Support NeoGAF

[Topher]

How many was that? Was it 6 million added after that?

I believe the number grew to 34 million. The number reported prior to that was never higher than 25 million.

 

[mckmas8808]

I believe the number grew to 34 million. The number reported prior to that was never higher than 25 million.

Adding a fake 9 million overnight is nuts lol

 

[poppabk]

PS. In all the Netflix discussion, I forgot to ask - what do you mean by that?

With all these subscriptions there is a phase where you spend a ton of money trying to pull in new customers - giving out free trials, low priced subscriptions, while simultaneously investing heavily in content.
At a certain point you have both - enough subscribers to cover reasonable costs and most of your subcribers are 'sticky'. They have been paying and using the service for years. At that point you start closing off low cost access, close loopholes, and can start increasing prices while maintaining or pulling back on the amount you are spending on new content.
I dont think gamepass had reached that point but MS decided to flip the switch anyway. They have had a great run of content recently - but I can see myself canceling if they have a dry spell. Not like I dont have a 600 odd game library spread across Steam, Epic, GoG etc.

 

[KungFucius]

What the actual fuck is he talking about in this word salad mess? It literally gave me a headache reading it because it's so convoluted.

Drink and smoke a little. I read it as, Gamepass doesn't lose money, but now they they can also sell on PS5/Switch2 they are gonna make some real money off those non PC owning, weirdos.

 

[AlphaDump]

I believe the number grew to 34 million. The number reported prior to that was never higher than 25 million.

Which tiers are we talking? This gamepass conversation is somewhat meaningless with that context, and is actually doing a lot of marketing for Microsoft.

A casual reader would have no idea they even exist. Im sorry but enough is enough.

 

[Pimpbaa]

1.Gamepass
2.???
3.Profit

 

[Topher]

Which tiers are we talking? This gamepass conversation is somewhat meaningless with that context, and is actually doing a lot of marketing for Microsoft.

A casual reader would have no idea they even exist. Im sorry but enough is enough.

Enough is enough? No idea what you are talking about. Follow the conversation and it is clear…

GP grew a ton when Xbox Live was renamed to GP Core.

 

[AlphaDump]

Enough is enough? No idea what you are talking about. Follow the conversation and it is clear…

My bad Topher. Im just tired of how inherently misleading and disingenuous Microsoft is about everything.

 

[Topher]

My bad Topher. Im just tired of how inherently misleading and disingenuous Microsoft is about everything.

I hear ya man

 

[Three]

I believe the service, as per Microsoft own calculations, is profitable.

I mean, people here want them to factor first party dev costs, but I don't think it should work that way from a business perspective.

What really matters is if first party games weren't at the service, people would still sign up to it, and if the gamepass revenue is enough to justify cannibalizing some (or most, like some folks here like to see) revenue from first party studios.

People here have conjectured that the revenue from studios is severely handicapped by the gamepass lending some of those games to the service, and if gamepass had to pay to first party studios like they pay to third parties, the service wouldn't be profitable. Some here even think that if the studios were payed in a "fair" way, gamepass wouldn't exist or some canceled games or closed studios could have a different fate.

I have another view about it. I think that, without the service, Xbox Series would be as dead as WiiU. So, it wouldn't matter if the split is fair or not, if the people aren't invested in your platform, it will eventually die. Simple as that. Maybe the Xbox and studios management aren't good enough to put good titles in a consistent way that only games are enough to keep the platform afloat. And that is a management problem, not gamepass one. Maybe gamepass and a gigantic publisher acquisition are the only way that Phill and co. could come up to keep the platform alive. I also have saw other hardware manufacturers step out of the market and none of them dare to go back in the industry to fight against the giants again and that is why I believe that isn't viable to just call Xbox a day, reorganize, and lauch again in another time. So that's why they would try everything in order to keep Xbox alive.

So, in the end, it simply isn't productive to discuss if a service is profitable or not, or in what metrics, when the very same company havr stated that it is, no matter who have said. That is, unless, some have presented proof that the stated isn't true.

In the end, the very service most of you here have accused of being the defeat of the platform, could be the very thing that is keeping your beloved Xbox afloat till now.

I think the first party budgets are no longer handicapped simply from the change in strategy to release on other platforms like PS. This strategy seems to have come from a major u-turn after gamepass did not achieve the target growth that they estimated even after those acquisitions. They estimated far more subscribers and expected to be able to cover the development cost of those games from gamepass users alone. Remember the old "deliver exclusive games on platforms where gamepass is available"? That didn't pan out. They pivoted and released everywhere and are now doing OK because they are less reliant on their own platforms (gamepass or xbox) to keep those first party studios in the black.

 

[Klayzer]

I don't know. Maybe ask a fan of games/franchises developed by Rare, Arkane, Tango Gameworks, Alpha Dog, Turn 10, The Initiative......

No profits, no games. Super fucking simple.

 

[Cakeboxer]

Consumers who are considering investing hundreds or thousands more into an ecosystem that may or may not exists ten years from now.

The same reason why Microsoft is so desperately trying to convince people its doing great, yet refuses to give actual data.

Xbox is dead and everybody knows it, the ecosystem to invest in and benefit from Game Pass is the pc. You can't even buy a Series X in many stores in Europe anymore and for the rrp it's even harder to find. Nobody in his right midn would invest in Xbox at this point.

 

[Heisenberg007]

This is so stupid lol.

Imagine a product that increases its loses with each new unit sold / subscriber gained. So the more it grows in numbers, the bigger the loss is. (Sidebar Example: One my local electric company is like this. Their loss increases with each unit provided because of electricity theft and line losses, so they do a lot of power cuts every day, and try to get their profits by reducing variable cost and relying on fixed revenue sources)

And then to call 'growth' the only metric that matters - and not profitability.

Absolute dogshit stupid take.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Xbox is dead and everybody knows it, the ecosystem to invest in and benefit from Game Pass is the pc. You can't even buy a Series X in many stores in Europe anymore and for the rrp it's even harder to find. Nobody in his right midn would invest in Xbox at this point.

TBH, that's the only thing that makes a little bit of sense, because GP PC is also quite cheaper.

Assuming you already have a PC, sub for a month or two when a big game drops, play it, and drop the sub. You can do that as long as GP PC exists at a good monthly rate.

But if anyone is spending money to get a new Xbox console at this stage, paying for XBLG (GP Core) or GPU or (God forbid!) buying digital games for the Xbox console at this point ... that's financially stupid (to put it in very mild terms).

 

[Cakeboxer]

TBH, that's the only thing that makes a little bit of sense, because GP PC is also quite cheaper.

Assuming you already have a PC, sub for a month or two when a big game drops, play it, and drop the sub. You can do that as long as GP PC exists at a good monthly rate.

But if anyone is spending money to get a new Xbox console at this stage, paying for XBLG (GP Core) or GPU or (God forbid!) buying digital games for the Xbox console at this point ... that's financially stupid (to put it in very mild terms).

Microsoft won't drop GP overnight, they still allow you to stack more than 30 months so i think it would make more sense to stack GPU for ~7 Euro/month with the core or EA Play conversion trick. Thats' not even a burger.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Why would any consumer give a shit whether its profitable or not?

I'll keep milkin that tit until its dry.


Does anyone give a shit whether Epic game store free games are profitable?

This, so much. I cant believe we are getting so many complaints about something that is obviously such a clear win for consumers.

 

[Karim]

Why would any consumer give a shit whether its profitable or not?

I'll keep milkin that tit until its dry.


Does anyone give a shit whether Epic game store free games are profitable?

 

[DenchDeckard]

Clarify?

 

[Astray]

>.. Even when you factor in the lost sales..
>.. Even when..

Meaning that they currently don't, and my hypothesis on how 1P studios get fucked over by the Xbox management team to make Gamepass look profitable is correct.

Dring just basically confirmed what we thought in the other thread, but made it look like he didn't because he's a cuck who fears Twitter angry replies.

How can they even calculate the cost of gamepass? I'd be interested to see how they get that number. Does the Acti acquisition count toward it?

They count costs of 3P acquisition (e.g. money paid to Sandfall for E33 day 1) and a few other costs like bandwidth, marketing etc.

The singular biggest cost though is the "licensing" of 1P and the cannibalization it causes to their 1P sales, and that is completely absent in their accounting, and even when it is, they don't actually "pay" that amount to the Studios to make their individual P/L whole again. No, they just replace millions in launch sales with GP pennies and then act like the studios are loss-making and need to close asap

Retarded management.

 

[Karim]

Clarify?

I reverse the question. Why a consumer shouldn't care if a service it's not profitable?

 

[DenchDeckard]

>.. Even when you factor in the lost sales..
>.. Even when..

Meaning that they currently don't, and my hypothesis on how 1P studios get fucked over by the Xbox management team to make Gamepass look profitable is correct.

Dring just basically confirmed what we thought in the other thread, but made it look like he didn't because he's a cuck who fears Twitter angry replies.


They count costs of 3P acquisition (e.g. money paid to Sandfall for E33 day 1) and a few other costs like bandwidth, marketing etc.

The singular biggest cost though is the "licensing" of 1P and the cannibalization it causes to their 1P sales, and that is completely absent in their accounting, and even when it is, they don't actually "pay" that amount to the Studios to make their individual P/L whole again. No, they just replace millions in launch sales with GP pennies and then act like the studios are loss-making and need to close asap

Retarded management.

This is a statement from someone who doesnt work from MS, you can't extrapolate anything from the wording this person uses.

Why a consumer shouldn't care if it's not profitable?

Yeah, absolutely. I don't think ive once been concerned on if Netflix or Disney + makes money and is profitable. It's a service I pay for, not mine or anyones outside of those directly working at MS and the businesses that could be affected.

If im a third party dev and I am being paid what I agreed to be on gamepass. They shouldnt worry either.

 

[Karim]

This is a statement from someone who doesnt work from MS, you can't extrapolate anything from the wording this person uses.



Yeah, absolutely. I don't think ive once been concerned on if Netflix or Disney + makes money and is profitable. It's a service I pay for, not mine or anyones outside of those directly working at MS and the businesses that could be affected.

If im a third party dev and I am being paid what I agreed to be on gamepass. They shouldnt worry either.

Why not? It can affect the cost and a consumer should care about it. The hell of ignorant idiocy is such attitude. Furthermore if Gamepass was a success surely you won't see all the shitness it's happening around the xbox. They can say whatever they want but even IF profitable in what measure? They are so vague and their strategies suggested they blatantly lies in some way.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Why not? It can affect the cost and a consumer should care about it. The hell of ignorant idiocy is such attitude. Furthermore if Gamepass was a success surely you won't see all the shitness it's happening around the xbox. They can say whatever they want but even IF profitable in what measure? They are so vague and their strategies suggested the blatantly lies.

I don't think I understand. Surely, as a consumer, you should care about what something costs. If it goes up in price, it goes up in price and you decide if you want to pay that premium for what the service provides?

Why would I care about anything else?

 

[Karim]

I don't think I understand. Surely, as a consumer, you should care about what something costs. If it goes up in price, it goes up in price and you decide if you want to pay that premium for what the service provides?

Why would I care about anything else?

Define anything else. Why people care if xbox sell or software sell? Isn't it the same logic? We shouldn't care because it hurts too much? Because I suspect so.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I reverse the question. Why a consumer shouldn't care if a service it's not profitable?

Define anything else.

Because there are so many intricate details that a business thinks about when looking at a service. It took years for Netflix to be profitable. What was Netfilx's goal? to cement itself as the most known streaming service available.

What was Netflix's business plan? what is microsofts - Is it a 20 year roadmap and plan? Why would I spend anytime worrying or being concerned about their profitability right now or in the future? I have enough stuff in my own life to think about. I am not going to worry about some companies service that does nothing more than provide me entertainment.

Now, if this service was such an amazing deal and it was for something like my medical expenses, including medication...then I might understand. But, for anything else.....it seems completely crazy to me.

Do you subscribe to GamePass, and you are worried the service might go away if it is not profitable?

 

[Karim]

Because there are so many intricate details that a business thinks about when looking at a service. It took years for Netflix to be profitable. What was Netfilx's goal? to cement itself as the most known streaming service available.

What was Netflix's business plan? what is microsofts - Is it a 20 year roadmap and plan? Why would I spend anytime worrying or being concerned about their profitability right now or in the future? I have enough stuff in my own life to think about. I am not going to worry about some companies service that does nothing more than provide me entertainment.

Now, if this service was such an amazing deal and it was for something like my medical expenses, including medication...then I might understand. But, for anything else.....it seems completely crazy to me.

Do you subscribe to GamePass, and you are worried the service might go away if it is not profitable?

Netflix is not gamepass. Still I don't follow your logic. It surely will affect your life of consumer if gamepass not provide profit to the company as if a game a bomb. If you won't care, sure whatever, but try to convince the other to not care for what reasons exactly?

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

You absolute tools who were 100% sure he was factually correct about this yesterday need to get a grip. 90% of the people in here buy into everything.

As long as it's anti-Xbox anyway

Damn, GamePass is dead #8,338 was so close to happening.

 

[Karim]

As long as it's anti-Xbox anyway

Damn, GamePass is dead #8,338 was so close to happening.

Wow. People still believe to what MS said about the matter. I mean he practically reported what they said to tell without any details. Why to be always so vague about the entity of the profit/costs about Gamepass I'm asking.

 

[PropellerEar]

I don't think I understand. Surely, as a consumer, you should care about what something costs. If it goes up in price, it goes up in price and you decide if you want to pay that premium for what the service provides?

Why would I care about anything else?

Lets take something like Lukoil, there are hundreds of gas stations in EU that sell Lukoil fuel or are some kind of subsidiary of Lukoil.
Is it cheaper? Probably.
Is it funding Putin? Probably.
MSFT as bad as Putin?

Should i care as a customer?

 

[Karim]

Lets take something like Lukoil, there are hundreds of gas stations in EU that sell Lukoil fuel or are some kind of subsidiary of Lukoil.
Is it cheaper? Probably.
Is it funding Putin? Probably.
MSFT as bad as Putin?

Should i care as a customer?

You should but you are not forced to anyone. Said that people are free to live in the ignorance. But it's not like they are the smarter ones eh.

 

[Baemono]

As long as it's anti-Xbox anyway

Damn, GamePass is dead #8,338 was so close to happening.

It's dead alright, Dring was just told it was in the coma, and then clarified there is still a beep so it's technically still alive, despite the family preparing documentation to give organs to others

 

[violence]

They are not going to include a World of Warcraft sub into gamepass. We know why.

 

[PropellerEar]

Gamepass is like a huge moster Godzilla sized leech, sucking the lifeblood of the 1st party Studios.

- Don't do anything about the leech is so nice and big, very productive parasite that we all love and cherish.

- Instead these lazy and unproductive Studios should produce more lifeblood to make this grand leech even bigger and more profitable!

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

It's dead alright, Dring was just told it was in the coma, and then clarified there is still a beep so it's technically still alive, despite the family preparing documentation to give organs to others

#8,339 in motion I see

 

[foamdino]

The whole "why should I care" question is interesting. As an individual (not an investor) consumer - I get why people would think this, after all it's "consumer friendly" to get access to games "cheap".

The problem comes from when your cheap access to games leads to damaging the industry to the point where no new good games are being created.

• MS said on record that gamepass cannibalises sales -> less sales == less $$ for studio == more chance that the studio folds/is shuttered
• Gamepass allocates $$ to studios based on "engagement"/hours played == perversely incentivising dark UX patterns, crappier games
• The idea was pushed that gamepass would allow studios to be more creative as they wouldn't be worried about the standard publishing pattern (which let's be clear is in need of a shake up as too many studios are 1 flop away from going under) - however this has not proven to be the case at all, the same types of games are being pushed via gamepass as used to be via sales (open world, awful souls-likes <grr hate those>, standard fps shooters etc) - where is all the extra creativity we were all told would come about??
• We've also seen that games as a whole simply do not sell on xbox - you would expect the sales to mirror the ratio of console sales, but in some cases games sell a fraction of a percent compared to on playstation - so the xbox consumer doesn't consume

In a capitalist society, this model of a studio *giving away* their product to consumers and actively training consumers to never buy any products *and to actively complain that a product wasn't given away* - just doesn't work.

There is enough evidence to suggest that the plan was to try and get Sony/Nintendo to try the same idea, knowing that MS could outspend/sustain this model and drive the other into bankruptcy.

At that point - "why should I care" - well Microsoft would have salted the earth to gain control of the games industry while doing immeasurable cultural damage - that's why anyone interested in games as a hobby should care.

GamePass plays on short-term desires while trying to hide the long-term consequences.

This isn't to say that Nintendo ($80 games), or Sony (GAAS stupidity) are not also idiots this gen.

 

[Baemono]

#8,339 in motion I see

No, that's the number of the Microsoft PR stunt that will bite them in the ass, like they always do. I still can't believe you fall for it like "well if they said it, it means it's true, they're not gonna lie"

 

[PropellerEar]

No, that's the number of the Microsoft PR stunt that will bite them in the ass, like they always do. I still can't believe you fall for it like "well if they said it, it means it's true, they're not gonna lie"

not even as big as number of people affected by the most recent layoff.

 

[jm89]

 

[GHG]

So what happens if the game doesn't manage to sell any copies and/or a reasonable amount of DLC microtransactions?

 

[adamsapple]

So what happens if the game doesn't manage to sell any copies and/or a reasonable amount of DLC microtransactions?

The highest selling game of last year was propelled by Game Pass tho.

 

[GHG]

The highest selling game of last year was propelled by Game Pass tho.

"propelled"?

It's the highest selling game every year.

 

[adamsapple]

"propelled"?

It's the highest selling game every year.

It remained so and Game Pass remains profitable even accounting for the possibility of any lost revenue.

 

[GHG]

It remained so and Game Pass remains profitable even accounting for the possibility of any lost revenue.

Well I'm glad COD can continue to survive under this model.

Shame about the rest.

 

[adamsapple]

Well I'm glad COD can continue to survive under this model.

Shame about the rest.

Well ... most of their stuff is multi-plat anyway so our blue and red brethren will contribute for the cause too.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Netflix is not gamepass. Still I don't follow your logic. It surely will affect your life of consumer if gamepass not provide profit to the company as if a game a bomb. If you won't care, sure whatever, but try to convince the other to not care for what reasons exactly?

Netflix is an entertainment streaming service that allows users to watch content. its the closest adjacent entertainment subscription service we have to compare to Gamepass in my opinion.

Lets take something like Lukoil, there are hundreds of gas stations in EU that sell Lukoil fuel or are some kind of subsidiary of Lukoil.
Is it cheaper? Probably.
Is it funding Putin? Probably.
MSFT as bad as Putin?

Should i care as a customer?

This is a wild comparison. I don't even know where to begin, and its definitely not something im going to be share on Gaf, where we try to avoid politics.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

It remained so and Game Pass remains profitable even accounting for the possibility of any lost revenue.

You see thousands of people getting sacked for those absolute clowns such as Matt booty, Phil Spencer a win?

 

[adamsapple]

You see thousands of people getting sacked for those absolute clowns such as Matt booty, Phil Spencer a win?

You think those people got sacked because of CoD or Game Pass?

 

[Kenneth Haight]

You think those people got sacked because of CoD or Game Pass?

I think Microsoft buying them and then saying we are all one big happy family, mergers are great, we are the winning team etc etc. we are going to invest in these people is all bollocks.

The long and short is that this deal has been a shit show and people still championing it like yourself is embarrassing even if you're doing it ironically.

Xbox are an absolute embarrasment this generation.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

No, that's the number of the Microsoft PR stunt that will bite them in the ass, like they always do. I still can't believe you fall for it like "well if they said it, it means it's true, they're not gonna lie"

I'm not falling for anything, I couldn't care less if Microsoft profits from GamePass. I'm just quoting the other guy and agreeing with him about the sheep mentality people have here about this subject.

Good luck on trial #8,339 though.

 

[adamsapple]

I think Microsoft buying them and then saying we are all one big happy family, mergers are great, we are the winning team etc etc. we are going to invest in these people is all bollocks.

The long and short is that this deal has been a shit show and people still championing it like yourself is embarrassing even if you're doing it ironically.

Xbox are an absolute embarrasment this generation.

There's already way too many threads with the same talking points, it's kinda irrelevant to this topic imo. And, no, I don't think CoD or GP were responsible for these recent layoffs.

Everwild and Perfect Dark were projects in development for about the better parts of a decade with nothing to show, things like that area probably easier check-boxes to mark off when talking about cutting costs. Neither of them came out and had a chance to make any impact on GP anyway.