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[ultratruman]

There's a lot of sentimentality and heart pouring over this stuff, which is understandable. However, it's not going to change anything and policy shouldn't be based on the fate of people we feel sorry for.

In August 2011, after almost 2,000 men, women and children were gassed to death in a Damascus suburb, Obama said Assad's days were numbered. And yet, because of fierce opposition from the left in the US and the UK to any military action against the Syrian government, nothing happened.

Now, 5 years later, Obama is heading out the door and Assad is back at the international table. Prompted by stirring images, the same people who opposed a military solution to this crisis are now making vacuous calls for the 'international community' to 'end this war now'. It's not enough.

This little boy with his blown out eye was one of the lucky ones, 22 kids died in that airstrike. Syria should be a testament to the price of inaction.

Whether Omran is a cute child or not, whether we like him or not, is irrelevant. He, like the rest of the Syrian people, are human beings and deserve protection. What caused us to abandon this law, more fundamental than any charter or UN resolution?

 

[spineduke]

The uprising also didn't have a hope of success. Assad had and still has the support of a significant number of civilians as well as a very large portion of the armed forces. The uprising would have always had to get through that somehow. There are also plenty of good people who are Assad supporters who wanted Syria to avoid the chaos the other Arab Spring countries had been going through aside from Tunisia.

Nobody of sane mind would want chaos. I'm afraid to know how much of Hama's history had an influence on Bashars decision making. He chose wrongly and killed everything in his path. Do you think he was of sane mind?

 

[trembli0s]

If people want the issue solved it's going to have to be done without US support/troops.

There is absolutely no stomach anymore for getting involved in ME conflicts where all the sides are varying degrees of "bad".

Of course, Europe let its military capabilities atrophy so badly that it can no longer act in these situations anyways.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Are Russia or Assad army were responsible for this?

 

[TomServo]

War needs to be taken out of the abstract as much as possible, and at every opportunity. Everyone needs to understand the human cost.

Agree 100%.

 

[Pomerlaw]

Are Russia or Assad army were responsible for this?

Russia said it's not their fault. They always deny everything anyway.

We could waste days to find who's fault his this in the past. Everyone has blood on their hands.

I hope people in charge concentrate on what can be done NOW.

 

[bengraven]

He reminds me so much of my son at that age that it's hard to watch him in shock, wiping the blood and looking at it...fuck my lungs are empty just typing this.

I just want so badly for them to stop filming him and comfort him.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

You really can't see the difference between the actions of Russia and the United States?
wow.

well, the united states is better at making people believe they are the "good guys", I'll give you that.

 

[Kin5290]

well, the united states is better at making people believe they are the "good guys", I'll give you that.

The United States doesn't intentionally bomb civilians, unlike the Russians and Syrians. This is a very important distinction.

 

[Blablurn]

What kind of man must al assad be to seriously know about situations like the kid has gone through and yet still continue?

Speechless

 

[AcademicSaucer]

The United States doesn't intentionally bomb civilians, unlike the Russians and Syrians. This is a very important distinction.

No, they just make "terrible mistakes" that no one takes responsability for.

 

[Sqrt_minus_one]

Whether Omran is a cute child or not, whether we like him or not, is irrelevant. He, like the rest of the Syrian people, are human beings and deserve protection. What caused us to abandon this law, more fundamental than any charter or UN resolution?

Because you cannot provide the protection you are calling for?

The situation is tainted by local politics to ignore this and charge in, even with the best of intentions will only worsen it.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Are Russia or Assad army were responsible for this?

They are the only one bombing Aleppo right now. Anycase, these kind of thing is happening everyday if you follow some Aleppo twitter account. Scary stuff and depressing.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What kind of man must al assad be to seriously know about situations like the kid has gone through and yet still continue?

Speechless

The son of his father.

 

[Abstrusity]

Whether Omran is a cute child or not, whether we like him or not, is irrelevant. He, like the rest of the Syrian people, are human beings and deserve protection. What caused us to abandon this law, more fundamental than any charter or UN resolution?

Fear. It's another proxy war quagmire in another hellish place with the Russians involved, with no guarantee it will turn out well, after over a decade of war in another hellish place. Sometimes that means people will die. Sometimes that means our people will die.

But people live and people die. That's all there is to it. Directly fighting Assad means directly engaging the Russians in this case.

If it were ever about the shallow justification of a moral obligation, then Israel would have been stopped long ago. We can ill afford another war, especially against the remains of a super power.

In the process, many more innocent people will die. Incidents and accidents will further inflame the dozens of regional and religious conflicts that have gone on for decades.

It sounds callous because it is. But it's also the way of the world as we have created it. In doing the moral thing, you endanger the lives of countless more.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Fear. It's another proxy war quagmire in another hellish place with the Russians involved, with no guarantee it will turn out well, after over a decade of war in another hellish place. Sometimes that means people will die. Sometimes that means our people will die.

But people live and people die. That's all there is to it. Directly fighting Assad means directly engaging the Russians in this case.

If it were ever about the shallow justification of a moral obligation, then Israel would have been stopped long ago. We can ill afford another war, especially against the remains of a super power.

In the process, many more innocent people will die. Incidents and accidents will further inflame the dozens of regional and religious conflicts that have gone on for decades.

It sounds callous because it is. But it's also the way of the world as we have created it. In doing the moral thing, you endanger the lives of countless more.

Imposing a no-fly zone is pretty easy and would not involve direct confrontation with Russia since they are not ready to do "all-in" to secure their mediterranean opening.
It's what the Syrian opposition is calling for, for the last 5 years now.

I agree for the rest of the moral dilemma. Since the Iraq quagmire, i understand Obama position. Yet i think it's immoral. It's like Obama would have been the perfect post-9.11 US President and Bush the perfect Syrian crisis one.

 

[Liamario]

As a father of a 4 year old, I can assure you this kid is totally innocent as to how the world works. He shouldn't be exposed to this stuff, much less be a victim of it.
It's heartbreaking and infuriating that fathers with kids of their own are involved in this crap. Children are blank canvasses and we're pissing all over their hopes and their future.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

It seems that one of the photographers in that video with this kid, was in another video smiling while the Harakat Nour al-Din al-Zenki militants behead a 10 year old boy .

This war is all kinds of fucked up.

 

[Piggus]

well, the united states is better at making people believe they are the "good guys", I'll give you that.

We're dammed if we do, dammed if we don't. People bitch at us when we intervene and bitch at us when we sit on the sidelines. Either way, making tactical mistakes is not the same as actively targeting civilians or carpet bombing neighborhoods with zero regard for collateral damage.

 

[Phantast2k]

That's fantastical and you know it. It ignores the 'moderate' rebels decapitating kids who would be in charge.

I know the case you're talking about and it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be. It's not clear wether that person was underage, however it's been pretty much established that he was a (child) soldier. Also not sure why you're using plural there.

Plural of beheading can, however, be used when for instance when talking about Assadist Suqur Al-Sahara who made decapitation their markee move. What if they were in charge. Oh.

 

[pablito]

My works internet won't allow me to watch. I'd probably tear up from the descriptions I've read. The picture alone makes me want to go hug people. Fuck.

 

[Azih]

I know the case you're talking about and it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be

There was also the video of a moderate rebel eating a heart and the story early on in the war of moderate rebels attempting to turn a POW into an unwitting human bomb.

The only side I'm on here is of the civilians caught in the crossfire.

 

[Damerman]

Saw this the yesterday. That shit broke me. I was devastated.

 

[Heshinsi]

We're dammed if we do, dammed if we don't. People bitch at us when we intervene and bitch at us when we sit on the sidelines. Either way, making tactical mistakes is not the same as actively targeting civilians or carpet bombing neighborhoods with zero regard for collateral damage.

Man your country is accidentally bombing hospitals, caravans, weddings, wrong homes, etc. To the people living in these countries, I doubt it makes a difference to them whether their families and loved ones are wiped out by accident or by intention. There are news stories from Pakistan where the sound of a drone up in the sky, frightens the living shit out of civilians. Why should these people be so afraid of the good guys?

 

[Piggus]

Man your country is accidentally bombing hospitals, caravans, weddings, wrong homes, etc. To the people living in these countries, I doubt it makes a difference to them whether their families and loved ones are wiped out by accident or by intention. There are news stories from Pakistan where the sound of a drone up in the sky, frightens the living shit out of civilians. Why should these people be so afraid of the good guys?

Well, you're proving my point. I agree with you, it's awful. But we face criticism that's just as harsh when we sit around and watch as Assad gasses people. It's easy enough to criticize when your own country doesn't have the same responsibility that the US is expected to have on the world stage. Can you see why so many Americans are isolationists who want nothing to do with the rest of the world?

I think it's worth noting that while war is still incredibly awful, at least we have made improvements in technology that limits civilian deaths. Yes, our commanders still make shitty mistakes. There needs to be a real effort to weed them out. But at least we're not destroying entire cities as was the norm just 70 years ago. At least we're not actively targeting civilians the way Russia does.

 

[Dosia]

Man your country is accidentally bombing hospitals, caravans, weddings, wrong homes, etc. To the people living in these countries, I doubt it makes a difference to them whether their families and loved ones are wiped out by accident or by intention. There are news stories from Pakistan where the sound of a drone up in the sky, frightens the living shit out of civilians. Why should these people be so afraid of the good guys?

Imagine what the bad guys think when they hear that drone.

 

[Azih]

Imagine what the bad guys think when they hear that drone.

I was talking to a guy who was high up in the Pakistani military (retired) and he said the Pashtun tribesmen attitude was "Let's see what they're like when they come fight us on the ground".

People who are conditioned to fight/soldiers are different from civilians.

 

[RSP]

Just saw a vid of this kid and more children being put in the ambulance. Breaks your heart

 

[YuShtink]

Man your country is accidentally bombing hospitals, caravans, weddings, wrong homes, etc. To the people living in these countries, I doubt it makes a difference to them whether their families and loved ones are wiped out by accident or by intention. There are news stories from Pakistan where the sound of a drone up in the sky, frightens the living shit out of civilians. Why should these people be so afraid of the good guys?

Mistakes are going to be made when your enemy hides behind civilians. There is no way to help without some kind of errors in the fog of war. The U.S. military does everything it can to reduce civilian casualties by using precision strikes. People die in friendly fire accidents. All kind of awful mistakes are made. War is hell. But there is one side that is actively trying NOT to harm civilians and one side that actively IS. To act like one is no better than the other is as dishonest as pretending US military are infallible heroes.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

There was also the video of a moderate rebel eating a heart and the story early on in the war of moderate rebels attempting to turn a POW into an unwitting human bomb.

The only side I'm on here is of the civilians caught in the crossfire.

The difference is this kind of thing are denounced by the rebels groups and are overalls exceptions, while gov routinely bomb civilian infrastructure, i mean they destroyed like 4 hospitals in Aleppo this month only.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

 

[Condom]

Russia and Iran are just beyond evil right now with their support for Assad, take the L and seek new partnerships.

Syrians (excluding Kurds) aren't asking for the US to intervene on the ground but for things like humanitarian help and a no-fly zone. The war on the ground is and has been fought with local forces.

Besides, stop with the 'we're damned if we do and damned if we don't' cry baby stories because there are plenty of examples where the US needlessly intervened in 3rd world countries solely for geopolitical reasons, just like Russia is doing right now. Worst part being leaving the country in a mess instead of helping it get back on it's feet.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

And yet, because of fierce opposition from the left in the US and the UK to any military action against the Syrian government, nothing happened.

The opposition was to military involvement in that fight, period. You're making it sound like the left has a hard-on for the Syrian government.

We need to be pressuring for a cease fire and if we send anything to Syria it should be humanitarian aid.

If the US and UK also became involved militarily, we'd simply blow up more of Syria and kill more civilians.

 

[Phantast2k]

The only side I'm on here is of the civilians caught in the crossfire.

Given your thread about Assad being the lesser of two evils somewhere around a year ago, the way you argue here and your use of moderate rebels in quotation marks, I find that hard to believe.

There was also the video of a moderate rebel eating a heart and the story early on in the war of moderate rebels attempting to turn a POW into an unwitting human bomb.

The only side I'm on here is of the civilians caught in the crossfire.

I was specifically addressing your use of plural in "decapitating kids". You phrased it like it was a common occurrence when it's not, apart from the fact that it seems like it wasn't simply a kid.
It's telling how you struggle so much to fill that sarcastic "moderate rebels" idiom of yours with substance while at the same time we have a large trove of evidence of Assad's concentration camps in which minors died too:

Syria: Stories Behind Photos of Killed Detainees | Human Rights Watch

A Sample of Victim Profiles:
Ahmad al-Musalmani (Child), Victim from the Photographs
On August 2, 2012, when Ahmad was 14, he returned to Syria from Lebanon, where his family had sent him for safety reasons, to attend his mother’s funeral. He was traveling in a minibus with five other people.

An officer at a checkpoint took the passengers’ phones and found an anti-Assad song on Ahmad’s. The officer dragged Ahmad into a small room at the checkpoint, a fellow passenger told the family a day later. The rest of the passengers continued on in the minibus without him.

Ahmad’s uncle, Dahi al-Musalmani, was a judge for 20 years before he fled the country in March 2013. Dahi told Human Rights Watch that he went to see several government officials after Ahmad’s disappearance. He learned that Ahmad was likely in Air Force Intelligence custody, and paid more than US$14,000 in bribes attempting to secure Ahmad’s release, unsuccessfully. He eventually fled to Jordan after family members told him he was wanted for arrest.

When the Caesar photographs were released, Dahi searched for Ahmad among them:

I went directly to the folder of the Air Force Intelligence, and I found him. [he breaks down while talking] It was a shock. Oh, it was the shock of my life to see him here. I looked for him, 950 days I looked for him. I counted each day. When his mother was dying, she told me: ‘I leave him under your protection.’ What protection could I give?

Is this moderate?

We need to be pressuring for a cease fire and if we send anything to Syria it should be humanitarian aid.

If the US and UK also became involved militarily, we'd simply blow up more of Syria and kill more civilians.

The dynamics of the bolded would require a no-fly zone over Syria along air drops of humanitarian aid.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The opposition was to military involvement in that fight, period. You're making it sound like the left has a hard-on for the Syrian government.

We need to be pressuring for a cease fire and if we send anything to Syria it should be humanitarian aid.

If the US and UK also became involved militarily, we'd simply blow up more of Syria and kill more civilians.

Some leftist group are openly or cryptically pro-Assad, like Corbyn in the UK or Podemos in Spain.
Even the Democratic Party have some trouble with this issue.

 

[Azih]

Given your thread about Assad being the lesser of two evils somewhere around a year ago, the way you argue here and your use of moderate rebels in quotation marks, I find that hard to believe.

It's completely consistent. If I could wave a magic wand and cause both Assad and the AlQaeadalikes and offshoots to disappear than I would have waved it years ago.

But I don't and nobody else does either. That being the case it is the height of stupidity to try and fight two forces at the same time and that is exactly the insane strategy that the West has tried to follow. Especially so on the behalf of a rebellion that has to turn to the Alqaedalikes and offshoots to succeed.

And since it comes down to a choice between a regional monster like Assad, who is no worse to his people than the Saudis and the Ayatollahs, and internationally spreading cancers like AlQaeda and Daesh then I'm picking Assad 100% of the time.

 

[Beerman462]

Holy shit that video. When he touches face, sees the blood on his hand and wipes it on the seat. Brutal

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

It's completely consistent. If I could wave a magic wand and cause both Assad and the AlQaeadalikes and offshoots to disappear than I would have waved it years ago.

But I don't and nobody else does either. That being the case it is the height of stupidity to try and fight two forces at the same time and that is exactly the insane strategy that the West has tried to follow. Especially so on the behalf of a rebellion that has to turn to the Alqaedalikes and offshoots to succeed.

And since it comes down to a choice between a regional monster like Assad, who is no worse to his people than the Saudis and the Ayatollahs, and internationally spreading cancers like AlQaeda and Daesh then I'm picking Assad 100% of the time.

Al Qaeda became a interesting ally for some part of the rebellion since everybody else abandoned them. Assad is craving for this kind of logic and he intentionally favoured the "jihadi" in his opposition, like when he released Abu Musab al Suri in 2011. Al Qaeda and the like cannot develop in a peaceful context.

 

[Azih]

Al Qaeda became a interesting ally for some part of the rebellion since everybody else abandoned them. Assad is craving for this kind of logic and he intentionally favoured the "jihadi" in his opposition, like when he released Abu Musab al Suri in 2011. Al Qaeda and the like cannot develop in a peaceful context.

The fiscal aid of the Gulf sheiks and the tactical complicity of Turkey are both far more obvious contributors to the AlQaedalikes. It's a terrible mess in there.

 

[jetpacks was yes]

It's actually completely not.

For one the former Yugoslavia wasn't surrounded by Turkey, The Gulf States, a Wild West Iraq, and Iran/proxies. AKA the worst neighbors on the planet.

For another America's war effort and reputation weren't exhausted by Bush the Younger's Iraq adventure.

For a third international terrorists like Al-Qaeda and their affiliates and offshoots (Like Daesh) weren't a thing.

I can go on.

From what I understand and have experienced, you both have truth in what you are saying. They are of course not the same situations in the same context, either geographically or historically. It is all a very complex issue. FWIW, I can speak from personal experience having lived in Croatia from 1994-1999, before and then during NATO's intervention. At first we were hated for being American, even though my mother is Croatian. I was a little kid, but adults in the street would show me disdain when they found out where I grew up, and their reasoning was because NATO, and the U.S., had not intervened yet, and their people were suffering because of it. I did witness bombs being dropped in Zagreb, but I missed the worst of the war, and mostly got to see the terrible effects of it, the pain and suffering that brothers inflicted on one another. Once NATO finally did somethingpeoplee started to warm up to us. Like as if we had anything to do with it!

The middle East us a whole other complicated situation, but man it is so horrifying to know that so many women, children, and men all over are suffering so much, and that the world doesn't have it together well enough to put a stop to it. Hopefully humanity can get it together before we completely destroy ourselves.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The fiscal aid of the Gulf sheiks and the tactical complicity of Turkey are both far more obvious contributors to the AlQaedalikes. It's a terrible mess in there.

Totally false. AQ is deemed terrorists by all those countries.

Why Assad liberated one of the main AQ strategist in 2012 while he was killing thousands of democratic rebels in those same jails ?

 

[Azih]

Totally false. AQ is deemed terrorists by all those countries.

If you're honestly going to argue that Turkey didn't turn a blind eye to AlQaedalikes recruits going one way and their oil flowing the other on their soil and Gulf sheikhs (note I said sheikhs, not states) funding AlQaedalikes than I don't know what to say to you.

I mean hell. AlQaedalikes hate Shias and vice versa. Are you going to disagree with that even?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

If you're honestly going to argue that Turkey didn't turn a blind eye to AlQaedalikes recruits going one way and their oil flowing the other on their soil and Gulf sheikhs (note I said sheikhs, not states) funding AlQaedalikes than I don't know what to say to you.

I mean hell. AlQaedalikes hate Shias and vice versa. Are you going to disagree with that even?

No they didn't. They allowed a flow of people to join the various rebellion in Syria but made major breakdown on so-called jihadi movement in 2014. Not everybody going in Syria was a "jihadi".
The major network to get deserter from ISIS out of Syria is operating from Turkey, with the support of the Turkish government. There is a documentary about that on french-german channel "Arte".

If you don't define the "likes of Al Qaida" we can't go very far. Is islamic front like AQ, is Ahram al Sham like AQ ?

I don't understand the second point. Yes AQ hate shia and viceversa. And ?

 

[Currygan]

saw the picture repeatedly during the day. It is undoubtedly one of the saddest images I've seen in years. tears every goddamned time

 

[Kill Your Masters]

His brother died from the injuries from the same airstrike.

Omran Daqneesh's brother Ali dies from wounds suffered in Aleppo airstrike

When the bombs came crashing down on the Daqneesh family home, one son emerged from the rubble almost unscathed and instantly became a global symbol.

The other son died quietly in hospital completely unknown to the world.

It emerged Saturday that Omran Daqneesh’s older brother Ali had succumbed to injuries suffered in the same airstrike that propelled his sibling onto television screens across the planet.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ther-ali-dies-from-wounds-suffered-in-aleppo/

 

[water_wendi]

Just awful. This is the real life version of that commercial that starts with the girls birthday party.

edit: for those that havent seen the commercial its from Save the Children for their Syrian campaign.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBQ-IoHfimQ

 

[Rubenov]

i said it in another thread but I'll say it here again, I recommend everyone watch the Frontline documentary Children of Aleppo.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

And since it comes down to a choice between a regional monster like Assad, who is no worse to his people than the Saudis and the Ayatollahs, and internationally spreading cancers like AlQaeda and Daesh then I'm picking Assad 100% of the time.

I agree that regional stability with Assad is marginally better than rampant countryside terrorism but Assad is pretty bad. I think he's almost as bad as Saddam and some posters here even disagreed with me, saying he's worse.

 

[Oriel]

Oriel, I don't know what information you've consumed on Syria, but it's evident the SDF do not have that capability, even if they really did want to. Either way, their actual self-interest is Rojava, like AcademicSaucer said. This has been pretty clear.

I never said whether they have the capability to seize Damascus, just that they have the intent.

Oh, and Omran's brother Ali has died due to injuries sustained by the criminal actions of Russia/Assad.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37145206

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I never said whether they have the capability to seize Damascus, just that they have the intent.

Oh, and Omran's brother Ali has died due to injuries sustained by the criminal actions of Russia/Assad.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37145206

Only 2 weeks ago they were working with the same regime to break Aleppo.