Schala's Theme + Life + Star-Stealing Girl.
This whole track is masterful. This one track elevated my respect for Mitsuda so much more because it really affirmed that he cares about the world and characters he composes for.
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Chrono Trigger: An Amazing RPG with One Semi-Major Problem (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter BluePikmin11
- Start date
Schala's Theme + Life + Star-Stealing Girl.
This whole track is masterful. This one track elevated my respect for Mitsuda so much more because it really affirmed that he cares about the world and characters he composes for.
Weltall Zero
Member
Sorry, no. Someone's art teacher once said "I don't care about your opinion; if you think the Mona Lisa isn't an amazing painting, that says something about you, not the Mona Lisa".
I'm assuming he means "without using NG+", which would be right (most of the endings can't be realistically obtained during your first walkthrough).
DiipuSurotu
Banned
None of the extra endings except for the Developer's Room can be obtained during your first playthrough, because to get them you have to use the telepod's green portal to Lavos which only appears in NG+.
Weltall Zero
Member
Add to all that the "we ran out of money / Square pulled the plug on us 3/4 through" PSX Takahashi curse, only with not enough money to even put the remaining 1/4 into cutscenes (like in Xenogears) and resorting to text boxes. The one 1/4 that connects it to Chrono Trigger, to boot. Kind of hard to recover from that.
Can't you use the bucket in the end of time to challenge Lavos pretty much as soon as you get there? I was under that impression but it's been so many years.
BluePikmin11
Member
My question still hasn't been answered. vvvv
Are you guys playing through the SNES VC version again to make sure?
Are you guys playing through the SNES VC version again to make sure?
No, the bucket is only functional on NG+.Can't you use the bucket in the end of time to challenge Lavos pretty much as soon as you get there? I was under that impression but it's been so many years.
Where did you get that idea?
Weltall Zero
Member
The OP keeps rewriting his story to justify himself, at this point I'm ready to blame everything on him.
Now I'm almost 100% sure that's wrong. For one, why would you need two ways to reach Lavos exclusive to NG+?
TheAggroCraig
Member
It's usable the moment you get there.
Giolon
Member
Shiiiit. I never knew of this album. It's amazing, and the even more amazing part is that it's official.
Weltall Zero
Member
And to top it off it seems I was right that most of the endings can be got before NG+:
http://chrono.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Chrono_Trigger_endings
So, I was right about everything. But what else is new.
It's pretty new. It only came out in October.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Can't you use the bucket in the end of time to challenge Lavos pretty much as soon as you get there? I was under that impression but it's been so many years.
Nah, the bucket works as soon as you get there in a normal playthrough, but if I recall correctly defeating Lavos early this way in a normal playthrough gets you the Developer's Room ending.
Masato Kato said in an interview that Square didn't want to hire Mitsuda for Chrono Cross because there was a strong opposition against working with an ex-employee that went freelance, but Kato insisted that they get him because he wanted his unique "Chrono sound".
Around the same time, the people who ported Chrono Trigger to PS1 pulled this stunt:
Chrono Trigger SNES:
Chrono Trigger PS1:
BluePikmin11
Member
The OP keeps rewriting his story to justify himself, at this point I'm ready to blame everything on him.
Now I'm almost 100% sure that's wrong. For one, why would you need two ways to reach Lavos exclusive to NG+?
I'm honest to god when I ask these questions and concerns, I'd like legitimate substantial responses.
Do you guys 90% doubt people when they post on NeoGaf. I just didn't explain my story with Frog and Magus well.
Don't fault me for that.
Giolon
Member
Nah, the bucket works as soon as you get there in a normal playthrough, but if I recall correctly defeating Lavos early this way in a normal playthrough gets you the Developer's Room ending.
Masato Kato said in an interview that Square didn't want to hire Mitsuda for Chrono Cross because there was a strong opposition against working with an ex-employee that went freelance, but Kato insisted that they get him because he wanted his unique "Chrono sound".
Around the same time, the people who ported Chrono Trigger to PS1 pulled this stunt:
Chrono Trigger SNES:
Chrono Trigger PS1:
That is shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That's some old school Japanese company shit. The company will take care of you forever. But if you leave... You're dead to us.Nah, the bucket works as soon as you get there in a normal playthrough, but if I recall correctly defeating Lavos early this way in a normal playthrough gets you the Developer's Room ending.
Masato Kato said in an interview that Square didn't want to hire Mitsuda for Chrono Cross because there was a strong opposition against working with an ex-employee that went freelance, but Kato insisted that they get him because he wanted his unique "Chrono sound".
Around the same time, the people who ported Chrono Trigger to PS1 pulled this stunt:
Chrono Trigger SNES:
Chrono Trigger PS1:
Obviously things have changed. Masashi Hamauzu left Square in 2010, and then immediately afterwards worked freelance with Square on XIII-2 and LR.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Buy it, it's awesome
I always get emotional listening to it because to me it sort of works as a final send-off to the Chrono series (let's face it, we will never get Chrono Break). One of the tracks has the performer sing that we'll meet again "on the other side".
Anyway, Mitsuda & his band actually performed live versions of the tracks on Japanese TV and in live concerts. Here are instrumental versions of three of the tracks:
- Wind Scene
- Schala's Theme
- On the Other Side
To answer your question, I am pretty sure that you did need to reach the chapter called "The Final Battle" in order to unlock New Game+ in the original SNES version. I am not 100% confident, since I haven't fired up my SNES cart in over 20 years, so I am basing this on old and unreliable memories. However, I do not own the VC version of Chrono Trigger, so I can't say for certain that it is the same or not. It likely is, but I can't be sure.
I still don't think I would recommend that as your first taste of the game's ending though.
BTW, I think it is worth mentioning that the main ending of Chrono Trigger is highly variable. There are two major factors that influence it:
whether or not Chrono has been revived yet, and whether or not the Epoch is intact
Chrono Trigger SNES:
Chrono Trigger PS1:
... this is crazy.
Your complaint about Magus is somewhat valid I think. I don't like the "missable" aspect of JRPGs. In Chrono Cross is even worse. It's much easier to miss party members. In fact, you can't even get everyone on a single playthrough. Some games are pretty much impossible to get a 100% without a guide (like FFX-2... and getting it there changes the ending!). I guess this is part of why I like the Zelda games so much, you just never have to worry about it.
However, Chrono Trigger is very short, and you can breeze through the game in the New Game+ if you really want the character. But to be honest you probably wouldn't have used Magus too much (he lacks normal dual and triple techs).
About the game "forcing" you to do the "sidequests"... Is the Black Omen really just a side quest? Or just part of the normal game plot? Remember, you could have tried to beat Lavos much early in the game. Is everything after that point a mere side quest?
The Black Omen really plays like the other parts of the game. If you enjoyed playing up until that point, I don't see the problem in the Black Omen specifically.
BluePikmin11
Member
I think it is an optional quest you can do to get to the Final Battle Chapter.
I very much enjoyed my experience up until inner Lavos second form killed my party instantly in just one hit. I was around the Level 40s at the time, Black Omen helped me reach those particular levels for my party. So I was kind of forced to grind more levels by doing the sidequests missions.
Weltall Zero
Member
Who exactly should we fault then?
Well, apparently you remember wrong. My own recollection was that you get the dev ending if you a) beat Lavos right at the start with the green telepod, or b) beat Lavos when you face him and are supposed to lose (when Chrono dies, IIRC). The wiki seems to agree with me, which makes sense; why would not being in NG prevent you from watching an ending you legitimately earned?
As a matter of fact, all endings save one (Successor of Guardia, which does require the telepod) can be obtained during a normal, non NG+ walkthrough. Honestly, you could have checked as much before correcting me, either the first time or now.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Glitter and Gold
Banned
The only thing I didn't like about Chrono Trigger is that it didn't really resolve alot of the things in 12,000 BC
and those lingering questions are what lead to Chrono Cross lol
I do want to play Radical Dreamer someday, but I don't really have much interest in CC from what I've read about it.
and those lingering questions are what lead to Chrono Cross lol
I do want to play Radical Dreamer someday, but I don't really have much interest in CC from what I've read about it.
Buy it, it's awesome
I always get emotional listening to it because to me it sort of works as a final send-off to the Chrono series (let's face it, we will never get Chrono Break). One of the tracks has the performer sing that we'll meet again "on the other side".
Anyway, Mitsuda & his band actually performed live versions of the tracks on Japanese TV and in live concerts. Here are instrumental versions of three of the tracks:
- Wind Scene
- Schala's Theme
- On the Other Side
Thanks for these, I really dislike the vocals on the new arrangements
Shimomura has done plenty of freelance work for SE after she left the company as well (and Sakimoto). I'm glad that they relaxed on this ridiculous stance.
Greatest Ever
Member
Congratulations?
This can't be your stance, right? I'm being trolled. That's what it is.
Weltall Zero
Member
That is one hundred percent my stance. I'm feeling uncharacteristically generous, so I will break down my reasoning for you.
First of all, let us differentiate between personal taste and reality. We are specifically talking about your statement that, and I literally quote:
If you were to say "I dislike Chrono Trigger for this reason or that", you would be stating a fact; namely, your opinion. You, of course, are entitled to like or dislike any and everything you want. However, the second you state that something "is loaded with problems", you are not, in fact, stating your opinion, but rather making a statement about the observable, objective reality, that can thus be analyzed, tested, and refuted.
The next step is quite simple. There are two main hypothesis that adequately explain you making your statement:
1) Chrono Trigger, a game universally lauded as the pinnacle of the RPG genre, voted as the best in every single yearly NeoGAF thread for the past half a decade, and reviewed more often than not with a perfect score by both professional reviewers and RPG enthusiasts, is objectively a game "loaded with problems" and "nowhere near a great one".
2) You, a single, random nobody in an anonymous message board, are actually wrong.
Now, you can provide a third hypothesis if you want, or some proof supporting the second one. Until then, I'm afraid which of these seems by far the more likely explanation is pretty obvious.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Chrono Cross is a somewhat divisive game. Some people love it and some people hate it. You should really just make your own opinion by playing it yourself.
Haha, I like the vocals but yeah these versions have some incredibly intense feel to them by focusing on the instruments.
Yeah Square relaxed their stance later on. Mitsuda was kind of a pioneer as one of the first Square composers (if not the first) to go freelance. He did supervise the music on the DS port and his name was reinserted in that version's credits.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Extra DS ones? Yes.
Tizoc
Member
Greatest Ever
Member
If you need verification by ad populum then you're either extremely terrible at any sort of debate or trolling.
I've yet to see another medium use the voting of an internet forum as anything objective, and no bullshit you put up will make that objective.
I would love to see your source on it getting more perfect reviews than not, because that's simply not true. As far as RPGs, I'd put Dark Souls over it, I'd easily bet Witcher 3 would get more votes on this very site if compared.
If you have an actual point to make regarding the game and don't want to waste my time, look at my complaints about its random encounters and respond to that, not layman argumentative fallacies.
Weltall Zero
Member
If you think anyone in this forum has any desire to troll you, you have delusions of grandeur. You did not make any argument, there was nothing to debate. It was just you against the entire world.
Actually, the important bit was that professional critics also agree it's a masterpiece, which again is a quite more reliable metric than random dude online. But if I had only mentioned the critics, you would have said that what's important is what regular players think of it.
You'd "easily" lose that bet, then:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1157480
Even on the year it was released, Witcher III barely managed to get eighth spot. CT, of corse, remains at number one like always. I mean, it would have taken you all of five seconds to get it right instead of embarrasing yourself.
I replied to your borderline driveby post about it having "problems". You didn't bother argumentating what those were in that post or the following one, so I won't waste my own time looking for your arguments all over the thread. Again, you overestimate how much anyone cares about you, which arguably was my fault by trying to explain anything to you.
That said, I admit I'd love to hear about those random encounters, considering Chrono Trigger has none (yet once again highlighting your mindboggling ignorance). But yeah, keep digging.
Edit: Curiosity got the better of me and I did search for your comment on those supposed "random" encounters. Turns out you don't even know what "random" means. Thanks for the laughs.
vainglorious
Member
Hey OP you should play Final Fantasy 6. Once the World of Ruin portion begins, after a couple of quests you can literally just go to Kefka's Tower and ignore the majority of the game's cast.
I love Chrono Trigger too but I still think FF6 is the better RPG.
I love Chrono Trigger too but I still think FF6 is the better RPG.
BluePikmin11
Member
I am playing that right now. I personally really like its story, but its high rate of enemy encounters has been really annoying me from time to time for me to like it more than Chrono Trigger
FF6 spoilers:
I'm at the Fanatics Tower, the MagiWizard is the most annoying boss so far with his Ultima attack. -_-
But this is getting off-topic. I suppose I'm done with this thread then if I only have one answer to go by. I'm leaning to my complaint having its justified reasons. :/
I feel the answers I got were mixing up the different versions of the game.
Thanks for the discussion guys! It was a total joy to talk somewhat peacefully about the game with its positives and negatives.
I still really love the game despite the one semi-major problem.
Greatest Ever
Member
Lmao plz stop, "professional" video game critics don't factor into a game's quality, especially in a medium where there's literally zero academic standards for the writers. You're basing your fanboyism on paid video game bloggers, NeoGAF, and enthusiast sites. Swell.If you think anyone in this forum has any desire to troll you, you have delusions of grandeur. You did not make any argument, there was nothing to debate. It was just you against the entire world.
Actually, the important bit was that professional critics also agree it's a masterpiece, which again is a quite more reliable metric than random dude online. But if I had only mentioned the critics, you would have said that what's important is what regular players think of it.
You'd "easily" lose that bet, then:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1157480
Even on the year it was released, Witcher III barely managed to get eighth spot. CT, of corse, remains at number one like always. I mean, it would have taken you all of five seconds to get it right instead of embarrasing yourself.
I replied to your borderline driveby post about it having "problems". You didn't bother argumentating what those were in that post or the following one, so I won't waste my own time looking for your arguments all over the thread. Again, you overestimate how much anyone cares about you, which arguably was my fault by trying to explain anything to you.
That said, I admit I'd love to hear about those random encounters, considering Chrono Trigger has none (yet once again highlighting your mindboggling ignorance). But yeah, keep digging.
Edit: Curiosity got the better of me and I did search for your comment on those supposed "random" encounters. Turns out you don't even know what "random" means. Thanks for the laughs.
Here's where we stop this topic, because unlike other people in this thread, you obviously have an emotional investment in this game that clouds your judgement:
1) you think me saying it's a good game is borderline driveby, and you think I expected anything more from my post other than it's an opinion on a game in a thread about the game
2) you've spent more time on my post than actually discussing Chrono Trigger in this thread, and refuse to acknowledge that it may have flaws
3) you claim I didn't post anything "argumentating" (this is not a word), yet when I do post something involving the game, you go all "tee hee you don't know what that means"
Step back from the computer if a post about a video game gets you this up in arms. Plenty of folk have varying opinions on the game, plenty of folk have varying opinions on my favorite games, I don't try posting the pretentious "You against the world" nonsense.
Again, let me make this clear, it is fantastic you like the game, as I did. It is fantastic you assume that others agreeing that it is a fun time makes it an acclaimed game. It objectively is. It is fanboyism to assume it can't be criticized, or that someone with a differing opinion, even that with not much in it (seriously, I have a job lol), is some sort of narrative.
Crimsonsky
Member
Dat delusion. Your problem doesn't exist. Rudimentary knowledge in game mechanics or if that guide you are following has boss strats will show that your problem is not one. I beat the game recently at level 32 I believe. You know when his attack is coming and can properly prepare yourself for its defense regardless of level. No grinding required. A party full of prism weapons after a few trips through NG+ makes him a joke.
CT is known for a wide variety of things it did that have still not been replicated with the same level of perfection to this day. Difficulty is not one of them.
By the way, I have been a little confused about what attack actually wiped out your party. I at first thought you died to Grand Stone, Lavos' strongest attack, or maybe Dreamless, but then you also said that the Lavos Core was disappointing when you got to it. Did you die to Lavo's inner form (at which point, I presume you died to his Doors of Doom open attack)?
Well yeah, internet forums love their recency bias.
BluePikmin11
Member
Which boss are you referring to? Is this Lavos second form?
I believe it was an attack that involved his lasers. The boss was Lavos second form.
I forgot the name of the attack. But it killed my entire party even when my characters were at lvl. 40.
His laser attack always seemed to be first priority, I never get to prepare to defend.
Greatest Ever
Member
No doubt, I don't think now would be an apt time for a comparison nor would using a competition where countless other games are in the mix make an apt comparison either.
That being said, a merit-based argument of both would be entertaining as so many view both as high peaks in their respective genres.
Weltall Zero
Member
Poison the well, ad hominem, yawn. So damn predictable.
And there it is. You are right and everyone else (me, critics, GAF, bloggers) is wrong. Also you have to be pretty clueless if you think "paid bloggers" or NeoGAF have anything to do with my opinion of the game, considering I've loved it to death since 1995.
Yep, I see you stopping so much. /s
Ah, yes, my opinion doesn't count because I actually like it; the classic "fanboy" circular argument.
Stop being disingenuous. This is the second time you've tried to twist your words into saying "it's a good game". Have a little decency and stand by what you actually said.
I don't know or care what you expected; I'm sorry that complacency and nods isn't what you got (and let's be frank, I'm far from the one who told you you simply don't know what you're talking about).
When its supposed "flaws" are being argued by someone as "lol random encounters", when the game doesn't even have any, I don't see how I could devote more time picking them apart. It's like shooting cannonballs at a sand castle during a rising tide.
Yeah, I wrongly loaned from Spanish, my first language. Would you rather we continue this conversation in Spanish?
Because you don't?
I admit I'm impressed at the utter lack of capacity for embarrassment you seem to have. I just pointed out that you literally don't know what random means, and all you have to say about it is "you meanie"?I hate to break it to you, but it's obvious not many in this thread agree with you, and a lot of posters have made their opinion of your post rather clear. If anything I'm the only one that dignified it with anything more than "you have no clue" (which frankly is as much as it deserves); you should be thankful.
"Assume"? That's literally a tautology.
Ah my friend, but that is what you don't understand. I didn't say it can't be criticised.
I said your "critique" (being too generous with the use of the word) was exceedingly clumsy, unfounded, and indefensible. Five posts later you have indeed failed to defend it whatsoever (rather, you've once and again embarrassed yourself with the "random" nonsense), so you have, very predictably, proven me right. You have no arguments at all. Which is why you've spent all your time criticising my cricism of your criticism, rather than defending or even making these arguments, and then, in a stunning display of pot and kettle interaction, criticising me for not addressing those very inexistent arguments. This is expectedly going nowhere fast so I think I'm not going to waste any more time here.
In any case, what does having a job have to do with anything? Stop posting if you have more important things to do, I'm not your boss or your mother.
bishopcruz
Member
Guys, Chrono Trigger is too awesome to fight over, let's all relax and listen to amazing music
Mitsuda makes everything better.
Mitsuda makes everything better.
Crimsonsky
Member
Lavos.
It sounds like your speed was low, load up on speed capsules. Also go into the menu and put it on Wait. That way you can respond with careful planning.
Also it amuses me that people still think Witcher 3 would win best game, despite the fact it lost just last year. I mean read a bit of the thread at least.
Also Weltall, you do God's work brother, Godspeed.
I have had a bit of an epiphany regarding your issue with Chrono Trigger and your central questions with this thread.
Now, I was trying to puzzle out your problem with beating Lavos and why you died so quickly to his attack. I am still not sure how you died instantly at the level you were at. I can only surmise that you were tragically under-equiped, so your magic defense was too low for what you needed. Without knowing more about how you played the game, I can't dissect that question any further.
However, when I was thinking about solutions to your problem, I had something of a realization. All of my answers as to other methods you could use to get stronger enough to beat Lavos involved doing various late-game sidequests. In other words, no matter how I cut it, your basic premise for this thread is correct: it is mandatory that you go through all of the side-quests in order to prepare to beat Lavos. While I disagree on the specifics of why, I can't argue with that basic premise.
However, I do not think that this is a flaw with Chrono Trigger. Rather, it is the result in a difference in expectations about what a "sidequest" is. In other words, Chrono Trigger was designed in a different era than the RPGs you are more familiar with, and thus was built to meet different expectations from its players.
The final section of Chrono Trigger is essentially an open world section of the game where the player can go through it in any order of the player's choosing, but the player is still expected to play through all of it. There is a final boss that can be fought at any time, but preperations need to made in order to make the fight possible. This set-up is actually very common in other RPGs from the same era. The entire second half of Final Fantasy VI uses the same structure, as does the last third of Final Fantasy V. This influence probably comes from the very non-linear Dragon Quest games of the era, such as Dragon Quest III.
In games of the era, RPGs did not have the modern idea of minor sidequests that could be ignored without consequences, nor the idea of a challenging post-game. The idea of the optional post-game super-boss was only invented in the early RPGs of the PS1 era. As such, the most powerful and difficult opponent in SNES-era RPGs was always the story's final boss. This is very different from many modern RPGs, where the final boss is designed to be beaten at a more normal level of difficulty, with the hard stuff usually found in an optional post-game.
So, the sidequests in games like Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI are "essential, but not mandatory". The expectation is that a new player will do all of them. However, an experienced player (or one playing through New Game+) can skip those quests if they so choose.
So, the facet of Chrono Trigger you point out is more or less true. However, I wouldn't describe it as a "problem" of the game. Simply, it is just a description of the game's structure.
Now, if you feel that there isn't a middle ground of difficulty for fighting Lavos, I assure you that there is. If you are not over-leveled, Lavos can be a really fun and challenging fight with some unexpected gimmicks. The Lavos Core in particular is a hard fight that throws a nasty curve-ball at people who haven't read a guide.
If you are still looking for a challenge in Chrono Trigger though, you can always try to get the Developer Room ending. It requires beating Lavos with just Chrono and Marle at the very start of the game. It is quite a bit more challenging than using a full team.
BluePikmin11
Member
Well, I got into the mindset that you had the freedom and choice to do what you want in the game, and the game did let me progress through the whole main game up until Lavos second form.
I kind of understand that kind of game structure, I guess personally I'm just ticked off on how its executed here in Chrono Trigger.
Just recently, I realized that Breath of the Wild does have similar game structure, you could just easily go to Ganon's Castle and attempt to beat the final boss at the start of the game. That is according to interviews with Zelda WiiU/NX developers.
I'm less ticked off to how that's executed because I naturally know that my Link avatar isn't powerful enough to beat Ganon at an early time, especially without the Master Sword. So I'd progress through the story and explore Hyrule to find the most powerful, useful tools. This is speaking hypothetically of course and observing its game design, because the game is not out yet.
With Chrono Trigger, I felt powerful and confident enough to beat the final boss of the game with my party being in the levels of 40, especially after conquering Queen Zeal with her constant use of putting party members to one HP.
After that and beating the outer shell of Lavos pretty easily, I thought I could beat the final boss with little problems. I seeked to have the conclusion now so I could do New Game + stuff for the multiple endings and retrieve Magus as well. But my entire party died instantly.
The game essentially tells me I can't have the conclusion yet and I HAVE to do the side-quest stuff first to grind more levels. That was the moment that I had gotten ticked off, especially after the large progress, freedom, and challenge I went through in the game.
I would have at least tolerated that problem if I was required to do the side quests before you could enter the Black Omen. So that way, I would already be powerful enough to beat the final boss, instead of the game telling me last minute to grind more after getting killed by the final boss. The game offered the choice to beat the Black Omen early and not do side-quests, and as a result, the game fired back on me last minute and it ticked me off.
I'll get to beating the game again this time. Is there a better online guide I could use to help me experience everything the game offers? I already beat the game once, so now I want to see everything.
Around the same time, the people who ported Chrono Trigger to PS1 pulled this stunt:
Chrono Trigger SNES:
Chrono Trigger PS1:
More like Shade Enix, am I right?
Around the same time, the people who ported Chrono Trigger to PS1 pulled this stunt:
Chrono Trigger SNES:
Chrono Trigger PS1:
How about the DS version? Are both names on it? o_o
That's fucked up.
I'm not sure what to recommend as a guide, since I mostly relied on various issues of Nintendo Power to guide me through the game back in the day.
I would have to go do some research in order to make a recommendation.
If you want to get the endings though, the basic gist of it is to challenge Lavos regularly during New Game+. If there is a point in the game where you think "beating the game now would give me a strange result, based on where the plot stands", then there is usually an ending in which that plays out. It has been a while, so I can't think of all of them off of the top of my head. There a couple of ones with very obscure timing though.