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[Baemono]

I'm not falling for anything, I couldn't care less if Microsoft profits from GamePass. I'm just quoting the other guy and agreeing with him about the sheep mentality people have here about this subject.

Good luck on trial #8,339 though.

Fair enough

 

[Kenneth Haight]

There's already way too many threads with the same talking points, it's kinda irrelevant to this topic imo. And, no, I don't think CoD or GP were responsible for these recent layoffs.

Everwild and Perfect Dark were projects in development for about the better parts of a decade with nothing to show, things like that area probably easier check-boxes to mark off when talking about cutting costs. Neither of them came out and had a chance to make any impact on GP anyway.

It is all relevant. Gamepass is the death of good games from Xbox, it is unsustainable no matter what way they try and pretty up the accounts. If they were not part of MS they would be long gone. You're basically admitting that they couldn't manage the studios they already had and then thought it was a great idea to buy a dozen more and think they would all of a sudden get good at it

 

[adamsapple]

It is all relevant. Gamepass is the death of good games from Xbox, it is unsustainable no matter what way they try and pretty up the accounts. If they were not part of MS they would be long gone. You're basically admitting that they couldn't manage the studios they already had and then thought it was a great idea to buy a dozen more and think they would all of a sudden get good at it

 

[PropellerEar]

Netflix is an entertainment streaming service that allows users to watch content. its the closest adjacent entertainment subscription service we have to compare to Gamepass in my opinion.


This is a wild comparison. I don't even know where to begin, and its definitely not something im going to be share on Gaf, where we try to avoid politics.

So you're saying ignorance is working for you, you're just a coooomsumer.
You don't care of ethics, where money is going, what will happen to the industry that keeps your hobby thriving.

There is no politics in that reply, but few questions that might be interesting for a customer as things to consider before just looking at the price. But such obvious thing for you to understand with your coooomsumer brain is impossible?

 

[DenchDeckard]

So you're saying ignorance is working for you, you're just a coooomsumer.
You don't care of ethics, where money is going, what will happen to the industry that keeps your hobby thriving.

There is no politics in that reply, but few questions that might be interesting for a customer as things to consider before just looking at the price. But such obvious thing for you to understand with your coooomsumer brain is impossible?

I feel honoured, thanks for blocking me.

So, according to you. You want me to spend my already stressful days dealing with life in 2025, to share more mindshare worrying about if the entertainment I spend my money on is ethically correct when these businesses are all reporting record revenue and profits? I should worry about the manufacturing of our devices and how unethical they are on the eastern employees manufacturing them?

I imagine you don't own any gaming hardware / consoles? instead you spend your time playing with sticks you whittle yourself.

Where does this end with you? do you own an Xbox or PS5? Seems like you are completely missing anything I am saying.

Do you demand the P&L for all the titles you buy, individual P&L to ensure each studio is being managed effectively and ethically?

TBH, i'm quite happy you've blocked me.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Also, PropellerEar how do you sleep at night knowing you have done this!!!!!

I used to buy tax-free PSN credits from Åland for stacking Finnish PS+ sub.(Was possible at one point)

The fucking ETHICS!

 

[jm89]

I feel honoured, thanks for blocking me.

So, according to you. You want me to spend my already stressful days dealing with life in 2025, to share more mindshare worrying about if the entertainment I spend my money on is ethically correct when these businesses are all reporting record revenue and profits? I should worry about the manufacturing of our devices and how unethical they are on the eastern employees manufacturing them?

Then you shouldn't worry abut people refunding gamepass then?

 

[foamdino]

So this is a good x thread that encapsulates some of the issues with gamepass (and other problems in the game industry at the moment)

 

[DenchDeckard]

Then you shouldn't worry abut people refunding gamepass then?

That's how hypocritical these people are. I have to log in here and hear about how unsustainable Gamepass is because its too good to be true. How anyone who supports these services is destroying gaming and then you have people refunding gamepass and whatever little hacks they are doing to game the system.

You couldn't make it up. Thats why its best to just think fuck it. Theres lunatics everywhere.

 

[mayham2199]

So this is a good x thread that encapsulates some of the issues with gamepass (and other problems in the game industry at the moment)

Agreed with him on the demand issue to an extent but I would say it's more of an oversupply issue. There's just to much to play honestly. It's why I think even MS realizes they need to shrink down and focus on their big titles because there is just to much to play and not enough players.

 

[DenchDeckard]

So this is a good x thread that encapsulates some of the issues with gamepass (and other problems in the game industry at the moment)

Just read all of this. Extremely interesting and I think they are kind of on the money about all of it.

 

[Punished Miku]

That's how hypocritical these people are. I have to log in here and hear about how unsustainable Gamepass is because its too good to be true. How anyone who supports these services is destroying gaming and then you have people refunding gamepass and whatever little hacks they are doing to game the system.

You couldn't make it up. Thats why its best to just think fuck it. Theres lunatics everywhere.

Never forget that you're connected through the internet to many extremeeeeeee losers you would never talk to in person.

 

[Det]

More rhetoric

Now the metric is as follows:

Game Pass covers the loss in projected sales (we choose how much we would sell and how much we lost) and therefore makes a profit.

We still don't include the production costs of day one games.

 

[Det]

That's how hypocritical these people are. I have to log in here and hear about how unsustainable Gamepass is because its too good to be true. How anyone who supports these services is destroying gaming and then you have people refunding gamepass and whatever little hacks they are doing to game the system.

You couldn't make it up. Thats why its best to just think fuck it. Theres lunatics everywhere.

And where does this not fall under the service's unsustainability?
Obviously, if it's easy to request a refund and people have reasons for doing so, it's the service's fault.

In Xbox communities, the biggest topic is how to scam and get GamePass for almost free.

If those who like the service are always cheating to pay almost nothing, why would those who don't like the service pay?

Stop playing the victim, the ones who discovered the Game Pass flaws were the service's fans, the service's "evangelists."
MS also purposefully put these flaws in the service to maximize its growth.

 

[Bernardougf]

The whole "why should I care" question is interesting. As an individual (not an investor) consumer - I get why people would think this, after all it's "consumer friendly" to get access to games "cheap".

The problem comes from when your cheap access to games leads to damaging the industry to the point where no new good games are being created.

• MS said on record that gamepass cannibalises sales -> less sales == less $$ for studio == more chance that the studio folds/is shuttered
• Gamepass allocates $$ to studios based on "engagement"/hours played == perversely incentivising dark UX patterns, crappier games
• The idea was pushed that gamepass would allow studios to be more creative as they wouldn't be worried about the standard publishing pattern (which let's be clear is in need of a shake up as too many studios are 1 flop away from going under) - however this has not proven to be the case at all, the same types of games are being pushed via gamepass as used to be via sales (open world, awful souls-likes <grr hate those>, standard fps shooters etc) - where is all the extra creativity we were all told would come about??
• We've also seen that games as a whole simply do not sell on xbox - you would expect the sales to mirror the ratio of console sales, but in some cases games sell a fraction of a percent compared to on playstation - so the xbox consumer doesn't consume

In a capitalist society, this model of a studio *giving away* their product to consumers and actively training consumers to never buy any products *and to actively complain that a product wasn't given away* - just doesn't work.

There is enough evidence to suggest that the plan was to try and get Sony/Nintendo to try the same idea, knowing that MS could outspend/sustain this model and drive the other into bankruptcy.

At that point - "why should I care" - well Microsoft would have salted the earth to gain control of the games industry while doing immeasurable cultural damage - that's why anyone interested in games as a hobby should care.

GamePass plays on short-term desires while trying to hide the long-term consequences.

This isn't to say that Nintendo ($80 games), or Sony (GAAS stupidity) are not also idiots this gen.

Consumer: why should I care about cheap unsustainable products ??
Also the Consumer: Omg xbox is gone! Whyyyyyy ???

 

[The Mad Draklor]

Consumer: why should I care about cheap unsustainable products ??
Also the Consumer: Omg xbox is gone! Whyyyyyy ???

Choosing instant gratification over practicing delayed gratification in a nutshell.

 

[marquimvfs]

It sounds like you are describing a house made out of cards then, to be perfectly honest. If the majority of Xbox gamers are mainly there due to GamePass, then that house of cards will eventually fall. It's like planting seeds for flowers in a bed full of rocks, instead of fine soil.

Well, it's an hypothesis that sound about right, given the state of Xbox division and the statement about Gamepass itself. It it were hurting more than helping Xbox to stay afloat, do you think that Microsoft would keep it just to feed Phill's ego? I think that they would kill it with fire, just like any of the recently closed studios/projects.

 

[marquimvfs]

budgets are no longer handicapped simply from the change in strategy to release on other platforms like PS. This strategy seems to have come from a major u-turn after gamepass did not achieve the target growth that they estimated even after those acquisitions.

I get what you're saying, and I agree with most of it. What I just can't agree is the fact that they changed their strategy of launching across all platforms solely based on gamepass income. To me, they always treated things apart internally. I mean, if studios are failing to reach a given income (budgets are defined differently), gamepass wasn't being considered in the calculations at any time. They never expected to transfer gamepass money to internal studios, it just doesn't make any sense to them. It's like getting money from Microsoft teams and giving that to windows because one is running on the other.

 

[marquimvfs]

So what happens if the game doesn't manage to sell any copies and/or a reasonable amount of DLC microtransactions?

Then, it probably means that it wouldn't sell without gamepass either.

The highest selling game of last year was propelled by Game Pass tho.

This. Whatever have the chance to sell well, will sell well, despite gamepass.

 

[powder]

Sounds like someone got a spanking from Microsoft PR

 

[Three]

I get what you're saying, and I agree with most of it. What I just can't agree is the fact that the changed they strategy of launching across all platforms solely based on gamepass income. To me, they always treated things apart internally. I mean, if studios are failing to reach a given income (budgets are defined differently), gamepass wasn't being considered in the calculations at any time. They never expected to transfer gamepass money to internal studios, it just doesn't make any sense to them. It's like getting money from Microsoft teams and giving that to windows because one is running on the other.

Well they transferred $70B from windows and azure to xbox, what make you think they didn't expect to fund their xbox studios from gamepass?

Gamepass subscriber income was meant to sustain the strategy that games "were exclusive to platforms where gamepass is available."

Remember this

Phil Spencer : "If you're an Xbox customer, the thing I want you to know is that this is about delivering great exclusive games for you that ship on platforms where Game Pass exists,"



This strategy was contingent on their projections for gamepass:

https://static1.thegamerimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/xbox-ftc-game-pass-prediction.jpg

They didn't hit anywhere near their projections for gamepass though. Gamepass income alone with those low subscriber numbers could not sustain the studios they had bought with the "exclusive gamepass platform strategy" that they previously had in 2021.

It was so bad that they had to merge xbox Live and still didn't hit these estimates. Their strategy changed completely to releasing pretty much all games on other platforms to make up for the income that the subscribers were not providing. It was a U-turn.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

That's how hypocritical these people are. I have to log in here and hear about how unsustainable Gamepass is because its too good to be true. How anyone who supports these services is destroying gaming and then you have people refunding gamepass and whatever little hacks they are doing to game the system.

You couldn't make it up. Thats why its best to just think fuck it. Theres lunatics everywhere.

 

[Donald mac Ronald]

Well they transferred $70B from windows and azure to xbox, what make you think they didn't expect to fund their xbox studios from gamepass?

Gamepass subscriber income was meant to sustain the strategy that games "were exclusive to platforms where gamepass is available."

Remember this

Phil Spencer : "If you're an Xbox customer, the thing I want you to know is that this is about delivering great exclusive games for you that ship on platforms where Game Pass exists,"



This strategy was contingent on their projections for gamepass:

https://static1.thegamerimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/xbox-ftc-game-pass-prediction.jpg

They didn't hit anywhere near their projections for gamepass though. Gamepass income alone with those low subscriber numbers could not sustain the studios they had bought with the "exclusive gamepass platform strategy" that they previously had in 2021.

It was so bad that they had to merge xbox Live and still didn't hit these estimates. Their strategy changed completely to releasing pretty much all games on other platforms to make up for the income that the subscribers were not providing. It was a U-turn.

Who would have thought. The new subscription service they came out with (gp) only reached the amount of Xboxes sold or to the equivalent of how many existing live subscriptions they had. All Xbox did was trade existing live subs for game pass subs. Essentially becoming just an Xbox live price increase with a rebrand.

 

[mckmas8808]

So this is a good x thread that encapsulates some of the issues with gamepass (and other problems in the game industry at the moment)

Great read. But he is 100% wrong about one thing.

He says "Content doesn't matter in gaming anymore. Network does."



We know this is 100% bullshit. I agree with many of his other points, but content still matters.

 

[GHG]

Then, it probably means that it wouldn't sell without gamepass either.

Explain this then:

Microsoft Admits Xbox Game Pass ‘Cannibalizes’ Game Sales

In documents about the pending Activision Blizzard acquisition, it’s revealed that Microsoft agrees that Xbox Game Pass negatively impacts game sales.

gamerant.com

 

[Three]

How anyone who supports these services is destroying gaming and then you have people refunding gamepass and whatever little hacks they are doing to game the system.

You couldn't make it up. Thats why its best to just think fuck it. Theres lunatics everywhere.

This isn't a "little hack". It's by design and you shouldn't feel sorry for the multitrillion dollar company using this tactic because it's them gaming the system and not the consumer.

The companies that do this are those who know they have high churn and the consumer has little intention of keeping their sub but wants to access the FOMO content short term.

So instead of seeing a release, subscribing and then cancelling there and then and having a month to play that release, they bank on the user actively keeping their subscription intact if they want access.

1) Sub, cancel, pay X dollars, have access to games for 1 month.
2) Sub, can't cancel there and then, play Y days, forget to cancel.

MS willingly choose 2. They didn't leave some unforeseen "hack". They choose 2 which legally requires a refund for those who don't forget. They don't have a pro rata system for that type of subscription.

 

[DenchDeckard]

This isn't a "little hack". It's by design and you shouldn't feel sorry for the multitrillion dollar company using this tactic because it's them gaming the system and not the consumer.

The companies that do this are those who know they have high churn and the consumer has little intention of keeping their sub but wants to access the FOMO content short term.

So instead of seeing a release, subscribing and then cancelling there and then and having a month to play that release, they bank on the user actively keeping their subscription intact if they want access.

1) Sub, cancel, pay X dollars, have access to games for 1 month.
2) Sub, can't cancel there and then, play Y days, forget to cancel.

MS willingly choose 2. They didn't leave some unforeseen "hack". They choose 2 which legally requires a refund for those who don't forget. They don't have a pro rata system for that type of subscription.

I am not sorry for the multi trillion dollar company, FFS.

Its like you guys cant read at all, its painful.

I am CALLING OUT the people who come online and bitch like little babies about the impact Gamepass is having on the industry like it is killing gaming because its leading to lost sales, and then these SAME hypocrites throw ethics and morals out the window to pull tricks like this to play games and not support the industry. Is that sinking in yet??

SO basically, Theres gamers NOT buying games and ALSO refunding their gamepass subs and damaging the industry yet they come on here every day and talk about peoples ethics and lack of support for the industry they love....when these users complaining are worse than anyone.

is that simple enough?

I couldnt give a fuck about what these platform holders are making, I just want good games to play that I pay for legally.

 

[Baemono]

I am CALLING OUT the people who come online and bitch like little babies about the impact Gamepass is having on the industry like it is killing gaming because its leading to lost sales, and then these SAME hypocrites throw ethics and morals out the window to pull tricks like this to play games and not support the industry. Is that sinking in yet??

Reminds me a bit of people justifying pirating Nintendo games cause they don't want to buy the Switch, and then complain Nintendo takes down emulators

 

[Three]

I am not sorry for the multi trillion dollar company, FFS.

Its like you guys cant read at all, its painful.

I am CALLING OUT the people who come online and bitch like little babies about the impact Gamepass is having on the industry like it is killing gaming because its leading to lost sales, and then these SAME hypocrites throw ethics and morals out the window to pull tricks like this to play games and not support the industry. Is that sinking in yet??

SO basically, Theres gamers NOT buying games and ALSO refunding their gamepass subs and damaging the industry yet they come on here every day and talk about peoples ethics and lack of support for the industry they love....when these users complaining are worse than anyone.

is that simple enough?

I couldnt give a fuck about what these platform holders are making, I just want good games to play that I pay for legally.

I see, I get your point now. I don't think the people who are against subs and refunding are not playing games at all though. They are buying games. Everyone is still looking for the cheapest option of doing what they're doing. The issues people have with subs extends beyond just supporting the industry monetarily. Its about what they want the industry to be. It goes into business models. Things like mtx, quality of games, and ownership. Some even know that it might not be cost effective longterm either with the providers ability to continuously raise price to maintain access to your library.

It's not all about price though. That was the point PropellerEar was making about the price not being the only factor. The state of the industry is also important to many.

 

[DenchDeckard]

I see, I get your point now. I don't think the people who are against subs and refunding are not playing games at all though. They are buying games. Everyone is still looking for the cheapest option of doing what they're doing. The issues people have with subs extends beyond just supporting the industry monetarily. Its about what they want the industry to be. It goes into business models. Things like mtx, quality of games, and ownership. Some even know that it might not be cost effective longterm either with the providers ability to continuously raise price to maintain access to your library.

It's not all about price though. That was the point PropellerEar was making about the price not being the only factor. The state of the industry is also important to many.

Ok, I get that but then it takes two seconds to see PropellerEar was using region tricks to buy cheap PS Plus subs....So kind of exposed himself and blocked me for talking about what I have expressed.

I was taught by the best that you cant escape the receipts.

 

[PropellerEar]

Ok, I get that but then it takes two seconds to see PropellerEar was using region tricks to buy cheap PS Plus subs....So kind of exposed himself and blocked me for talking about what I have expressed.

I was taught by the best that you cant escape the receipts.

It's not region tricks, there is a autonomic state as part of Finland(same Country) that had different tax rules considering small purchases, allowing some purchases to be tax free. This was to benefit trade and business in that autonomic "state"/island.
No one got less money, I just didn't need to pay tax. (By design by tax laws between the "host" country and autonomic state)

For you it probably would be like buying Xbox cards when visiting Alaska, to get lower sales tax. (Or your neighbour state.)

You wanted to twist a post into some politics thing, it stated few questions what could be things worth to consider besides price, but whatever... you do cooomsuumer you.

 

[PropellerEar]

.

 

[DenchDeckard]

It's not region tricks, there is a autonomic state as part of Finland(same Country) that had different tax rules considering small purchases, allowing some purchases to be tax free. This was to benefit trade and business in that autonomic "state"/island.
No one got less money, I just didn't need to pay tax. (By design by tax laws between the "host" country and autonomic state)

For you it probably would be like buying Xbox cards when visiting Alaska, to get lower sales tax. (Or your neighbour state.)

You wanted to twist a post into some politics thing, it stated few questions what could be things worth to consider besides price, but whatever... you do cooomsuumer you.

Appreciate the explanation. Apologies if i accused you of something and its incorrect.

I think you have me mixed up as a person but I appreciate the Internet is not the best place to get things across. So, no hard feelings.

 

[Kenneth Haight]

I just want good games to play that I pay for legally.

That is the main issue with the gamepass model, it trains you to not buy games, so there's less money to go around. Games are costing stupid amounts nowadays (needlessly so in many cases)

It's a good model in theory but not for games. For example I'm replaying death stranding directors cut now. It can probably last me 100 hours again if I do everything and get sucked in. If I bought it at launch for £70 theorectically I've got plenty of moneys worth. Gamepass is great for "trialling" games and rightly so the consumer should do that, as we have all got burned before. That is a fundamental problem as we have allowed developers to release broken games at launch and reward them.

It was a good idea once upon a time but it's clearly unsustainable for any but a few companies on planet earth with many billions to burn.