Circumcision.. What do Evolutionary Biologists/Naturalists/Darwinists think?

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Audioboxer said:
Without a doubt. I think the waters get murky as the debate often devolves into "well I still feel pleasure during sex!".

Well duh, we all do. The "technicalities" around sensitivity are important, because factually speaking, yes, there is a change. Part of that change isn't just the removal of skin, it's what happens to the glans when it has to deal with being constantly rubbed by cotton (or silk if you got some $$$ to spend on underwear!).
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I don't think sensitivity is the end all, be all though. Though anecdotal, I have a friend who is uncircumcised who says he can't enjoy oral sex because he's TOO sensitive and it's unenjoyable for him.

Like I said before, people can shout up and down the hills about sensitivity, but I can't miss something I never had experience with. Therefore, I don't care. I'm happy I was circumcised as a newborn and that's about it.
 
These threads will never go anywhere. Thankfully here in Europe we don't do this like ye do in the US. It's crazy that people are promoting this because it looks neater. Some of ye must spend a lot of time staring at ye're penis. One work Christmas party we had a guy I'm his fifties drunkenly telling us he wishes his parent didn't get him circumcised. When you put your clothes on in the morning you can feel. After a while you can't as you get used to them desensitised to them. Same as if you walked around in your bare feet all the time after a while your feet would get hard and you would feel it. Only time ever seen any cut was in porn and watching the guys having to twist their cock like it's a tap or something to cum never seemed great to me. But as long as ye are getting sex enjoy it.
 
Burgess_101 said:
I am from the UK and me and my two brothers were circumcised due to my grandfather being Muslim.

I strongly resent the fact I was circumcised for the reasons of religion and the thought that choice was taken away from me lately has really made me resentful.
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yeah my parents are jewish (they still claim that i'm jewish even though i'm atheist, but i'll let them have it i guess), and my circumcision was also for religious reasons

i don't really harbor any ill will towards my parents about it, but i do resent the fact that it happened, and wish it didn't

manakel said:
Little toe assists with balance, walking, running, etc. So no, I wouldn't be okay with that.
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tried to explicitly get a .org source for this one

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2006-06/1150214043.An.r.html

you could replace that last sentence with foreskin
 
manakel said:
I don't think sensitivity is the end all, be all though. Though anecdotal, I have a friend who is uncircumcised who says he can't enjoy oral sex because he's TOO sensitive and it's unenjoyable for him.

Like I said before, people can shout up and down the hills about sensitivity, but I can't miss something I never had experience with. Therefore, I don't care. I'm happy I was circumcised as a newborn and that's about it.
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Of course, it's just about answering honestly is there a change or isn't there.

So it's not about making you or anyone else unhappy, not at all. I mean, if you and anyone else are capable of having sex, then, there you go, as there are some people out there that for whatever reasons can't.

Everyone should enjoy what they can do. The awareness around circumcision shouldn't be about beating men with chat/figures/stats/shame who've had it done, but trying to persuade future parents to stop doing it (unless medically a doctor says it needs to be done).

Figures for America over the past years would be interesting to see. You guys seemed to do it rather often purely for aesthetic reasons, in amongst religious. It's always been done pretty rarely in the UK. I have had a bit of the "ahhh you're circumcised!" in the UK, because it's far more uncommon than common.
 
manakel said:
I don't think sensitivity is the end all, be all though. Though anecdotal, I have a friend who is uncircumcised who says he can't enjoy oral sex because he's TOO sensitive and it's unenjoyable for him.

Like I said before, people can shout up and down the hills about sensitivity, but I can't miss something I never had experience with. Therefore, I don't care. I'm happy I was circumcised as a newborn and that's about it.
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Moving the goalposts. You said earlier when people were comparing removing other body parts that abilities and senses would be diminished and impaired so it's not comparable. Then when confronted with the fact removing the foreskin also diminishes and impairs sexual pleasure you change your response to, "Don't care." Waste of time.
 
xelios said:
Moving the goalposts. You said earlier when people were comparing removing other body parts that abilities and senses would be diminished and impaired so it's not comparable. Then when confronted with the fact removing the foreskin also diminishes and impairs sexual pleasure you change your response to, "Don't care." Waste of time.
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Are you serious? I'm not going to continue going round and round in circles with you and other posters who keep posting the same thing. My original point is that removing an ear, a little toe, or whatever other body part you and others seem to find similar to foreskin..that negatively impacts their life in a substantial way. Removing an ear means difficulty hearing. Removing a toe means more difficulty walking or running (http://www.healthline.com/human-body-maps/little-toe). Removing foreskin does not impact one's life in any substantial way.

If you can't comprehend that, then, sorry about it. I'm not explaining myself anymore.
 
I kinda wish my parents didn't do it to me. I need more girth.
 
manakel said:
I don't think sensitivity is the end all, be all though. Though anecdotal, I have a friend who is uncircumcised who says he can't enjoy oral sex because he's TOO sensitive and it's unenjoyable for him.

Like I said before, people can shout up and down the hills about sensitivity, but I can't miss something I never had experience with. Therefore, I don't care. I'm happy I was circumcised as a newborn and that's about it.
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How can you not care about something yet be happy about it?

manakel said:
Are you serious? I'm not going to continue going round and round in circles with you and other posters who keep posting the same thing. My original point is that removing an ear, a little toe, or whatever other body part you and others seem to find similar to foreskin..that negatively impacts their life in a substantial way. Removing an ear means difficulty hearing. Removing a toe means more difficulty walking or running (http://www.healthline.com/human-body-maps/little-toe). Removing foreskin does not impact one's life in any substantial way.

If you can't comprehend that, then, sorry about it. I'm not explaining myself anymore.
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What about removing ear lobes? You never addressed that.
 
Gravy Boat said:
How can you not care about something yet be happy about it?



What about removing ear lobes? You never addressed that.
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I don't care about being more sensitive because I've never experienced it, but I'm happy with being circumcised. Is that hard to understand?

Couldn't answer you about earlobes. Some people's are attached and some people's are detached so, maybe evolution is already at work ;)
 
manakel said:
Are you serious? I'm not going to continue going round and round in circles with you and other posters who keep posting the same thing. My original point is that removing an ear, a little toe, or whatever other body part you and others seem to find similar to foreskin..that negatively impacts their life in a substantial way. Removing an ear means difficulty hearing. Removing a toe means more difficulty walking or running (http://www.healthline.com/human-body-maps/little-toe). Removing foreskin does not impact one's life in any substantial way.

If you can't comprehend that, then, sorry about it. I'm not explaining myself anymore.
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For what it's worth I do kind of agree with you.

However, technicalities about "substantial" only go so far for me, as I still see it as genital mutilation when done for impractical reasons. As I disclaimed in my first post, it isn't on the level of FGM, no, but it is a practice we need to start taking more seriously rather than just "loling it off" cause "dude, can you still fuck?".

Parents should not be doing it to children, unless strictly advised by a doctor. Children can, when an adult, have whatever cosmetic surgery they go and pay for. Basically, it's not a decision any parent should be forcing on a non-consenting baby, or child. There are no demonstratable health benefits (cleanliness is... cleanliness, wash your dick and hey, clean) and religious reasons for barbarism are still mutilation in 2017. FGM primarily comes from... "religious reasons".

So posters are probably getting riled up at you not because you don't care, but because a lack of taking this seriously plays into societal norms that parents should have free reign to YOLO their children's foreskins away. Without challenge, or without any sort of societal/medical intervention.
 
Well, batshit insanity in this thread aside, I've been inspired to try and de-keratinize my head just to spite the world. Looking at some St Ives Alpha Hydroxy lotion to exfoliate + moisturize and some sort of sleeve to keep everything covered. Looking forward to having feeling in my dick again, tyvm.
 
manakel said:
I don't care about being more sensitive because I've never experienced it, but I'm happy with being circumcised. Is that hard to understand?

Couldn't answer you about earlobes. Some people's are attached and some people's are detached so, maybe evolution is already at work ;)
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Yea it is hard to understand because it makes no sense. We don't just give up on colourblind people, we find ways to help them. Find me a colourblind person that would keep their condition if they had a choice.

Earlobes have no biological function therefore you should have no problem removing them from your kid at birth. If you do, you're a hypocrite.
 
Gravy Boat said:
Yea it is hard to understand because it makes no sense. We don't just give up on colourblind people, we find ways to help them. Find me a colourblind person that would keep their condition if they had a choice.

Earlobes have no biological function therefore you should have no problem removing them from your kid at birth. If you do, you're a hypocrite.
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But I'm moving goal posts? What does being colorblind have to do with circumcision? Or anything I mentioned?

Audioboxer said:
For what it's worth I do kind of agree with you.

However, technicalities about "substantial" only go so far for me, as I still see it as genital mutilation when done for impractical reasons. As I disclaimed in my first post, it isn't on the level of FGM, no, but it is a practice we need to start taking more seriously rather than just "loling it off" cause "dude, can you still fuck?".

Parents should not be doing it to children, unless strictly advised by a doctor. Children can, when an adult, have whatever cosmetic surgery they go and pay for. Basically, it's not a decision any parent should be forcing on a non-consenting baby, or child. There are no demonstratable health benefits (cleanliness is... cleanliness, wash your dick and hey, clean) and religious reasons for barbarism are still mutilation in 2017. FGM primarily comes from... "religious reasons".
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Thank you for your rational, sensible posts. I appreciate your input and approaching the topic in a civil way!
 
manakel said:
But I'm moving goal posts? What does being colorblind have to do with circumcision? Or anything I mentioned?


Thank you for your rational, sensible posts. I appreciate your input and approaching the topic in a civil way!
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As I added in an edit you didn't catch, people are just getting a bit riled up at you, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt it's just because they care and see it as an important issue, not because they personally have any ill-will towards you.

Societal change doesn't happen overnight and I can only imagine myself how I'd feel if I had it done from birth, playing more heavily into the "I don't know any better and my dick still works fine?" group.

I had a small window look into having it both ways, although it was done as an early teenager precisely because puberty was really kicking off and at high school relationships and interests in girls start to become more of a thought! Basically, I had tight foreskin issues, and while not incredibly severe ones, it was causing some discomfort. Obviously, stretching exercises and things were discussed, and partially tried, but surgery was really a sort it out never have to worry again solution.

That was opted for, and the UK NHS covered my surgery as it wasn't simply cosmetic, but medical. At that age you remember everything... which I can't say for a baby :P

Gravy Boat said:
I never said you were moving goal posts. How is it not comparable in your 'can't miss what I never had' argument?

But it doesn't matter, your continued avoidance of the questions tells me you are indeed a hypocrite.
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Duuude, the guys a bit convinced in his position, but as I just said to him it can be "difficult" to see things any other way when it happened to you at birth and you don't know any better. I agree it's important to challenge minds that think that way but going in too hard will probably just send him away pissed off. Either way I do hope he can rethink some of what he is saying, and while accept he doesn't mind, the greater good is trying to change societal norms, especially in America.
 
manakel said:
But I'm moving goal posts? What does being colorblind have to do with circumcision? Or anything I mentioned?
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I never said you were moving goal posts. How is it not comparable in your 'can't miss what I never had' argument?

But it doesn't matter, your continued avoidance of the questions tells me you are indeed a hypocrite.
 
manakel said:
but I can't miss something I never had experience with. Therefore, I don't care.
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manakel said:
My point being, I can't miss something I've never had experience with.
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manakel said:
I don't care about being more sensitive because I've never experienced it,
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You seem to think this is a good point as you continue repeating it, but it's not. "The child will never know the difference," doesn't make it okay to perform an unnecessary medical procedure that violates them, removes part of their body, causes them pain and puts them at risk of infection.
 
Burgess_101 said:
I am from the UK and me and my two brothers were circumcised due to my grandfather being Muslim.

I strongly resent the fact I was circumcised for the reasons of religion and the thought that choice was taken away from me lately has really made me resentful.
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Same here but because of my father. Best part is that he had it done to me in secret because my mother was against it completely and was pro-choice about this. Apparently even warned him that it might completely backfire when puberty would hit.

I can safely assure you, the moment the realisation happened there was one hell of a screaming match.
 
Cyanity said:
The problem with foreskin restoration is that you have to hang a weight off of your dick for years to see full restoration. It's frustrating as hell, and I don't know if I have the patience for that. Moisturizing the head and wearing a sleeve to restore proper sensitivity seems like a much more realistic goal.
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Actually, the TLC Tugger doesn't use weights.

:lol
 
For that relative that wishes he was, there are a whole lot of men who wish they weren't or had the choice. There are foreskin restoratoin circles, but that of course doesn't bring back the lost nerve endings in the foreskin (20,000, to the glans 4000, the clitorises 8000...They do nothing?)

When it comes to a child I just can't wrap my head around robbing them of the right to personal autonomy for when they grow into a sexually mature adult. If they really want they can get it removed later on, but they can't grow the nerves back. It really aught to be only legal for medical necessity, not parental sex preferences.
 
LordOfChaos said:
For that relative that wishes he was, there are a whole lot of men who wish they weren't or had the choice. There are foreskin restoratoin circles, but that of course doesn't bring back the lost nerve endings in the foreskin (20,000, to the glans 4000, the clitorises 8000...They do nothing?)

When it comes to a child I just can't wrap my head around robbing them of the right to personal autonomy for when they grow into a sexually mature adult. If they really want they can get it removed later on, but they can't grow the nerves back. It really aught to be only legal for medical necessity, not parental sex preferences.
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Well said.

I simply cannot wrap my head around the logic of many here.
 
People here are being very dramatic and judgmental about this. I had my boys circumcised for non-religious reasons. The doctor asked my wife or I (can't remember which) if we wanted it done and we said "sure." Probably put 1/100 the consideration of it than most in this thread. There was no "reason" as it's not a big fucking deal and hasn't been for thousands of years.

I resent the implication that it's even in the same ballpark as female genital mutilation as the goal there is specifically to eliminate orgasms.
 
It's mutilation. No reason to ever do that for non-medical reasons and forcing the procedure on a baby is so utterly insane.

biggersmaller said:
People here are being very dramatic and judgmental about this. I had my boys circumcised for non-religious reasons. The doctor asked my wife or I (can't remember which) if we wanted it done and we said "sure." Probably put 1/100 the consideration of it than most in this thread. There was no "reason"
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Well, at least you're honest about your complete and utter lack of independent thought and critical thinking.

I resent the implication that it's even in the same ballpark as female genital mutilation as the goal there is specifically to eliminate orgasms.
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You don't get to resent anything since you admit you didn't even put a single thought into your action.

Btw, circumcision was spread in the US for similar reasons as FMG (puritanical BS), just not as drastic.
 
I had no idea at all that this was a common thing to do in the US. Quite surprised. (assuming you're from the US)

What exactly is the purpose of circumcision for Americans? (beyond religious reasons)

Personally, I would say don't do it because there doesn't seem to be any kind of sensible reason for it and it can't be reversed..


What exactly do you want to know from evolutionary biologists? How the foreskin evolved the way it is and its functions?
 
Use your head! Never ask Gaf anything serious. You're the adult, do whatever you like. I will say i have a friend that works in a nursing home and she is adamant that all men should be circed based on issues that arise in the elderly.
 
Wessie said:
Use your head! Never ask Gaf anything serious. You're the adult, do whatever you like. I will say i have a friend that works in a nursing home and she is adamant that all men should be circed based on issues that arise in the elderly.
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'Never ask Gaf anything serious!'
'So, anyway, here's my friend's opinion...'

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anyway, its interesting to see how this issue has become so muddied because, to me, there are literally only two factors at play:

1) its not necessary.
2) its only popular because a religious bloke didn't want you to masturbate.

I really don't understand how people fight tooth and claw for something like this that has literally no basis in reality. I mean, I would guess that the cut people here are just a bit sensitive to the issue but its apparently been established they're less sensitive.
I couldn't resist, I'm only kidding.
 
UFO said:
Do it. It's normal. Uncircumcised penises look gross.
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Guevara said:
We do a lot of optional things to attract and keep a mate, and this is one of them.
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Kyne said:
I'm glad my parents had it done for me when I was a baby.

My 2cents.
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darscot said:
I know two guys that had to get it done as an adult. It was fucking horrific for both. I took my son and he made a a small hey wtf kinda yell and that's it. Was over in about 5 seconds. The two guys I knew spent a week in hospital. Fuck that shit get it done.
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Mighty Chin said:
Snip it
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You really do deserve your president: an ignorant leader for an ignorant people.

Disgusting.
 
ReplacementPelican said:
2) its only popular because a religious bloke didn't want you to masturbate.
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Do you honestly believe that is what's running through people's minds when they choose to circumcise their baby? Maybe in like, 1920.

lukeskymac said:
You really do deserve your president: an ignorant leader for an ignorant people.

Disgusting.
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Circumcision is more prevalent in the US therefore we deserve Trump as president?? I'm pretty sure circumcision was happening when Obama was president, and when Clinton was president. What a trashtastic response.
 
stonesak said:
Overreact much?
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I agree with the poster. For how progressive and rational Gaf is, this THE one matter that a huge part of Americangaf acts irrationally because of societal norms. I expected such defense of infant circumcision to come from extreme republicans, that act like this is "the way God intended, the perfect American penis", not the average gaffer.
 
Another day, another batch of people refusing to accept how fucked up it is to remove bits of their baby's body without any sort of critical thinking or remorse put into the decision.


But hey, at least your permanently desensitized dicks look "normal"! Can't have you doing something that goes against good old American "normalcy" now, can we?
 
Abilidebob said:
I agree with the poster. For how progressive and rational Gaf is, this THE one matter that a huge part of Americangaf acts irrationally because of societal norms. I expected such defense of infant circumcision to come from extreme republicans, that act like this is "the way God intended, the perfect American penis", not the average gaffer.
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Wouldn't that argument work AGAINST circumcision? Clearly god intended penises to be uncircumcised if that's how we were born, no?
 
Cyanity said:
Another day, another batch of people refusing to accept how fucked up it is to remove bits of their baby's body without any sort of critical thinking or remorse put into the decision.
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Agreed. I think it's absolutely insane to defend the practice of circumcision. Also, why the hell would parents ever willingly subject their babies to that much pain?

If you want a circumcision - fine. Do whatever you want. It's your body. But don't start mutilating babies, just because your book tells you to do so. Better yet, don't start mutilating babies, at all.
 
manakel said:
Wouldn't that argument work AGAINST circumcision? Clearly god intended penises to be uncircumcised if that's how we were born, no?
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Most of the world that still circumcise their babies do it for religious reasons, and the practice started in the US because of a religious nutcase. Of course, I don't think most of Americans still do it because of those reasons, but they still do it because "it's the way it's always been" or "because I want his to look like mine" or "because my dad did it, and his dad did it and so on". Or, because as some posters said because "women think it's gross!". All those, honestly, aren't much different from religious reasons.
 
Wessie said:
Use your head! Never ask Gaf anything serious. You're the adult, do whatever you like. I will say i have a friend that works in a nursing home and she is adamant that all men should be circed based on issues that arise in the elderly.
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I prefer all women stay in the kitchen but people tell me this is a sexist opinion!
 
manakel said:
Do you honestly believe that is what's running through people's minds when they choose to circumcise their baby? Maybe in like, 1920.
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tradition
trəˈdɪʃ(ə)n
noun
1. the transmission of customs or beliefs from generation to generation, or the fact of being passed on in this way.

Of course I don't think that but that's why people started doing in the States, now everyone just does it because they think its the done thing. I felt that was pretty obvious if I'm being totally honest.
 
It's considered a cosmetic surgery for a reason. It's not needed. Most of the world does not circumcise.

Leave that penis alone. If your son wants to get circumcized at a later age, that's his choice.
 
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