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[mxbison]

Religion at least provides a foundation.

A foundation of hate, lies, theft, and murder for thousands of years. Nice one.

Of course there will be bullies at church, if there is one thing they are best at it's preaching something and doing the exact opposite.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

A foundation of hate, lies, theft, and murder for thousands of years. Nice one.

Of course there will be bullies at church, if there is one thing they are best at it's preaching something and doing the exact opposite.

Yes, because the atrocities of back then were the result of strict following of the Christian Bible and not by people in positions of power mandating them. /s

Kind of like how one can argue how communism is good in paper, but invite the human element to it, you get corruption.

I think your grievances are misplaced as it should be towards our misunderstanding of human nature rather than holy books or economic ideologies.

 

[funkygunther]

Yes, because the atrocities of back then were the result of strict following of the Christian Bible and not by people in positions of power mandating them. /s

Kind of like how one can argue how communism is good in paper, but invite the human element to it, you get corruption.

I think your grievances are misplaced as it should be towards our misunderstanding of human nature rather than holy books or economic ideologies.

Is beating a slave within an inch of his life an atrocity?

 

[mxbison]

Yes, because the atrocities of back then were the result of strict following of the Christian Bible and not by people in positions of power mandating them.

Kind of like how one can argue how communism is good in paper, but invite the human element to it, you get corruption.

I think your grievances are misplaced as it should be towards our misunderstanding of human nature rather than holy books or economic ideologies.

Of course the real issue is human nature, but religion uses that to gain money and power and push their shitty ideologies on people.

Back then? Last I checked the Christian Church still collects taxes (or let's the government do it for them). If you don't pay you can ultimately go to jail. When I left the church I had to pay an 80€ exit fee for something I never signed up for, nice business model.

You want a meaning in life? You want to go to heaven? You want your sins forgiven? We'll give you all that as long as you pay us!

Just because Christianity isn't as fucked up as Islam (nowadays) doesn't make it right.

 

[Ownage]

A really good friend of mine is a member of an American Baptist church. We met in high school, so I've known her for 8 years.

She is the kindest, friendliest and most considerate person you'll ever meet. For the last several months she's been confiding in me that she's been bullied by some people within the church, and one of them is the pastor's wife.

It has come to the point that she and her family want to change church.

Does bulling actually happen in churches? I've never been a church goer and did not grow up in that scenario.

I understand bullies can be found everywhere people are, and I believe her, but find it hard to except the fact that people who say they live by the fruits of the spirit, can actually be quite mean and gossipy. If so, why bother attending church? Is it only for socializing?

And which denomination is the craziest?

I went to an American Baptist church for a while, and found the same thing. Turns out the senior minister was banging members of the choir, as was the associate minister. Further, in the youth department, parents were sleeping with each other. The entire church was one big swinger's fest. That's how fucked up the church was. Most of the old families died out, and now in order to survive the church turned ultra hard left and caters to the tranny GBL scene.

If you are religious, remember the warning about believing in false idols. Church is one of them. All that's needed is a relationship between you and your maker.

 

[IFireflyl]

Of course the real issue is human nature, but religion uses that to gain money and power and push their shitty ideologies on people.

Back then? Last I checked the Christian Church still collects taxes (or let's the government do it for them). If you don't pay you can ultimately go to jail. When I left the church I had to pay an 80€ exit fee for something I never signed up for, nice business model.

You want a meaning in life? You want to go to heaven? You want your sins forgiven? We'll give you all that as long as you pay us!

Just because Christianity isn't as fucked up as Islam (nowadays) doesn't make it right.

What are you talking about? If you had to sign a contract to get into a church, that should have been your first red flag that that "church" was wrong.

 

[Scotty W]

The fact that you bring this question up with us rather than the church is telling. Of what? Anyhow, here is this:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18

 

[Toots]

A lot of church people are just bad people who go to the church to feel better about themselves.
A lot of atheist are bad people who are atheists because it makes them feel better about themselves.
A lot of people are bad people.

When I left the church I had to pay an 80€ exit fee for something I never signed up for, nice business model.

Dude ! EviLore just told me you forgot to pay the Neogaf posting fee for this post ! You need to do it asap, if you don't know how to, just give me a month of gold and i'll do it for you.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

I'm religious and I don't feel morally superior because of it. In fact, I can't stand that sort of attitude. It was my rejection of religious people being judgemental and "holier than thou" that caused me to distance myself from those aspects of religion, and why I can't stand to see them gaining so much popularity outside of religion these days.

But look who I'm talking to. If I remember correctly, the reason you're here is the result of the secular form of "holier than thou."

So how about being critical of the behavior, not the source? Why put groups into figurative boxes and say "these are the really bad ones, though!"?

We have someone right in this thread who is claiming their sense of morality is superior because it’s based on god’s objective standards. Nevermind they pick and choose what feels right to them in their own heart just like everyone else on the planet, while ignoring the bible’s immoral and wicked instructions. The attitude goes along with christianity very naturally if you really believe it gives you special moral insight directly from god unattainable by mere humans. This is the definition of sanctimonious moral superiority. If you don’t believe its the word of god, it’s just a fallible philosophy like any other, but that’s not really even religion at that point. It’s pretty hard to believe you have special knowledge of the truth and yet remain humble.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

Of course the real issue is human nature, but religion uses that to gain money and power and push their shitty ideologies on people.

Again, human nature issue. People will bend the rules to their will for their own benefit, religious or not. As far as I know: throughout history, whether from a de facto government/religion, people will commit atrocities because it's pardoned by law.

Back then? Last I checked the Christian Church still collects taxes (or let's the government do it for them). If you don't pay you can ultimately go to jail. When I left the church I had to pay an 80€ exit fee for something I never signed up for, nice business model.

80 Euros? Where are you from? Pretty sure that isn't a thing in North America.

You want a meaning in life? You want to go to heaven? You want your sins forgiven? We'll give you all that as long as you pay us!

Just because Christianity isn't as fucked up as Islam (nowadays) doesn't make it right.

Personally, I wouldn't make moral judgements on people back in the day. Doesn't seem fair. Sure, if we look at it from the lens of the present, it is wrong. But what about people 100 years from now looking back at our deeds? Pretty sure they're going to see the sins of their fathers and blame us for turning a blind eye to it, whatever it may be. This attitude is literally what leftists do. We should be better than that.

People did the things they did because it was permitted by law. The Crusades, slavery, the holocaust, abortion... The list goes on. So again, your grievances are misplaced.

 

[funkygunther]

Again, human nature issue. People will bend the rules to their will for their own benefit, religious or not. As far as I know: throughout history, whether from a de facto government/religion, people will commit atrocities because it's pardoned by law.

And pardoned by their holy book.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

And pardoned by their holy book.

Sure, but on a massive scale?

If there's anything any of us should be afraid of, it's the mob of people enabled by the powers that be, willing to die for their state/religion.

 

[funkygunther]

Sure, but on a massive scale?

If there's anything any of us should be afraid of, it's the mob of people enabled by the powers that be, willing to die for their state/religion.

Such as the scale of slavery, in Biblical and non-Biblical times, maybe. But why does scale matter now? Either things are atrocities or they're not.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

Such as the scale of slavery, in Biblical and non-Biblical times, maybe. But why does scale matter now? Either things are atrocities or they're not.

It matters, because human nature hasn't changed, we're just hit with different circumstances, like our constant connection via internet. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but technology, with all it's positives, can trigger a mob mentality within us. The powerful use that to their advantage.

 

[funkygunther]

It matters, because human nature hasn't changed, we're just hit with different circumstances, like our constant connection via internet. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but technology, with all it's positives, can trigger a mob mentality within us. The powerful use that to their advantage.

"Human nature" is unquantifiable here. I could easily say of course it's changed, and actually point to us not thinking beating our slaves is cool as proof of it. Despite the foundation provided by the religion, that you think is a positive thing, going against this.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

"Human nature" is unquantifiable here. I could easily say of course it's changed, and actually point to us not thinking beating our slaves is cool as proof of it. Despite the foundation provided by the religion, that you think is a positive thing, going against this.

Eh, I'm not convinced. Me thinking in a moral way doesn't excuse me from the rest of humanity's failures. I'm still human, prone to mistakes.

I never said it was a positive thing, I said it was the lesser of two evils.

 

[funkygunther]

Eh, I'm not convinced. Me thinking in a moral way doesn't excuse me from the rest of humanity's failures. I'm still human, prone to mistakes.

I never said it was a positive thing, I said it was the lesser of two evils.

How is beating a slave vs not beating a slave the lesser of two evils?

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

How is beating a slave vs not beating a slave the lesser of two evils?

Do you see anyone in the Western world owning slaves and beating them? No, you see them cherry-picking the Bible to bolster their modern beliefs. Now, if we somehow devolve into owning slaves again, I'll retract my statement, but until then...

I'd rather pick modern-day Christianity to whatever Sam Smith and the rest of his ilk are pushing nowadays.

 

[StueyDuck]

Shitty people will find ways to gain power to be shitty. The shitty religious zealot is no different from the shitty woke zealot.

They all want authority to bully other people.

 

[funkygunther]

Do you see anyone in the Western world owning slaves and beating them? No, you see them cherry-picking the Bible to bolster their modern beliefs. Now, if we somehow devolve into owning slaves again, I'll retract my statement, but until then...

I'd rather pick modern-day Christianity to whatever Sam Smith and the rest of his ilk are pushing nowadays.

False dichotomy. If you cherry pick your morals, by rejecting old Christianity, then you do the same as Sam Smith or whatever. But if you pick "modern-day Christianity" then you also pick the rest of Christianity.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

False dichotomy. If you cherry pick your morals, by rejecting old Christianity, then you do the same as Sam Smith or whatever. But if you pick "modern-day Christianity" then you also pick the rest of Christianity.

I don't believe in the Bible. Me 'picking modern-day Christianity' is just merely picking a side. If that means I pick the rest of it as well, fine whatever.

 

[funkygunther]

I don't believe in the Bible. Me 'picking modern-day Christianity' is just merely picking a side. If that means I pick the rest of it, fine whatever.

Which means you're also picking its foundational atrocities, and in this loop we ride. Ultimately I just think your hatred of a particular group is clouding your mind a little here.

 

[ConkerTheSquirrel.]

Which means you're also picking its foundational atrocities, and in this loop we ride. Ultimately I just think your hatred of a particular group is clouding your mind a little here.

You're not wrong there. Anyways, I'm religion'd out. Goodnight.

 

[BadBurger]

My family started out Catholic. For some reason, when I was about 10, my mother wanted to attend a Methodist church. To this day I have no idea why. Anyways, at the time my family did not have much money - my father had just left the Navy after 8 years, and was working as a super low level plane mechanic. So when it was tie to donate / tithing, we could not afford to give more than like a single dollar each Sunday. Seriously, we were that poor.

Well, many people at the church harassed my parents over that. Really badly. So we left and went back to our Catholic church after only about five or six months.

 

[mxbison]

What are you talking about? If you had to sign a contract to get into a church, that should have been your first red flag that that "church" was wrong.

You don't sign up, your parents sign you up as a baby.

First step is the baptism which the church has managed to communicate as the "official" way of giving a baby a name. If you don't do it you pretty much have a nameless little bastard.

School is next. Religion class and leisure activities organized by the church etc. Kids not in church can't attend and are the odd one's out.

Then at like age 12 or something and there is the communion which is a huge ass ceremony where the kids ( only those who are members of the church obviously) get a ton of money and presents, it's like christmas x10. Which kid wouldn't want to join there?

From literal baby age on they try to put social and emotional pressure on parents and also target kids directly to try to get them into church. And so the billions and billions of church taxes keep flowing.

80 Euros? Where are you from? Pretty sure that isn't a thing in North America.

Germany. Maybe that is not a thing in North America but I'm sure the churches have more than enough other bullshit they pull there and are also heavily supported by the government.

 

[Winter John]

We were raised Catholic, but not really. My old man was a hippy, and my mom didn't give a shit. We went to the celebrations and the street parades but that was for the free food

 

[IFireflyl]

You don't sign up, your parents sign you up as a baby.

You don't have to pay money to leave a church. You being a member of a church doesn't mandate an exchange of money unless, for some reason, you signed a contract.

First step is the baptism which the church has managed to communicate as the "official" way of giving a baby a name. If you don't do it you pretty much have a nameless little bastard.

We must be talking about Catholicism since this isn't done by many (any) churches outside of Catholicism. Baptism, Biblically speaking, is supposed to be done after salvation. Babies are not able to understand the concept of salvation or baptism. Being baptized by itself does nothing.

School is next. Religion class and leisure activities organized by the church etc. Kids not in church can't attend and are the odd one's out.

I went to public school. I can't speak to this at all.

Then at like age 12 or something and there is the communion which is a huge ass ceremony where the kids ( only those who are members of the church obviously) get a ton of money and presents, it's like christmas x10. Which kid wouldn't want to join there?

Definitely talking about Catholicism. The Catholic church is one of the most corrupt organizations in history. They don't encourage people to read their Bible, and they did (and do) everything they can to remain in a position of power. While being Catholic doesn't automatically make you a bad guy, or even not saved, it's probably the worst Christian sect due to their corruption.

From literal baby age on they try to put social and emotional pressure on parents and also target kids directly to try to get them into church. And so the billions and billions of church taxes keep flowing.

Again, corrupt organization.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Without question they’re church bullies, donations become vital, we all know the religious belief thing, dress requirements. Church should leave you feeling good, not bullied.

 

[midnightAI]

Yes. Yes I do. For example, you couldn't suppress your desire to post a "gotcha" response, so you ignored my full post in order to get a quick jab at Christianity. Maybe you don't find that kind of behavior "despicable", but this is where your subjective morality fails.

Wait, did I read that right, you think I'm despicable? I'm hurt

 

[IFireflyl]

Wait, did I read that right, you think I'm despicable? I'm hurt

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Wait, did I read that right, you think I'm despicable? I'm hurt

His “objective” morality allows him to say that in all seriousness, with the full support of god and all the angels.

 

[IFireflyl]

His “objective” morality allows him to say that in all seriousness, with the full support of god and all the angels.

I didn't call him despicable. Also, he was (at least, I'm pretty sure he was) making a joke. You're probably going to say that you were making a joke too, but sarcastic remarks aren't jokes. What you're doing is making fun of what I believe in, and trying to color it as a joke. That's not funny. It's just you being mean, but you think it's fine as long as someone who doesn't believe in God finds it humorous.

As an aside, I'm not sure why you put "objective" in quotes. Objective just means that something isn't influenced by feelings or opinions.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

I didn't call him despicable. Also, he was (at least, I'm pretty sure he was) making a joke. You're probably going to say that you were making a joke too, but sarcastic remarks aren't jokes. What you're doing is making fun of what I believe in, and trying to color it as a joke. That's not funny. It's just you being mean, but you think it's fine as long as someone who doesn't believe in God finds it humorous.

As an aside, I'm not sure why you put "objective" in quotes. Objective just means that something isn't influenced by feelings or opinions.

You did absolutely call him despicable, now you’re backpedaling and saying it was a joke. I am not and was not joking, your “objective” standards are the opinions and feelings of men who wrote a holy book, not the edicts of a supreme being. If they were, we might have to be more concerned about the contradictions.

Your self assurance that you have the final answer is keeping your mind constrained. Just try to imagine feeling about the bible the way you feel about the other countless holy books that exist. Maybe there’s some timeless wisdom in there, there’s also a lot of accounts of tribal warfare and genocide commanded by god. This meets no kind of objective moral standard. You can’t explain that contradiction except to say well those people must have deserved to be massacred for their wickedness, like god said. It’s indefensible, and makes no sense as the holy word of a divine being, but it makes perfect sense as the scribblings of some primitive tribes warring in the desert.

 

[IFireflyl]

You did absolutely call him despicable, now you’re backpedaling and saying it was a joke.

Don't skim my posts, and don't interject into a conversation with someone else if you're not going to follow the conversation. The person you replied to was NOT the same person I was originally talking to. That's your first mistake. In my original post to a different user, what I said was that certain behavior was despicable. At no point did a say the person himself was despicable. And again, that person wasn't even this latest individual who, I believe, was making a joke. That's your second mistake. Additionally, at no point did I say that I was making a joke. That was the third mistake. If you want to have grown-up conversations, then learn how to properly engage in a discussion. Don't spread lies about what I said or did. My post history is available, and everyone can see what I said. If you're saying I said something, prove it. Where is the post where I said this crap?

I am not and was not joking, your “objective” standards are the opinions and feelings of men who wrote a holy book, not the edicts of a supreme being. If they were, we might have to be more concerned about the contradictions.

The Bible isn't the opinions and feelings of men. You're free to believe that that is all the Bible is, but for Christian's it is the inspired word of God. The morals contained within have not changed since the words were writ. I'm not sure what contradictions you're referring to.

Your self assurance that you have the final answer is keeping your mind constrained. Just try to imagine feeling about the bible the way you feel about the other countless holy books that exist. Maybe there’s some timeless wisdom in there, there’s also a lot of accounts of tribal warfare and genocide commanded by god. This meets no kind of objective moral standard. You can’t explain that contradiction except to say well those people must have deserved to be massacred for their wickedness, like god said. It’s indefensible, and makes no sense as the holy word of a divine being, but it makes perfect sense as the scribblings of some primitive tribes warring in the desert.

You're wanting to argue and disprove my God, not understand why I believe what I want to believe. You have every right to reject God, but do you really expect me to listen to you, someone who very apparently has not studied the Bible (not read snippets, but actually studied it), about what is wrong with the Bible? Further more, where do you get off with making statements like, "you can't explain contradiction..."? At no point did you provide to me a contradiction, and then I failed to explain it. We get it: you don't believe in God. That doesn't give you the right to be an ass to Christians.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Don't skim my posts, and don't interject into a conversation with someone else if you're not going to follow the conversation. The person you replied to was NOT the same person I was originally talking to. That's your first mistake. In my original post to a different user, what I said was that certain behavior was despicable. At no point did a say the person himself was despicable. And again, that person wasn't even this latest individual who, I believe, was making a joke. That's your second mistake. Additionally, at no point did I say that I was making a joke. That was the third mistake. If you want to have grown-up conversations, then learn how to properly engage in a discussion. Don't spread lies about what I said or did. My post history is available, and everyone can see what I said. If you're saying I said something, prove it. Where is the post where I said this crap?



The Bible isn't the opinions and feelings of men. You're free to believe that that is all the Bible is, but for Christian's it is the inspired word of God. The morals contained within have not changed since the words were writ. I'm not sure what contradictions you're referring to.



You're wanting to argue and disprove my God, not understand why I believe what I want to believe. You have every right to reject God, but do you really expect me to listen to you, someone who very apparently has not studied the Bible (not read snippets, but actually studied it), about what is wrong with the Bible? Further more, where do you get off with making statements like, "you can't explain contradiction..."? At no point did you provide to me a contradiction, and then I failed to explain it. We get it: you don't believe in God. That doesn't give you the right to be an ass to Christians.

When I said “him” i was referring to the original person you said that to, I guess when you said “him” you were referring to this other person who responded. Yes I misunderstood what you were saying, you stand by calling cyberpunkd’s behavior despicable. You’re right you didn’t say you were joking, my mistake.

Since you study the bible, you must know the contradictions as well as anyone. I gave a general example that you ignored so I’ll make it more specific. Thou shalt not kill, and yet God commands the destruction of the Amalekites. That’s not moral teaching, it’s an ancient blood feud.

 

[IFireflyl]

When I said “him” i was referring to the original person you said that to, I guess when you said “him” you were referring to this other person who responded. Yes I misunderstood what you were saying, you stand by calling cyberpunkd’s behavior despicable. You’re right you didn’t say you were joking, my mistake.

Since you study the bible, you must know the contradictions as well as anyone. I gave a general example that you ignored so I’ll make it more specific. Thou shalt not kill, and yet God commands the destruction of the Amalekites. That’s not moral teaching, it’s an ancient blood feud.

The word that was used in the commandment was "רציחה", which means murder. There is a distinction between killing and murdering. Murder is the unlawful killing of another. We make this same distinction today. The person who flips the switch that kills the man on death row isn't a murderer.

The Amalekites attacked the Israelites, unprovoked, when they were coming out of Egypt. Killing the people who attacked and killed God's people was divine judgement. God didn't simply go around ordering the deaths of people who weren't Israelites. God made commandments to destroy wickedness, and the sin of the Amalekites came to a head. God is patient, but patience doesn't equate to inaction. Do you even understand the atrocities committed by the different nations thousands of years ago? Do you realize that God also did this to the Israelites as well? God abhors sin. He loathes wickedness. He stamps this out both inside of Israel, and outside of Israel. An appropriate analogy would be to compare Hitler and the Nazis to the Amalekites. Why do you want to blame God for stamping out wickedness?

 

[TheDreadBaron]

The word that was used in the commandment was "רציחה", which means murder. There is a distinction between killing and murdering. Murder is the unlawful killing of another. We make this same distinction today. The person who flips the switch that kills the man on death row isn't a murderer.

The Amalekites attacked the Israelites, unprovoked, when they were coming out of Egypt. Killing the people who attacked and killed God's people was divine judgement. God didn't simply go around ordering the deaths of people who weren't Israelites. God made commandments to destroy wickedness, and the sin of the Amalekites came to a head. God is patient, but patience doesn't equate to inaction. Do you even understand the atrocities committed by the different nations thousands of years ago? Do you realize that God also did this to the Israelites as well? God abhors sin. He loathes wickedness. He stamps this out both inside of Israel, and outside of Israel. An appropriate analogy would be to compare Hitler and the Nazis to the Amalekites. Why do you want to blame God for stamping out wickedness?

The analogy would be that in response to Hitler god’s edict is to exterminate every last German. Your justification is as I suspected: they deserved to die because god said so. C’mon, we can do better than that with basic human solidarity. Do you support any genocides in modern times as well?

 

[IFireflyl]

The analogy would be that in response to Hitler god’s edict is to exterminate every last German. Your justification is as I suspected: they deserved to die because god said so. C’mon, we can do better than that with basic human solidarity. Do you support any genocides in modern times as well?

You're ignoring what I said. I never said they deserved to die just because God said so. You have zero context for your argument where you defend the horrific things these people groups did. I am not engaging in this pettiness any further. You're just the typical atheist who wants to shit on anything Biblical. Stay out of threads regarding a topic that you know nothing about, and that you don't care to learn about. Feel free to respond, but I'm not engaging with you anymore about the Bible since you, like funkygunther , only care about trying to prove you're right, and both of you ignore information to make it seem like I'm the idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Bye.

 

[Northeastmonk]

This thread triggered something close to home. I never liked strict Baptist churches. I went to a baptist kindergarten and they didn’t want us talking to anyone outside the church as a kid. They were fundamentalists to the core. I hated that. My personal opinion? They’re the most judgemental people on earth. My grandfather was a baptist minister and he is one of the most closed minded bigots I’ve ever met. My mother was sexually assaulted by an Assemblies of God pastor and the guy who did it killed himself years ago. You can probably see where I’m going with this.

I don’t have a good opinion about the Baptist church and I am not surprised your friend is dealing with this. The church is a haven for people to judge other people and use their beliefs as a way to tell others how to live their lives.

My mom turned on religious TV when I was a kid and all they did was ask people for money. I think the church is filled with some of the worst people on earth. They’re the cultist, the sheltered type, the holier than thou type, and I don’t believe God is actually in the church.

 

[funkygunther]

You're ignoring what I said. I never said they deserved to die just because God said so. You have zero context for your argument where you defend the horrific things these people groups did. I am not engaging in this pettiness any further. You're just the typical atheist who wants to shit on anything Biblical. Stay out of threads regarding a topic that you know nothing about, and that you don't care to learn about. Feel free to respond, but I'm not engaging with you anymore about the Bible since you, like funkygunther , only care about trying to prove you're right, and both of you ignore information to make it seem like I'm the idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about. Bye.

Thanks for dragging me into your typical response of victimisation and running away, how about learning from your mistakes and you actually staying out of threads you know nothing about since this appears a returning pattern for you. If every time I took a step I walked into a rake, I would become more aware of rakes.

I was purposefully ignoring your whole "objective" morality bullshit but as I've been kindly summoned let me address it: just because a book says something does not make it objective.