This is why a lot of people are against auto-bids. Winning their conference should, generally, matter when determining whether or not to award a team a playoff berth. I don't think there's any hypocrisy between this position and not wanting to see a team with 4 losses automatically get in just because they checked that box.
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College Football Week 13 - Sparty ain't worried 'bout no clock
- Thread starter Randolph Freelander
- Start date
Randolph Freelander
Member
You know, I didn't want to say anything specific, but when it looked like Notre Dame might beat Stanford but still be on the outside looking in, they might have to re-evaluate conference membership. A rematch with Clemson in the ACC CCG, for example, would have been welcomed.
But since they lost, Notre Dame can kind of sidestep that thought process a little bit.
Affeinvasion
Member
As a fan and alum, I understand the independence thing, but if the goal is to get to the playoffs and win championships, I think the road through the ACC conference is easier year in and year out than playing a difficult cross-country schedule and having to be perfect or almost perfect with a little help.
One would hope that a playoff committee (made up of people tasked with objectively determining who deserves a spot) would be capable of realizing that a loss suffered by a team being "forced" to play in their CCG is a risk that other competitors for the spot did not have to face, and thus not hold it against them like a normal loss.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Looks like Matt Campbell is out at Toledo and moving to Ames. Some are reporting it as final now. Guess that late Mizzou interview didn't go well. Not sure who would be willing to step into Mizzou with the situation there.
Affeinvasion
Member
I agree with this as well. A loss in a CCG would always be better than a loss during the regular season.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I'd prefer them being in full time versus not. This 5 game scheduling arrangement is a bit of an inconvenience, given that it's the excuse for the conference not to expand to 9 games. They're also the only member in the conference that's part time, given that they're in for the other major sports.
And as a fan of the ACC in general, Notre Dame joining in football would essentially solidify the league over and beyond the current arrangement, even with the grant of rights agreement in place. So yeah, bring them in.
That's correct. Put them in the ACC Coastal, let them beat the chumps in that division (Duke :/), play Navy and a rotating selection of their preferred national opponents, and they'd be looking good most years.
timetokill
Banned
I disagree. Make it so that the conference winners are in. Easy-peasy, no bullshit arguing over rankings and so on. I guess that could take some of the "fun" out of college football, though. I think secretly people just like the drama and fighting and don't want clarity.
As I've always said, I think it should be a 6 team playoff.
- P5 conference champs and 1 at-large
- 1 and 2 get byes, thus encouraging good play to the end of the season even after "clinching" your division.
- Round 1 is 3 vs 6, 4 vs 5
- Round 2 is 1 vs 3/6, 2 vs 4/5
- Round 3 is the Championship Game
It's perfect.
As I've always said, I think it should be a 6 team playoff.
- P5 conference champs and 1 at-large
- 1 and 2 get byes, thus encouraging good play to the end of the season even after "clinching" your division.
- Round 1 is 3 vs 6, 4 vs 5
- Round 2 is 1 vs 3/6, 2 vs 4/5
- Round 3 is the Championship Game
It's perfect.
serenewarfare
Banned
ND in the Coastal would basically be a write-in for the ACCCG every year.
Affeinvasion
Member
I'd be okay with that.
NihonTiger90
Member
Good luck to him
and back to the cellar with you, Toledo. *jabs hard with a broomstick*
Randolph Freelander
Member
That's what everybody thought about Miami, too.
Though to be fair to Notre Dame, they'd have better odds. Then again, Miami wasn't far removed from excellence when they joined, it has just been largely all downhill since.
Alcibiades
Member
Making the road to the championship easier would not be worth giving up scheduling independence. Too many important rivalries are already getting cut permanently or temporarily.
Also, why would you reward a bad set of East Coast teams with a national audience and fanbase on a weekly basis? It is great having Notre Dame travel around the country, giving their national fanbase a chance to make it out to games in different regions. The Notre Dame name is too prestigious and their rivalries with USC and Navy are too important to give up. The Michigan and Michigan State rivalries are great too and hopefully they'll play every now and again too.
Plus, they can have their cake and eat it too like they did in 2012 or almost did this year. There is also the factor that although a cross-country schedule is more difficult on the team, it helps their recruiting and name brand.
perfectchaos007
Member
Didn't your AD say Notre Dame would never join a conference for football? It's going to be difficult to strip that scheduling "tradition" away from your Domer fans
serenewarfare
Banned
I'd be in favor of ND in the ACC as a whole though. I know they like that NBC money, but not having a CCG is going to fuck them more often than not going forward, as we saw with TCU/Baylor last year.
FloydtheFathead
Member
They won't though and never will.. they are using the ACC like a bizarre fuck-buddy and the conference is hoping said relationship develops.. but it never will. Notre Dame isn't going to make it Facebook official and when they don't need you anymore... they will toss you aside and move on to the next lover.
And plus Notre Dame.. if you really wanted to join a conference, join the conference that you know.. has your traditional rivals like the BIG 10?
That's the way I see it in regards to ND joining a conference.
Go back to Knute Rockne and how Michigan cajoled the BIG to freeze Notre Dame out of the conference because Fielding Yost was a fuck and hated catholics (and was a huge fucking racist)
Rockne swore he wouldn't need the BIG and he proved it.
So even today, Michigan is ruining College Football even in mediocrity.
sonycowboy
Member
Going to be a hard sell to ND admin and coaches. The TV money plus a guaranteed trip to CA for recruiting every year vs once every ~10 years getting to play for a national championship that they would make half the time anyway (assuming a one loss record)
Randolph Freelander
Member
At the end of the day, it comes down to money, and I have no idea how much Notre Dame is taking in thanks to NBC versus what they might get in a renegotiated television deal through the ACC plus a likely ACC Network, which would be more viable with Notre Dame in versus out. Notre Dame could still play a quasi-national schedule. As I mentioned earlier, keep Navy as a guaranteed opponent, then try to have Stanford, USC, Michigan State, Purdue, Michigan, et al, as teams that rotate on and off the schedule.
But whatever it is, it still comes down to money. Notre Dame is still football independent now because they think it's worth more money than otherwise. Should that calculation change, so will their status.
Except this process of determining 1 and 2, and which teams gets this huge advantage.
Affeinvasion
Member
All of these points are good and are the reason why things will stay the same, but I think there is too much parity in college football to sustain winning football playing the schedule that ND has to to even sniff the top 4 without a CCG. I get exhausted just thinking about all those long plane rides, let alone having to play football.
This is the major issue. With only four teams getting in and 5 major conferences, ND has to be perfect. Would the ACC really have a problem with ND maintaining its ties to NBC for home games? I doubt it.
serenewarfare
Banned
So if Arkansas doesn't pull off the most concentrated fuckery at the end of a football game I've ever seen in my life, does Alabama not make the playoff? Or does the committee completely ignore the SECCG in that scenario?
I definitely think they would. Their TV partners would be pissed if they paid for the ACC and didn't get the ACC games. Plus the amount of money the ACC stands to gain in future TV deals with ND would make them dumb to allow ND to keep the NBC deal.
I definitely think they would. Their TV partners would be pissed if they paid for the ACC and didn't get the ACC games. Plus the amount of money the ACC stands to gain in future TV deals with ND would make them dumb to allow ND to keep the NBC deal.
perfectchaos007
Member
Cal plays football at Kabam field? What the hell is Kabam?
CCG's are needed in non-round robin conferences though. Otherwise Iowa would be your B1G champions without having to face Ohio St, Michigan, and Michigan St.
CCG's are needed in non-round robin conferences though. Otherwise Iowa would be your B1G champions without having to face Ohio St, Michigan, and Michigan St.
sonycowboy
Member
Looking at Notre Dame's schedule this year vs years past, the ACC isn't doing them any favors SOS-wise...
The 2012/2013 schedules for ND were insane... Michigan (I know), Michigan State, Oklahoma, USC, Stanford, Arizona State (2013)
Randolph Freelander
Member
I kind of wish the entire ACC would find an NBC deal or something outside of the meddling grips of the Worldwide Leader.
I think a change in conference membership would allow for reopening of television contract talks, though I bet in such a scenario, ESPN would have first crack at it.
I think a change in conference membership would allow for reopening of television contract talks, though I bet in such a scenario, ESPN would have first crack at it.
timetokill
Banned
Well, they're only needed if winning conferences is still important. If the playoff spots are decided without regards to conference winners, they aren't, and having to play in a CCG is a disadvantage.
timetokill
Banned
#pac12afterdark is delivering the drama right now!
Randolph Freelander
Member
That limited ACC schedule probably kept them playoff viable, though, given that there were some easy victories there and they didn't have to face (and possibly lose to) those teams they played in prior years.
Alcibiades
Member
Or not having a conference championship game actually gave them a shot if things fell the right way.
Lets see that conference championship scenario from a perspective where it doesn't help them.
Big 12 South (Tech, Texas, Baylor, TCU, OU) vs. Big 12 North (KS, Kansas, ISU, OSU, West Virginia): Baylor vs. Kansas State.
Either Baylor loses, and now having a championship game cost the Big 12 a spot, or Baylor wins but the committee is more impressed with Ohio State so they still get left out. Having a CCG is NOT the reason they were left out, and it can hurt just as much as it can help. Back when they had a Big 12 championship there were several upsets over the years that would not doubt screw teams over in the current environment.
Hving a CCG might help Notre Dame once in a blue moon, but it might also hurt their chances, and they don't need to have one with their strong strength of schedule as it is. Look at Alabama and Clemson - I'm sure given the option they would skip their CCG because it is only going to hurt their chances.
I'm not opposed to conferences having CCG - and I think that they can obviously help teams make that final statement (like Ohio State last year). But they aren't guaranteed to and it is only a matter of time before it screws over one of the conferences.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Would depend on how everything else played out. If everything went the way it has so far other than that, it would probably end up being conference champs with the SEC left out unless Stanford loses. Clemson, Iowa/MSU, OU, Stanford.
If Stanford were to lose the P12 things would get really messy picking between the 1 loss candidates and the 2 loss SEC champ.
serenewarfare
Banned
Last year it definitely was the reason they were left out. Jeff Long said so himself, multiple times. And that's why I'd advocate that CCG winners should basically always get in barring a few scenarios in which you have clearly terrible teams winning very bad conferences.
perfectchaos007
Member
Very impressive. When is the last time New Mexico had a 7 win regular season? You guys have come a long way
Commies!
Randolph Freelander
Member
Oh, it's bound to hurt some teams, and you only have to look at the past to see where it could impact playoffs in the future. For example, in 2005 and 2011, Virginia Tech entered the ACC CCG as the #5 team in the country with 1 loss, but were upset by inferior teams (Florida State and Clemson, respectively). The losses would have kept Tech out of any playoff, had one been in place, and the winners wouldn't have been good enough to go, either.
Went 9-4 in 2007. Been dark times since then. Great win, wish we could of won last week doe.
timetokill
Banned
WOW what a comeback by Cal!
Randolph Freelander
Member
I don't want to live in a sports world where Alabama is only the #2 team in the country because Ole Miss lost to Arkansas on some overtime nonsense. Either Alabama is top 4 quality or they aren't. Yes, Ole Miss beat them, yes Ole Miss would have (in this counterfactual world) made the CCG instead of them, but Ole Miss went on to play other games (and lost 2, not counting Arkansas) and Alabama also played more games and dominated.
Forget the conference standings. It shouldn't matter. If Alabama is #2 with Arkansas beating Ole Miss, they're #2 even if Ole Miss won that game and ended up winning the SECW.
The mental exercise just further proves what a farce a division or conference litmus test actually is.
serenewarfare
Banned
I agree, but I think the committee would look at it as a really bad precedent to set, similar to FSU last season. No matter how FSU looked, they couldn't set the precedent that an undefeated P5 team could be left out. They might also think that no matter how good Alabama looked, they couldn't set the precedent that a team can make the playoff without even making its own CCG.
Alcibiades
Member
So then he guaranteed Kansas State being in with two losses over Ohio State?
In that case, maybe the Big 10 should cancel their championship game since that extra pummeling of Wisconsin didn't help a one-loss Ohio State and the Buckeyes were left out at 5 looking in.
See, your point about what Jeff Long says makes no sense since in the end there are 4 playoff spots and 5 "power" conferences. If they all had CCG, then someone gets left out no matter what. Also, it might mean someone who would get it gets upset and then gets left out.
I'm sure not having one hurt in the sense that Baylor routing Kansas State at the same time Ohio State routing Wisconsin would have at least made the decision for the committee harder, but the final four were set short of a situation like that. No way I am buying that a nailbiter Baylor win over Kansas State impresses the committee like Ohio State did. I'm also not buying that a 2-loss Kansas State makes it in over a 1-loss Ohio State.
perfectchaos007
Member
Here was his stat line today. They let him air it out at LT
Jeff Driskel
27/44
355YDS
8.1AVG
3TD
3INT
42.3QBR
His team lost to Southern Miss 24 to 58 though
Randolph Freelander
Member
The first would be difficult to do, particularly since Florida State was also the defending champion. The latter? Set that precedent quickly, if you ask me. The mandate is to take the four best teams. Let conferences determine their champions and CCG participants however they like, but that shouldn't bind the playoff selection process.
serenewarfare
Banned
I think last year he was specifically talking about Baylor and TCU. I think had Baylor rolled over K-State in a CCG like they did a lot of other opponents last year, they absolutely would have gotten in over OSU.
But then again I think TCU was the best team last year, so what do I know.
Alcibiades
Member
That's fair - I think it would have been a tossup (considering the Virginia Tech loss was pretty bad). But then the counter argument is that the Big 10 is putting up this extra obstacle that isn't even helping their teams make the playoff. The whole thing is a math issue, at least one major conference is bound to be left out - whether they have a CCG or not. On that everyone agrees.
The discussion then becomes does the Big 12 need one, and would it help more than hurt. I think having one in 2014 would have helped in one case, Baylor routing KSU (and even then not guaranteed). This year, I think it hurts more than it helps due to basically having an OSU/OU rematch that doesn't need to happen. (This is in my imaginary South/North divisions where OU and OSU are forced into separate divisions because who knows how else they would split divisions).
I also have a soft spot for the round-robin schedule the Big 12 plays and wouldn't like to see that go away because they felt forced to add weaker teams in order to have a championship game. There is something awesome about everyone playing everyone.
I feel the same way about David Ash, but I really did think he could have been a decent qb if it weren't for the concussions. We can thank Applewhite for that.
Not sure if that was better or worse than the year they lost to Stanford two weeks in a row.
perfectchaos007
Member
Joey on College football Final also agrees that Clemson v. UNC is a playoff play in game. If UNC wins, they are in the playoff