Don Anubis
Banned
If the west does nothing then they get accused of being isolationists and not caring, when they do something they get accused of being evil and corrupt. People clearly can't make up their minds.
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CNN anchor tears up talking about shellshocked Syrian boy pulled out of rubble
- Thread starter RustyNails
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If the west does nothing then they get accused of being isolationists and not caring, when they do something they get accused of being evil and corrupt. People clearly can't make up their minds.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
You really can't see the difference between the actions of Russia and the United States?
wow.
Yeah, it's a real clusterfuck, which is why it's not going to get noticeably better anytime soon.
Too many actors, too many motives, too much shit. Meanwhile, civilians are either used as pawns, are treated like ants under a shoe, or become foot-notes in the form of accidents depending on who is involved.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
That's powerful
This is why there should have been a no-fly zone enforced at the outbreak of hostilities, with or without UN authorization. Putin is directly responsible for this war. Fuck him and his apologists.
Newtype-001
Member
This is why there should have been a no-fly zone enforced at the outbreak of hostilities, with or without UN authorization. Putin is directly responsible for this war. Fuck him and his apologists.
Im actually happy we have this thread it really brings up the issue.
With Lowkey back he released a new track a few weeks ago titled Ahmed which talks about this stuff.
Lowkey- Ahmed
Its a really powerful track with the video. I hope people watch it
Don Anubis
Banned
The proxy war started when Shia and Sunni countries decided to take sides between rebels/terrorists and the Assad government, again this was BEFORE US and Russian involved. All the US and Russia did was add more fuel to the fire. Why are you so fixated on America in this issue?
And last time I checked, people are ASKING for America to help, whether that be troops on the ground or some assistance in air-raids, provide training for the Iraqi/Syrian troops fighting, to take some Syrian refugees in, etc.
Does America have a perfect track record when it comes to global conflicts? No, but whether you like it or not America is a global leader and if they take initiative then other Western countries will do the same (sadly).
I know America has caused some human violations in the war, but it's disrespectful (towards the troops that are actually doing good) if you completely right-off all the work that has been done in the region.
We don't live in some sort of fantasy world, war is cruel, it's not fair, and nations will be opportunistic and would do shit that's best for them. In the end, only the people living in that war suffer. That's it.
TestMonkey
Member
That still image does the video no justice.
The boy's movements are what were heartbreaking to me.
The boy's movements are what were heartbreaking to me.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Using your army to bomb your own people is the worst thing seen in recent history.
Assad will be go into history as the killer of his own people.
Because just few people stood against him mainly the Muslim Brotherhood given they were vocal, he burned the whole country, opened the door for militias like Hezboloah, which pushed some to form armed forces to defend themselves just to be sabotaged by outsiders to create ISIS that are also killing Syrians, not Assad army nor militias just pure citizens. The closest thing ISIS killed that resembled a soldier was the Jordanian pilot who got burned alive and guess what, Jordan is against Assad.
Assad will be go into history as the killer of his own people.
Because just few people stood against him mainly the Muslim Brotherhood given they were vocal, he burned the whole country, opened the door for militias like Hezboloah, which pushed some to form armed forces to defend themselves just to be sabotaged by outsiders to create ISIS that are also killing Syrians, not Assad army nor militias just pure citizens. The closest thing ISIS killed that resembled a soldier was the Jordanian pilot who got burned alive and guess what, Jordan is against Assad.
He's not a symbol for Aleppo's suffering, he's a symbol for East Aleppo, I wonder how many people are shedding tears for the children and hospitals bombed in West Aleppo? How many people raised their voices when Al Quaeda laid siege to West Aleppo? No one cared until Russia and Iran intervened and broke up the 'rebel' siege, I'm not falling for any Westerners crocodile tears.
Leave it to Al Qaeda to whore this kid's suffering for propaganda.
Sad for the kid, but I've spent my sympathy on our own which the world ignores.
Leave it to Al Qaeda to whore this kid's suffering for propaganda.
Sad for the kid, but I've spent my sympathy on our own which the world ignores.
Sorc3r3r
Member
Seems that western media have found another pic to push the same one sided politically correct meme once again in the pubblic opinion.
Bad Russians with bad Iranians with even worse Assad lealists they are ugly and bad, now Turkey too they are ugly, bad etc...seems to live in a Orwell book.
Wars are cruel, this war in Syria, lost for the western agenda, is only the last one after decade of foolish, short sighted, false, greedy USA policy in the area that in the end caused hundreds of thousands of deaths: Where are the pics of these people? Where are the tears for them?
Bad Russians with bad Iranians with even worse Assad lealists they are ugly and bad, now Turkey too they are ugly, bad etc...seems to live in a Orwell book.
Wars are cruel, this war in Syria, lost for the western agenda, is only the last one after decade of foolish, short sighted, false, greedy USA policy in the area that in the end caused hundreds of thousands of deaths: Where are the pics of these people? Where are the tears for them?
what happened to that pro-hizb guy on the forums here ? Haven't seen him in a while.
edit: nm, there he is xD - the champion of the peoples!
When assad was torturing kids like hamza Al.khattib to death in early 2011 when there was no armed groups yet, where were you son?
Omar daqneesh does not need ur sympathy. Syrians do not need anything from you. But remember when this war ends and assad is toppled, you better pray Syrians show mercy to those who oppressed them.
The west had a soul once. Its why they saved Bosnia and Kosovo. If the west actually imposed a no fly zone in the summer of 2011 when the rebellion started we would be seeing a defected Syrian officer right now in charge of Syria and then elections right after.
I remember when riad Al assad called on all Syrian officers to defect in July 2011. We all thought that was it. But in the end Syrians had no allies and bashar had his who came to save him
Was the US asked by the afghan government to intervene in the 1980s? No, they asked the russians, which then intervened. What did the US do? Invite the radical islamist Taliban to the white house and arm them heavily. Country is still fucked today.
Was the US asked to invade Iraq in 2003 and destablize the entire region for decades, create a power vacuum that would eventually lead to the foundation of ISIS? I don't remember so.
Was the US asked to intervene in Syria by any authority? No. Russia is there because they were begged by Assad, the head of state, to intervene. They are legitimized, even if it's a despicable thing to support a dictator with so much blood on his hands like that. The US is still arming and supporting rebels in the meantime. And AGAIN, go look up those rebels. Those are not some noble freedom fighters, those are mostly radical islamists that cut off their enemies heads and pose with them, fight along Al-Nusra etc.
Same with Lybia pre-Gaddafi. The West bombed shit and delivered guns to (eventually radical) rebels and then wonders about all the refugees and instability.
Which is why imo it's ridiculous to say somehow having Assad in power is the problem. How can anyone seriously believe that removing Assad would do any good in the current situation? Those radical islamist terrorists aren't suddenly going to drop their weapons because someone installs a new puppet leader.
You might also like to look up how many civilians/hospitals US-led forces bombed so far in 2016, in case you missed that in the news. So again. There is NO good force in this war. Not russia, not the US, not the arab countries, not Turkey. Having an extremely narrow, pro-american view of things really isn't helpful when trying to stay at least semi-objective.
MisterFalcon
Member
The US was asked to leave Iraq which created the actual power vacuum that led to a genocidal terror army taking over half the country.
Assad in power is a recruiting point for these terrorist groups. He fuels the conflict by simply existing in his role. You might also want to investigate how much death and destruciton Assad has directly contributed on his civilian population. And how much incarceration and torture his state services have conducted.
Sunnis have been ruling Syria since the ummayad caliphate. If sunnis wanted to kill their minorities they would have done so throughout the centuries. Sunnis of the Lavant are more tolerant than their counterparts in the hejaz. This is because alot of free thinkers in the Sunni Islamic scholarship are Syrian born.
Alawites took power in a coup by the way in 70s. A minority ruling over the.majority which feels that it's their birth right to rule Syria and if they can't rule then they would rather burn Syria to the ground.
Mind you there are alawites opposed to assad and sunnis who back him
So let's say Russia somehow forces Assad to step down and installs a pro-russian puppet leader. Do you really thing the rebels would somehow accept that or receive less support? The US would probably increase their support and the hate for the "pro-russian puppet" wouldn't be much less I think. If there were elections, which seems completely impossible, do you really believe those armed radical islamists would suddenly accept a (US-backed?) moderate new head of state? Why would they suddenly accept this? Completely unrealistic imo.
I wasn't denying any of that.
I didn't list "being asked to leave". They wouldn't have been asked to leave if they hadn't intervened without being asked in the first place.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Isis and other Crap didn't exist up until AL Assad started killing and opened the door for Iranian Militias to kill freely within Syria.
People want to point out ISIS and it's better stand with Assad than ISIS, but this crap all started by AL Assad.
He was the president of Syria,
The Army and other forces were under his command,
His own insecurity played a huge role when the Arabic Spring started.
He is responsible for his own people misery.
People want to point out ISIS and it's better stand with Assad than ISIS, but this crap all started by AL Assad.
He was the president of Syria,
The Army and other forces were under his command,
His own insecurity played a huge role when the Arabic Spring started.
He is responsible for his own people misery.
Less support, most likely. I don't think it would eradicate the conflict. The original solution of removing Assad would have sufficed early on. Now there are multiple problems to deal with, including the proliferation of the radicals you described. Still, a new head of state is required. There is too much anger and vitriol directed towards Assad that a sustainable peace is extremely unlikely. With him remaining in power, we will most likely see a partitioning of Syria. The price for his ego, I guess.
Do you think Assad is part of the solution for a future Syria?
If some one were to read @kyleworton timeline it would turn the most pacifist person in the world to one screaming for revenge. Truly awful stuff. People who think Syria before 2011 was heaven are ignorant ofwhat happens in places like sednaya prison
I'm no stranger to it sadly - Syrian autonomy over Lebanon and collusion with Hezbollah have been a part of our lives since the early days of the civil war in Lebanon. There are tens of thousands of missing Lebanese who are thought to be in Syria's prisons.
For a future Syria? No. Until all the major cities are back under control and radical islamists defeated(as in reduced to small enough numbers) however, yes. Afterwards he should (be made to) step down and elections be held.
It's weird how basically every current "solution" seems so far-fetched and unrealistic. I guess this war really has been going on for a (too long) while now.
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
I remember when when one of my Christian Lebanese classmate used to turn red whenever hafez al assad was mentioned. I never understood why. But I didn't ask because we never talked politics at school
Assad has killed half a million people and killed more Arabs than the entire Arab Israeli wars. You are really naive if u think he is going to step down.
Assad has killed Syrians long before a single radical showed up. He like saddam, gaddafi, milosovic only know the language of force
The problem is, it's very difficult to crush radicalism outright with pure firepower. Look at how the Russians suffered in Afghanistan in the 80s, or the Americans did in Iraq and Afghanistan again. And its happening here too. The funding and flow of weapons and fighters from the neighbor states needs to stop. You need to take the wind out of their sails physically, financially and psychologically. You cannot do that while innocents and others get bombed to hell - the scorched earth policies of Assad and co. will only drag things for years to come.
Dr.Sanchez
Neo Member
Damn. Poor kid, brutal seeing his reactions to his condition.
I'm not usually the type to get emotional about these things. But when I saw that little kid on the news last night it really hit me.
He just sits there. Dazed. Rubs his hand on his face sees blood. And just like drops his hand back down.
I seriously wish I could get that kid out of there. If it was feasible in any way I'd do it.
And I know he's just one in so many kids who are victims of war. I know this. But still.
He just sits there. Dazed. Rubs his hand on his face sees blood. And just like drops his hand back down.
I seriously wish I could get that kid out of there. If it was feasible in any way I'd do it.
And I know he's just one in so many kids who are victims of war. I know this. But still.
Thankfully you were not in charge when the americans decided to get in to bosnia and Kosovo.
Thankfully I can recognize the many many many differences between the Balkans twenty years ago and the Middle East now.
It's actually the same. There were people like you saying same thing just when Nato was about to bomb the shit of the serbs. Same reasons same excuses. The difference was, bill clinton unlike obama had a moral fibre.
Today bosnia and kosovo are democracies.
It's actually completely not.
For one the former Yugoslavia wasn't surrounded by Turkey, The Gulf States, a Wild West Iraq, and Iran/proxies. AKA the worst neighbors on the planet.
For another America's war effort and reputation weren't exhausted by Bush the Younger's Iraq adventure.
For a third international terrorists like Al-Qaeda and their affiliates and offshoots (Like Daesh) weren't a thing.
I can go on.
Dayner_Kurdi
Banned
Poor kid and anyone who live in a war-torn country, sadly I have no hope for middles east and I are from there, we have too much hate and despair in our hearts, moments like this make me feel it that us Arabs are not suitable to be leaders. almost all only think of their self-interest.
Sqrt_minus_one
Member
Excellent points on Libya but I think you also fail to mention that weapons from Libya have been distributed across west Africa as well. Recently saw Boko Haram had at least 2 anti aircraft roxkets - IGLAs, specifically. I imagine that came from but I agree Libya is probably better off.
I think the issue in Syria is that the country is in a bad neighbourhood and it serves as a proxy war for influence b/w Saudi Arabia and Iran.
what ifs are hardly a talking point now. look at the history of the middle east - tampering and interference is the norm here. Syria was/is in Lebanon and Iran,Russia,Turkey etc.. are no strangers to such practices. the Middle East has always been grounds for opportunism and other disgusting behaviors. the point is moot.
There's no what ifs here. The Middle East hasn't always been this way. It was a pretty stable backwater under the Ottomans. But it has been disgusting since the end of War War I. That supports my point that you don't get involved rather than making it moot.
It certainly doesn't make the question moot of what the hell the West would do about Assad supporting civilians if an aggressive intervention had met any amount of success?
Er..if you want to talk about the Ottomans, I can point you to the hundreds of years of instability the region had before the rise of the Ottomans. This has nothing to do with what's happening now, I'm just talking about the futility of advocating non-interventionist policies in a region that's been defined by it for centuries.
There's different eras of history in regions, some more unstable and some less so, and the Middle East is no different. I find it incredible bullshit when people go "ITS ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY". It hasn't. But this is somewhat off topic.
On Topic. What the heck do you propose to do about Assad supporting civilians in your glorious intervention?
MisterFalcon
Member
With a fraction of the population, no means of transport beyond horse carts and no mass communications it was a lot easier to keep the peace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_population_statistics_for_the_Ottoman_Empire
Less then 2,5 million people in what is now Syria, Israel, Palestinian Authority and Lebanon with a combines population of more then 15 times that. If you want to go back to those good old days 90% of the population will need to disappear.
Skiptastic
Member
I struggled watching it because I could see my one year old in that kid and I couldn't imagine him going through that.
Being a parent doesn't mean I wouldn't have felt anything seeing this as a non-parent, but it amplifies those feelings dramatically. Makes them more real.
This stuff:
That still image does the video no justice.
The boy's movements are what were heartbreaking to me.
Just ruins me. ;_;
You brought up the Ottomans when I was talking about the present climate of politics in the Middle East. I agree though, this is way off topic.
They can either integrate within the framework of the new leadership, or they can claim asylum if they wish - same as the millions of Syrians that are currently migrating in our present situation.
That's fantastical and you know it. It ignores the 'moderate' rebels decapitating kids who would be in charge. And assumes that the Assad supporting civilians wouldn't resist your intervention as well as hate you for intervening.
You willing to kill these civilians to get your chosen faction in charge and then oppress them later to keep your chosen ones in power?
It's a civil war with no good side to choose from.
RipperGrim
Member
That picture is heart breaking. No child should have to endure such horrors. It would mess up a fully grown up man let alone a kid.
I hope one day we will live in a time that people will be held responsible for their actions in war and civilian casualties will never be accepted because they shouldn't ever be.
I hope one day we will live in a time that people will be held responsible for their actions in war and civilian casualties will never be accepted because they shouldn't ever be.
The uprising wasn't sectarian until Assad made it so. There were many within the Alawite and Christian circles who desperately tried to avoid such a narrative, but for the purposes of Assad's survival and his warmachine, he tied his fate to theirs. There are plenty of good people in both communities, but the price of this war has made living alongside each other very difficult. I already said, partition was the most likely outcome in Assad's situation.
If you want to carry on with your accusations of genocide and oppression, you're better off talking to someone on your level.
To the average middle eastern citizen who is actually suffering the consequences of the bombs/drone strikes, they are both the same. There is a reason anti-west sentiment, especially anti-US sentiment exists in that region.
The uprising also didn't have a hope of success. Assad had and still has the support of a significant number of civilians as well as a very large portion of the armed forces. The uprising would have always had to get through that somehow. There are also plenty of good people who are Assad supporters who wanted Syria to avoid the chaos the other Arab Spring countries had been going through aside from Tunisia.
What 'level' am I on exactly by pointing out the obvious problems in the interventionist narrative?
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