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[UnemployedVillain]

None of us is bringing actual data to this though. Just examples. Can't really claim to have come to any data driven conclusions here.

And actually, such an analysis would be great toward making the case that "hey, idiots! Your strategy of banking on white leads is not viable anymore!" Anyone know if such a study exists?

Yes, but there is lots of data showing
http://www.thewrap.com/how-hispanics-became-hollywoods-most-important-audience/

Hispanics are the fastest-growing ethnic group in the United States, and their passion for movies is unsurpassed. The group bought 25 percent of the tickets sold in 2013 though they comprise just 17 percent of the population, according to the Motion Picture Association of America’s year-end study.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/hollywoods-race-problem-an-insular-industry-struggles-to-change/2014/12/19/d870df04-8625-11e4-9534-f79a23c40e6c_story.html

Hollywood executives sometimes argue privately that movies starring minorities or that confront racial issues are a tougher sell in foreign markets, where they see the biggest growth for their industry. But “12 Years a Slave,” for instance, was a hit overseas with 70 percent of sales in foreign countries, according to Box Office Mojo.

Black moviegoers are also a huge market, accounting for 195 million visits to movie theaters in 2011, a report from BET Networks said. African Americans also make an average 13.4 visits a year to the movies, compared to 11 times for the general market.

And yet minorities — particularly Latinos — are the fastest growing movie audience and make up 44 percent of the nation’s most avid theatergoers, according to the Motion Picture Association of America. [2014]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2016/04/20/whos-going-to-the-movies-in-america-and-around-the-world/

(In the United States, Asian moviegoers had one of the highest per capita attendance rates of any ethic group, attending 4.9 movies each

 

[crisdecuba]

i can make a list of all the films that failed or bombed at the box office in the last 2 years that starred big name white leading actors if you'd like.

Oh crap, sorry. I don't disagree with you - the strategy of banking on a well known white male lead is dead.

My sense is that studios haven't learned this financially yet because you still get some successes here and there.

 

[Ratrat]

Prove it. Show the data. For as many successes, there are far more bombs using that formula. It's simply a formula that's constantly repeated because that's how things have always been done and people are slow to change.

47 Ronin was an Asian fantasy action film budgeted at 175 million dollars and starred Keanu Reeves and was one of the biggest bombs of 2013.

Western movie goers are so racist that even Keanu won't get them to see these movies. The movie would have made even less with an Asian actor.

 

[shintoki]

Legendary was not acquired by Wanda until this year. This has been in the can before the Wanda purchase:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...-wall-film-legendary-film-20150702-story.html

It does state the investors for the film are Chinese with several false starts, but the original idea does come from an American produce. So I guess it is them doing the usual trope, but Chinese funded this time still.

 

[andythinkpad]

i can make a list of all the films that failed or bombed at the box office in the last 2 years that starred big name white leading actors if you'd like.

Make a list of big budget movies with new comer leads (like that new King Arthur movie) is more relevent IMO.

A proven actor name can mitigate risk because you can presale a movie with big names before it's even made.

 

[lightskintwin]

Oh crap, sorry. I don't disagree with you - the strategy of banking on a well known white male lead is dead.

My sense is that studios haven't learned this financially yet because you still get some successes here and there.

Exactly,

If all you do is primarily cast white leads then of course you're going to have a lot of successes and you can rationalize all the misses due to something else.

I think the biggest issue is that Hollywood is a white elitist industry that's predominately white men from the executives, producers to the creators (writers, directors) and they WANT to cast white leads. Which honestly, I can't necessarily fault them.

The reality is you need more minority decision makers and creators to really make a difference.

 

[Freshmaker]

There's a reason John Cena learned Mandarin!

GET READY

Guan Yu starring John Cena. It'd be a good fit. He could deliver an Attitude Adjustment to Cao Cao.

 

[UrbanRats]

What China needs to do is start showing some of their home grown movies in america and all over the world like we do. Translate them and start making asian stars.

You can actually watch Chinese movies, you know.
But i'm not sure how much American theaters are willing to pick up stuff like Black Coal Thin Ice, i'm not sure what distribution (if any) had there.
Several of their blockbusters i've seen looked really bad, i have to say, especially when the subpar CGI kicks in.

I honestly don't think it's as easy as "start making movies and sell us your stars" though, there are many cultural barriers to cross, for an American guy (especially a white American) to go and watch a big Chinese movie, entirely produced in China, like he was just going to watch the Avengers, especially if that movie is meant to reflect a different (Chinese) culture, and isn't made as a shitty bootleg version of an Hollywood blockbuster, trying to appeal to US folks.
They have the money to push through to try it though, so who knows, in time, it may happen.

For now they seem to resort to the more cynical approach of just giving Matt Damon the paycheck, and hope that someone will be convinced by that.
After all i don't think Chinese movie producers give 2 shits about Asian Americans and their problems.
And of course we already know Hollywood certainly doesn't.

That said, no reason to stop nagging Hollywood about it, i feel like the message is starting to get through.
-
Also, and this is only tangentially related, Hollywood isn't synonymous with cinema, not only internationally, but even in the US alone.

Oh crap, sorry. I don't disagree with you - the strategy of banking on a well known white male lead is dead.

My sense is that studios haven't learned this financially yet because you still get some successes here and there.

I also agree with this.
Spoiler: Nobody is going to give a shit about this movie, Matt Damon or not, just like they didn't care about Gods of Egypt and so and so.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Make a list of big budget movies with new comer leads (like that new King Arthur movie) is more relevent IMO.

A proven actor name can mitigate risk because you can presale a movie with big names before it's even made.

I would say Avatar came out when Sam Worthington wasn't a household name. Star Wars VII also had no name leads. Alice in Wonderland(2010, Alice's actress is no name, but Johnny depp was heavily marketed in place of her, so I don't think that counts..)...

Looking at the top 30 highest grossing films worldwide...lots of them use 'proven' actors with the exception of avatar and star wars(Worthington was in films before that, but he wasn't a proven/known actor wayback when)

This is the list I"m looking at for highest grossing movies worldwide-

Released Title Domestic
Box Office International
Box Office Worldwide
Box Office
1 2009 Avatar $760,507,625 $2,023,411,357 $2,783,918,982
2 1997 Titanic $658,672,302 $1,548,943,366 $2,207,615,668
3 2015 Star Wars Ep. VII: The Force Awakens $936,662,225 $1,122,000,000 $2,058,662,225
4 2015 Jurassic World $652,198,010 $1,018,130,015 $1,670,328,025
5 2012 The Avengers $623,279,547 $896,200,000 $1,519,479,547
6 2015 Furious 7 $351,032,910 $1,162,986,161 $1,514,019,071
7 2015 Avengers: Age of Ultron $459,005,868 $945,700,000 $1,404,705,868
8 2011 Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part II $381,011,219 $960,500,000 $1,341,511,219
9 2013 Frozen $400,738,009 $873,496,971 $1,274,234,980
10 2013 Iron Man 3 $408,992,272 $806,400,000 $1,215,392,272
11 2015 Minions $336,045,770 $827,578,711 $1,163,624,481
12 2016 Captain America: Civil War $406,889,223 $743,600,000 $1,150,489,223
13 2003 The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King $377,845,905 $763,562,762 $1,141,408,667
14 2011 Transformers: Dark of the Moon $352,390,543 $771,400,000 $1,123,790,543
15 2012 Skyfall $304,360,277 $806,166,704 $1,110,526,981
16 2014 Transformers: Age of Extinction $245,439,076 $858,600,000 $1,104,039,076
17 2012 The Dark Knight Rises $448,139,099 $636,300,000 $1,084,439,099
18 2010 Toy Story 3 $415,004,880 $654,813,349 $1,069,818,229
19 2006 Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest $423,315,812 $642,900,000 $1,066,215,812
20 2011 Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides $241,063,875 $804,600,000 $1,045,663,875
21 1993 Jurassic Park $395,708,305 $643,104,279 $1,038,812,584
22 1999 Star Wars Ep. I: The Phantom Menace $474,544,677 $552,500,000 $1,027,044,677
23 2010 Alice in Wonderland $334,191,110 $691,300,000 $1,025,491,110
24 2016 Zootopia $341,260,194 $680,500,000 $1,021,760,194
25 2012 The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey $303,003,568 $714,000,000 $1,017,003,568
26 2008 The Dark Knight $533,345,358 $469,546,000 $1,002,891,358
27 1994 The Lion King $422,780,140 $564,700,000 $987,480,140
28 2013 Despicable Me 2 $368,065,385 $606,808,379 $974,873,764
29 2001 Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone $317,575,550 $657,179,821 $974,755,371
30 2007 Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End $309,420,425 $654,000,000 $963,420,425

 

[kswiston]

i can make a list of all the films that failed or bombed at the box office in the last 2 years that starred big name white leading actors if you'd like.

I don't even think you need to focus on the negative stuff.

Here are the top 30 films of the past 5 box office years worldwide (2012-2016):

Place Title Worldwide Gross
1) Star Wars: The Force Awakens $2068M
2) Jurassic World $1670M
3) The Avengers $1520M
4) Furious 7 $1516M
5) Age of Ultron $1405M
6) Frozen $1277M
7) Iron Man 3 $1215M
8) Minions $1159M
9) Captain America: Civil War $1151M
10) Skyfall $1109M
11) Transformers: Age of Extinction $1104M
12) The Dark Knight Rises $1085M
13) Zootopia $1023M
14) The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey $1021M
15) Despicable Me 2 $971M
16) The Hobbit: Desolation of Smaug $958M
17) The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies $956M
18) The Jungle Book (still in release) $940M
19) Spectre $881M
20) Ice Age Continental Drift $877M
21) Batman v Superman $873M
22) The Hunger Games: Catching Fire $865M
23) Inside Out $857M
24) Twilight: Breaking Dawn 2 $830M
25) Finding Dory (still in release) $790M
26) Fast and Furious 6 $789M
27) Guardians of the Galaxy $773M
28) Maleficent $759M
29) The Amazing Spider-Man $758M
30) The Hunger Games Mockingjay Pt1 $755M

Point to the films where a big name actor was the major contributor to the film's success. Maybe Jolie in Maleficent (since I remember there being a lot of talk about her taking on that role prior to release)?

27 of the 30 are sequels, remakes, or Franchise films. The 3 that aren't (Frozen, Zootopia, and Inside Out) are animated.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

27 of the 30 are sequels, remakes, or Franchise films. The 3 that aren't (Frozen, Zootopia, and Inside Out) are animated.

And those 3 are from Disney-You can say that Disney in itself can sell movies based on the fact that it's disney. Except John Carter. Not even they could save that.

 

[lightskintwin]

Also, and this is only tangentially related, Hollywood isn't synonymous with cinema, not only internationally, but even in the US alone.

No doubt, as a lot of independent films get financed outside of the Hollywood studio system.

Adi Shankar discusses how movie financing is accomplished using domestic value, international value, and subsidy/government rebate and domestic and international value is determined by major movie star, director, and intellectual property attached

He really gives insight on how simple the formula is in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWP88WKVBKs

 

[BronsonLee]

If Disney fumbles on marketing (John Carter, Prince of Persia, Tomorrowland) it fucks up HARD

 

[lightskintwin]

If Disney fumbles on marketing (John Carter, Prince of Persia, Tomorrowland) it fucks up HARD

Lone Ranger too.

 

[starchild excalibur]

What was the last asian-american-led film that failed at the box office? They don't even get a chance.

I don't disagree with you there, but my point was that it takes people actively rejecting the shit that perpetuates a lack of diversity and being vocal as to why they're rejecting it. When you have films like this new Matt Damon one coming out, people need to reject its perpetuation of the white savior myth and help it bomb badly enough that the next time a film like this is conceptualized maybe the execs will stop and say, "Yeah, let's not do it like that Matt Damon one last time."

And I know that this is an uphill battle. And I know that it's stupid that it takes so much concerted effort to get even a bit of multi-racial diversity in a bigger film, but the status quo has been the status quo for so long that I don't know how you can hope to shake it up unless you see audiences start doing that.

Execs react with whatever the fuck they want to. Don't get it twisted. Where were all the minority lead comedies after Harold and Kumar's success? Where are all the minority ensemble action movies after Fast & Furious' successes? It's a bullshit copout answer. Successful movies with minorities are ignored constantly. The only time they get attention is when they bomb so some exec can point their finger and justify casting white people in everything

Conversely when a movie with a star studded predominantly white cast bombs, "Shit happens"

Harold and Kumar was never a gigantic money maker. With the exception of the second film, they barely made back their budgets. The third one (the Christmas one) didn't at all. Fast and the Furious's success is more credited to the likes of Paul Walker, Vin Diesel, and the Rock than Ludacris, Tyrese, or Sung Kang. The Rock - a minority - regularly leads bombastic box office films. Vin Diesel often tries to with fair to middling success (the last Chronicles of Riddick, Witch Hunter... and I'd be amazed if XXX 3 does well).

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you that execs have a bullshit sense of logic that they operate on. But they're basing their "knowledge" on a century-long premise of "Well, most of the successful films we've had have featured white people," without realizing that most of that was influenced by a default assumption instead of careful, measured testing.

The one thing that I get excited about with Chinese co-funded films is the hope that they'd push more Asian and Asian-American leads in their film instead of kowtowing to the assumption that they still need white leads in films that aren't even based on white people (Exodus) or humans even (Turtles: Out of the Shadows). They don't need to go for $200 million dollar summer block buster films. They could easily do smaller projects where they could insist on having Asian and Asian-American led casts, with smaller risks but greater chance of success but I don't see much of that yet. And hence, the status quo continues to remain even when they're in such a lucrative position to change it.

They could easily do an Asian-led, English-language version of The Wailing set in a small town and it'd do phenomenally relative to its budget.

 

[numble]

I would say Avatar came out when Sam Worthington wasn't a household name. Star Wars VII also had no name leads. Alice in Wonderland(2010, Alice's actress is no name, but Johnny depp was heavily marketed in place of her, so I don't think that counts..)...

Looking at the top 30 highest grossing films worldwide...lots of them use 'proven' actors with the exception of avatar and star wars(Worthington was in films before that, but he wasn't a proven/known actor wayback when)

This is the list I"m looking at for highest grossing movies worldwide-

Your list actually disproves your point. Most of those do not use "proven" actors. Titanic did not. The Avengers do not have any "proven" actors--the actors generally bomb outside of Marvel movies. Hobbit, Hunger Games and Bond did not use proven actors. You are actually giving a list of the movies where actors broke out of box office mediocrity (by starring in high value IP!).

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Your list actually disproves your point. Most of those do not use "proven" actors. Titanic did not. The Avengers do not have any "proven" actors--the actors generally bomb outside of Marvel movies. Hobbit, Hunger Games and Bond did not use proven actors. You are actually giving a list of the movies where actors broke out of box office mediocrity (by starring in high value IP!).

Actually, Hunger games, the sequel is higher than the first one, and JLaw was a known quantity. Titanic had DiCaprio who was known, Daniel Craig/Skyfall again, it's a sequel, at that point he was a known quantity.(It's why you see sequels higher than the progenitors).

And yeah, the other stark difference(Aside from Avatar) is that all those movies were known IPs.

(Which is why I found it funny 'The Great Wall' has matt damon, when actors don't really sell movies these days).

 

[shintoki]

I would say Avatar came out when Sam Worthington wasn't a household name. Star Wars VII also had no name leads. Alice in Wonderland(2010, Alice's actress is no name, but Johnny depp was heavily marketed in place of her, so I don't think that counts..)...

Looking at the top 30 highest grossing films worldwide...lots of them use 'proven' actors with the exception of avatar and star wars(Worthington was in films before that, but he wasn't a proven/known actor wayback when)

This is the list I"m looking at for highest grossing movies worldwide-

I would say it's the opposite.

RDJ was still the guy on Ally McBeal when he was cast as Ironman. Ironman is the role that made him and made people forget about it.

Same with Pratt in Jurassic Park/GOTG. He was that guy on The Office prior, then he became Star Lord.

Same with LOTR and Bond, it always makes the actor a star. Craig was best known prior for being a whiny character in The Road to Perdition when casted. And no one in LOTR outside of McKellen, who was best known as Magento.

If we want to really think, which actors made the film a success who already had Star Power.
Deep for Alice and Pirates.
Jolie for Maleficent.
And I'll give a swing over to The Dark Knight, since it was a strong ensemble cast of all well known, successful actors.

 

[Aruarian Reflection]

Asian American actresses, while having the same problem, do not have as hard of a problem due to the asian fetish and golden flower tropes or the fact hollywood likes to put asian chicks with the white guy.

It's kind of funny that Constance actually dates a white guy in real life

 

[crisdecuba]

I think the biggest issue is that Hollywood is a white elitist industry that's predominately white men from the executives, producers to the creators (writers, directors) and they WANT to cast white leads. Which honestly, I can't necessarily fault them.

Why do you think want to?

 

[lightskintwin]

Why do you think want to?

Because that's what they know: White people. And that's how the industry's casting has always been.

 

[kswiston]

If we want to really think, which actors made the film a success who already had Star Power.
Deep for Alice and Pirates.
Jolie for Maleficent.
And I'll give a swing over to The Dark Knight, since it was a strong ensemble cast of all well known, successful actors.

Johnny Depp wasn't much better than pre-Iron Man RDJ heading into Pirates of the Caribbean. He's also had nothing but Box Office disappointments for 5 years now.

The Dark Knight did well because it was a Batman sequel to a Batman movie that many people thought was the best of the franchise to date. The Dark Knight was the 4th Batman film to break the opening weekend record despite those films having 3 completely different directors and casts.

 

[numble]

Actually, Hunger games, the sequel is higher than the first one, and JLaw was a known quantity. Titanic had DiCaprio who was known, Daniel Craig/Skyfall again, it's a sequel, at that point he was a known quantity.(It's why you see sequels higher than the progenitors).

And yeah, the other stark difference(Aside from Avatar) is that all those movies were known IPs.

(Which is why I found it funny 'The Great Wall' has matt damon, when actors don't really sell movies these days).

DiCaprio was not really known--he did not have any $100 million movies before Titanic. He did not even have any $50 million movies. After Titanic he had 13 movies that were above $50 million.

Sequels to successful movies generally do higher, not because of the star power. The actors sign up for the sequels when they star in the first movie anyway. It is not a case of the studio greenlighting the sequel because of the star power of the actor. Case in fact: Daniel Craig, RDJ, Johnny Depp are known for bombing in roles outside of Bond, Ironman and Captain Jack--they are not box office draws, the IPs are.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

Fun Fact, Matt Damon turned down the Jake role in Avatar.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

LOL @ bad criticism. He admits it's a lovely film, and criticizes what makes it dangerous because it's an imperialist film that pretends to be anti imperialist.

The funny thing is white supremacy is so prevalent and normalized that you can't even see it when it's staring right in front of your face.

I recall it being a bad movie, as a matter of fact, for reasons unrelated to what race is in what position in the story, but my point is that it's bad criticism because it applies a pre-fabricated moral barometer of what the movie "should" be instead of engaging it on its own terms. The reviewer's claims of the "imperialistic" nature of the movie are paper-thin, and the kind of narrow-mindedness required to wall off stories as "belonging" more to this or that group is antithetical to the very nature of art and creativity, themselves.

 

[lightskintwin]

Fun Fact, Matt Damon turned down the Jake role in Avatar.

So he's making it up for it here. LOL Since he couldn't save the Na'vi, I guess the Chinese will have to do.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

He's not fighting monsters in China while white because of racism or the such he's only fighting while white because that just happens to be where the monsters are. His people have centuries of fighting monsters and other things that don't look like him. Their ancient name of the warriors were "Colonialism"

 

[4Tran]

I would say it's the opposite.

RDJ was still the guy on Ally McBeal when he was cast as Ironman. Ironman is the role that made him and made people forget about it.

Same with Pratt in Jurassic Park/GOTG. He was that guy on The Office prior, then he became Star Lord.

Same with LOTR and Bond, it always makes the actor a star. Craig was best known prior for being a whiny character in The Road to Perdition when casted. And no one in LOTR outside of McKellen, who was best known as Magento.

If we want to really think, which actors made the film a success who already had Star Power.
Deep for Alice and Pirates.
Jolie for Maleficent.
And I'll give a swing over to The Dark Knight, since it was a strong ensemble cast of all well known, successful actors.

Yeah, when it comes to the biggest blockbusters, star power barely matters at all. These films have huge marketing budgets so they're able to sell their films without needing any big names attached to them. Where stars really shine are in smaller films with smaller marketing budgets. Those need all the exposure they can get, and big stars can help with that.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

I would say it's the opposite.

RDJ was still the guy on Ally McBeal when he was cast as Ironman. Ironman is the role that made him and made people forget about it.

Same with Pratt in Jurassic Park/GOTG. He was that guy on The Office prior, then he became Star Lord.

Same with LOTR and Bond, it always makes the actor a star. Craig was best known prior for being a whiny character in The Road to Perdition when casted. And no one in LOTR outside of McKellen, who was best known as Magento.

If we want to really think, which actors made the film a success who already had Star Power.
Deep for Alice and Pirates.
Jolie for Maleficent.
And I'll give a swing over to The Dark Knight, since it was a strong ensemble cast of all well known, successful actors.

You think Chris Pratt was on The Office, your post is invalid

Rdj pre iron man was more known for the last half of this joke
https://youtu.be/rNRx2oH4Ors

 

[crisdecuba]

Because that's what they know: White people. And that's how the industry's casting has always been.

Familiarity and fear of change? I think those are very true things.

I think I'm spoiled by working in an industry where everything is data and regulation driven. I kind of copy paste that as the approach that studios must be taking too. I have a hard time thinking that they don't have analysts looking at data to drive these decisions as well. I know in some instances they do (for example, the Sony leak revealed stuff about whether Denzel could open movies big in other countries), but at the same time I also know that relationships and familiarity go along way toward getting you hired in Hollywood. For example, I think this was on a nerdist podcast, and they were talking to a couple of folks from Jurassic world, and the implication (and I dont remember if they realized what they were saying) was that Bryce Dallas Howard has done well in Hollywood not due to acting skill, but because she is really really great to work with on set (a great onset personality basically). Hiring her based on that would not be data driven - it would be familiarity and relationship driven.

So you're probably right now that I type it out loud. Familiarity and fear of change.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[lightskintwin]

I recall it being a bad movie, as a matter of fact, but my point is that it's bad criticism because it applies a pre-fabricated moral barometer of what the movie "should" be instead of engaging it on its own terms. The reviewer's claims of the "imperialistic" nature of the movie are also paper-thin, and the kind of narrow-mindedness required to wall off stories as "belonging" more to this or that group is antithetical to the very nature of art and creativity, themselves.

Nah, The Last Samurai is a pretty good film. There's no limitations to what film criticism is and what it can or can't critique. The majority of people don't judge pieces of art in a vacuum. If I was to remake this film exactly the same and called it The Last Zulu Warrior, and adapted it to South Africa, and the main protagonist was Chris Pratt playing an European Voortrekker. Do you think it would be much more criticized by how the story is told through a White Male protagonist regardless of how well the film is made by film critics? If so, why? Have you read any of the Gods of Egypt or Exodus Gods and Kings reviews? You honestly come across of not being familiar with film criticism in the past 30 years.

 

[D i Z]

It's kind of funny that Constance actually dates a white guy in real life

And? That has nothing to do with the state of POC leads in Hollywood film making. It has absolutely zero to do with the production of this film. And it certainly has less than nothing to do with her message about POC viewers and the reflections of themselves that they have while young and impressionable.

This kind of reductive tactic, using her relationship to undercut her message is straight up crass.

 

[Forsaken82]

I love Zhang Yimou films. The guy has true eye for visual story telling and is a solid director for an epic fantasy, but without a major hollywood presence (race is irrelevant) this movie would never do well in theaters. The strong hollywood presence is why this movie will get a wide release. Even Jet Li at the height of his hollywood rise couldn't make the excellent Hero a major american release. Let's not even speak of House of Flying Daggers or Curse of the Golden Flowers which performed like garbage in the states. 2 additionally strong films with a horrible american release.

 

[lightskintwin]

And? That has nothing to do with the state of POC leads in Hollywood film making. It has absolutely zero to do with the production of this film. And it certainly has less than nothing to do with her message about POC viewers and the reflections of themselves that they have while young and impressionable.

This kind of reductive tactic, using her relationship to undercut her message is straight up crass.

You're right and I agree, but I'm not gonna lie it does remind me of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8gP9GX2udI

 

[BreezyLimbo]

DiCaprio was not really known--he did not have any $100 million movies before Titanic. He did not even have any $50 million movies. After Titanic he had 13 movies that were above $50 million.

Sequels to successful movies generally do higher, not because of the star power. The actors sign up for the sequels when they star in the first movie anyway. It is not a case of the studio greenlighting the sequel because of the star power of the actor. Case in fact: Daniel Craig, RDJ, Johnny Depp are known for bombing in roles outside of Bond, Ironman and Captain Jack--they are not box office draws, the IPs are.

Wasnt the argument whether they had proven actors? Why bring an arbitrary number such as 50 million for whether they are a well knoen actor or not.

 

[LightofRohan]

Isnt it crazy the people that DO complain about this though? "Chinese movies should have chinese people! Thats it! Stop being racist!!" Haha. Japanese people stick with Japanese people, Indian people stick with indian people!

 

[lightskintwin]

Isnt it crazy the people that DO complain about this though? "Chinese movies should have chinese people! Thats it! Stop being racist!!" Haha. Japanese people stick with Japanese people, Indian people stick with indian people!

Talk about a strawman. Nobody's upset that Matt Damon's in the movie. It's the fact this country, historical period, iconic cultural world wonder, and group of people are centered around his character.

You don't have to agree, but it's not too much to ask to at least understand the situation before reducing it to LOL "Chinese movies should have Chinese people"!

 

[firehawk12]

The thing is that Chinese movies want to be taken seriously, and the easiest way to do that is to cast famous Hollywood actors.

This is why Christian Bale is the star of a film about Nanking, which is basically the Chinese version of the Aushwitz story. It makes no sense, but I guess their assumption is that no one would care at all if Bale wasn't in it (and they're probably right).

 

[LightofRohan]

Talk about a strawman. Nobody's upset that Matt Damon's in the movie. It's the fact this country, historical period, iconic cultural world wonder, and group of people are centered around his character.

You don't have to agree, but it's not too much to ask to at least understand the situation before reducing it to LOL "Chinese movies should have Chinese people"!

I'm sorry I offended you, please have my condolences. Hopefully you can make it through this trying times.

I wasnt talking to you btw. Talk about a strawman!!!! Haha. Strawman!!!

 

[lightskintwin]

I'm sorry I offended you, please have my condolences. Hopefully you can make it through this trying times.

I wasnt talking to you btw. Talk about a strawman!!!! Haha. Strawman!!!

Why even post if you're not interested in engaging in any serious dialogue with other posters? You made a general post reducing the issue to something it wasn't. It's ok to disagree but at the very least be accurate on what exactly the issue is.

 

[starchild excalibur]

The thing is that Chinese movies want to be taken seriously, and the easiest way to do that is to cast famous Hollywood actors.

This is why Christian Bale is the star of a film about Nanking, which is basically the Chinese version of the Aushwitz story. It makes no sense, but I guess their assumption is that no one would care at all if Bale wasn't in it (and they're probably right).

And it's absolutely idiotic logic because if anything the last decade and a half has proven it's that Hollywood actors can help a blockbuster, but they certainly can't create one.

 

[Rooth]

I love Zhang Yimou films. The guy has true eye for visual story telling and is a solid director for an epic fantasy, but without a major hollywood presence (race is irrelevant) this movie would never do well in theaters. The strong hollywood presence is why this movie will get a wide release. Even Jet Li at the height of his hollywood rise couldn't make the excellent Hero a major american release. Let's not even speak of House of Flying Daggers or Curse of the Golden Flowers which performed like garbage in the states. 2 additionally strong films with a horrible american release.

Let's look at The Flowers of War with Christian Bale and also a Zhang Yimou film.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=flowersofwar.htm

A total domestic box office of $311,434. If an Asian lead pulled in that figure domestically you'd have some people here making the case it was cause nobody wants to see Asian leads. But when Batman himself draws these numbers then it's every reason under the sun than the fault of the male white actor.

Realistically, whether a film finds success or fails depends on so many factors. We've seen good films not go anywhere. We've seen bad films make tons of money. Movies with nobodies can become hits. Films packed to the brim with major stars don't find an audience. The only consistent thing is that when there's a pretty new white actor or actress, Hollywood will put its entire weight behind him or her. They'll give these people chances to grow into stars, work with famous directors and offer them roles in major franchises.

 

[Messofanego]

The problem is more that every time they bring over a Asian star, they rarely do well. Look at Jet Li.
Jet Li is a fantastic martial artist, legendary action star and actually has good action chops, but once they brought him over on the Hollywood block. Those films didn't even reached his Hong Kong films to the heel.

And it's not because he cannot do english based films justice. When he was let loose in Unleashed / Danny the Dog, he was awesome. I was blown away that acting wise he could hold himself against Morgan Freeman and Hoskins.
But that wasn't a Hollywood film.
Hollywood wants to contain and control. The producers are often egomaniacs and don't understand. When they want to remake Oldboy, it's not that they could give any fucks about Chan Wook-Park or Korean cinema. They are just doing classic American Exceptionalism, of taking from other cultures and making it their own. They'll take others stuff and do their own spin on it.
Europeans have always been salty because they feel, European star filmmakers sold out to the Americans more than a hundred years ago, and that was the end of it.
One really has to understand that there already is being an increased pandering to their marked. China box office have saved a lot of films blockbusters from being flops, and we've seen films with added fan service just for the chinese. As their market becomes more and more, important, everyone hopes for that Pacific Rim title, because they love that.

Unleashed was awesome, but yeah that was a martial arts film mainly.

Where's a John Cho romcom?

We can get a whole romcom TV show with Aziz Ansari (Master Of None) that becomes critically acclaimed and really popular while also being socially relevant, but film-wise it's I guess a more financially risky affair? But then how much do even just romcoms really cost? Considering how cheap horror movies are, where are horror movies with minorities as leads, considering they also form a major audience demographic? Minorities make Hollywood money (I'm sure MHWilliams could back me up on this), studio execs need to drop their fears and face facts.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

The thing is that Chinese movies want to be taken seriously, and the easiest way to do that is to cast famous Hollywood actors.

This is why Christian Bale is the star of a film about Nanking, which is basically the Chinese version of the Aushwitz story. It makes no sense, but I guess their assumption is that no one would care at all if Bale wasn't in it (and they're probably right).

Why doesnt it make sense to have (a white) Bale in that movie? The movie was based on a real story.

 

[Sunster]

Maybe it's taken more seriously by people who finance the movie. But It won't be taken seriously by viewers. As much as a monster movie could be taken seriously that is. It looks pretty stupid tbh.

 

[milkham]

Why doesnt it make sense to have (a white) Bale in that movie? The movie was based on a real story.

Then his character should have been named Minnie Vautrin instead of John Miller

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Let's look at The Flowers of War with Christian Bale and also a Zhang Yimou film.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=flowersofwar.htm

A total domestic box office of $311,434. If an Asian lead pulled in that figure domestically you'd have some people here making the case it was cause nobody wants to see Asian leads. But when Batman himself draws these numbers then it's every reason under the sun than the fault of the male white actor.

Realistically, whether a film finds success or fails depends on so many factors. We've seen good films not go anywhere. We've seen bad films make tons of money. Movies with nobodies can become hits. Films packed to the brim with major stars don't find an audience. The only consistent thing is that when there's a pretty new white actor or actress, Hollywood will put its entire weight behind him or her. They'll give these people chances to grow into stars, work with famous directors and offer them roles in major franchises.

Real talk. It's like she said, a white actor can be in any number of bombs and it'll always be attributed to other factors, but a minority lead movie that bombs? You can be sure they're seen as the primary reason regardless of everything else surrounding the movie.

It's a blatantly race based double standard, but some people here are so afraid of that r word they will vehemently deny it and come up with that most outlandish alternate explanations. Execs want white people in roles. It's what they know. It's what makes them comfortable.

 

[Usobuko]

After decades of conditioning and western countries being at the forefront of economic growth, the only way for the whole world to be interested in a movie that targets all of them as audience is having white leads. This is the effect and influential reach of Hollywood.

And some people in this thread is simply fine with this system going forward.

 

[firehawk12]

Let's look at The Flowers of War with Christian Bale and also a Zhang Yimou film.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/...owersofwar.htm

A total domestic box office of $311,434. If an Asian lead pulled in that figure domestically you'd have some people here making the case it was cause nobody wants to see Asian leads. But when Batman himself draws these numbers then it's every reason under the sun than the fault of the male white actor.

Realistically, whether a film finds success or fails depends on so many factors. We've seen good films not go anywhere. We've seen bad films make tons of money. Movies with nobodies can become hits. Films packed to the brim with major stars don't find an audience. The only consistent thing is that when there's a pretty new white actor or actress, Hollywood will put its entire weight behind him or her. They'll give these people chances to grow into stars, work with famous directors and offer them roles in major franchises.

I guess the assumption that it would have done much worse without Bale in it at all. I mean you can look at the sales of other Nanjing-based films, but I assume they don't even reach that paltry number in terms of box office (if they even screened in theaters at all).

Why doesnt it make sense to have (a white) Bale in that movie? The movie was based on a real story.

Wait, it was? It was so cartoony I honestly just assumed it was a dramatization like Stonewall. Like you have one guy take out an entire platoon of Japanese soldiers, culminating with him hooking up like 10 grenades to himself in order to blow himself up when he died? Bale being the drunk white guy who doesn't care about the girls until he gets his inevitable change of heart and sacrifices everything to save them?

 

[duckroll]

Wait, it was? It was so cartoony I honestly just assumed it was a dramatization like Stonewall. Like you have one guy take out an entire platoon of Japanese soldiers, culminating with him hooking up like 10 grenades to himself in order to blow himself up when he died? Bale being the drunk white guy who doesn't care about the girls until he gets his inevitable change of heart and sacrifices everything to save them?

It's not based on a true story. It's based on a fictional novel that was inspired by certain historical facts. There was a white female missionary who spent much of her life contributing to education in China for children. She kept a journal of her time there, including the period during the war which affected her so much when she returned home after the war she eventually killed herself after several failed attempts. The actual "flowers of war" story about the prostitute assassins and dance trope stuff is all just the novel I believe.