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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
then acknowledge that 2 of the transformations (fire, rock) are awfull for competitive play, while another one (water) is bad, and ban it? but because you don't want to lose a stage, it's better to trade stadium for frozen stadium.
and what is the problem with allowing "a hacked version of a stage". That statment makes it sound a lot worse that it would actually be, as all you would be doing is allowing a stage that is already in the game, you're just preventing it from changing into other forms that are objective worse for high level play.
So, even though no one would arguee againt frozen stadium being much more suited for competitive melee, you are going to keep an awful stage (compared to the other legal ones, the layout of some of the stadium transformations are super bad) because "we can't do that just because..."
right, because randomness is absolutely what you want to see in high level play, when players are playing for more than 10.000$
it would be more appropiate to play under the most controlled conditions possible, so that swings in the match come from the players only, without factors like the stage coming into play.
I feel like you would have to be deliberately ignorant at this point to not notice the problems that have arisen from introducing hacks into competitive/tournament play.
so your argument is that, even thought frozen stadium would be more suited for competitive play, it's not worth it to look into it, just because there has been problems in the past, like the first versions of 20XX TE being unstable, UCF at shine, etc... !?
so, even thought we acknowledge that there's a better option, competitive melee is forever going to be stuck with regular pokemon stadium? and while melee gets more and more competitive and there's more and more money on the line, nothing will be done to prevent the stage from coming into play and swinging matches!?
the tools are there to make the game better for competitive play, yet people are saying "nah, we can't do that"
correct
The biggest problem with Frozen Stadium is that Nintendo could step in at any time and say that we can't do that. That's a problem with UCF as well, but it's probably harder to enforce since you can't turn on Melee and see a fundamentally different game when UCF is being played. Also it would have weird consequences for the meta if we did it with Frozen Stadium, it fundamentally changes some aspects of the game (for example I feel like Stadium would be quite a bit better than it currently is for Marth in the Fox/Marth matchup). That's not necessarily a bad thing but my point is that Nintendo stepping in and saying we can't use frozen stadium would mean that everyone would have to readjust yet again.
It's also one more thing for TOs to worry about, and a solution to a problem not many people see as a significant hurdle for Melee to overcome like top players felt about dashback.
It's also one more thing for TOs to worry about, and a solution to a problem not many people see as a significant hurdle for Melee to overcome like top players felt about dashback.
this just feels like trying to come up with something to say against frozen stadium, and to be able to do that, you come with a "what if" scennario. Just goes to show that there really isn't a solid argument against it.
and of course it would affect matchups. In marth vs fox, frozen stadium would be much, much better than regular stadium for marth, as it would act as a less polaricing final destination. And mentioning that specific case, seems like yet another bad argument against frozen stadium, because regular pokemon stadium is much more polaricing than frozen stadium would be. Spacies (fox/falco) are stupidly good in the transformations compared to the other characters (and that's not the main point against the transformstions, which is that they are simply bad stages), and there's specific spots that are very advantageous for other characters too, like peach going under the tree in the fire tranformation, etc...
frozen stadium would be way more fair.
you know that the transformations are bad when it's not uncommon to see the players refusing to fight until the transformstion is over.
Didn't belive that S2J could make it, but I'm pretty happy with the outcome of the last phase.
Also #TeamSake!
Didn't really want S2J at Summit, but after seeing Chu make a fool of himself... a little glad he didn't make it. Above all else though, I'm happy to see aMSa there. As long as he's there, pretty much best scenario.
Agree with this. I'd rather have the stage just banned than have the game messed with more. If it's urgent, sure (64 timer). But if we can avoid it, then let's not. Waiting 30 seconds every once in a while isn't that bad. And the weird situations it introduces when people fight it out are fun.
players are starting to play for very significant amounts of money (GTX, Smash Summit 5 shortly after).
I understand that regular stadium has been the standar since forever, but it's starting to get really old to see the stage heavily affecting the outcome of a match/set, tournament after tournament, in 2017
(do i really need to remind anyone of what happens, on the fire transformation and under the tree, every time mew2king or mango play against armada's peach on stadium? and that's just one example)
Saying "it's how it's always been" it's ignoring the fact that the scene is still changing, the game is getting much more competitive by the day, and prizes (money) keeps rising.
Just as there where more legal stages before (Cornelia, etc...), and, as the game got more serious, some where banned, the natural progresion should be to end up playing under the more controlled conditions possible (and pokemon stadium's transformations do not fall into that).
People should let go stadium's "hype moments", and acknowledge that, as the game gets more serious and players play for higher amounts of money, changing to frozen stadium would make more sense.
seriously, this.
My argument had nothing to do with how polarizing the stage is, rather the fact that it would cause a shift in the meta at all because of how it would change certain matchups. This would be a problem not just because players would have to adjust, but because the way we adopt ruleset changes is dependent on TOs who all have different ideologies on what should/shouldn't be legal and there's nothing dictating that we have to have a unified ruleset, even with the new rule system in place. This is clearly demonstrated in GTX vs. TBH7, two huge majors back to back, one of them had UCF and the other didn't. What if this happened with Frozen Stadium? Players would essentially be switching from two different versions of Melee on the fly.
I don't think this reason is sufficient enough to ban it though, it's just one potential negative outcome that could come as a result. The biggest reason is just Nintendo. You wrote that off as a "what if," scenario except, uh, it's a lot more than that? There's a reason PM is no longer streamed on Twitch. According to some guy on Reddit, the TBH7 TOs said he couldn't even bring a B0XX controller to the tournament because of Nintendo.
Normally I'd agree with this but the guy's been playing fuego lately, consistently getting into top 8s, and looking at him on stream he seemed to really want it badly this time. Don't think I've ever seen as much emotion from S2J as I have on the streams I saw him on last night/today.
What's the over-under on a player who gets in by votes going 0-2? You can't just point to the fact that he went 0-2 to say that he doesn't deserve to be there since by virtue of the fact that he wasn't invited he's going to be on the low end of the skill spectrum for the tournament.
Most of the players who got in by voting are going to be knocked out of the tournament early. None of the players outside of the invite pool have a chance in hell of actually winning this event and most of them would be lucky to play more than three games.
Chances are, if you can't complete those steps yourself then you're too ignorant to be qualified to make a judgement call on whether it would be trivial to implement or not. The fact is that the rest of us are simply maintaining a healthy skepticism since the wounds of shoddily-implemented modifications are fresh and continue to be reopened on a regular basis.
Personally, I think the issue of stadium versus frozen stadium is a pretty small one since most people just /afk through the transitions anyway, which means that even a low risk of something going wrong is probably not worth taking.
Game five of a tight set goes to stadium and the game crashes because your 99.9% foolproof mod couldn't handle that 0.1% edge case? Congratulations, not only are the players mad, but so are the spectators and your tournament has a bad reputation forever.
Honestly, your argument reads like one of those guys who has never organized an event of any kind ever chiming in with his big ideas for how a tournament should be ran.
Most of the players who got in by voting are going to be knocked out of the tournament early. None of the players outside of the invite pool have a chance in hell of actually winning this event and most of them would be lucky to play more than three games.
If you think implementation is so trivial, you do it. Come up with the hack, test it to make sure nothing weird happens, and then test it a lot to make sure nothing weird ever happens.
Chances are, if you can't complete those steps yourself then you're too ignorant to be qualified to make a judgement call on whether it would be trivial to implement or not. The fact is that the rest of us are simply maintaining a healthy skepticism since the wounds of shoddily-implemented modifications are fresh and continue to be reopened on a regular basis.
Personally, I think the issue of stadium versus frozen stadium is a pretty small one since most people just /afk through the transitions anyway, which means that even a low risk of something going wrong is probably not worth taking.
Game five of a tight set goes to stadium and the game crashes because your 99.9% foolproof mod couldn't handle that 0.1% edge case? Congratulations, not only are the players mad, but so are the spectators and your tournament has a bad reputation forever.
Honestly, your argument reads like one of those guys who has never organized an event of any kind ever chiming in with his big ideas for how a tournament should be ran.
comparing Project M with frozen stadium isn't fair.
Nintendo suddenly caring about the ruleset shouldn't be an argument, as nothing suggests that Nintendo would care.
Why would we put any weight on the Big House controller thing, when you have juggleguy making completely bullsh*t statement about box controllers. Acording to him, he has seen box controllers frying consoles lol.
Nintendo banning box controllers is just a rumor.
GTX having UCF vs The Big House not having it happened because it's still too early in the competitive comite process ("the 25" haven't even voted on a single thing yet). So, jugleguy could made the call of not having UCF. However, his opinion is not going to account for anything in the long run because, if "the 25" really want to vote on something (and the community want them to vote on something), jugleguy and the other 4 members of "the 5" would have to let "the 25" decide.
F*cking Armada said out loud (in a video that many saw) that he didn't want to play without UCF ever again. Do you think that jugleguy not wanting UCF would matter?
They ("the 5") will have to let "the 25" decide, "the 25" will approve UCF, end of the story (reasonable assumption, no?)
After that, most majors would eventually start using UCF, locals would too, as they would want to prepare their players for national tournaments. Jugleguy would be forced to implement UCF, just as he was forced to make wobling legal in his tournament (against his will) as everyone else was allowing wobling.
If people really wanted to vote about frozen pokemon stadium (nothing seems to indicate that that's the case), i'd asume that the same process would happen. The difference being that most people seem to want UCF, while almost no one seems interested in pushing for frozen stadium ;_; (i'm pretty sure that i would prefer to watch high level melee with frozen stadium).
Most of what i wrote in my comments was about the chance itselft (regular stadium vs frozen stadium), not it's implementation. I definitely didn't "come here and told other how a tournament should be ran".
I was simply saying that, taking into acount the work that people like dan salvato have been able to do, nothing seemed to indicate that getting frozen stadium working would be unfeasible.
However, i think that you calling me out on assuming that it would be "trivial" it's perfectly fine (as i did that in multiple posts).
Also, you hadn't said anything concrete in your previous comment, you actually went into detail here on what you meant, so thanks for that.
I would say the vast majority of the apprehension about frozen stadium results from the consequences of its implementation and nothing else. Everyone knows stadium would be better without the stage transformations, but that's not the hand we've been dealt.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
Melee would be better without a great number of things
Like id rather get janked out on a stadium transformation than get wobbled or chain grabbed etc, but it is what it is.
Like id rather get janked out on a stadium transformation than get wobbled or chain grabbed etc, but it is what it is.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I'm glad Amsa got in. S2J is also nice to see, if only because he's currently playing the best he ever has.
I have mixed feelings about modded stuff. A lot of the conservative nature of the community comes from a fear of Nintendo and wanting to keep the game as "pure" as possible. How far can you go with mods before you aren't really playing "Melee" anymore? Altering inputs? Altering stages? altering characters? It's a fine line, and it's still debatable whether something as simple as UCF crosses it.
For what it's worth, modded 64 is standard for tournaments.
Frozen Stadium has existed for a mod for a quite a while now. Fairly confident it's less buggy than normal Stadium and its fall-through-the-floor glitches and other mid-transform wonkiness, but not 100% sure.
I have mixed feelings about modded stuff. A lot of the conservative nature of the community comes from a fear of Nintendo and wanting to keep the game as "pure" as possible. How far can you go with mods before you aren't really playing "Melee" anymore? Altering inputs? Altering stages? altering characters? It's a fine line, and it's still debatable whether something as simple as UCF crosses it.
For what it's worth, modded 64 is standard for tournaments.
Frozen Stadium has existed for a mod for a quite a while now. Fairly confident it's less buggy than normal Stadium and its fall-through-the-floor glitches and other mid-transform wonkiness, but not 100% sure.
Frozen Stadium is in 20XX TE and works fine.
I think UCF is going to go through too, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. The main argument I have against PS vs. UCF is that frozen Pokemon Stadium is something anyone who's played Melee before would notice is different from vanilla, most people wouldn't notice UCF, which is why I think Nintendo might go after one and not the other. If Nintendo's sponsorship doesn't mean anything, why don't most majors run 20XX TE despite it largely being an upgrade over vanilla?
Fake edit: Also thinking about it again, you're right in that lots of people were pushing UCF but no one was pushing Frozen Stadium. But let's think about why that's the case. UCF probably wouldn't be a thing if it wasn't completely necessary, but it is. Because the number of Gamecube controllers that very top players think are of acceptable quality to use in tournament exist in fairly limited quantities, and eventually we'd reach a point where the only controllers we have left would have shitty dashback, which would prove a problem for the game. It was also necessary to give people an even playing field with new modified controllers like the B0XX. We don't NEED Frozen Stadium. Yeah it would probably make the game better. But we don't need it. Vanilla Stadium is at worst a little shitty, but it has no serious consequences on our current meta. Most of the community has a similar view as Anth0ny, which is that introducing modded stages 16 years into the life of a game when what we have now works fine is unnecessary.
I think UCF is going to go through too, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. The main argument I have against PS vs. UCF is that frozen Pokemon Stadium is something anyone who's played Melee before would notice is different from vanilla, most people wouldn't notice UCF, which is why I think Nintendo might go after one and not the other. If Nintendo's sponsorship doesn't mean anything, why don't most majors run 20XX TE despite it largely being an upgrade over vanilla?
Fake edit: Also thinking about it again, you're right in that lots of people were pushing UCF but no one was pushing Frozen Stadium. But let's think about why that's the case. UCF probably wouldn't be a thing if it wasn't completely necessary, but it is. Because the number of Gamecube controllers that very top players think are of acceptable quality to use in tournament exist in fairly limited quantities, and eventually we'd reach a point where the only controllers we have left would have shitty dashback, which would prove a problem for the game. It was also necessary to give people an even playing field with new modified controllers like the B0XX. We don't NEED Frozen Stadium. Yeah it would probably make the game better. But we don't need it. Vanilla Stadium is at worst a little shitty, but it has no serious consequences on our current meta. Most of the community has a similar view as Anth0ny, which is that introducing modded stages 16 years into the life of a game when what we have now works fine is unnecessary.
this does indeed seem to be the main thing. Not only are people concerned about it's implementation in-game, but they are also concerned about it's potential consequences outside of the game. Mainly, Nintendo noticing it, and not liking it.
I'd asume that TOs still have hope of Nintendo getting more involved in the future, so they will definitely never do anything that puts their relation with Nintendo at risk (and that's without mentioning that they get money from nintendo's sponsorship.
that's great to know.
Like i said above, i'm sure that nintendo's sponsorship means a lot.
I thought one of the main reason why 20XX TE wasn't generally adopted, was that it had a bad reputation because the first versions were not stable? (even though it has been fine since then)
thanks a lot for the answers everyone.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
I guess this didnt get posted
summit is scary
summit is scary
FYI, I wouldn't recommend linking to that channel. They basically just steal Twitch clips without permission for views.
Kadano, on disabling stadium transformations:
"Zauron developed the code back in 2010, and it was easily possible to integrate that code into Melee .isos with widely available tools (GC-Tools, GC-Rebuilder)."
edit:
ok the windmill can stay https://youtu.be/ImdnDt8ve90?t=34
edit2:
about 20XX TE (i'm sure that i had read this long ago but i had forgot about it already):
"Frozen Mode disables Shy Guys on Yoshi's Story, wind on Dreamland, transformations on Pokemon Stadium, and background transitions on Final Destination."
Seems like a massive improvement. Shame that it isn't used :/
edit3:
and according to dan salvato, game freezes were 100% resolved long ago?
edit4:
according to dan, the bug that could cause the game to crash mid match, was fixed in v.2a, which was released May 2016.
"Zauron developed the code back in 2010, and it was easily possible to integrate that code into Melee .isos with widely available tools (GC-Tools, GC-Rebuilder)."
edit:
ok the windmill can stay https://youtu.be/ImdnDt8ve90?t=34
edit2:
about 20XX TE (i'm sure that i had read this long ago but i had forgot about it already):
"Frozen Mode disables Shy Guys on Yoshi's Story, wind on Dreamland, transformations on Pokemon Stadium, and background transitions on Final Destination."
Seems like a massive improvement. Shame that it isn't used :/
edit3:
and according to dan salvato, game freezes were 100% resolved long ago?
edit4:
according to dan, the bug that could cause the game to crash mid match, was fixed in v.2a, which was released May 2016.
lvl99 Pixel
Member
oh its the channel that m2k doesnt like? I remember hearing something about that
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Probably. FD was counterpick in PM and it's controversial in Melee.
awesome article by tafo, with great data, about the marth vs fox matchup:
https://esports.htc.com/articles/fox-vs-marth
Tier 1 foxes vs tier 1 marth (ie: mango/leffen vs mew2king) would look a lot better for fox if mango used fox vs mew2king more frequently, instead of falco.
edit:
in the reddit comments, tafo explained one of the reasons why Fountain of Dreams platforms are supposedly worse for marth.
To this comment:
"Could someone go a little more in-depth into these two scenarios and why FoD can be more beneficial to Fox? Namely, Fox on platform with Marth underneath, and Marth on platform with Fox underneath.
For example, when Marth platform techchases a Fox, up-tilt should cover the entire platform when it is at a lower height, since the platform is closer to Marth. Why is the platform height better for Fox?"
tafo replyed:
"The platforms do not get the strong up-tilt or up-air nicely as it does on battlefield/stadium/yoshi's. So when you up-tilt, Fox can CC and then get out for significantly less damage."
thought it was interesting
https://esports.htc.com/articles/fox-vs-marth
Tier 1 foxes vs tier 1 marth (ie: mango/leffen vs mew2king) would look a lot better for fox if mango used fox vs mew2king more frequently, instead of falco.
edit:
in the reddit comments, tafo explained one of the reasons why Fountain of Dreams platforms are supposedly worse for marth.
To this comment:
"Could someone go a little more in-depth into these two scenarios and why FoD can be more beneficial to Fox? Namely, Fox on platform with Marth underneath, and Marth on platform with Fox underneath.
For example, when Marth platform techchases a Fox, up-tilt should cover the entire platform when it is at a lower height, since the platform is closer to Marth. Why is the platform height better for Fox?"
tafo replyed:
"The platforms do not get the strong up-tilt or up-air nicely as it does on battlefield/stadium/yoshi's. So when you up-tilt, Fox can CC and then get out for significantly less damage."
thought it was interesting
As a low-level Marth main, losing the guaranteed tech followups on the low FoD platforms hurts me a lot. IMO, the two main options that you lose with the low platforms are 1) tipper up air reaction techchases and 2) easy fsmash tipper spacing.
You can waveland on the low platforms faster, though, so I've been doing more up-throw -> waveland -> grab on FoD.
Hey guys. I guess this is pretty much over, but I really dug talking about Melee with all of you. As far as I'm aware, we never had a Melee Discord, so I went ahead and created one real quick in the interest of keeping in touch and talking about why HBox is/isn't killing the game, maybe we can actually get some netplay going too. If one already exists, send me a link or something.
This community was small, but it was far and away the best part about this site. Later dudes, hope to see you all elsewhere on the internet.
Quote for link.
**********
This community was small, but it was far and away the best part about this site. Later dudes, hope to see you all elsewhere on the internet.
Quote for link.
**********
My heart breaks seeing this...
It seems one thing in life is certain: Everything dies... except Melee. Melee never dies because Melee players are crazy people and we'll never stop playing!
Thanks so much for doing this. Everyone get in here!!!!!
It seems one thing in life is certain: Everything dies... except Melee. Melee never dies because Melee players are crazy people and we'll never stop playing!
Thanks so much for doing this. Everyone get in here!!!!!
Sure, not everyone is losing their head.
And Gamecube controller support on nintendo consoles
Well..
It's been a pleasure gentlemen..
Well, it is the best Nintendo controller after all...
ICYMI: Smash Summit 5 is going to use UCF, according to Leff's twitter:
https://twitter.com/tsm_leffen/status/922846990031048704
Pretty nice, I think every tourney should use it.
https://twitter.com/tsm_leffen/status/922846990031048704
Pretty nice, I think every tourney should use it.
Not really sure how UCF works exactly. Is there some good critical discussion about it somewhere?
It's a save game mod (like 20XX TE, no modded console required) that aims to fix two issues:
That's basically what it does.
http://www.20xx.me/ucf.html
That's basically what it does.
http://www.20xx.me/ucf.html
