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[Tamanon]

Is there any particular reason why the MSM is totally ignoring this? Seems like every news channel should be covering something like this.

There's not much new information being released nationally. So, politics it is with the Democratic Primary probably being decided tomorrow.

 

[909er]

What's the military balance of South America? I know Venezuela just got a bunch of shiny new Russian toys, but I'm assuming Columbia has some decent US made stuff too. No idea on Ecuador.

In response to an earlier comment about the Columbian press being a mouthpiece for the US, even if they were, would they print a false story that would anger Venezuela and Ecuador? Somehow, I don't think it's in the interest of Columbia to be surrounded by two nations wanting war while they continue to fight a civil war with FARC. If anything, I see the move of Venezuela and Ecuador as saber rattling, because they knew damn well what Columbia found when they heard Columbia had the body of Raul Reyes. Chavez and Correa knew that what Columbia found may lead to war.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

What's the military balance of South America? I know Venezuela just got a bunch of shiny new Russian toys, but I'm assuming Columbia has some decent US made stuff too. No idea on Ecuador.

Colombia has the advantage in ground forces, but its airforce is complete shit. Well, maybe thats not fair, its been built around counter-insurgency not conventional war.

They've got a grand total of 8 IAI Kfir (they bought 12 but 4 have been lost in accidents) and 7 Mirage 5's for air superiority. In feb. they signed an agreement with Isreal to supply like 20 more Kfir but those obviously haven't been delivered yet.

Thats going up against 24 Su-30's.

Basically in any war Venezuela is going to have air superiority which invariably = win. Unless the US deploys some carrier groups...

 

[besada]

Does the US defend Colombia? If so with what Army?

The Air Force

 

[909er]

Colombia has the advantage in ground forces, but its airforce is complete shit. Well, maybe thats not fair, its been built around counter-insurgency not conventional war.

They've got a grand total of 8 IAI Kfir (they bought 12 but 4 have been lost in accidents) and 7 Mirage 5's for air superiority. In feb. they signed an agreement with Isreal to supply like 20 more Kfir but those obviously haven't been delivered yet.

Thats going up against 24 Su-30's.

Basically in any war Venezuela is going to have air superiority which invariably = win. Unless the US deploys some carrier groups...

Oh, that's just beautiful. Next think you know someone's gonna say that US has a deal with Columbia where we have to come to their defense if they're attacked (we don't, do we?)

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

Oh, that's just beautiful. Next think you know someone's gonna say that US has a deal with Columbia where we have to come to their defense if they're attacked (we don't, do we?)

colombian regulars are trained in the U.S (at least their officers and their special forces are...)

 

[Tamanon]

Oh, that's just beautiful. Next think you know someone's gonna say that US has a deal with Columbia where we have to come to their defense if they're attacked (we don't, do we?)

No deal, but I don't think it'd be a stretch to say that the UN would intervene if Colombia were invaded. They might intervene anyways if this evidence is true of Venezuela's involvement.

 

[RumFore]

Plus there are alot of special forces in Columbia. I was watching a documentary on drugs there and the US basically has a mini army there helping Columbians.

 

[909er]

No deal, but I don't think it'd be a stretch to say that the UN would intervene if Colombia were invaded. They might intervene anyways if this evidence is true of Venezuela's involvement.

I also wonder how other South American countries are reacting to this, especially the big ones like Brazil.

 

[newsguy]

Oh, that's just beautiful. Next think you know someone's gonna say that US has a deal with Columbia where we have to come to their defense if they're attacked (we don't, do we?)

Well since Columbia Ohio is in the US, I would assume they would come to their defense.

 

[Tamanon]

Well since Columbia Ohio is in the US, I would assume they would come to their defense.

Actually it's Columbus, Ohio. Columbia, South Carolina.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

people! it's spelled C-O-L-O-M-B-I-A

 

[thetrin]

I always spelt it with a ''u''.

British Columbia =/= Colombia.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I thinking more people need to focus on the fact that potentially a terrorist group has radioactive material in it's possession and the means to deliver it to the US rather quickly and easily.

Thoughts?

 

[909er]

Well since Columbia Ohio is in the US, I would assume they would come to their defense.

Oops.

 

[SpeedySwaf]

I thinking more people need to focus on the fact that potentially a terrorist group has radioactive material in it's possession and the means to deliver it to the US rather quickly and easily.

Thoughts?

If true, it's definitely something that Colombia needs to worry about. The US not as much, since FARC is far more concerned with their home country then another country thousands of miles north.

 

[909er]

If true, it's definitely something that Colombia needs to worry about. The US not as much, since FARC is far more concerned with their home country then another country thousands of miles north.

They might want to sell it to another organization with the motive and skill to attack other nations. I'm sure uranium must go for a decent price on the bat-shit crazy terrorist black market.

 

[Tamanon]

They might want to sell it to another organization with the motive and skill to attack other nations. I'm sure uranium must go for a decent price on the bat-shit crazy terrorist black market.

I'm sure the fact that they have it, means it's ALREADY available on the black market. I'm pretty sure it has been for at least a year.

 

[JDSN]

Pretty much every latin country that has talked about this has condemned Colombia for entering in Ecuatorian airspace, none of them have commented on the documents, except for Venezuela which says...I wont get into details but its basically the same crap that you would expect from some of the most "creative" people that have posted here. :lol

As expected Usa supports Colombia. Hilary Clinton said that they should solve this through dialog and that Chavez needs to stop acting like Reyes was the pope (he requested a minute of silence), Obama (the translator said "Osama" at first :lol ) said that the other countries need to strengthen their borders so this shit doesn't happen again. That old guy (Mckaine?) also commented something but I wasnt paying attention.

Edit: Oh yeah, and the FARC (neither Colombia) has the resources to do a bomb with the uranium, they'll probably sell it to Islamic extremists. Venezuela said that this uranium thing (like the rest of the documents) are lies fabricated by an alliance between by Bush, Bush's puppy (our president) and Warren Spector.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

No deal, but I don't think it'd be a stretch to say that the UN would intervene if Colombia were invaded. They might intervene anyways if this evidence is true of Venezuela's involvement.

Venezuela and Ecuador really need to make the first move here. No more preemptive military action for America thank you very much.

But if they do make that first move, and even if the UN doesn't act, I wouldn't rule out America sending a Carrier group down there and helping the Colombian air force, taking advantage of an opportunity to knock Chavez. Colombia already has a competent army so we wouldn't need to move (at this point non-existant) troops into the country.

Air support is all the Colombians need to win any possible war. We could easily provide them with it. Bush is already on the way out, so I doubt he gives a flying fuck what the public response would be, and if Venezuela/Ecuador moves first it probably would be supportive of strictly a Air Force/Navy action.

I mean hell, as the Army budget has risen due to Iraq, due to politics so have the Air Forces and Navy (they don't want to be left out of budgetary windfalls) they are more than prepared to engage Chavez.

 

[Instigator]

Venezuela and Ecuador really need to make the first move here. No more preemptive military action for America thank you very much.

But if they do make that first move, and even if the UN doesn't act, I wouldn't rule out America sending a Carrier group down there and helping the Colombian air force, taking advantage of an opportunity to knock Chavez. Colombia already has a competent army so we wouldn't need to move (at this point non-existant) troops into the country.

Air support is all the Colombians need to win any possible war. We could easily provide them with it. Bush is already on the way out, so I doubt he gives a flying fuck what the public response would be, and if Venezuela/Ecuador moves first it probably would be supportive of strictly a Air Force/Navy action.

I mean hell, as the Army budget has risen due to Iraq, due to politics so have the Air Forces and Navy (they don't want to be left out of budgetary windfalls) they are more than prepared to engage Chavez.

How can you gleefully talk about escalation in another regional conflict?

 

[AndersTheSwede]

How can you gleefully talk about escalation of another regional conflict?

What about my statements indicated glee? I'm simply talking about what would possibly be needed to be done in an escalation. Venezuela/Ecuador are the ones sending troops to the border and talking about "the will to follow this through to its eventuality."

If diplomacy can resolve the current situation without fighting then that absolutely needs to be pursued. But you hope for the best, plan for the worst.

 

[Instigator]

What about my statements indicated glee? I'm simply talking about what would possibly need to be done in an escalation. Venezuela/Ecuador are the ones sending troops to the border and talking about "the will to follow this through to its eventuality."

If diplomacy can resolve the current situation without fighting then that absolutely needs to be pursued.

I see more than just a dispassionate analysis of the situation. Ditto with your past comments.

 

[909er]

What about my statements indicated glee? I'm simply talking about what would possibly be needed to be done in an escalation. Venezuela/Ecuador are the ones sending troops to the border and talking about "the will to follow this through to its eventuality."

If diplomacy can resolve the current situation without fighting then that absolutely needs to be pursued. But you hope for the best, plan for the worst.

I wonder, if the US does intervene, how would Russia and China react? Or Brazil and Peru, both nations which border Colombia.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

I see more than just a dispassionate analysis of the situation. Ditto with your past comments.

So if Colombia is invaded, we should just abandon them? We can't throw billions of dollars into the region and then just wash our hands when the situation goes south. We have trained the Colombians to fight Farc, we have military operatives training Colombian special forces, we provided Colombians with the intelligence that resulted in the death Reyes AFAIK.

The Colombians had every right to go after Reyes and FARC who have been terrorizing and killing in Colombia for 40 years, as we have every right to go after Al-Qaeda remnants in Pakistan. We can't hold ourselves to certain rights and withhold those rights from others.

It was asked what the military options would be if Venezuela/Ecuador invaded, and I gave my opinion. If you find that offensive then... well, I really don't care.

 

[Fio]

There won't be any war. Before killing some low-level-form-of-life leader of FARC the colombian government knew what they were doing. They had plenty of reasons to launch the attack and some documents will prove it.

About Chavez, it's just him again trying to change the focus that in Venezuela, due to his ridiculous administration, it's becoming more and more difficult to find basic itens, like, uh, toilet paper. Not to say that his plan to become the "king of Venezuela" has failed and now he's desesperately looking for another way to execute this plan again. And a war would be great for him and his plans.

And, well, you always expect that retarded South America presidents like Lula, Kristner, Chavez, would blame Colombia, but even Sarkozy has blamed Colombia.
South America is really fucked. Until, well, I don't know.

 

[Boogie]

I wonder, if the US does intervene, how would Russia and China react? Or Brazil and Peru, both nations which border Colombia.

Make a lot of noise, and not actually do shit, like the entire history of the 20th century in the Western Hemisphere (Cuba excepted).

 

[Instigator]

So if Colombia is invaded, we should just abandon them? We can't throw billions of dollars into the region and then just wash our hands when the situation goes south. We have trained the Colombians to fight Farc, we have military operatives training Colombian special forces, we provided Colombians with the intelligence that resulted in the death Reyes AFAIK.

The Colombians had every right to go after Reyes and FARC who have been terrorizing and killing in Colombia for 40 years, as we have every right to go after Al-Qaeda remnants in Pakistan. We can't hold ourselves to certain rights and withhold those rights from others.

It was asked what the military options would be if Venezuela/Ecuador invaded, and I gave my opinion. If you find that offensive then... well, I really don't care.

Not truly offensive, just typical armchair talk, in a Chavez topic where it is par for the course.

And yes, your long laundry list of why the US should enter this conflict militarily (if it goes to that point) just reconfirms what I perceived initially. This conflict would be a good thing in the end.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

I wonder, if the US does intervene, how would Russia and China react? Or Brazil and Peru, both nations which border Colombia.

There would be nothing they could do, other than diplomatically protest. They are so far removed from the area geographically, and they completely lack any major carrier forces. It's really unlikely that they would risk a major confrontation with the US over Colombia.

But, again, for the US to legitimately get involved Venezuela/Ecuador would have to invade first.

Not truly offensive, just typical armchair talk, in a Chavez topic where it is par for the course.

And yes, your long laundry list of why the US should enter this conflict militarily (if it goes to that point) just reconfirms what I perceived initially. This conflict would be a good thing in the end.

This is an internet forum. Do you expect anything other than armchair talk?

No war is inherently "good," but if it comes to that we shouldn't kid ourselves about our responsibilities to Colombia, no matter how that might conflict with your isolationist worldview.

 

[itxaka]

The Colombians had every right to go after Reyes and FARC who have been terrorizing and killing in Colombia for 40 years, as we have every right to go after Al-Qaeda remnants in Pakistan. We can't hold ourselves to certain rights and withhold those rights from others.

ehm...you have no rigths to go everywhere you want killing whatever you want as the US has done. USA is not the owner of the world.

There are extradition treaties (is writed like this?) and borders for something. If Colombia wanted, they should have:

1) Talk with Ecuador about this issue in order to enter ecuatorian territory to get the terrorist

2) Make a good plan and capture the bastards alive and cover it like it was near the border to avoid any territorial issue.

Instead of that they went the Bush way: Enter, kill, show it to the world without thinking on the consequences and sit back to enjoy your glorious justice (tm)

 

[909er]

There would be nothing they could do, other than diplomatically protest. They are so far removed from the area geographically, and they completely lack any major carrier forces. It's really unlikely that they would risk a major confrontation with the US over Colombia.

But, again, for the US to legitimately get involved Venezuela/Ecuador would have to invade first.

I'm just saying, Russia and China, while geographically far removed, are involved diplomatically, economically and militarily. Chavez wouldn't have the balls to make these threats if he didn't have billions of dollars worth of Russian planes, guns and choppers that it got recently. Also, if a US war with Venezuela further destabilizes the world oil market, China would be super pissed.

 

[909er]

ehm...you have no rigths to go everywhere you want killing whatever you want as the US has done. USA is not the owner of the world.

There are extradition treaties (is writed like this?) and borders for something. If Colombia wanted, they should have:

1) Talk with Ecuador about this issue in order to enter ecuatorian territory to get the terrorist

2) Make a good plan and capture the bastards alive and cover it like it was near the border to avoid any territorial issue.

Instead of that they went the Bush way: Enter, kill, show it to the world without thinking on the consequences and sit back to enjoy your glorious justice (tm)

In all fairness, Ecuador wouldn't have done shit if they requested extradition. There's a reason Reyes was there in the first place. Just like asking the Taliban to turn over bin Laden.

 

[newsguy]

ehm...you have no rigths to go everywhere you want killing whatever you want as the US has done. USA is not the owner of the world.

There are extradition treaties (is writed like this?) and borders for something. If Colombia wanted, they should have:

1) Talk with Ecuador about this issue in order to enter ecuatorian territory to get the terrorist

2) Make a good plan and capture the bastards alive and cover it like it was near the border to avoid any territorial issue.

Instead of that they went the Bush way: Enter, kill, show it to the world without thinking on the consequences and sit back to enjoy your glorious justice (tm)

There isn't a rolleyes.gif big enough dude.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

ehm...you have no rigths to go everywhere you want killing whatever you want as the US has done. USA is not the owner of the world.

There are extradition treaties (is writed like this?) and borders for something. If Colombia wanted, they should have:

1) Talk with Ecuador about this issue in order to enter ecuatorian territory to get the terrorist

2) Make a good plan and capture the bastards alive and cover it like it was near the border to avoid any territorial issue.

Instead of that they went the Bush way: Enter, kill, show it to the world without thinking on the consequences and sit back to enjoy your glorious justice (tm)

Ah, he has joined us, with his broad generalizations.

Iraq was an unjustified war, you'll get no arguments for that from me, but 9/11 proved Al-Qaeda's ability to kill Americans, and if Pakistan is unable to to apprehend militants in its territory then we have no choice but to respond to prevent them from using that territory as to regroup.

1.) Colombia's civil war has lasted 40 years. If Ecuador was going to extradite Farc from its territory it would have done so.

2.) Your "good plan" looks nice on paper, but it didn't work out that way. And is being deceptive as to what happened really in line with your agenda?

 

[Instigator]

This is an internet forum. Do you expect anything other than armchair talk?

No, but the talk tends to be unnecessarily agreessive in those types of topics.

No war is inherently "good," but if it comes to that we shouldn't kid ourselves about our responsibilities to Colombia, no matter how that might conflict with your isolationist worldview.

Well, I'm not American so this isn't about 'my' responsibilities or isolationist views.

Though US officials are not adopting the same kind of rhethoric (so far), if I were to take your comments and justifications for what they are, I would guess this conflict is seen as a mean and an opportunity to take out Chavez where it has proven to be impossible in peace times. You make it sound so easy.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

I'm just saying, Russia and China, while geographically far removed, are involved diplomatically, economically and militarily. Chavez wouldn't have the balls to make these threats if he didn't have billions of dollars worth of Russian planes, guns and choppers that it got recently. Also, if a US war with Venezuela further destabilizes the world oil market, China would be super pissed.

Yes they would be super pissed. So If Venezuela/Ecuador invading were to happen (to appease the sensitive) and if Colombia won the the initial war on its soil, and if America got in involved in the first place. (A lot of if's) then it would be a similar choice as what happened in the First Gulf War. Whether to continue on and depose Chavez.
Personally, I don't think that would be a good idea. Preserving Colombian sovereignty should be the one and only goal. We don't wouldn't need to turn into aggressors and invade Venezuela and overthrown Chavez. He (for all his power consolidation) was democratically elected, we don't need a repeat of Iraq. Better to just beat his aggression and then cease violence and return to diplomacy.

 

[itxaka]

Ah, he has joined us, with his broad generalizations.

Iraq was an unjustified war, you'll get no arguments for that from me, but 9/11 proved Al-Qaeda's ability to kill Americans, and if Pakistan is unable to to apprehend militants in its territory then we have no choice but to respond to prevent them from using that territory as to regroup.

1.) Colombia's civil war has lasted 40 years. If Ecuador was going to extradite Farc from its territory it would have done so.

2.) Your "good plan" looks nice on paper, but it didn't work out that way. And is being deceptive as to what happened really in line with your agenda?

no need for personal attacks/accusations. I´m just stating what I think of the situation. Chavez is an idiot, sure, but giving him reasons to boast his "talk" and let him do some fake troops movements to look like the "savior of the poor" is from idiots, hence my thougths about what should have be done. It´s not like US hasn´t done and promote undercovered strikes in order to keep things quiet and not scalate to a full blow war (in wich russia will be gladly to do something, as putin is like chavez, loves to boast his country against US)

 

[Boogie]

I'm just saying, Russia and China, while geographically far removed, are involved diplomatically, economically and militarily. Chavez wouldn't have the balls to make these threats if he didn't have billions of dollars worth of Russian planes, guns and choppers that it got recently. Also, if a US war with Venezuela further destabilizes the world oil market, China would be super pissed.

Doesn't matter. It may be the 21st century, but the Western Hemisphere is still the USA's stomping ground. There may be factors limiting America's intervention, but the response of Russia and China isn't one of them, imo.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

no need for personal attacks/accusations. I´m just stating what I think of the situation

Basically you implied that I said "USA is the owner of the world." When I have said nothing of the sort.

Every argument that you bring forth is not based on reason and logic but knee-jerk anti-Americanism.

We have made major mistakes in recent history, there is no doubt of that. But your letting those mistakes cloud your judgment as to what is right in South America. And we have a responsibility to preserve Colombian sovereignty given the billions we have given their military to fight FARC, and fight Al-Qaeda given their ability demonstrated by 9/11. (I am mentioning these two issues not because they are related, but because they have been brought up in the discussion.)

 

[itxaka]

Basically you implied that I said "USA is the owner of the world." When I have said nothing of the sort.

Every argument that you bring forth is not based on reason and logic but knee-jerk anti-Americanism.

We have made major mistakes in recent history, there is no doubt of that. But your letting those mistakes cloud your judgment as to what is right in South America. And we have a responsibility to preserve Colombian sovereignty given the billions we have given their military to fight FARC, and fight Al-Qaeda given their ability demonstrated by 9/11. (I am mentioning these two issues not because they are related, but because they have been brought up in the discussion.)

And again, ok i´ll leave it here, but arguing with someone using personal attacks it´s not really nice and it says a lot about the person. Have a good nigth sir.

 

[Boogie]

And again, ok i´ll leave it here, but arguing with someone using personal attacks it´s not really nice and it says a lot about the person. Have a good nigth sir.

uh, you said "you have no rigths to go everywhere you want killing whatever you want as the US has done"

Sounds like you're more guilty of personal attacks than he is.

but hey, you'll probably just say I'm being "obtuse", like Dires Irae did.

 

[Nooreo]

First war to be broadcasted in HD?

FULL 1080P 7.1 Surround sound...oh..oh yes..

 

[Tamanon]

And again, ok i´ll leave it here, but arguing with someone using personal attacks it´s not really nice and it says a lot about the person. Have a good nigth sir.

I dunno, is that really a personal attack at all? Sounds to me like he's just saying your arguments come off as knee-jerk anti-americanism.

That's attacking the message, not the messenger.

 

[Instigator]

uh, you said "you have no rigths to go everywhere you want killing whatever you want as the US has done"

Sounds like you're more guilty of personal attacks than he is.

but hey, you'll probably just say I'm being "obtuse", like Dires Irae did.

So if I say Canada has no right to torture Somali teenagers to death, it's a personal attack directed at you?

 

[Nooreo]

so.. Colombia = HD DVD?

 

[itxaka]

uh, you said "you have no rigths to go everywhere you want killing whatever you want as the US has done"

Sounds like you're more guilty of personal attacks than he is.

but hey, you'll probably just say I'm being "obtuse", like Dires Irae did.

I don´t even know what obtuse means

And I was answering at his post about "we have the rigth to ..." saying that they don´t, globally, the USA, as there is international laws, etc...

No personal attacks from my side, at least i didn´t intend to do that ;D

 

[Nooreo]

Wait Columbia's backed by US?!!!

Venezuela,Ecuador = HD DVD?

 

[Boogie]

So if I say Canada has no right to torture Somali teenagers to death, it's a personal attack directed at you?

Well, no, since " Canada has no right to torture Somali teenagers to death" is not phrased in the second person.

C'mon, Instigator, we're beyond this, aren't we? Can't we each just take our own potshots at our own targets and leave each other to our own fun?

 

[Boogie]

I don´t even know what obtuse means

well, bless you for that.

 

[Instigator]

Well, no, since " Canada has no right to torture Somali teenagers to death" is not phrased in the second person.

C'mon, Instigator, we're beyond this, aren't we? Can't we each just take our own potshots at our own targets and leave each other to our own fun?

I don't consider this a potshot, but a legitimate point, however minor...

P.S. You can still vote for me in the GAF art contest!