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Christianity [OT] The Word became flesh and dwelt among us
AngularSaxophone
Banned
If you’re referring to the council of Nicaea I’d argue they removed books that were supposed to be there to hide truth. Take the book of Jasher for instance. Why would scripture point to a book that isn’t in the Bible? And when you read it, BAM. far more detail and revelation.
hecatomb
Banned
There are somethings that it says that contradicts the Bible, also it was never part of the Bible, just like he says
The book of Enoch is not in harmony with the rest of Scripture. Here are some examples:
a. The story of angels having sex with women contradicts Jesus’ saying in Matthew 22:30: “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven” (Mat 22:30 NKJV). This means angels are not sexual beings.
http://perspectives.adventist.org/e...06/why-is-the-book-of-enoch-not-in-the-bible/
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
Eh you realize genesis would contradict that as well correct? That could also be a misinterpretation of that verse. I’d think that ones that were married would remain married if they both entered heaven and the ones that weren’t wouldn’t need marriage anyway. Kinda just as it was in the beginning where if you weren’t married you spent your time serving God.
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hecatomb
Banned
I don't know what you are talking about, book of Enoch also mentions some angles that are only mentioned in that book, and never show up again anywhere else in the Bible. Also you can see how it keeps contradicting the Bible, http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/wherein-book-enoch-contradicts-bible
also if something is written it doesn't automatically mean its part of the Bible, cause anyone could just add anything. And how could the book of Enoch be removed from the Bible, if it was never part of it in the first place?
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
Rome decided what went in the Bible at the council. Again, take Jasher for instance. How can you have an entire book deemed non canon when the book that was compiled makes reference to it? I’d like to see the entire list of books that they picked and chose from. I found one awhile ago but even that seemed too small. You have to think what scriptures were the holy men of the time reading? Then you have the whole issue of Alexandria being burned down. It’d be easy to confirm things if you had other writings from the time to research but it seems like evidence was burned. No different than the push for digital books. They’ll be able to flip a switch and rewrite history at their own whim.
Bolivar687
Banned
Of course it isn't - this is an OT. It's stated in the OP you claim you found so inflaming. I'll answer your assertions and listen if you have anything to follow up on, but it might be better if you created a separate thread about what you dislike about Christianity so much.
Christians honor much of the Mosaic Law, while also heightening some of its standards, such as not being able to divorce for no reason. Frequent fasting was historically a tremendous part of Christianity until the 1960s, when, ironically, the Church tried to be more like the rest of the world. Faithful Christians of Apostolic faith who truly believe incorporate fasting into their life in many ways. Forgiveness is only easy because we in turn are expected to forgive easily - which is more difficult and even directly at odds with most of the man-made religions.
It's not a fairy tale - the Jews were told all the nations of the earth would worship their God, and Jesus Christ made that an irreversible fact of human history. If you think you need to turn off your brain to study the historical and thematic meaning of scripture, or to join your will to the sacrifice of the mass, or to bring Christ into the world, then I'm sorry but you're just not being honest with us here.
hecatomb
Banned
There has to be evidence that the book of enoch was actually part of the Bible, cause even the Bible mentions people will try to write fake scriptures and people did write fake scriptures, I think even Saint Peter knew people were doing it. Book of enoch mentions giants that are 450 feet tall, cause we know about cubits, and we have known about cubits for a while now. How could human women be giving birth to 450 foot tall giants is beyond me. Also other books in the Bible all follow the scriptures in order and explains a lot, book of enoch is almost completely different cause it doesn't follow the same pattern.
I also don't know why so many people want to think the book of enoch is really part of the Bible, when it keeps contradicting it.
Also angels most likely have no genitalia, cause it says they can not marry.
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
“There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.”
Genesis 6:4 NKJV
The deceivers were able to change their form and appear as human to seduce women so it wasn’t a giant having sex with women. It was either one that changed form or one that possessed another then a giant would be born. It’s written that at times women would die giving birth to them. And they wouldn’t be 450 feet tall at birth but still large enough to kill its surrogate.
hecatomb
Banned
I mean you can believe whatever you want, but theres no mention of 450 foot tall giants in the Bible, even cubits goliath I think was only around 8 feet tall, and thats pretty big. Back then a 8 foot tall man would have been a giant, we know about Robert Pershing Wadlow, was also 8 foot tall. But a race of giants? The philistines could have had tall men, that seemed like giants, but some of them were captured by egyptians, and showed they were around the same hight as them
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VAL0R
Banned
If this is the kind of deep probing wisdom we can expect from you with your entire atheist brain turned on, we certainly don't want you trying to turn off "the rest of [your] brain" like those dumb Christians, no. Even if you are, as you say, incapable of doing so (due to your tremendous intellect, no doubt), don't risk it! What a cutting critique of Christendom. Just, wow. Checkmate. Cancel Sunday services.
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
I mean you can believe whatever you want, but theres no mention of 450 foot tall giants in the Bible, even cubits goliath I think was only around 8 feet tall, and thats pretty big. Back then a 8 foot tall man would have been a giant, we know about Robert Pershing Wadlow, was also 8 foot tall. But a race of giants? The philistines could have had tall men, that seemed like giants, but some of them were captured by egyptians, and showed they were around the same hight as them
What about king Og? His bed was 13 feet long. You may want to look into the stories of native Americans and red haired giants. All fairly recent and all huge beings beyond 8 feet tall. Perhaps the scriptures that contained giants were hidden. There’s actually a book called the book of giants in the Dead Sea scrolls. Think Greek mythology. The cyclops, the colossus. Look at all of the Greek structures or old megaliths with HUGE doorways.
Anyway, I wonder if Adam and Eve were like this in their original form also
After he rose from the dead, his twelve disciples and seven women continued to be his followers, and went to Galilee onto the mountain called "Divination and Joy". When they gathered together and were perplexed about the underlying reality of the universe and the plan, and the holy providence, and the power of the authorities, and about everything the Savior is doing with them in the secret of the holy plan, the Savior appeared - not in his previous form, but in the invisible spirit. And his likeness resembles a great angel of light. But his resemblance I must not describe. No mortal flesh could endure it, but only pure, perfect flesh, like that which he taught us about on the mountain called "Of the Olives" in Galilee.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/sophia.html
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
Geez. I forgot how clear some of these writings are in distinguishing the Father from the Son. This is Christ speaking.
The Savior said: "He Who Is is ineffable. No principle knew him, no authority, no subjection, nor any creature from the foundation of the world until now, except he alone, and anyone to whom he wants to make revelation through him who is from First Light. From now on, I am the Great Savior. For he is immortal and eternal. Now he is eternal, having no birth; for everyone who has birth will perish. He is unbegotten, having no beginning; for everyone who has a beginning has an end. Since no one rules over him, he has no name; for whoever has a name is the creation of another."
(BG 84, 13-17 adds: He is unnameable. He has no human form; for whoever has human form is the creation of another).
"And he has a semblance of his own - not like what you have seen and received, but a strange semblance that surpasses all things and is better than the universe. It looks to every side and sees itself from itself. Since it is infinite, he is ever incomprehensible. He is imperishable and has no likeness (to anything). He is unchanging good. He is faultless. He is eternal. He is blessed. While he is not known, he ever knows himself. He is immeasurable. He is untraceable. He is perfect, having no defect. He is imperishability blessed. He is called 'Father of the Universe'".
The Savior said: "He Who Is is ineffable. No principle knew him, no authority, no subjection, nor any creature from the foundation of the world until now, except he alone, and anyone to whom he wants to make revelation through him who is from First Light. From now on, I am the Great Savior. For he is immortal and eternal. Now he is eternal, having no birth; for everyone who has birth will perish. He is unbegotten, having no beginning; for everyone who has a beginning has an end. Since no one rules over him, he has no name; for whoever has a name is the creation of another."
(BG 84, 13-17 adds: He is unnameable. He has no human form; for whoever has human form is the creation of another).
"And he has a semblance of his own - not like what you have seen and received, but a strange semblance that surpasses all things and is better than the universe. It looks to every side and sees itself from itself. Since it is infinite, he is ever incomprehensible. He is imperishable and has no likeness (to anything). He is unchanging good. He is faultless. He is eternal. He is blessed. While he is not known, he ever knows himself. He is immeasurable. He is untraceable. He is perfect, having no defect. He is imperishability blessed. He is called 'Father of the Universe'".
hecatomb
Banned
I don't remember anywhere were it mentions Adam and Eve as giants, if goliath was only 8 feet tall, it wouldn't make sense to call him a giant if Adam and Eve were taller then him. Also it mentions that Enoch was preaching from his mouth not from written texts, so someone else could have written the book of Enoch, not Enoch himself.What about king Og? His bed was 13 feet long. You may want to look into the stories of native Americans and red haired giants. All fairly recent and all huge beings beyond 8 feet tall. Perhaps the scriptures that contained giants were hidden. There’s actually a book called the book of giants in the Dead Sea scrolls. Think Greek mythology. The cyclops, the colossus. Look at all of the Greek structures or old megaliths with HUGE doorways.
Anyway, I wonder if Adam and Eve were like this in their original form also
After he rose from the dead, his twelve disciples and seven women continued to be his followers, and went to Galilee onto the mountain called "Divination and Joy". When they gathered together and were perplexed about the underlying reality of the universe and the plan, and the holy providence, and the power of the authorities, and about everything the Savior is doing with them in the secret of the holy plan, the Savior appeared - not in his previous form, but in the invisible spirit. And his likeness resembles a great angel of light. But his resemblance I must not describe. No mortal flesh could endure it, but only pure, perfect flesh, like that which he taught us about on the mountain called "Of the Olives" in Galilee.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/sophia.html
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
I wasn’t saying they were giants. I was referring to this
“The savior appeared not in his previous form but in the invisible spirit”
Oh and if Mary is the queen of heaven, then who’s this?
"Behold, I have revealed to you the name of the Perfect One, the whole will of the Mother of the Holy Angels, that the masculine multitude may be completed here, that there might appear in the aeons, the infinities and those that came to be in the untraceable wealth of the Great Invisible Spirit, that they all might take from his goodness, even the wealth of their rest that has no kingdom over it. I came from First Who Was Sent, that I might reveal to you Him Who Is from the Beginning, because of the arrogance of Arch-Begetter and his angels, since they say about themselves that they are gods.
hecatomb
Banned
I think you just want everything that is written to be part of the Bible. I mean I'm not priest and all, but maybe you should ask them, I mean I could do research all day, but I'm not getting paid for it, so its not really worth my time. Were as a priest can answer a lot more questions then I can.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Not necessary. What I’m noticing going through some of these texts is that there’s a clear distinction when it’s just written as commentary by men of the time and when it’s scriptural.
hecatomb
Banned
If you believe in the book of Enoch, it says sinners are going straight to hell, you your self said you look at porn, so by that you are going to hell. In the Bible it says Jesus forgives everyone who ask for forgiveness, so think about that. It just seems like you want to ask me 40 million questions, and there are people who do nothing but study the Bible, if thats what you want to do, I suggest you join the navigators.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
If I eventually reach repentance I should be fine. I used to watch porn multiple times a day. Now I fight myself not to. It’s a process 
I don’t think you have forgiveness until you fully leave a sin. Grace maybe to come out of the sin but the meaning of repentance is leaving sin completely. That’s how you truly follow Christ. Again that’s the message he always preached. He never told anyone to stay in sin.
I don’t think you have forgiveness until you fully leave a sin. Grace maybe to come out of the sin but the meaning of repentance is leaving sin completely. That’s how you truly follow Christ. Again that’s the message he always preached. He never told anyone to stay in sin.
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hecatomb
Banned
Yes but you still will goto hell, if you believe in The book Enoch. Which doesn't match what Jesus teachings at all. You really should join a Church Bible study group.If I eventually reach repentance I should be fine. I used to watch porn multiple times a day. Now I fight myself not to. It’s a process
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Eh? If I’m in full repentance then I’d no longer be a sinner and my past transgressions should be forgiven as my belief in Christ would have led me from sin and not myself alone.
Oh here’s another with the Holy Spirit being a she
A cup of milk was offered to me, and I drank it in the sweetness of the Lord's kindness.
The Son is the cup, and the Father is He who was milked; and the Holy Spirit is She who milked Him;
Because His breasts were full, and it was undesirable that His milk should be ineffectually released.
The Holy Spirit opened Her bosom, and mixed the milk of the two breasts of the Father.
Then She gave the mixture to the generation without their knowing, and those who have received it are in the perfection of the right hand.
The womb of the Virgin took it, and she received conception and gave birth.
So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies.
And she labored and bore the Son but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose.
And she did not require a midwife, because He caused her to give life.
She brought forth like a strong man with desire, and she bore according to the manifestation, and she acquired according to the Great Power.
And she loved with redemption, and guarded with kindness, and declared with grandeur.
Hallelujah.
Oh here’s another with the Holy Spirit being a she
A cup of milk was offered to me, and I drank it in the sweetness of the Lord's kindness.
The Son is the cup, and the Father is He who was milked; and the Holy Spirit is She who milked Him;
Because His breasts were full, and it was undesirable that His milk should be ineffectually released.
The Holy Spirit opened Her bosom, and mixed the milk of the two breasts of the Father.
Then She gave the mixture to the generation without their knowing, and those who have received it are in the perfection of the right hand.
The womb of the Virgin took it, and she received conception and gave birth.
So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies.
And she labored and bore the Son but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose.
And she did not require a midwife, because He caused her to give life.
She brought forth like a strong man with desire, and she bore according to the manifestation, and she acquired according to the Great Power.
And she loved with redemption, and guarded with kindness, and declared with grandeur.
Hallelujah.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Does anyone understand what he’s saying here?
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Hmmm was Christ made Christ when he was born or was Christ made Christ when he was baptized? 
All Hail C-Webb
Hailing from the Chill-Web
When you say that one religion is the best, I don't see how that's not inflammatory. I shouldn't have posted in the thread, had a couple drinks, but like you said, it's not an OT.
I wasn't singling out Christianity with the fairy tale comment though. I just don't understand how people can believe so much in something that not only can't be proved, but has many indications of being false.
I don't think that intelligence has anything to do with it. Someone I loved dearly was deeply religious, and they were far smarter, and better than me.
I believe that Christianity (like other religions) has great messages. It provides a guide to being a better person, teaches morals, creates great traditions, and can help people feel like they belong.
Anyway, sorry for the intrusion.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
-There are more than two genders
-moon landing
-the earth revolves around the sun
-the Big Bang theory
-the theory of evolution
Need I say more?
hecatomb
Banned
I mean I'm not going to change your mind clearly, and I don't feel like reading the book of enoch again, but there is a verse saying sinners are going straight to hell. It doesn't mention forgiveness, so if you sin you're going to hell. In the Bible it does however mention forgiveness. So you can keep believing in that book all you want I don't care.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Ok so let me ask you this. Can you freely sin up until the day you die as long as you believe in Christ?
hecatomb
Banned
Its mentioned in the Bible, you really should goto Bible study class.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Mind showing me where? And what would you make of this?
“For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings:”
Hebrews 10:26-29, 31-32 NKJV
hecatomb
Banned
Like I said its in the Bible, I'm just wondering why don't you goto church, they have Bible study classes that will answer your questions.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Nowhere in the Bible does it say we’re free to sin. Christ never taught sin. He taught repentance. I don’t go to church because I don’t agree with some of the doctrine.
hecatomb
Banned
You keep coming up with theories what you think is what the Bible says, you don't have a understand the message its sending. Its right there in the Bible why people sin, and how they are forgiven. And you refuse to goto church mostly cause you only want to believe in these theories of yours, which are btw incorrect. Im just going to put you on ignore list, cause you only want to believe in your theories, instead of what the Bible is teaching. I already said if you have 50 million questions or so, you clearly don't understand the Bible, and you should goto church.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
BYE 
Bolivar687
Banned
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AngularSaxophone
Banned
The Catholic Church is literally run by doctrine of demons. Quick to call someone a heretic when pedophelia is running rampant among your leaders. 
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the.acl
Member
The book of Enoch didn't make the cut in the Tanakh either (Jewish Bible; What we know as the Old Testament).
Interesting answer I found on Yahoo Questions
AngularSaxophone
Banned
“As for us, we have this large crowd of witnesses around us. So then, let us rid ourselves of everything that gets in the way, and of the sin which holds on to us so tightly, and let us run with determination the race that lies before us.”
Hebrews 12:1 GNTD
Hebrews 12:1 GNTD
VAL0R
Banned
Sent my four middle kids to Catholic school today for the first time (they were homeschooled). They are excited and it's going to be a nice break for my wife, an exhausted mom of seven (expecting number eight by Christmas). The school principal is committed to keeping and increasing the "Catholic identity" of the school. Lots of positive signs that the school takes the faith seriously. There is a private chapel upstairs where the students can adore Jesus in the Eucharist (and are expected to genuflect if they walk past), they attend Mass on Fridays and sing in the choir, etc. Before I left them today the principal led the entire school (minus K) in a very explicitly Catholic prayer.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
I watched these this evening. I find this channel very informative from what I’ve seen so far.
Thurible
Member
That's great, personally I went to catholic schools basically my whole life(except for university) and it really was a tight knit community. I made some good friends there and our schools always had prayer times and mass once a week. We were pretty open about talking about theology amd everything was pretty good. I felt like I could focus way more into the faith then, but when I went to my college I met some less than savory characters. I felt a tad stifled there and that I couldn't express myself fully with my faith (sometimes professors would say some controversial things and fellow students would be candid about sexual things). However, the local catholic ministry from the neuman club helped connect me to people and I had some people I could truly talk to, you know? Anyway, sorry for rambling on but I just want to say that's awesome and congradulations on your child that you expecting. If you don't mind me asking do you know the baby's gender?
VAL0R
Banned
Unfortunately I was still a Protestant in college and though my campus had a Neuman Center, I never participated. Instead I was involved with Intervarsity Christian Fellowship. IVCF seemed to be getting progressively worse while I was attending and in leadership and I'd guess they are even further gone today. I recall InterVarsity Press was publishing the works of open theism heretics (denying God's foreknowledge) at the time. The godfather of my children and my girlfriend (now wife) were in the group with me, so I have some great memories of friendship, but I brought those two with me, I didn't find them there. The three of us were almost misfits within the group, like the theological bulldogs and intellectual core (particularly the godfather of my kids), trying to keep the group from falling apart where it mattered. We were seen as far too zealous, too harsh, too serious, too whatever. IVCF was like Christianity-lite, doctrinally weak, weak on sin, and oddly jeuvenile-VeggieTaleserific at times, which I openly despised. I have nothing to do with them now and wouldn't support them financially (though I've been asked).
Our baby is a girl. I'm leaning toward the name Faustina (Faustina Joan(?)) after Saint Faustina Kowalska of Divine Mercy fame. My family joined the Church on Divine Mercy Sunday and all of my kids were baptized that day, so it has a special place in my heart. My wife isn't so sure about the name, haha. So we'll see.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
Is it true that the Vatican is built on top of the bones of a nephilim or rephaim?
appaws
Banned
That sounds great. I grew up in a big urban parish called St. Frances of Rome. We only had catechism once a week after morning mass on Thursdays. The school had a growing influx of non-Catholics in order to get the tuition money I guess, and had to continually strip away even the one day a week observances in order to avoid offending non-Catholics.
Monseigneur Howard was really, really old...like pre-V2 old, so the masses were respectful and properly conducted, at least at first. But there was a group of new young priests coming up, and over time as the old Monseigneur slowed down and got sick, abuses started to creep in. I remember the guitar masses at first, then they built a "chapel" that looked like a protestant meeting room and started having masses there instead of the beautiful old turn of the century church. The craziest thing I remember is a mass with the theme "God is Sweet" and they used pieces of cinnamon cookies for the host.
Also, let me just congratulate you on your big family. That is absolutely amazing. You are very blessed.
Thurible
Member
No. Sax where exactly are you getting this stuff?
Thurible
Member
What? That's sacriledge! Sorry things got so messed up man. Why would anyone think using cookies in place of the holy Eucharist! That's supposed to be the body of Christ! Also God is sweet? What does that mean?
Luckily for me the most "messed" up mass I've been to is a polka mass (I'm a wisconsinite). Nothing was really wrong its just that I thought polka dance music has no place in a church.
Never happened to me, but I heard from a few older people that there were clown masses back in the day. Like the priest would dress up as a clown or something. I hope I misheard.
appaws
Banned
Yeah, it was pretty messed up. I didn't really know that at the time as a 5th grader. And this was an old and pretty pious community...if they had tried something like that at an actual Sunday mass, there would have been a revolt. So, they did it with school kids who didn't know any better.
I remember when they built the chapel and introduced the guitar mass, with some hippy guy singing terrible 1970s feel good hymns, and young priests up there busting jokes and talking about the Cubs or Bears during homilies. At first they just offered it as an alternative to the regular mass, but over time, especially after the old monseigneur went to his rest, they pushed the traditional (still N.O., but conducted reverently at least) masses toward early morning times. Older people who are up at the crack of dawn anyway didn't mind. The innovation was happening across the street in the chapel at the more popular times, 10 and 11 am.
LOL. Cheeseheads. Go Bears!
No, you didn't mishear. I've seen pictures of that.
AngularSaxophone
Banned
I have my sources. Not the internet. But stuff is on the internet. Like why is all this weird stuff in the basement? They destroyed temples in South America yet house all this strange stuff right under the property.
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VAL0R
Banned
The cookies are a sacrilege and an outrage. Sorry you had to go through that time of spiritual poverty from your leadership. I'm glad you survived and made it through with your faith intact.
Thanks for the compliments. I really do feel incredibly blessed with my wife and kids!
AngularSaxophone
Banned
I have a question. In revelation, 7 churches are represented by 7 angels. Which of these angels represents the Catholic Church?
hecatomb
Banned
True believers who actually know about the Bible will just know the Book is blasphemy. It was written, fake scriptures will try to confuse people. Thats why its best to study the Bible and study with people who have for years. And not just come up with your own assumptions.
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