wrong way. God says those who do not believe in Jesus are condemned.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

But the real problem is the sin. Every person on this planet is a sinner. Everyone. No matter how good you are, you are, we are sinners. And Jesus is the only way to be forgiven for our sins.

 

[Chaplain]

So what about people who're good and kind etc but aren't christians? I mean, they do exist, I've met plenty.

Good question. The Bible says only God is good. The Bible says the following about mankind:

"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds,they are nothing but filthy rags." - Isaiah 64:6

"For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard." - Romans 3:23

Jesus said:

“For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.” - Mark 7:21-23

People are good when we compare them to other people. Jesus is God's standard for good and perfect. When we compare ourselves or any other person to Jesus, we can easily see we don't measure up to God's standard of good and we have all failed in being good.

 

[Raist]

It's hard to think that good people are not to Heaven. Not because they're not generous, kind, loving, thoughtful, committed to their family and spouse, because they are. Or because they do a lot of works.

Some people believe being good or do a lot of works will get you to heaven, but the Bible says categorically this is not the case.

They are on the wrong road, going the wrong way. God says those who do not believe in Jesus are condemned.

That's not the point I'm discussing.
This "article" says that some people don't accept Jesus because they are evil. So how come you can find perfectly good people (even better than some believers) who do not believe in god?

 

[Chaplain]

That's not the point I'm discussing.
This "article" says that some people don't accept Jesus because they are evil. So how come you can find perfectly good people (even better than some believers) who do not believe in god?

Look at my previous post.

 

[Triple Oceans]

It's hard to think that good people are not to Heaven. Not because they're not generous, kind, loving, thoughtful, committed to their family and spouse, because they are. Or because they do a lot of works.

Some people believe being good or do a lot of works will get you to heaven, but the Bible says categorically this is not the case.

They are on the wrong road, going the wrong way. God says those who do not believe in Jesus are condemned.

Fernando I agree with this. And to add: When you believe in something your actions tend to follow. So at the end of the day if you believe in God and following his word (the Bible) your lifestyle is going to match up with it. So for those who are nice/good people, who don't believe in God or the Bible and aren't following it, biblicly speaking how are they saved then?

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Christians all need to understand how to explain why sincere beliefs and good works are not enough to satisfy God’s moral demands on us. My friend thinks that if a person is a “good” person, then he should go to Heaven. But God is not the Tooth Fairy. God is more concerned that we understand the truth about his existence and character – that is the whole point of sending Jesus to die as an atonement for our rebellion. The problem isn’t that we lie, cheat and steal. The problem is that we want to get our own happiness apart from God, without wanting to know him as he is, and without having to care about his goals and his character in the relationship.

Here’s what God wants us to know about ourselves:

We have to realize that what we really are is rebels against God.

• Rebels don’t want God to be there.
• Rebels don’t want God to have any goals or character different from their goals and character.
• Rebels don’t want God to place any demands on them.
• Rebels don’t want to have any awareness that God is real or that he is morally perfect.
• Rebels want to be liked as they are now – they don’t want to change as part of a relationship.
• Rebels want to conceive of their own way to happiness, and to use other people and God for their own ends.
• Rebels don’t want there to be a mind-independent objective reality, they want to invent their own reality that allows them to be praised and celebrated for doing whatever makes them happy at every point along their lives.
• Rebels would rather die that put their pursuit of happiness second.
• Rebels have no interest in rules, judgments, accountability or punishments.

Here’s what God wants for us to be saved from our rebelling:

• We have to know his real character so we have a genuine relationship with him.
• The best way to know his character is by taking time to study what Jesus did in history.
• What the incarnation tells us is that God is willing to humiliate himself by taking on a human nature.
• What the crucifixion tells us is that God is willing to die in our place even though we’re rebelling against him (Jesus is Savior).
• Part of being saved is to trust God by allowing his character to transform our desires and actions (Jesus is Lord).
• As we grow in letting the character of Jesus inform our actions, we build a set of experiences that are like Jesus’ experiences – i.e. – we obey God rather than men, and we suffer for our obedience – just like Jesus.

Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for our rebellion against God, and the most important thing we have to do in this life is to come to terms with who he was and what he did. Your own good deeds don’t justify you before God, because he isn’t interested in what you can do unless you are first interested in knowing who he is. A Christian’s good deeds are the result of identifying Jesus as Savior and Lord, and then following him by making decisions in your own life that respect his character. God doesn’t need you to solve all the world’s problems – he could do that himself. It’s not what you do, it’s who you know and trust that counts. The good deeds are just your way of trying to be like him and trying to feel the same thing he felt when he gave his life for you. You have a friend and you want to be like him in order to know what he feels so you have sympathy with him.

The main point is that knowing Jesus as the revelation of God’s character, and then following Jesus, is more important than doing “good things”.

The first commandment, according to Jesus, is found in Matthew.

The Greatest Commandment
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The second commandment which comes after that one has to do with loving your neighbor. But the second one is not the greatest commandment. You can’t love God unless you know God. That it, unless you make knowing about his existence and character a priority in your life to the point where you find out the truth about his existence and character. And not as your own opinion, or as the opinion of the people around you, or as the faith-tradition you were raised in. No. You have to value God enough to respond to his overtures to you. You have to know him in truth, not as a quick checkbox that you check off for an hour on Sundays to make your life “easier” because you are happier and the people around you like you. You have to know him before you can act to love him – who he is and what he’s done.

The way that Protestants like me draw the line is as follows – justification (how your rebellion is canceled) is God’s job. He draws you to him while you are still in rebellion, but you have a choice to resist him or not. If you resist his unilateral action to save you, then you are responsible for rejecting him. Sanctification (about doing good works) is not about canceling your rebellion, it’s about the later step of re-prioritizing your life, so that you make decisions that reflect the character of Jesus, so that you become more like him. Even your desires change as the relationship progresses. It is something you work at – you study and experience, study and experience. The whole point of studying apologetics is to build yourself into a love machine that fears nothing and holds up under fire, because you know the truth and the truth makes you free to do what you ought to do regardless of the consequences (e.g. – failure to be recognized and requited by someone you loved well).

The most important relationship is not the horizontal relationship with your neighbor, it’s the vertical relationship with God himself. And when you know God as he really revealed himself in history, then your desires – and consequently your actions – will change naturally. When you know God as a person, you freely make all kinds of sacrifices for him. You put yourself second because you want to work on the relationship. You start to believe that your own happiness isn’t as as important as working on the relationship. It’s like building a house. You don’t notice the sacrifices.

Sometimes, I think that the whole point of Christianity and that vertical relationship is so that we know God better. We sympathize more with him than we do with ourselves, because of how unfairly people treat him, how good and loving he is, and how right his goals are. It’s not that he needs help, because he’s God – he’s sovereign. But the relationship gets to the point where it becomes reasonable for you to put yourself second with God, and to let his goals become your goals – you want the relationship with a loving God more than you want to be happy. You get tired of ignoring the person who loves you most – you start to wonder what it would be like to actually respond to him. For Christians, the demands of this other being eventually seem to be not so terrible after all – and we try to put aside our own desires and to give him gifts and respect instead of worrying so much about being happy all the time.

It’s not irrational to be kind to the person who loves you the most – who sacrificed the most for you.

 

[Chaplain]

. So for those who are nice/good people, who don't believe in God or the Bible and aren't following it, biblically speaking how are they saved then?

Jesus gives the answer:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

 

[Raist]

snip

So in other words, it doesn't matter how good one is, if one deity doesn't get its self-centered obsession for being acknowledged as real, that person is going to suffer for all eternity. Makes sense. Might as well sin all the way and accept it at the last minute, since according to that kind of logic it's all you need.

 

[Triple Oceans]

Christians all need to understand how to explain why sincere beliefs and good works are not enough to satisfy God’s moral demands on us. My friend thinks that if a person is a “good” person, then he should go to Heaven. But God is not the Tooth Fairy. God is more concerned that we understand the truth about his existence and character – that is the whole point of sending Jesus to die as an atonement for our sins. The problem isn’t that we lie, cheat and steal. The problem is that we want to get our own happiness apart from God, without wanting to know him as he is, and without having to care about his goals and his character in the relationship.

Here’s what God wants us to know about ourselves:

* we have to realize that what we really are all sinners who by Jesus death on the cross we have the opportunity to be in a saved relationship with him
* rebels don’t want God to be there
* rebels don’t want God to have any goals or character different from their goals and character
* rebels don’t want God to place any demands on them
* rebels don’t want to have any awareness that God is real or that he is morally perfect
* rebels want to be liked as they are now – they don’t want to change as part of a relationship
* rebels want to conceive of their own way to happiness, and to use other people and God for their own ends
* rebels don’t want there to be a mind-independent objective reality, they want to invent their own reality that allows them to be praised and celebrated for doing whatever makes them happy at every point along their lives
* rebels would rather die that put their pursuit of happiness second
* rebels have no interest in rules, judgments, accountability or punishments

Here’s what God wants for us to be saved from our rebelling:

* we have to know his real character so we have a genuine relationship with him
* the best way to know his character is by taking time to study what Jesus did in history
* what the incarnation tells us is that God is willing to humiliate himself by taking on a human nature
* what the crucifixion tells us is that God is willing to die in our place even though we’re rebelling against him (Jesus is Savior)
* part of being saved is to trust God by allowing his character to transform our desires and actions (Jesus is Lord)
* as we grow in letting the character of Jesus inform our actions, we build a set of experiences that are like Jesus’ experiences – i.e. – we obey God rather than men, and we suffer for our obedience – just like Jesus

Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for our rebellion against God, and the most important thing we have to do in this life is to come to terms with who he was and what he did. Your own good deeds don’t justify you before God, because he isn’t interested in what you can do unless you are first interested in knowing who he is. A Christian’s good deeds are the result of identifying Jesus as Savior and Lord, and then following him by making decisions in your own life that respect his character. God doesn’t need you to solve all the world’s problems – he could do that himself. It’s not what you do, it’s who you know and trust that counts. The good deeds are just your way of trying to be like him and trying to feel the same thing he felt when he gave his life for you. You have a friend and you want to be like him in order to know what he feels so you have sympathy with him.

The main point is that knowing Jesus as the revelation of God’s character, and then following Jesus, is more important than doing “good things”.

The first commandment, according to Jesus, is found in Matthew.



The second commandment which comes after that one has to do with loving your neighbor. But the second one is not the greatest commandment. You can’t love God unless you know God. That it, unless you make knowing about his existence and character a priority in your life to the point where you find out the truth about his existence and character. And not as your own opinion, or as the opinion of the people around you, or as the faith-tradition you were raised in. No. You have to value God enough to respond to his overtures to you. You have to know him in truth, not as a quick checkbox that you check off for an hour on Sundays to make your life “easier” because you are happier and the people around you like you. You have to know him before you can act to love him – who he is and what he’s done.

The way that Protestants like me draw the line is as follows – justification (how your rebellion is canceled) is God’s job. He draws you to him while you are still in rebellion, but you have a choice to resist him or not. If you resist his unilateral action to save you, then you are responsible for rejecting him. Sanctification (about doing good works) is not about canceling your rebellion, it’s about the later step of re-prioritizing your life, so that you make decisions that reflect the character of Jesus, so that you become more like him. Even your desires change as the relationship progresses. It is something you work at – you study and experience, study and experience. The whole point of studying apologetics is to build yourself into a love machine that fears nothing and holds up under fire, because you know the truth and the truth makes you free to do what you ought to do regardless of the consequences (e.g. – failure to be recognized and requited by someone you loved well).

The most important relationship is not the horizontal relationship with your neighbor, it’s the vertical relationship with God himself. And when you know God as he really revealed himself in history, then your desires – and consequently your actions – will change naturally. When you know God as a person, you freely make all kinds of sacrifices for him. You put yourself second because you want to work on the relationship. You start to believe that your own happiness isn’t as as important as working on the relationship. It’s like building a house. You don’t notice the sacrifices.

Sometimes, I think that the whole point of Christianity and that vertical relationship is so that we know God better. We sympathize more with him than we do with ourselves, because of how unfairly people treat him, how good and loving he is, and how right his goals are. It’s not that he needs help, because he’s God – he’s sovereign. But the relationship gets to the point where it becomes reasonable for you to put yourself second with God, and to let his goals become your goals – you want the relationship with a loving God more than you want to be happy. You get tired of ignoring the person who loves you most – you start to wonder what it would be like to actually respond to him. For Christians, the demands of this other being eventually seem to be not so terrible after all – and we try to put aside our own desires and to give him gifts and respect instead of worrying so much about being happy all the time.

It’s not irrational to be kind to the person who loves you the most – who sacrificed the most for you.

Fixed.

 

[Triple Oceans]

So in other words, it doesn't matter how good one is, if one deity doesn't get its self-centered obsession for being acknowledged as real, that person is going to suffer for all eternity. Makes sense. Might as well sin all the way and accept it at the last minute, since according to that kind of logic it's all you need.

1. If you're willing to take that risk, then so be it. Remember, tomorrow is never guaranteed.

2. That's a lot easier said than done when you only desire to live for yourself.

Jesus gives the answer:

“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

lol, thanks for the answer. I was aware of this but my question earlier was rhetorical. My point was that being a good person isn't enough to get you into heaven. But you have to believe AND live your life according to the Bible.

 

[Chaplain]

lol, thanks for the answer. I was aware of this but my question earlier was rhetorical. My point was that being a good person isn't enough to get you into heaven. But you have to believe AND live your life according to the Bible.

The thing is, no human being is good. Only Jesus (God) is good. So, understanding the biblical definition for the meaning of good, should change how we view ourselves and other people.

Remember that God sees our thoughts as well as all our actions that come from our thoughts. Just because someone seems good on the outside, by our own definition, doesn't mean they are not constantly sinning on the inside.

EDITED

God says all mankind has sinned against Him and is separated from Him. The reason people do not want to come to God is because they want to continue to be selfish and not admit that they have sinned against God. All rebellion is based centered in selfishness.

 

[Raist]

The thing is, no human being is good. Only Jesus (God) is good. So, understanding the biblical definition for the meaning of good, should change how we view ourselves and other people.

Remember that God sees our thought life as well as all our actions. Just because someone seems good on the outside, doesn't mean they are not constantly sinning on the inside.

Overall you have a pretty sad and borderline disgusting view on people. It's kinda scary.

 

[Chaplain]

Overall you have a pretty sad and borderline disgusting view on people. It's kinda scary.

Everything I shared comes directly from God's Word.

"We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds,they are nothing but filthy rags."

"For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard."

“For from within, out of a person’s heart, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, lustful desires, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All these vile things come from within; they are what defile you.”

Look at my previous posts. I gave scriptures for everything I said.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Overall you have a pretty sad and borderline disgusting view on people. It's kinda scary.

God is the only who can see people's hearts... we are all sinners. No matter how good you see some people, you don't truly don't know his heart.

 

[Triple Oceans]

The thing is, no human being is good. Only Jesus (God) is good. So, understanding the biblical definition for the meaning of good, should change how we view ourselves and other people.

Remember that God sees our thoughts as well as all our actions that come from our thoughts. Just because someone seems good on the outside, by our own definition, doesn't mean they are not constantly sinning on the inside.

EDITED

God says all mankind has sinned against Him and is separated from Him. The reason people do not want to come to God is because they want to continue to be selfish and not admit that they have sinned against God. All rebellion is based centered in selfishness.

True but at the end of the day I'll take being "saved" rather than being "good" ANY day of the week. The goal is about having a saved relationship with God and getting to heaven. We all have the choice to repent and deny ourselves to follow Jesus (see Luke 9:23-27;57-62). The issue is whether or not we CHOOSE to do so.

 

[Chaplain]

True but at the end of the day I'll take being "saved" rather than being "good" ANY day of the week. The goal is about having a saved relationship with God and getting to heaven. We all have the choice to repent and deny ourselves to follow Jesus (see Luke 9:23-27;57-62). The issue is whether or not we CHOOSE to do so.

Amen.

Jesus said people do not want to choose to follow him because they want to continue being selfish.

 

[Dude Abides]

Overall you have a pretty sad and borderline disgusting view on people. It's kinda scary.

You can't convince people to swallow your cure if you don't first convince them they're sick.

 

[JGS]

So in other words, it doesn't matter how good one is, if one deity doesn't get its self-centered obsession for being acknowledged as real, that person is going to suffer for all eternity. Makes sense. Might as well sin all the way and accept it at the last minute, since according to that kind of logic it's all you need.

The only real definition for good in regards to salvation is tied to worship.

So your way is one way to look at it. However, the far more accurate way to look at it is simply that lots of people do not want to worship God so are unable to be good in the greatest sense - only by their definition of it which is again irrelevant in regards to salvation.

If God has no power, then empty threats by him mean nothing. If he is powerful enough, then ones currently have the freedom to weep and gnash their teeth about unfair it is to worship. Maybe it'll change his mind. But there's no reason for him to compromise and acknowledge the whiners.

In common sense terms though, it makes little to no sense for God to even like people that don't like him, much less love them enough to open salvation to them through Jesus. but he does. God is so cruel lol) that a requirement of worship is for his worshippers to love people that don't like him either. It's a tough requirement, far harder than worshipping God actually, but we do it.

 

[Triple Oceans]

You can't force people to swallow the cure if they don't first realize they're sick.

Fixed.

 

[Dice]

Why am I always disappointed when I peek in here?

 

[JGS]

Why am I always disappointed when I peek in here?

It happens every few pages. There is a dispute amongst Christians that makes ones think that it has become a free for all.

Best place to go is still the Religion thread.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=389221&page=33

Copy/paste the discussion from here even. Some of us love going there to debate.

 

[Raist]

Everything I shared comes directly from God's Word.



Look at my previous posts. I gave scriptures for everything I said.

So, I guess since we were made in god's image, he's also impure, sick, full of sin and evil, etc etc?
The OT kinda makes sense now.

 

[Velti]

So, I guess since we were made in god's image, he's also impure, sick, full of sin and evil, etc etc?
The OT kinda makes sense now.

Obvious troll is obvious, or otherwise uninformed.

Spoiler

inb4both

Humanity is made in God's image and in the beginning was a perfect reflection of that, then Original Sin came along and separated us from God. (I'd say you can still see echoes of that reflection, in the best of people and their accomplishments.) It cannot be denied that humanity is a broken mess- the riots in London are the least of examples.

And yet one says, "I'm a good person- I'm a productive member of society! I tend the sick and feed the poor." These are all wonderful things, but simply being a "good person" does not permit you entrance into God's presence. People do not like to be told that they are sick, but sin of any kind, great or small, separates us from God.

Once you accept the gift of salvation, you are free from the judgment your sins would've otherwise brought down on you, and you enter into a relationship with God and the rest of the body of Christ. (Other believers.) Not to say that you are free to continue sinning- being saved means that, in addition to being able to enter into a relationship with Christ, you are now free to be able to resist the temptation to sin. Not that you'll never sin again, either, but that means that God and your brothers and sisters in Christ will be there to help pick you up again when you stumble.

As you grow, you learn to become more like Jesus, and behave like he did, loving and serving God and His children (saved and unsaved), becoming a blessing to those around you.

As stated before, the greatest commandment seems to say that, before we can love others more perfectly, we must become closer to God, in order to understand Him and His will.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Obvious troll is obvious, or otherwise uninformed.

Spoiler

inb4both

Humanity is made in God's image and in the beginning was a perfect reflection of that, then Original Sin came along and separated us from God. (I'd say you can still see echoes of that reflection, in the best of people and their accomplishments.) It cannot be denied that humanity is a broken mess- the riots in London are the least of examples.

And yet one says, "I'm a good person- I'm a productive member of society! I tend the sick and feed the poor." These are all wonderful things, but simply being a "good person" does not permit you entrance into God's presence. People do not like to be told that they are sick, but sin of any kind, great or small, separates us from God.

Once you accept the gift of salvation, you are free from the judgment your sins would've otherwise brought down on you, and you enter into a relationship with God and the rest of the body of Christ. (Other believers.) Not to say that you are free to continue sinning- being saved means that, in addition to being able to enter into a relationship with Christ, you are now free to be able to resist the temptation to sin. Not that you'll never sin again, either, but that means that God and your brothers and sisters in Christ will be there to help pick you up again when you stumble.

As you grow, you learn to become more like Jesus, and behave like he did, loving and serving God and His children (saved and unsaved), becoming a blessing to those around you.

As stated before, the greatest commandment seems to say that, before we can love others more perfectly, we must become closer to God, in order to understand Him and His will.

Great comment. Thanks.

 

[JGS]

So, I guess since we were made in god's image, he's also impure, sick, full of sin and evil, etc etc?
The OT kinda makes sense now.

Are you saying that your reflection is your clone stuck in the glass?

Image does not equate to equal being.

 

[Sabotage]

So you're saying that God only talks to himself and not to others?

No

Gen 1 shows plurality, multiple persons.... multiple persons such as in a trinity, that is all.

As oppposed to other Gods that people worship. Isaiah 44 is condemning idolatry which is not the case when following his annnointed son.

Isaiah 44:24 has nothing to do with idolatry but creation
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Yes or no, did God create all things, the heavens alone, and earth by himself?

Several verses including ones in John 1 disagree with you. Begotten by definition means birth.

Surely not John1:1

Begotten?

Hebrews11:17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

I do believe that Ishmael was born before Isaac, yet Isaac is the "only begotten son" just as Christ was
God's covenant was begotten through Isaac, just as the new covenant is begotten through Christ, it has nothing to do with any type of literal birth.

This verifies my view and expanding out to more of the chapter discounts the trinity.
Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Why, because it says "firstborn"?

Just like David was the firstborn, except he was the LASTborn in his family

Psalm 89:20I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him...
27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

How about Josephs' SECOND son Ephraim?

Jeremiah 31: 9They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Firstborn is a title that has nothing to do with rank of birth/creation, it's a title of distinguishment, excellence, or preeminence.

You first breakdown one verse while ignoring the the context of the rest of the chapter You are merely creating a loophole for my argument without actually explain the loophole.

There's no "loophole", it's real simple, it's the question I've asked you from the start

Who created all things?

Isaiah 44:24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I AM THE LORD THAT MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the HEAVENS alone; that spreadeth abroad the EARTH by myself;

Col1:16 FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in HEAVEN, and that are in EARTH, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Who created all things? Was it Christ or was it God?

 

[Dice]

John 20:27-28 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

 

[Raist]

Obvious troll is obvious, or otherwise uninformed.

Spoiler

inb4both

Humanity is made in God's image and in the beginning was a perfect reflection of that, then Original Sin came along and separated us from God. (I'd say you can still see echoes of that reflection, in the best of people and their accomplishments.) It cannot be denied that humanity is a broken mess- the riots in London are the least of examples.

And yet one says, "I'm a good person- I'm a productive member of society! I tend the sick and feed the poor." These are all wonderful things, but simply being a "good person" does not permit you entrance into God's presence. People do not like to be told that they are sick, but sin of any kind, great or small, separates us from God.

Once you accept the gift of salvation, you are free from the judgment your sins would've otherwise brought down on you, and you enter into a relationship with God and the rest of the body of Christ. (Other believers.) Not to say that you are free to continue sinning- being saved means that, in addition to being able to enter into a relationship with Christ, you are now free to be able to resist the temptation to sin. Not that you'll never sin again, either, but that means that God and your brothers and sisters in Christ will be there to help pick you up again when you stumble.

As you grow, you learn to become more like Jesus, and behave like he did, loving and serving God and His children (saved and unsaved), becoming a blessing to those around you.

As stated before, the greatest commandment seems to say that, before we can love others more perfectly, we must become closer to God, in order to understand Him and His will.

Just trying to understand the "logic" behind the whole "humanity is depraved and deserves to burn to hell blablabla".

I mean fair enough, but then if they were perfect, the original sin shouldn't have happened, should it?

 

[JGS]

No

Gen 1 shows plurality, multiple persons.... multiple persons such as in a trinity, that is all.

This doesn't seem to explain why you are certain that God is speaking as a trinity rather than with another anger or with his son Jesus as a seperate entity.

Isaiah 44:24 has nothing to do with idolatry but creation
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah 44 is clearly talking about idolotry. Isaiah 44:24 is discussing how God needed no help from foreign gods that other worship. I've already explained how he is the Creator even if he has a Master Worker at his side assisting in creation (Or other acts attributed to God even if handled by others)

Yes or no, did God create all things, the heavens alone, and earth by himself?

By funneling the power and abilty through another like they trust? Sure.

By himself only with no designations to others at all? Of course not. This wouldn't be correct even if there were a trinity if you stick to Isaiah 44:24 because it in the personage of God and not the son.

Surely not John1:1

Definitely John 1:1

However, if we were to take the purely English version of John 1:1, then it clearly contradicts with the ending of John 1. So either John is misguided, Jesus is misguided, or you're incorrect. I'm sorry, but between the options, I'm going with the most latter option.

Begotten?

Hebrews11:17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

I do believe that Ishmael was born before Isaac, yet Isaac is the "only begotten son" just as Christ was

Ishamael was never a legitimate son, but that's beside the point. The begotten is about birth and, whether trinity or not, Jesus came after God. If this weren't the case, then the terms used for trinity become even more confusing. Basically, this doesn't clear up the trinity but complicates it.

God's covenant was begotten through Isaac, just as the new covenant is begotten through Christ, it has nothing to do with any type of literal birth.

This is true. But the trinity would have existed before the covenant so the two, again aren't related issues.

Why, because it says "firstborn"?

Just like David was the firstborn, except he was the LASTborn in his family

Psalm 89:20I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him...
27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

David was firstborn because it was the start of the line that Jesus would go through.

How about Josephs' SECOND son Ephraim?

Jeremiah 31: 9They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Firstborn is a title that has nothing to do with rank of birth/creation, it's a title of distinguishment, excellence, or preeminence.

This is not true. Firstborn always, always, always denotes a birth or creation which is why God is distinguished from it.

Intentionally not commenting on Ephraim since I can't remember much about it, but it also has very little to do with trinitarian teaching.

There's no "loophole", it's real simple, it's the question I've asked you from the start

You just did it again- "Isaiah 44:24 (Specifically- no other context needed whatsoever) says that God acted alone, therefore the only possible answer is the trinity..."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're implying that I didn't answer, but it seems more likely that you simply want me to admit that you logic is infallible.

I can't do that.

As an aside, yes or no questions aren't too effective. For example:

Yes or No, did Jesus say The father is great than I?

 

[JGS]

I mean fair enough, but then if they were perfect, the original sin shouldn't have happened, should it?

Why would the two be connected in the slightest?

Perfection does not equate to unsinnable(?), it means you haven't sinned.

 

[Triple Oceans]

Why would the two be connected in the slightest?

Perfection does not equate to unsinnable(?), it means you haven't sinned.

This is SPOT on.

 

[ServBotPhil]

This is SPOT on.

G-d can't sin.

 

[Triple Oceans]

G-d can't sin.

Are you sure? You might want to think about that word you used. God will not sin because he is perfect. He has no desire to.

 

[partime]

WOW, so much to read in this thread!


but why?


Being a Christian to me means you don't have to understand everything there is about the Bible or the Christian Faith. Faith lets me leave all of the uncertainty up to God.

I'll ask him in Heaven, whether or not I'm re-incarnated until the second coming.




----


I saw a bus sign today near my apartment that read: 'I read the Bible, but now I'm a proud Atheist'. I couldn't help but laugh. I'm sure, out of all the pastors, priests, and pope's in our lifetime, that he was the only one that understood EVERYTHING there is about the Bible to make the assumption to not believe in any of it.

If we were all in agreement on what the Bible meant, there would be no denominations or separations in our beliefs.

 

[JGS]

G-d can't sin.

Although we disagree about this (Assuing you mean Jesus since I'm still not clear on the G-d thing), it doesn't really change anything in relation to the people made in God's image. We are definitely capable of sinning and we have the capacity to be perfect.

 

[ServBotPhil]

Are you sure? You might want to think about that word you used. God will not sin because he is perfect. He has no desire to.

He is perfect therefore it is impossible for him to sin. One of the definitions used in the Bible is the word 'ungodliness.' "Sin is everything (whether in thoughts, actions, or attributes) that does not express or conform to the holy character of G-d as expressed in his moral law (ESV Study Bible).

 

[ServBotPhil]

Although we disagree about this (Assuing you mean Jesus since I'm still not clear on the G-d thing), it doesn't really change anything in relation to the people made in God's image. We are definitely capable of sinning and we have the capacity to be perfect.

I would disagree because we are born and will die sinners. No one is righteous. We all sin. We may not want to, but we end up doing it. I believe perfection is only found in heaven. The is plenty good here on Earth, but the original sin screwed it up for all of us. Thankfully, Jesus reconciled our sin with his blood - the ultimate payment.

 

[JGS]

I would disagree because we are born and will die sinners. No one is righteous. We all sin. We may not want to, but we end up doing it. I believe perfection is only found in heaven. The is plenty good here on Earth, but the original sin screwed it up for all of us. Thankfully, Jesus reconciled our sin with his blood - the ultimate payment.

Adam wasn't in heaven but his sin was why we needed redemption- meaning that Adam started perfect and lost that. So whether we get perfection in heaven or not, perfection is in within the capacity of man.

Even if Jesus was God, he was still in man's form while on earth, so Jesus was also a perfect man showing the capacity for human to have it.

 

[Triple Oceans]

He is perfect therefore it is impossible for him to sin. One of the definitions used in the Bible is the word 'ungodliness.' "Sin is everything (whether in thoughts, actions, or attributes) that does not express or conform to the holy character of G-d as expressed in his moral law (ESV Study Bible).

Between what you're trying to get across and what I'm trying to get across, we're essentially talking about two ends of the same candle here.

 

[ServBotPhil]

If G-d is devoid of sin, how could he do something which is not in His nature?

 

[Sabotage]

Isaiah 44 is clearly talking about idolotry.

Wrong, there are 3 "Thus saith the LORD" in Isaiah 44

"Thus saith the LORD" denotes the beginning of a new topic/decree/act etc...

Isaiah 44:24-28 has nothing to do with idolatry

Therefore this still stands unaccounted by you

Isaiah44:Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

The LORD makes all things, heaven alone, earth by himself.

By himself only with no designations to others at all? Of course not. This wouldn't be correct even if there were a trinity if you stick to Isaiah 44:24 because it in the personage of God and not the son.

Actually it would be quite correct within the trinity since the Son is God

However, if we were to take the purely English version of John 1:1, then it clearly contradicts with the ending of John 1.

I see no contradiction, I see the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and the Word was Christ

Ishamael was never a legitimate son, but that's beside the point. The begotten is about birth and, whether trinity or not, Jesus came after God.

it has nothing to do with any type of literal birth.

This is true

Then what are you arguing about? Isaac and Christ were the "only begotten" but it has nothing to do with a literal birth or literal creation of them.

David was firstborn because it was the start of the line that Jesus would go through.

Right, which has nothing to do with literally being born or created first. Just as Jesus is firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead, it's simple a title of distinguishment.

Firstborn always, always, always denotes a birth or creation which is why God is distinguished from it.

Firstborn does not mean first created, it simple denotes a title of authority, excellence, or preeminence, not the start of the existence of the person. David was born last

You just did it again- "Isaiah 44:24 (Specifically- no other context needed whatsoever) says that God acted alone, therefore the only possible answer is the trinity..."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're implying that I didn't answer

No, I'm not implying it, you did not answer the question

All you said was "out of context" (which it isn't) and that's it.

Isaiah 44:24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I AM THE LORD THAT MAKETH ALL THINGS; that stretcheth forth the HEAVENS alone; that spreadeth abroad the EARTH by myself;

Col1:16 FOR BY HIM WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in HEAVEN, and that are in EARTH, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Who created all things? Was it Christ or was it God?

Yes or No, did Jesus say The father is great than I?

Yes, Jesus the man on earth, said the Father who's in heaven is greater than him.

See, it's not that hard.

 

[JGS]

Actually it would be quite correct within the trinity since the Son is God

I see no contradiction, I see the Word was God, and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and the Word was Christ

Yes, Jesus the man on earth, said the Father who's in heaven is greater than him.
See, it's not that hard.

Just to be clear, you seem to be saying:

1. Jesus and God are part of the trinity but don't have to be equal at all.
2. Jesus is less powerful than God while on earth but equally powerful in heaven.
3. Jesus is a seperate entity from God within a trinity, but is directly God in creation.

The one I'm not quite clear on is the John 1 reference. Did one part of the trinity become the Word or did it all become it?

Then what are you arguing about? Isaac and Christ were the "only begotten" but it has nothing to do with a literal birth or literal creation of them.
Right, which has nothing to do with literally being born or created first. Just as Jesus is firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the dead, it's simple a title of distinguishment.

Firstborn does not mean first created, it simple denotes a title of authority, excellence, or preeminence, not the start of the existence of the person. David was born last

No one is arguing about firstborn at all. I am simply stating the fact that begotten, firstborn, etc.. are all tied to a start, a beginning, a birth of something. It has never nor will ever be tied to something that did not have a beginning- aka God.

If the trinity is true then I don't understand how ones could say that the trinity has always been around when one part of it had a beginning. The rest of your examples, as I said previously, are irrelevant to a discussion of the trinity.

Honestly, we agree on most things except for the God and Jesus being the same. We agree that Jesus is the son and he's not as great as his father.

Anyway, I answered your question you say I haven't twice (At least). At this point, you'll just have to look deeper than you are regarding your trinity proofs.

 

[Chaplain]

Jesus illustrates how to witness and share our faith.