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CIA and MI6 worked with Libya/Gaddafi to carry out torture on suspected terrorists
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BroHuffman said:
You do realise that there is evidence to suggest torture doesn't even work? That people will say whatever you want under due stress/pain. Secondly, you're willing to allow for potential innocents to be tortured as collateral and all the other immoral possibilities too?
elrechazado
Banned
So, yes. Gotcha.BroHuffman said:
BroHuff: FBI interrogators never use those methods and have been getting good intel for decades. They use the same methods our people used in WW2, a marine literally wrote the book, and had the best success rate with humane treatment. CIA has been attaching electrodes to people's balls in the middle of the jungle since the Cold War and have earned the rep as being severe hardcase fuckups as a result.
we both come from the internet
so let us engage in brief exchange. For clarification: My initial mention of Presidents was referring to Bush. He did in fact claim that there was no wrongdoing and that Americans do not torture or assist in coordination of torture. His statement hinged on his definition of torture, because he knew that the US totally facilitated rendition and extreme interrogation techniques that will be determined as torture almost anywhere outside of US borders.
And guess what? Obama didn't start it, but he's paying the goddamned bill ain't he? While Bush sips ice tea and dreams of whiskey in Suburban Texas? He could hang that around Bush's head and just let fate take things where they may, but he's afraid to. He lacks faith in that way, and it makes me wonder about the rest of him. I'm not saying he's wrong though. But I'm not lying either when I say he could do something, but he's apparently doing nothing and even stated intentions to do such. Now you can't just go after people like Halliburton or the BushCo legacy of friends. And you certainly wouldn't telegraph your punch, but I really truly think that someone told our current President that his predecessor was off limits and to go after him would open Pandora's box. But that means justice suffers.
Blackace said:
we both come from the internet
so let us engage in brief exchange. For clarification: My initial mention of Presidents was referring to Bush. He did in fact claim that there was no wrongdoing and that Americans do not torture or assist in coordination of torture. His statement hinged on his definition of torture, because he knew that the US totally facilitated rendition and extreme interrogation techniques that will be determined as torture almost anywhere outside of US borders.And guess what? Obama didn't start it, but he's paying the goddamned bill ain't he? While Bush sips ice tea and dreams of whiskey in Suburban Texas? He could hang that around Bush's head and just let fate take things where they may, but he's afraid to. He lacks faith in that way, and it makes me wonder about the rest of him. I'm not saying he's wrong though. But I'm not lying either when I say he could do something, but he's apparently doing nothing and even stated intentions to do such. Now you can't just go after people like Halliburton or the BushCo legacy of friends. And you certainly wouldn't telegraph your punch, but I really truly think that someone told our current President that his predecessor was off limits and to go after him would open Pandora's box. But that means justice suffers.
RustyNails
Member
Ah yes, the '24' scenario. The ticking time bomb. Lets play more games, k.BroHuffman said:
Did Joker tell Batman where Rachel was after Batman thrashed him left and right?
elrechazado
Banned
If we can save just one person from the disappearing pencil trick, it's worth torturing a hundred children imo.RustyNails said:
Kalnos said:
I have no idea whether torture works or doesn't work. I'm not debating that.
I was just going over my thoughts about the US torturing known terrorists. Guess it got a little out of hand. And maybe I'm a little surprised about some of the people responding to me in this thread. Probably great, moral people, I just wouldn't want them making decisions about national defense.
Pathetic Basement Virgin
Banned
Woorloog said:
Slept on post.
elrechazado
Banned
You said there should be no moral consideration in the pursuit of terrorists. Surely you can imagine that they could still be some things that could be done without being so absolutely amoral as to be evil. I hope?BroHuffman said:
I'm all about lining up tons of guns and 100 foot tall mother fucking mechs on our borders shoulder to shoulder.
National defense has nothing to do with kidnapping Hassan from his bed and breaking the bones in his hand until he figures out if he makes up a story about his dickhead of a cousin that he might be allowed to sit in a dark locked room for 10 years instead of experiencing white hot pain while being screamed at in his neighbor's language.
The trick is, they made you believe that is does.
National defense has nothing to do with kidnapping Hassan from his bed and breaking the bones in his hand until he figures out if he makes up a story about his dickhead of a cousin that he might be allowed to sit in a dark locked room for 10 years instead of experiencing white hot pain while being screamed at in his neighbor's language.
The trick is, they made you believe that is does.
RustyNails
Member
Batman's identity is worth more than dead copselrechazao said:
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
akira28 said:we both come from the internet
And guess what? Obama didn't start it, but he's paying the goddamned bill ain't he? While Bush sips ice tea and dreams of whiskey in Suburban Texas? He could hang that around Bush's head and just let fate take things where they may, but he's afraid to. He lacks faith in that way, and it makes me wonder about the rest of him. I'm not saying he's wrong though. But I'm not lying either when I say he could do something, but he's apparently doing nothing and even stated intentions to do such. Now you can't just go after people like Halliburton or the BushCo legacy of friends. And you certainly wouldn't telegraph your punch, but I really truly think that someone told our current President that his predecessor was off limits and to go after him would open Pandora's box. But that means justice suffers.
Going after Bush and his admin would serve no justice and start a war in congress like we have not seen since Rutherford B. Hayes was called Rutherfraud.
An all out war with the right and the left would be so counter productive that the justice served might not be worth it..
Blackace said:
I don't know man. Something needs to give, otherwise politicians will continue on with their reckless, immoral, cowboy antics with little to no fear of repercussion or accountability. There needs to be something major to bring out the desperately needed political reform.
Blackace said:
You mean the justice of citizens sleeping at night in fear of their own government? And that fear being legitimate and deserved because their leadership is willfully unlawful and immoral and unaccountable to any consequences because bringing those consequences about would be complicated? That war needs to be faught sooner than later. Like a band-aid. Or do you want to wait until its you that has to pick up arms and defend yourself instead of just the laws and constitution of this land?
People actually commit to political dynasties these days. We had commerical dynasties before them which ran about un-impugned and even manipulated politics to an unacceptable degree. This was turn of the century America in the late 1800s. They were tamped down but it took decades and it was a fucking battle that changed our country. Worker unions and commercial laws and the earlier forbears of human and civil rights came from those changes and from the battles, a different kind of civil war faught by different armies of citizens on different fronts. Today those treaties are up for renewal and some would rather see them destroyed. Commerce and politics and the elite power structure of this nation are working together to change the future of this nation, and they are not thinking of the citizenry when they are engineering this future. When you're too afraid to challenge them, youre telling them that they can do what they want, and that their power justifies them.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
nib95 said:
Fighting as many wars as we are, with the dollar in the shape it is in, you think the timing is right to start a polictical war of this likes at home?
Also it is funny how it is "Obama's fault" rather than Clinton's when he said nothing of Sr.'s exploits..
Blackace said:
I say the sooner the better. We can dilly dally around and let it continue blindly or deal with the problem, and as many problems as possible in one go. Reform of such gargantuan nature is never pretty. If any times a good time, with the chips down, I'd say now was as good as any other, whilst public unrest and trust/faith in the government is already waining.
Clinton needs to enjoy life today because he's earned his own place in hell. I seriously pray that Obama doesn't make the same comprimised choices as the triangulating moderate business oriented Democrat that Clinton was. I'm a democratic socialist, I act like I love Bubba, but I still know what he did. His choices helped in some areas and hurt us in others. We're back at the bottom of the well, treading water again, but now we have Nafta and China trade to help drown us.
I blame Obama for what he does. He said his admin won't touch them. He didn't even have to say it, except that someone wanted to hear it. And wanted us to hear it.
Fuck Civil. Martin's dead and they gave him a big rock in the park for his troubles. He's a commercial product now, when once he was a fucking time bomb and represented something rather un-Civil indeed. He was the placid face of Revolution and as soon as it looked like he might succeed, they made him a non-person and created a legend that they could mitigate and control
We Americans. We the world. We deserve justice. As long as we keep waiting for the right time to hold our own leadership accountable for people they hurt or laws they break, they'll keep coming up with debt crises and new foreign conflict. They have known about debt inequality since Regean. Black man sits in the seat and guess when it suddenly becomes utmost importance to pay the tab? Oh shit no, you gotta be responsible, you gotta pay your bills. don't you know you can't spend outside your means, first, black, president?
I blame Obama for what he does. He said his admin won't touch them. He didn't even have to say it, except that someone wanted to hear it. And wanted us to hear it.
Fuck Civil. Martin's dead and they gave him a big rock in the park for his troubles. He's a commercial product now, when once he was a fucking time bomb and represented something rather un-Civil indeed. He was the placid face of Revolution and as soon as it looked like he might succeed, they made him a non-person and created a legend that they could mitigate and control
We Americans. We the world. We deserve justice. As long as we keep waiting for the right time to hold our own leadership accountable for people they hurt or laws they break, they'll keep coming up with debt crises and new foreign conflict. They have known about debt inequality since Regean. Black man sits in the seat and guess when it suddenly becomes utmost importance to pay the tab? Oh shit no, you gotta be responsible, you gotta pay your bills. don't you know you can't spend outside your means, first, black, president?
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Isn't it the CIA's job to be secret bastards? Overthrowing the Iranian government for BP was only the beginning.
Bit by bit doesn't happen unless someone is in their face every minute of every hour taking those pieces, bit by bit. That's why we need the outrage and that's why we need the leaks and blame, because without it we'll be to comfortable to change anything until it's our asses literally on the line.
Blackace
if you see me in a fight with a bear, don't help me fool, help the bear!
akira28 said:
Well I doubt you will get that when we are as thin as we are.. Timing is the most important part... if Obama can start pulling out like promised then you might have a window to start the funk you want..
Blackace said:
You're right about that. Change seemed like it took forever to get here, but it was all about the timing. It takes hard times to get things started, but we might get there yet. Don't get me wrong, I don't want things to get crazy. But I feel like the way things are headed, the way things are changing, politics of today are showing us we can't just go the normal route. Just from the way they are fighting against that one man so hard. If the game is still rigged, another one will get started as soon as enough people see.
speculawyer
Member
If Syria goes down, we'll probably get the same type of dump. :-/
NathanMcMahon
Banned
BroHuffman said:
Just out of curiosity, I'm a moral person who was in the military and handled decisions abut national defense, albeit meager versions of what constitutes national defense. Nevertheless, I find this sort of treatment of human beings, no matter who they are or what they have done, repugnant and below the character of this country, at least in the spirit of why I took that oath and what I promised to protect. Am I not good enough for your idea of a decision maker because I believe the people who perpetrate these heinous acts are as much a criminal as the terrorists, and deserve no protection from us? I don't want to fight about this because I can't be convinced that your opinion is right as much as you can't be convinced that my opinion is right even though the moral imperative is correct, but I am intrigued with how you will respond.
I am Jacks complete lack of surprise!
It is a well known fact that the CIA with support from MI6 and governments around the world tortured suspects.
The American government instituted the use of water boarding, an ancient form of torture used by the Spanish during the inquisition.
These suspect where taken to countries outside of the US that had lax human rights legislations and were already known for torture themselves.
This behaviour was supported from the very top of the Bush Admin (Cheney in particular).
And the US calls out other nations over their methods (China etc) and call terrorists inhuman.
They say hypocrisy breeds hatred!
It is a well known fact that the CIA with support from MI6 and governments around the world tortured suspects.
The American government instituted the use of water boarding, an ancient form of torture used by the Spanish during the inquisition.
These suspect where taken to countries outside of the US that had lax human rights legislations and were already known for torture themselves.
This behaviour was supported from the very top of the Bush Admin (Cheney in particular).
And the US calls out other nations over their methods (China etc) and call terrorists inhuman.
They say hypocrisy breeds hatred!
elrechazado
Banned
Obama hasn't continued any bush policies, such as extrajudicial targetted killings.Jburton said:
NathanMcMahon
Banned
elrechazao said:
Your sarcasm is so hard to gauge. Damn you internet for not having a sarcasm meter. Firefox needs an add-on.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
"Morally wrong decision that is best for the country"
Man, it's so easy to say stuff like this, isn't it? That is, unless someone that is wronged by that "morally wrong decision" is your husband, your wife, your children, your family, your lover, your friend.......
...And then people act surprised when America or any other country is criticized or even hated for something like this. But even worse than those who are surprised, are those who just shrugged it off and say "yeah, so what?"
Man, it's so easy to say stuff like this, isn't it? That is, unless someone that is wronged by that "morally wrong decision" is your husband, your wife, your children, your family, your lover, your friend.......
...And then people act surprised when America or any other country is criticized or even hated for something like this. But even worse than those who are surprised, are those who just shrugged it off and say "yeah, so what?"
elrechazao said:
CIA drone strikes in Pakistan causing civilian deaths is heinous enough.
Obama ain't no angel.
And just because Bush is no longer in power and some of these activities have stopped does not excuse or absolve the US of being guilty of torture and hypocrisy.
Also state sponsorship of Israel and its terrorist acts is not exactly without hypocrisy.
Laughing Banana said:
Besides you trying to act morally superior to me here, did you have a point?
Everything isn't black and white and sometimes the black choice is the correct choice to take. insert dick joke. So I'd want someone open to multiple options depending on the situation. That's all I was trying to say with the PM.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
BroHuffman said:
Huh, do I look like I'm trying to act morally superior to you? But you are right that everything isn't always necessarily black and white--just don't act surprised when it leads to occurrences of suicide bombers or terrorists or the like eager to do more and more harm in the long run.
Feelings of hatred can run very deep, especially if the ones that get wronged by that "correct" black choice is a friend, family, lover, etc. I know this by experience. It's easy to say stuff like this when you are not involved.
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