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[Raist]

Christianity usually would require understandng that the OT in many ways foreshadowed Christianity and the switch from being a citizen of a physical kingdom to a spiritual one. It also requires acceptance of prophecy.

With that in mind, there are many verses in OT that relate to Jesus- although I'm the wrong one to explain a link that God=Jesus since I don't believe that.

Yeah well you can do a lot of things with prophecies... Especially when you "analyze" them after the act and want to find the correct meaning there.

But anyways, didn't Isaiah say the guy would be called Immanuel? I'm kind of wondering how you can be spot on about a birth from a virgin 800 years before it happens but be dead wrong about the name.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

Christianity usually would require understandng that the OT in many ways foreshadowed Christianity and the switch from being a citizen of a physical kingdom to a spiritual one. It also requires acceptance of prophecy.

With that in mind, there are many verses in OT that relate to Jesus- although I'm the wrong one to explain a link that God=Jesus since I don't believe that.

Why don't you believe that? Honest question.

 

[JGS]

Yeah well you can do a lot of things with prophecies... Especially when you "analyze" them after the act and want to find the correct meaning there.

Christians tend to not think so although I do agree that interpretation is the biggest problem plaguing anything that's debateable & it doesn't stop with religion. Atheists, skeptics , & agnostics view prophecies and miracles as impossible so not sure if there would be a point arguing those which is why I don't. Talking to Christians, the assumption is propecies and miracles are true, but again the ionterpretation is what's debated.

However, even from a logic standpoint, it is extremely difficult to link up a particular prophecy with a particular person or timeframe- especially if the people doing the interpretting aren't known for any particularly extraordinary level of intelligent. In the case, we're referring to, John is providing the connection and that's all we are discussing whether he's forcing the issue or not. Basically there is no confusion in regards to that particular verse.

The timeframe was spelled out in Daniel (possibly Ezekiel too, but not sure) and so people were in expectation of the Messiah appearing around that time.

But anyways, didn't Isaiah say the guy would be called Immanuel? I'm kind of wondering how you can be spot on about a birth from a virgin 800 years before it happens but be dead wrong about the name.

Jesus went by many names. His name probably wasn't Jesus, iut just fit the best universal translation. The purpose behind the name was the important thing so that people would know what to be in expectation of and Immanuel was a pretty holy name.

Why don't you believe that? Honest question.

I simply think that Jesus spent the vast majority of the time making it clear he was inferior to his father even as he was the perfect reflection of him. I think the apostles and the remainder of NT make it clear the order of the hierarchy rather than conglomeration.

Nothing in the OT refers to the trinity and most of Jewish belief was tied to the worship of one. In fact, there would be no need to prophesy about a coming Messiah to begin with if it was believed that the trinity existed. To believe in the trinity would be, imo, believeing that God not only changed the way to worship him (Which is understandable from the jump to a spiritual nation ecompassing all over a physical one that focused on the offspring of Abraham), but who we worship as well. Basically, it's like God changed which I am very uncomfortable with thinking considering there's not enough verses to prove that.

Honestly, I think the trinity is a result of a later religious belief and not the intent of the NT.

EDIT: I bet preface this with a little background. I went to church that taught trinity, left became pseudo agnostic which didn't feel right so I read the Bible on a clean slate. Throughout the entire reading, I rarely if ever got the impression that Jesus & God were the same and the holy Ghost/Spirit always seemed like an afterthought to the whole trinity thing. So I didn't really come from this thought from a particular belief system. People tend to assume that I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Although I admire them and they have influenced/perhaps solidified my views later on, it's a fluke that we come to the same conclusion.

 

[ServBotPhil]

He was more than encased or else he wouldn't be born, develop, & be powerless prior to his baptism (Although still perfect). The miracles themselves do not prove he is God because people before and after him performed miracles as well- up to and including resurrections.

Jesus is perfect because he didn't sin which is quite a bit different than your take.

Jesus is the equivalent of Adam prior to sinning which is what's necessary for redemption.

He was not powerless before His baptism. He is G-d. He has infinite power and ability and is perfect. Nothing can taint the perfection of G-d. The miracles were performed by Jesus so people would understand who He was. You are saying Adam was similar to G-d. Adam was as similar to a spider than G-d - he bore the image of G-d. Jesus is unable to sin because he is G-d.

 

[JGS]

He was not powerless before His baptism. He is G-d. He has infinite power and ability and is perfect. Nothing can taint the perfection of G-d. The miracles were performed by Jesus so people would understand who He was. You are saying Adam was similar to G-d. Adam was as similar to a spider than G-d - he bore the image of G-d. Jesus is unable to sin because he is G-d.

You can't convince solely by statement.

A couple of points that hopefully you can reply to:

Why did other people perform miracles?
Why would Satan tempt God?
I'm not saying Adam is similar to God (Except for him being in God's image). I'm saying Jesus is perfect like Adam was perfect.

I'm not meaning disrespect and I honestly don't understand the G-D thing. Either Jesus is God or he's not. I say he's not.

 

[ServBotPhil]

You can't convince solely by statement.

A couple of points that hopefully you can reply to:

Why did other people perform miracles?
Why would Satan tempt God?
I'm not saying Adam is similar to God (Except for him being in God's image). I'm saying Jesus is perfect like Adam was perfect.

I'm not meaning disrespect and I honestly don't understand the G-D thing. Either Jesus is God or he's not. I say he's not.

I believe that Satan tried to tempt Jesus he is overzealous and prideful. His attempts show that he is not superior to G-d. I also think it teaches us how to overcome in spiritual warfare.

I am unsure what you are referring to in the first question (example please).

 

[JGS]

I believe that Satan tried to tempt Jesus he is overzealous and prideful. His attempts show that he is not superior to G-d. I also think it teaches us how to overcome in spiritual warfare.

I am unsure what you are referring to in the first question (example please).

I guess my point was that at anytime Satan could tempt God the way he tempted angels. Why wait if the result would be the same? Satan is evil and opportunistic, but he's not stupid. He already knew he was no where near God's equal. He was Jesus' equal either, but there was still the possibility. He takes advanatge of particular situations and the best time to strike Jesus was toward the beginning of his ministry.

As to the first question, you mentioned that he performed works to show who he was, but other people performed similar works. Miracles were often used to show God's backing, so I'm not sure why Jesus' would be used to show divinity except for the sheer volume of them I guess.

 

[ServBotPhil]

I guess my point was that at anytime Satan could tempt God the way he tempted angels. Why wait if the result would be the same? Satan is evil and opportunistic, but he's not stupid. He already knew he was no where near God's equal. He was Jesus' equal either, but there was still the possibility. He takes advanatge of particular situations and the best time to strike Jesus was toward the beginning of his ministry.

As to the first question, you mentioned that he performed works to show who he was, but other people performed similar works. Miracles were often used to show God's backing, so I'm not sure why Jesus' would be used to show divinity except for the sheer volume of them I guess.

Nontrinitarianism. Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit is God also?

 

[JGS]

Nontrinitarianism. Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit is God also?

No. There is even less support for that than there is for Jesus being God.

All indications are that holy spirit is energy or power that emanates from God.

EDIT: I should clarify this by saying holy spirit/ghost is always on the move and specific. So it's not the same as God's omnipotence. It's always used for a specific purpose iirc.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

No. There is even less support for that than there is for Jesus being God.

All indications are that holy spirit is energy or power that emanates from God.

What? Do you read the New Testament?

 

[JGS]

What? Do you read the New Testament?

Of course

 

[ServBotPhil]

No. There is even less support for that than there is for Jesus being God.

All indications are that holy spirit is energy or power that emanates from God.

Do you refer to your beliefs as 'Christian'. If so which denomination?

 

[JGS]

Do you refer to your beliefs as 'Christian'. If so which denomination?

Of course. However, considering so many don't view denominations as important, I'm not sure why it's important to know mine.

Although I'm not asking for a debate on the subject, the debate about the trinity should be about the teaching in connection to Biblical record not in relation to a particular church's teaching.

Based on what's been presented so far, there's no particular reason to question whether I'm a Christian or not anyway.

 

[Velti]

Some thoughts, limited by my own human understanding, though I pray they are Spirit lead and may help someone get a better understanding.

First, background: I'm a college graduate with a BS in Horticulture w/ an emphasis on the scientific aspects. I accepted Christ when I was very young and have experienced different periods of spiritual growth and change throughout my life. I consider myself non-denominational- that my faith is most defined by the fact that I follow Jesus and believe he was the son of God, and that the Bible is the word of God written by men lead by his spirit.

Anyhow! Although the Bible doesn't refer to the trinity by name, I would venture to say that it's a convenient way to analyze how God presents Himself. The Father represents God's glorious presence, the kind that descended on Mount Sinai and had to be shrouded in clouds, the kind that had to be separated from the rest of humanity by a curtain in a temple, lest they be destroyed.

The Son is... God's son. A flesh and blood man conceived by the Spirit of God and imbued with His wisdom and power, sent from a place of glory and perfection to fulfill God's plan in a humble human body on a squalid planet. Because of his humble human form, we were able to approach him, and he was able to take on the punishment meant for all humanity as a blameless, unblemished sin offering, destroying forever the curtain keeping man from approaching the Father (literally). (Name's given in the OT aren't chosen by accident- the name Immanuel means "God with us." I don't play on addressing the deity of Christ in this post... it's long enough as it is.)

The Spirit is the helper and teacher Jesus told his disciples about in the Gospels before he ascended into Heaven, the one that descended on them like flames during Pentecost in Acts. All those who honestly accept Christ as their Lord and Savior are filled with the Spirit at that very instant, and it continues to guide and help them throughout their walk.

Here's a pretty heady passage about it:

God’s Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit
6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”—
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c] 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”[d]

But we have the mind of Christ.

It sounds nuts on a cracker, and it admits it, and I love it to pieces. Now, it's super easy to misinterpret this passage, but from my understanding, it basically seems to say that people with the Spirit are given spiritual discernment- not the right to "judge" everyone, but to determine right from wrong action/behavior, and to adjust their own conduct and that of their brothers and sisters in Christ accordingly, and to not be discouraged when people call them idiots.

Spoiler

lolfark

People filled with the Spirit of God, much like a plant given the proper environment and fertilizer, should "bear fruit."

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Spoiler

Oh man, as a Hort major, I get ALL UP on the botanical/plant metaphors. They're just great ways to express so many different aspects of spiritual growth, as seen in the parables.

 

[ServBotPhil]

Of course. However, considering so many don't view denominations as important, I'm not sure why it's important to know mine.

Although I'm not asking for a debate on the subject, the debate about the trinity should be about the teaching in connection to Biblical record not in relation to a particular church's teaching.

Based on what's been presented so far, there's no particular reason to question whether I'm a Christian or not anyway.

To call yourself a Christian and also believe that Christ isn't the savior is contradictory. That's why I asked which denomination you were a part of. Christianity ---> Christ ---> Jesus, Savior, Messiah. If this doesn't add up, then maybe you are Jewish (which is okay).

 

[JGS]

To call yourself a Christian and also believe that Christ isn't the savior is contradictory. That's why I asked which denomination you were a part of. Christianity ---> Christ ---> Jesus, Savior, Messiah. If this doesn't add up, then maybe you are Jewish (which is okay).

I never said Jesus wasn't the Savior. He is also King, Redeemer, High Priest, Perfecter, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, & a host of other titles. The only thing he is not is God which means he is better than everything else.

You are the one that's devaluing his significance by insisting he can only be either God or trash.

I'm Christian but it's OK if you don't believe that.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

I never said Jesus wasn't the Savior. He is also King, Redeemer, High Priest, Perfecter, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, & a host of other titles. The only thing he is not is God which means he is better than everything else.

You are the one that's devaluing his significance by insisting he can only be either God or trash.

I'm Christian but it's OK if you don't believe that.

yes he is. 3 separate persons. but a single GOD. (i dont even want to begin placing that logic in a box)
maybe what you meant is jesus isn't the father.
pray to jesus or the holy spirit and tell me if the father gets jealous of your attention.

and the OT does talk about 2/3s of the trinity.

“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.” (II Samuel 7:12-14)

there are numerous prophecies about the messiah being the son of God (or extension of the father;in transliterated hebrew)

 

[ServBotPhil]

I never said Jesus wasn't the Savior. He is also King, Redeemer, High Priest, Perfecter, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace, & a host of other titles. The only thing he is not is God which means he is better than everything else.

You are the one that's devaluing his significance by insisting he can only be either God or trash.

I'm Christian but it's OK if you don't believe that.

So you think Jesus = Father? How can anyone but God save you from hell?

 

[JGS]

yes he is. 3 separate persons. but a single GOD.
maybe what you meant is jesus isn't the father.
pray to jesus or the holy spirit and tell me if the father gets jealous of your attention.

I meant what I said.

I don't pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit ever. That's not what he taught us to do.

So you think Jesus = Father? How can anyone but God save you from hell?

No one but God can save people from death but it's through the arrangement he put in place to allow Jesus to act on his purpose. God's goal of salvation for all is tied directly with Jesus offering himself as a sacrifice as a mand for all men- not God doing so which again is overkill since we nor anyone else is equal to God.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

I meant what I said.

I don't pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit ever. That's not what he taught us to do.

If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

"God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship(or communion) with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

and you have once prayed to jesus. assuming you're a christian. the salvation prayer.

and its quite alright to pray to the holy spirit as well.

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

 

[JGS]

and you have once prayed to jesus. assuming you're a christian. the salvation prayer.

and its quite alright to pray to the holy spirit as well.

John 14:14 mentions praying in his name not to him. He is the mediator between us and God. We need him in our prayers but we don't petition him, we petition God in Jesus' name, Amen.

What scripture is the salvation prayer at?

EDIT: 2 Cor. 13:14 is not a prayer but a fantastic spiritual farewell. A secular equivalent would be "hugs and kisses!"

 

[legend166]

I think a nontrinitarian (is that a word?) reading of scripture really takes away a lot of the beauty of Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

John 14:14 mentions praying in his name not to him. He is the mediator between us and God. We need him in our prayers but we don't petition him, we petition God in Jesus' name, Amen.

What scripture is the salvation prayer at?

Jesus said the father is in him an he in the father. So you are praying to the father if you pray to jesus. And the other two verses you can't discount.

There is no verse on a specific salvation, acknowledgement and repentance is all there is. God since the days of adam, wants to restore fellowship with man

EDIT: 2 Cor. 13:14 is not a prayer but a fantastic spiritual farewell. A secular equivalent would be "hugs and kisses!"

its not a secular bon voyage speech, he meant what he said. He wants us to fellowship with the spirit.

 

[ServBotPhil]

John 14:14 mentions praying in his name not to him. He is the mediator between us and God. We need him in our prayers but we don't petition him, we petition God in Jesus' name, Amen.

What scripture is the salvation prayer at?

EDIT: 2 Cor. 13:14 is not a prayer but a fantastic spiritual farewell. A secular equivalent would be "hugs and kisses!"

John 14:1 "Believe in G-d; Believe also in me." John 14:14, "If you ask me....anything in my name. Couldn't you just tell us what denomination you're a part of?

 

[JGS]

I think a nontrinitarian (is that a word?) reading of scripture really takes away a lot of the beauty of Christ's sacrifice.

I think it adds to it.

Do not read unless you want to get mad or even (Sorry but I'm free streamin' for this):

Spoiler

A trinitarian sacrifice means that God only accomplished something that was impossible to stop to begin with. Watching Jesus as God praying to himself is a shell game since if infallible, he doesn't need help. His approving of himself a con since he was apprived of at birth. On top of that, he tricked his friend Abraham's offspring into thinking he's something he's not. Why would the Jews not be privvy to Jesus if they are the ones who wrote the prophecies about him? Finally for now (Because there's other stuff), it showed he lacked confidence in man's ability to actually be able to worship him perfectly so he had to take matters in his own hands. If he were going to do that, he should have just started from scratch from the get go instead of preparing the Jews for his arrival even though he had already been with them. Even from a literary standard, it feels very deus ex machina.

On the other hand we have Jesus as a perfect man. As a man he felt what we felt, endured what we did. He had a love for his father that was so great he was worried about what his persecution would do to his name. The loive he had for his father was also so strong that that is the reason he wasn't going to failHe focused his entire ministry on glorifying God by teaching and by miracles. He was a cool son, a great friend to his disciples, a deliverer for the all people who wanted it, and someone who had a proud Dad who knew he would do the right thing. You also have God who for centuries was preparing for the time when his son was going to give hi life for a mostly unappreciative population, who made sure that the plans he put in place would be carried out, & yet still made sure that at the end of the day he trusted his son to make the right choices to save mankind and get blessings for that sacrifice that he could have qualified for anyway.

Non-trinitarian scripture is awesome, unified, and accurate imo.

 

[ServBotPhil]

It's heresy. The chief end of G-d is to glorify Himself and enjoy Himself forever. That is not Christianity. I'm sorry. But it's not.

 

[JGS]

Jesus said the father is in him an he in the father. So you are praying to the father if you pray to jesus. And the other two verses you can't discount.

This is why my rule of thumb is gold- You cannot completely understand a verse without reading the chapter it's found in.

John 14 is a speech to his disciples regarding the fact that he will never really leave them. he is about to take charge of the church so they will actively be receiving instruction from him. They can have confidence in his ability becaue a. Jesus has carried out things perfectly and he is the perfect reflection of his father & b. His father is going to be right beside him in approval.

A common practice of Jesus' was to start things with vagueries and explain in more detail as the interest is shown. This is what makes focusing on John 14:14 so peculiar since John 14:15 makes this clear as day there is more to the story. How anyone can get hung up on 14:14 and not pay attention to 15-21 is surprising to me. By your reasonings, Jesus disciples were part of the trinity too.

Again, I still maintain my rule of thumb- chapters over verses.

There is no verse on a specific salvation, acknowledgement and repentance is all there is. God since the days of adam, wants to restore fellowship with man

Well, I know how to do that, but you specifically titled it and alluded to it requiring prayer to Jesus so I was confused.

its not a secular bon voyage speech, he meant what he said. He wants us to fellowship with the spirit.

Not disagreeing with that. Disagreeing with it being a prayer which it's not.

 

[JGS]

It's heresy.

Heresy is a church term so depending on the denomination, me not believing in a trinity could very well be heresy. That's not my concern as I'm pretty confident I'm not saying anything too controversial per Christian Doctrine fouind in the OT & NT.

The chief end of G-d is to glorify Himself and enjoy Himself forever. That is not Christianity. I'm sorry. But it's not.

A Christian is a follower of Christ, so yes I am a Christian because that's what I do to the best of my abilty. Fortunately you don't actually have the ability to dictate that to me. You follow Christ by acknowledging what he taught which is quite simply that his father is greater than he is.

I have never seen a scripture that indicates God's purpose is to enjoy himself forever.

God's purpose in relation to us and the angels is his right to rule- his sovreignty. Some said they could rule better than him, he said give it a shot. Nothing we or Satan did took away his glory unless it could be proven he wasn't needed which is impossible. He definitely deserves to be given glory though and his right to rule should concern all Christians.

 

[ServBotPhil]

John 14:14 mentions praying in his name not to him. He is the mediator between us and God. We need him in our prayers but we don't petition him, we petition God in Jesus' name, Amen.

What scripture is the salvation prayer at?

EDIT: 2 Cor. 13:14 is not a prayer but a fantastic spiritual farewell. A secular equivalent would be "hugs and kisses!"

This is why my rule of thumb is gold- You cannot completely understand a verse without reading the chapter it's found in.

John 14 is a speech to his disciples regarding the fact that he will never really leave them. he is about to take charge of the church so they will actively be receiving instruction from him. They can have confidence in his ability becaue a. Jesus has carried out things perfectly and he is the perfect reflection of his father & b. His father is going to be right beside him in approval.

A common practice of Jesus' was to start things with vagueries and explain in more detail as the interest is shown. This is what makes focusing on John 14:14 so peculiar since John 14:15 makes this clear as day there is more to the story. How anyone can get hung up on 14:14 and not pay attention to 15-21 is surprising to me. By your reasonings, Jesus disciples were part of the trinity too.

Again, I still maintain my rule of thumb- chapters over verses.

Well, I know how to do that, but you specifically titled it and alluded to it requiring prayer to Jesus so I was confused.

Not disagreeing with that. Disagreeing with it being a prayer which it's not.

Here we go. John 14 starts out with Jesus telling us to believe in Him. He goes on to say that He is the way, the truth, and the life. Then, he promises that when He leaves that He will send the Holy Spirit to teach us. In 15-21, he doesn't mention the disciples. It's interesting how you say chapters over verses, but you only quote verses. You can say you believe about Jesus, but if you don't believe in Him, you aren't a follower of Christ and therefore a Christian.

 

[JGS]

Here we go. John 14 starts out with Jesus telling us to believe in Him.

I'm not sure why you think I don't agree with that.

He goes on to say that He is the way, the truth, and the life. Then, he promises that when He leaves that He will send the Holy Spirit to teach us.

OK, but that means he will just send himself correct? Why not just stay on earth?

In 15-21, he doesn't mention the disciples.

Who do you think he's talking to when he says "I am in union with you"?

It's interesting how you say chapters over verses, but you only quote verses. You can say you believe about Jesus, but if you don't believe in Him, you aren't a follower of Christ and therefore a Christian.

Wat. The chapter has the verses in them.

I think it's unwise to pull a verse out of the context of the scriptures. The chapter explains the context the verses are being said. I still maintain that you cannot pull out 14:14 as a trinity proof without ignoring the following verses after it or the ones prior to it.

So are you going to continue telling me I'm not a Christian or are you going to provide a little more detail on why you think you are? Telling me I'm not a Christian is getting kind of stale and it moves me to follow my tag which I'd really rather not do in this thread.

 

[ServBotPhil]

I'm not sure why you think I don't agree with that.

You have stated that you don't believe Jesus is G-d.

OK, but that means he will just send himself correct? Why not just stay on earth?

He felt 30-something years was enough. Humans die. It was his decision. I can't speak on the behalf of the thoughts of G-d.

Who do you think he's talking to when he says "I am in union with you"?

Which translation are you using?

Wat. The chapter has the verses in them.

You were being hypocritical. I'm was just stating the obvious.

I think it's unwise to pull a verse out of the context of the scriptures. The chapter explains the context the verses are being said. I still maintain that you cannot pull out 14:14 as a trinity proof without ignoring the following verses after it or the ones prior to it.

So are you going to continue telling me I'm not a Christian or are you going to provide a little more detail on why you think you are? Telling me I'm not a Christian is getting kind of stale and it moves me to follow my tag which I'd really rather not do in this thread.

Chapter 14 proves the Trinity. I believe I am a Christian because I have faith that G-d loves and protects me and that he wants me with him. It's pretty simple.

I think I was trying to say that your beliefs are not classified as Christian (maybe Jewish or Muslim), and that they are heretical. Heresy is defined as un-Biblical. G-d created us to worship Him and not abuse this land. He created us to worship (glorify) him. Everything G-d does shows that his purpose is to receive worship.

I apologize for saying you weren't a Christian, your language just tends to contradict Christianity.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I did not read the whole thread, so I apologize beforehand if this is already covered, but I cannot understand the whole concept of Holy Trinity. Can someone explain this for me?

 

[JGS]

You have stated that you don't believe Jesus is G-d.

So that mathematically eliminates me believing in Jesus?

He felt 30-something years was enough. Humans die. It was his decision. I can't speak on the behalf of the thoughts of G-d.

A true Christian would know the reason for Jesus' minsitry and why it was only a few years. A true Christian would ahave been able to actually find the answers easily in the NT.

Which translation are you using?

Doesn't usually matter so for the purposes of board posts I use one of the first translations that pull up on Biblegateway.com. I search a few at a time to cross check the translations.

You were being hypocritical. I'm was just stating the obvious.

How was i being hypocritical unless you assumed I was stating to look at the chapter number only?

Chapter 14 proves the Trinity. I believe I am a Christian because I have faith that G-d loves and protects me and that he wants me with him. It's pretty simple.

Chapter 14 proves:
- That Jesus is needed to get to God
- That unity with God and Jesus is possible for Christians
- That we should look to Jesus for direction
- That Holy Spirit is used to help us
- That putting faith in Jesus means we put faith in God as well

Can't find the trinity in any translation

I think I was trying to say that your beliefs are not classified as Christian (maybe Jewish or Muslim), and that they are heretical. Heresy is defined as un-Biblical.

I know what you were saying. If heresy is defined as based on the Bible, I've committed no heresy.

G-d created us to worship Him and not abuse this land. He created us to worship (glorify) him. Everything G-d does shows that his purpose is to receive worship.

God's survival and satisfaction are not dependent on our worship which means that cannot be his purpose. Our purpose could very well be to worship him, but that's a different matter.

I apologize for saying you weren't a Christian, your language just tends to contradict Christianity.

I've been on this board for a while defending Christianity from a lot of really mean people and I usually do this based on Scripture. The two primary things I always disagree with are the trinity & eternal torment. I'm willing to risk salvation on those two since I don't think I'm putting God to the test on either of them.

 

[Fedos]

I did not read the whole thread, so I apologize beforehand if this is already covered, but I cannot understand the whole concept of Holy Trinity. Can someone explain this for me?

Well, trying to come to some kind of understanding of the Trinity is perhaps one of the biggest obstacles to accepting the claims of Christianity. However you could perhaps come to this conclusion from a scripture in the Old Testament no less:

' And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' Genesis 1:26. We as human beings are made in the image and likeness of God and as he is Triune in nature and is still one so to are we. As it goes: God=The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirt, the soul, and the body.

 

[akachan ningen]

I have a question:

If you were bad and went to hell, would you ever get another chance to redeem yourself?

 

[ServBotPhil]

I've been on this board for a while defending Christianity from a lot of really mean people and I usually do this based on Scripture. The two primary things I always disagree with are the trinity & eternal torment. I'm willing to risk salvation on those two since I don't think I'm putting God to the test on either of them.

So, what kind of church do you go to where they teach this?

 

[JGS]

So, what kind of church do you go to where they teach this?

Doesn't matter. Again, what's important is verifying the trinity over there not being a trinity.

I personally think the inspired Scriptural record does a far better job of keeping the father, son , & holy spirit seperate mainly because the big churches kinda stink at explaining it. I think enough religions are confused by it to literally not talk about it at all in any detail and just assume it. So even if I belong to a church that has no choice but to teach it for fear of heresy, that doesn't mean I put faith in it (That doesn't mean this is the case). I can't. You can't force faith and devotion in something that is unbeleivable.

I believe the trinity idea was around far earlier than Christianity and was a compromise in order to grow Christianity quickly- along with Hellfire. The few verses that can only allude to it are shoehorned in to make it a primary doctrine even though it's never taught and apparently isn't nearly as crucial as even avoiding fornication.

You mentioned that I sound Jewish a couple of times, but I'm not quite clear on something.

Are you correctly acknowledging that Jews don't accept the trinity?

If so, are you thinking that God deliberately kept them out of the loop?

Does Christianity force you to change your loyalties to a triune from a monotheistic way?

Again, since they knew the Messiah was coming, why would God teach them about exclusive devotion and one God only to have them quickly convert to Christianity which not only erased the Law, but apparently would also change who they worship? In fact, it changes it to who they should have been worshipping all along if only God had told them.

I have a question:

If you were bad and went to hell, would you ever get another chance to redeem yourself?

My understanding is the answer is no. You will continue to be tortured for all your days which is eternity for at most a lifetime of sinning, but likely a fraction of that time. The belief goes that you had this eternal torment coming for being sinful. If it weren't permanent I would assume that everyone that's there past an hour would repent.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' Genesis 1:26. We as human beings are made in the image and likeness of God and as he is Triune in nature and is still one so to are we. As it goes: God=The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirt, the soul, and the body.

That's one of the better explanations. However, the three parts of man aren't combined and sentient are they?

Genesis tells me that God had help in creation which later verses verify was his son Jesus.

As an aside, this also ties into why Jesus and not any old perfect angel would do for sacrifice.

Some thoughts, limited by my own human understanding, though I pray they are Spirit lead and may help someone get a better understanding.

Good post. Nice perspective on things.

 

[Sabotage]

Genesis tells me that God had help in creation which later verses verify was his son Jesus.

Are you sure about that?

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

 

[Chaplain]

Are you sure about that?

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Genesis 1 says that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, but John 1 says that without the Son nothing was made that was made. So who created the earth—the Father or the Son?

A good way to look at is like this: The Father as the Architect (Genesis 1:1), the Son as the Contractor (John 1:1), and the Holy Spirit as the Carpenter (Genesis 1:2). The analogy is far from perfect, but the fact is all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in the creative process.

"For in Him (Jesus) the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature]." Colossians 2:9

Creation occurred from the Father, by the Son, through the Holy Spirit.

"And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command[." Hebrews 1:2-3

"Through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross[." Colossians 1:16,19

"For the Spirit of God has made me,
and the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33:4

"His Spirit made the heavens beautiful,
and his power pierced the gliding serpent." Job 26:1

 

[midramble]

Just an opinion that I share with a writer.

"I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Cristian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son."

- C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity Preface)

Since this thread is a gathering of fellow christians this is a part of the body of christ and thus essentially a church. This thread began with worship and testimony and some debate and turned into pure theological debate. Is it a church's purpose to only be an open public house of theological debate?

 

[JGS]

Are you sure about that?

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

That doesn't contradict anything. God was responsible for all creation even if he used his son as a master worker. I think of it as the difference between the construction company and the foreman given responsibility for the construction.

Proverbs 8 describes the relationship particularly this bit:

22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,[c][d]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly[e] at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

Colossians 1 spells it out even clearer:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Just an opinion that I share with a writer.

"I think we must admit that the discussion of these disputed points has no tendency at all to bring an outsider into the Cristian fold. So long as we write and talk about them we are much more likely to deter him from entering any Christian communion than to draw him into our own. Our divisions should never be discussed except in the presence of those who have already come to believe that there is one God and that Jesus Christ is His only Son."

- C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity Preface)

Since this thread is a gathering of fellow christians this is a part of the body of christ and thus essentially a church. This thread began with worship and testimony and some debate and turned into pure theological debate. Is it a church's purpose to only be an open public house of theological debate?

I kind of agree with this although I also think that debate for clarity's sake would solve a lot of issues in Christianity. Going on cruise control would interest only those not questioning. Questions are something the NT in particular has always encouraged. So if I'm confused about a doctrinal point, one's should have the skill to debate it just like the early disciples did. There are several like me who would leave Christianity altogether if it meant being forced a belief that they can't have faith in since there is little to no support for it.

I try pretty hard to avoid these debates about the trinity and usually am dragged into them and will gladly stop when the topic is stopped as I really don't want to offend anyone and I'm in the minority.

This view is far less so regarding Hellfire though. Unlike the trinity, hellfire redefines God in a very unpleasant, sadistic way- to the point that I can't stomach his characterization as a being that tortures for the good of mankind.

 

[operon]

I would have thought the the basic tenets of Christianity is that Jesus is the son of God, John 8:58 makes it very clear, "before abraham was I Am". "I AM that I AM" is what God told Moses what his name was, and Jesus saying that before abraham was born he was "I Am" he is saying he was God, and the jews quite clearly understood this to be the case

 

[Chaplain]

In order to get this thread back on track, here is a in-depth commentary on John 1:1.

 

[JGS]

In order to get this thread back on track, here is a in-depth commentary on John 1:1:

That was not getting back on track lol.

But I won't touch it so that it can get back on the track that the majority want it to be on. It doesn't matter to me that much.

 

[Raist]

That was not getting back on track lol.

But I won't touch it so that it can get back on the track that the majority want it to be on. It doesn't matter to me that much.

Well looks like Game Analyst's opinion on how this thread should be ran is to spam subjective commentaries by some people (probably the Only True Christians) who cherry pick verses and give their own opinion on the matter. No debate allowed here. So I guess it's back on track now.

 

[Chaplain]

Well looks like Game Analyst's opinion on how this thread should be ran is to spam subjective commentaries by some people (probably the Only True Christians) who cherry pick verses and give their own opinion on the matter. No debate allowed here. So I guess it's back on track now.

Arguing is not going to get anyone anywhere. We as believers either believe what God's Word says or we do not. I believe it is better to focus on the things we do believe then to get caught in rabbit holes that lead to pointless debates that sometimes stumble people.

I post what I do because I work more than 11 hours a day (including 2 hours of driving back and forth from work) and do not have the free-time to type everything I want to say. I would rather point people to writings that will build them up and help them walk with Christ, then to not say anything at all.

 

[JGS]

Arguing is not going to get anyone anywhere. We as believers either believe what God's Word says or we do not. I believe it is better to focus on the things we do believe then to get caught in rabbit holes that lead to pointless debates that sometimes stumble people.

I post what I do because I work more than 11 hours a day (including 2 hours of driving back and forth from work) and do not have the free-time to type everything I want to say. I would rather point people to writings that will build them up and help them walk with Christ, then to not say anything at all.

But WE don't necessarily believe in the trinity. There's apparently even a name for people like me in Christianity.

If the commentary you posted was actually a part of the Bible, there would be no argument. There is plenty to comment on regarding the accuracy of the commentary, so if ones wanted to, it could only add to the debate not diffuse it.

In short, it would have been better to simply say "Guys, let's lay off the trinity".

 

[Raist]

Arguing is not going to get anyone anywhere. We as believers either believe what God's Word says or we do not. I believe it is better to focus on the things we do believe then to get caught in rabbit holes that lead to pointless debates that sometimes stumble people.

I post what I do because I work more than 11 hours a day (including 2 hours of driving back and forth from work) and do not have the free-time to type everything I want to say. I would rather point people to writings that will build them up and help them walk with Christ, then to not say anything at all.

Well it's a thread about Christianity. You do realize that there are several views, which, like it or not, do not always converge, right? So pretending to help people (?) and try to stop a debate by posting walls of text originating from probably just ONE church is not making any difference. It's biased as hell as well and can only fuel the debate even more if anything. It's like you try to impose your own view/church/whatever on other christians posting here, and basically say "hey guys, stop the debate, here's The Truth".

 

[Velti]

I did not read the whole thread, so I apologize beforehand if this is already covered, but I cannot understand the whole concept of Holy Trinity. Can someone explain this for me?

I tried to address it earlier on this page, but I've been largely ignored for some reason.

Well it's a thread about Christianity. You do realize that there are several views, which, like it or not, do not always converge, right? So pretending to help people (?) and try to stop a debate by posting walls of text originating from probably just ONE church is not making any difference. It's biased as hell as well and can only fuel the debate even more if anything. It's like you try to impose your own view/church/whatever on other christians posting here, and basically say "hey guys, stop the debate, here's The Truth".

It's really no more different than if he had typed something up for two hours and posted it; either way he's trying to reach for/share what he believes to be true, and submit it for discussion. That's what forums like this are all about.

 

[midramble]

Proverbs 13:10 "Where there is strife, there is pride, but wisdom is found in those who take advice."

On a different subject can I ask for you all to pray for my wife and I. I put my testimony on the situation earlier in this thread (a page or two back). She left me 6 months ago and after a lot of me coming closer to God she came back. Now she is struggling again and wants to get over me. It is a little humiliating to post this on a public forum; however, I have to come to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ when I need spiritual help. Please pray that I have the selflessness required to be a Godly husband and that my wife looks towards God in everything. Above all though, Gods will be done.

As a matter of fact, does anyone else here have any prayer requests. If I can do nothing else I can at least pray for you.