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[dramatis]

There's bankable Asian Americans / Canadians in Asia. But I those guys never get approached by Hollywood for some reason. Leehom Wang, Mark Chao, Daniel Wu are all big leading actors fluent in English. Tony Leung's English is pretty good as well being raised in Hong Kong.

I thought Leehom was sort of keeping low after he got married?

What's interesting to me is that there are quite a number of Chinese actors that can speak English well (to add Nicholas Tse to your list), but in the major blockbusters, it's always Chinese actresses who get picked up for a role even if they don't speak English half as well as those listed Chinese actors do.

Fan Bingbing for IM3 and for Xmen (she can barely even speak Cantonese, much less say English)
Angelababy for Independence Day
Li Bingbing for Transformers (to her credit, I think she speaks better English than the other two)

Donnie Yen is like the only male actor I can think of from the Chinese/HK/Taiwan market that was picked to star in a Hollywood blockbuster.

For Avengers, they also went with Asian female (Claudia Kim) rather than Asian male.

I'm not sure what to think because technically picking a female would help balance the genders of these casts more, but the frequency of "Asian female" over "Asian male" is somewhat suspicious. (It's probably not a coincidence that Donnie Yen was picked for a movie where the main is a female...)

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Not that I disagree with her or anything, but I have to point out this:



Ermmm, business is build on money?

And it's been proven that minority led movies can make money. Let's be honest. It's about maintaining the status quo. Maybe not in a conscious, intentional "No minorities allowed" sort of way, but in the type of way where keeping them out is "financially" justified, despite evidence of the contrary

 

[DeathyBoy]

They wanted to make money off the film so got a famous actor to push sells. Don't see an issue, would they prefer the film was never made?

Dampn's name doesn't guarantee box office, as this weekend will prove.

 

[BronsonLee]

Anything to maintain the status quo. Ain't it amazing the amount of people defending the white savior/hero/protagonist trope or try to deny that this isn't what this is like they do with The Last Samurai.

Did you even watch that movie

 

[andythinkpad]

Well my mistake, then this is a case of Hollywood being Hollywood. In that case wtf were they even thinking? There isn't even a forced explanation for why this white guy is in China in 1000 AD.

This is actually very ignorant view. China has a lot of minorities who don't look like "classical Han". A lot of dynasties particularly the Tang, the Yuan and the Qing has a lot of non Han looking people stay in the capitals. You can google Uyghurs they don't look like Chinese. I am not sure I think they are Turks?

 

[Fixed2BeBroken]

This is really true? I mean, it would be great to look at the facts, but thinking about it casually I just don't feel this is true. We can point to Jackie Chan and Jet Li, sure, but those are two actors total. The majority of bankable Asian actors in Japan/Korea/China/Taiwan are not going to be competing with Asian American actors in Hollywood films because they have a poor command of English, Hence it seems to me that the biggest hurdle is still that there are very few films written to allow Asian Americans to have the opportunity of competing for leading roles in the first place. Wouldn't you agree?

it kinda is true though. It's not just Jackie chan and Jet li.

Chow yun fat
donnie yen
Rain
Byung-hun lee
Ken Watanabe
Benedict Wong (british, but point still stands)

and as you said
Jackie Chan
Jet li

Small list, but small amount of roles.


Now, asian americans getting major roles in hollywood...how many?

Ki Hong Lee
John Cho

yea........................................................................UH HUH


Asian American actresses, while having the same problem, do not have as hard of a problem due to the asian fetish and golden flower tropes or the fact hollywood likes to put asian chicks with the white guy.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

I thought Leehom was sort of keeping low after he got married?

What's interesting to me is that there are quite a number of Chinese actors that can speak English well (to add Nicholas Tse to your list), but in the major blockbusters, it's always Chinese actresses who get picked up for a role even if they don't speak English half as well as those listed Chinese actors do.

Fan Bingbing for IM3 and for Xmen (she can barely even speak Cantonese, much less say English)
Angelababy for Independence Day
Li Bingbing for Transformers (to her credit, I think she speaks better English than the other two)

Donnie Yen is like the only male actor I can think of from the Chinese/HK/Taiwan market that was picked to star in a Hollywood blockbuster.

For Avengers, they also went with Asian female (Claudia Kim) rather than Asian male.

I'm not sure what to think because technically picking a female would help balance the genders of these casts more, but the frequency of "Asian female" over "Asian male" is somewhat suspicious. (It's probably not a coincidence that Donnie Yen was picked for a movie where the main is a female...)

Regarding Donnie Yen. That also might have to do with how he acts at the set of movies. I remember in one movie, dont remember the name though, he was not the main actor and got pissed after accepting the jobs, then during the shooting got so pissed, that the actual main actor quit.

It seems he is really hard to work with.

 

[lightskintwin]

Did you even watch that movie

The Great Wall? I saw the trailer and am criticizing that. Are you denying that the trailer didn't perpetuate the White Savior trope?

 

[cartographer]

Are we going to pretend that Sam Worthington was considered for the lead role in Avatar because he is bankable? Did John Boyega and Daisy Ridley get the lead roles in TFA because they were bankable stars? How bankable was Henry Cavill before he got the Superman role? Opportunities are given to relatively unknown white men and women every year for leading roles in blockbusters and franchise movies. Black men are starting to see more of that too. Why not Asian Americans?

Preach. This is such a blatant double standard when discussing these things. Unknowns or relative unknowns are handed big roles all the time, and it's usually white actors and actresses that benefit.

 

[BronsonLee]

The Great Wall? I saw the trailer and am criticizing that. Are you denying that the trailer didn't perpetuate the White Savior trope?

No we're talking Last Samurai since you brought it up

 

[kswiston]

The Great Wall? I saw the trailer and am criticizing that. Are you denying that the trailer didn't perpetuate the White Savior trope?

I think he means The Last Samurai

 

[Rooth]

This would be completely true in a purely Western production, but that's not quite what's going on here. The Great Wall looks a lot more like a typical Chinese blockbuster film, albeit one with a lot of Hollywood creative input. And a Chinese blockbuster having this kind of casting choice isn't out of the ordinary. What is out of the ordinary is that China seems to need a white guy who's foreign to the situation to deal with a threat that they spent centuries preparing for. But that has more to do with the film looking horrible for other reasons.

I don't understand what your point is.

The Great Wall is in every sense a Hollywood production. Look at its IMDB. Above the line, below the line... make-up, camera, sound, electric. The crew is overwhelmingly American. I'd imagine the few Chinese in each department were needed mainly to act as translators.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2034800/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

It has Chinese elements as window dressing but that's it. The CEO of Legendary is an American. The film was originally being developed for Ed Zwick. Zhang Yimou took the reigns when he dropped out due to funding. Its not the same as like Chris Nolan developing Inception for WB. Zhang is basically a hired hand.

 

[lightskintwin]

No we're talking Last Samurai since you brought it up

Did you not read my post in this thread where I addressed it.

I can't believe people defend The Last Samurai. For the record, I love The Last Samurai; I cried at the end of it. That still doesn't mean centering the story around a White male protagonist isn't deeply problematic and continuing a racist tradition of Hollywood. It was being criticized when it came out. I used to follow David Poland's reviews all the time and when this was released he summed it up perfectly.

The Last Samurai is a movie that pretends to be anti-imperialist while its internal meaning, telling the story of a white man who comes to be as good or better than those in a culture that is completely new to him, could not be more imperialistic. The road is littered with beautiful shots and good intentions, but in the end, that's the story of this movie.

But here’s what really got me – Zwick and Cruise were on Oprah and I saw them on Oprah After The Show. I don’t really watch Oprah, but I like Oprah After The Show because it usually has a more relaxed feel and they operate more in real time than in TV time. So Zwick explains what the movie is about… “This country tends not to know a lot about other cultures… we tend not to care… and we tend to pay some serious consequences for that not knowing.” He then goes on to say of the film, “It’s about authenticity and accountability… about taking accountability for your life. Owning your life.”

That is not the lesson of the samurai, especially at the time of this story. The samurai were not about the western notion of self. The tragedy of the samurai was that they believed in a higher plane of responsibility. They believed in honor above self. That belief led to their extinction.

In movie language, Zwick's twisted view is all well and good. At the movies, everything is about us. We are the audience. But it is a bastardization of the Japanese culture that I truly believe Zwick honestly meant to be exploring.

That split, between good intentions and reality, is what makes Zwick’s work dangerous. He gets the significance of the situation, but the question he is compelled to ask as a result is “How is this about me?”

Well, it’s not always about you, Ed. And you are infecting a large group of people whose intentions are as well held as your own with this disease of self-involvement. Nathan Algren is the character with whom the audience identifies and his journey of rebirth and re-found passion is lovely. But not to put too fine a point on it… so what? An entire culture has been run over, part of it destroyed and the person I am concerned about is the one white guy in the room who has a dazzling smile?

It's no coincidence Ed Zwick is one of the scriptwriters and originally intended to direct The Great Wall.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Daniel Wu looks like he would have been a good fit for Damon's character in this. Well his acting aint that good at all but other than that...he is doing a good enough job on Into The Badlands.

 

[andythinkpad]

They get passed over for Chinese actors who are bankable in Asia.

This is really true? I mean, it would be great to look at the facts, but thinking about it casually I just don't feel this is true. We can point to Jackie Chan and Jet Li, sure, but those are two actors total. The majority of bankable Asian actors in Japan/Korea/China/Taiwan are not going to be competing with Asian American actors in Hollywood films because they have a poor command of English, Hence it seems to me that the biggest hurdle is still that there are very few films written to allow Asian Americans to have the opportunity of competing for leading roles in the first place. Wouldn't you agree?

Let me explain the movie business of the greater Chinese diaspora (China/HK/TW) to you. If you don't speak fluent Chinese; if you don't understand how to do movie junket with the Chinese gossip rags with the teasing-my-affair-but-not-really acrobat; if you have political views that's not inline with the Chinese mainstream opinion and let it be known, you are not going to be casted as a lead in the Chinese movies.

Of all these factors, not able to talk to the endless media interviews to promote the movie and sound like a Chinese is actually the biggest achilles heel for Asian American actors.

 

[Nesotenso]

I think this movie will do well in China but not so much internationally, doesn't matter who was cast with the top billing.

 

[Rooth]

I thought Leehom was sort of keeping low after he got married?

What's interesting to me is that there are quite a number of Chinese actors that can speak English well (to add Nicholas Tse to your list), but in the major blockbusters, it's always Chinese actresses who get picked up for a role even if they don't speak English half as well as those listed Chinese actors do.

Fan Bingbing for IM3 and for Xmen (she can barely even speak Cantonese, much less say English)
Angelababy for Independence Day
Li Bingbing for Transformers (to her credit, I think she speaks better English than the other two)

Donnie Yen is like the only male actor I can think of from the Chinese/HK/Taiwan market that was picked to star in a Hollywood blockbuster.

For Avengers, they also went with Asian female (Claudia Kim) rather than Asian male.

I'm not sure what to think because technically picking a female would help balance the genders of these casts more, but the frequency of "Asian female" over "Asian male" is somewhat suspicious. (It's probably not a coincidence that Donnie Yen was picked for a movie where the main is a female...)

Yeah, check out this article from way back in 2014.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/uta-pursues-overseas-crossover-potential-724872

It talks about UTA picking up both Claudia Kim and Mark Chao for American projects. Yet I've never seen Mark Chao in a single film or show. Claudia Kim meanwhile has gone on to be in Avengers, Marco Polo and The Dark Tower.

 

[Luschient]

"If nothing else you'd get some mad respect (which is waaay more valuable than money)"

I know this has been quoted in this thread already but....fucking lol!

Yeah, Sony Pictures pays their employees with some of dat mad respect every payday.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

That review is bad film criticism. A story in which a character experiences an inner change as a result of witnessing the broader historical forces surrounding himself is about as standard as they come, and "so WHAT!? that historical trend was bigger!!!" slips into the great sin of criticism, which is criticizing a work for not being what you wanted it to be, rather than what it is.

 

[suzu]

This film has flop written all over it.
Edit: I should specify in the US.

 

[……forgetit]

This is actually very ignorant view. China has a lot of minorities who don't look like "classical Han". A lot of dynasties particularly the Tang, the Yuan and the Qing has a lot of non Han looking people stay in the capitals. You can google Uyghurs they don't look like Chinese. I am not sure I think they are Turks?

Okay, I looked through some photos of non-han Chinese and ethnic minorities there. I didn't see many classic white dudes, but I guess I could have missed those.

 

[duckroll]

Let me explain the movie business of the greater Chinese diaspora (China/HK/TW) to you. If you don't speak fluent Chinese; if you don't understand how to do movie junket with the Chinese gossip rags with the teasing-my-affair-but-not-really acrobat; if you have political views that's not inline with the Chinese mainstream opinion and let it be known, you are not going to be casted as a lead in the Chinese movies.

Of all these factors, not able to talk to the endless media interviews to promote the movie and sound like a Chinese is actually the biggest achilles heel for Asian American actors.

What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about Hollywood movies here.

 

[numble]

What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about Hollywood movies here.

There still is a point in there. Fan Bingbing promoted X-Men DOFP to the Chinese media, doing the talk shows, press junkets, etc. But that was not something Olivia Munn could do for X-Men Apocalypse.

 

[lightskintwin]

That review is bad film criticism. A story in which a character experiences an inner change as a result of witnessing the broader historical forces surrounding himself is about as standard as they come, and "so WHAT!? that historical trend was bigger!!!" slips into the great sin of criticism, which is criticizing a work for not being what you wanted it to be, rather than what it is.

LOL @ bad criticism. He admits it's a lovely film, and criticizes what makes it dangerous because it's an imperialist film that pretends to be anti imperialist.

The funny thing is white supremacy is so prevalent and normalized that you can't even see it when it's staring right in front of your face.

 

[suzu]

There still is a point in there. Fan Bingbing promoted X-Men DOFP to the Chinese media, doing the talk shows, press junkets, etc. But that was not something Olivia Munn could do for X-Men Apocalypse.

Does any of that actually really matter? I see foreign celebrities promoting all the time in China without speaking the language. And when I say foreign celebs I'm also including Asians from non-Chinese speaking countries.

 

[BronsonLee]

There's a reason John Cena learned Mandarin!

GET READY

 

[duckroll]

There still is a point in there. Fan Bingbing promoted X-Men DOFP to the Chinese media, doing the talk shows, press junkets, etc. But that was not something Olivia Munn could do for X-Men Apocalypse.

Fan Bingbing was not a character in the film, she was hired specifically to promote the film in China in a bit role. That is absolutely NOT the point here. We're talking about lead roles. Unless Matt Damon knows fluent Mandarin...

 

[cartographer]

There still is a point in there. Fan Bingbing promoted X-Men DOFP to the Chinese media, doing the talk shows, press junkets, etc. But that was not something Olivia Munn could do for X-Men Apocalypse.

I understand this comment in particular is about the Chinese film industry and Olivia Munn isn't Chinese (I believe her mother is Vietnamese). And she doesn't speak Chinese. But she is fluent in Japanese having grown up there.

I know this is a bit of a tangent.

 

[crisdecuba]

And it's been proven that minority led movies can make money. Let's be honest. It's about maintaining the status quo. Maybe not in a conscious, intentional "No minorities allowed" sort of way, but in the type of way where keeping them out is "financially" justified, despite evidence of the contrary

I'm aligned with what Constance lays out. I disagree with you that it's because of maintaining the status quo for its own sake. It's still about money. Minority led movies can make money, yes. But there is still less financial risk if you go with a bankable white lead. So as that changes over time, in part due to voices like hers, the money situation will change, the risk situation will change, and we will see more and more POC as leads in Hollywood movies. It's all about the money.

 

[DeathyBoy]

There's a reason John Cena learned Mandarin!

GET READY

WWE Studios wants dat China box office

 

[andythinkpad]

What the hell are you talking about? I'm talking about Hollywood movies here.

Wait you are talking about Hpllywood movies? You meant to tell me you can't tell from your own eyes Hollywood only cast established Asian stars in leads in big budget movies?

 

[kswiston]

I'm aligned with what Constance lays out. I disagree with you that it's because of maintaining the status quo for its own sake. It's still about money. Minority led movies can make money, yes. But there is still less financial risk if you go with a bankable white lead. So as that changes over time, in part due to voices like hers, the money situation will change, the risk situation will change, and we will see more and more POC as leads in Hollywood movies. It's all about the money.

It's not as simple as you are laying out, since it's pretty clear that Hollywood actively tries to make white leading men, even beyond the point where it is obvious that they have no box office pull. Look at how many flops Chris Hemsworth, Armie Hammer, Chris Pine, etc are allowed to rack up because they happened to be in one popular thing (Armie can't even claim that).

If it was simply a matter of financial risk, all of those would have stopped getting lead roles outside of Star Trek or Thor years ago.

 

[AgentP]

Damon should have passed on this, it looks awful.

To those PC kiddies calling racism, just stop. People like are are going to get Trump elected. Hollywood is business, they do it for the $$. There is no conspiracy, all the Chinese actors people have listed would make the movie less money. Period.

 

[Foggy]

Damon should have passed on this, it looks awful.

To those PC kiddies calling racism, just stop. People like are are going to get Trump elected. Hollywood is business, they do it for the $$. There is no conspiracy, all the Chinese actors people have listed would make the movie less money. Period.

 

[lightskintwin]

I'm aligned with what Constance lays out. I disagree with you that it's because of maintaining the status quo for its own sake. It's still about money. Minority led movies can make money, yes. But there is still less financial risk if you go with a bankable white lead. So as that changes over time, in part due to voices like hers, the money situation will change, the risk situation will change, and we will see more and more POC as leads in Hollywood movies. It's all about the money.

Prove it. Show the data. For as many successes, there are far more bombs using that formula. It's simply a formula that's constantly repeated because that's how things have always been done and people are slow to change.

47 Ronin was an Asian fantasy action film budgeted at 175 million dollars and starred Keanu Reeves and was one of the biggest bombs of 2013.

 

[Vicetrailia]

When Hollywood is making a movie they're thinking about white money. It's about what is palatable to white people, despite the rapid changes in movie viewer demographics.

They're insular, and are so slow to change. If it was all about money we wouldn't have these criticisms.

 

[lightskintwin]

When Hollywood is making a movie they're thinking about white money. It's about what is palatable to white people, despite the rapid changes in movie viewer demographics.

They're insular, and are so slow to change. If it was all about money we wouldn't have these criticisms.

Agreed.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

It's not as simple as you are laying out, since it's pretty clear that Hollywood actively tries to make white leading men, even beyond the point where it is obvious that they have no box office pull. Look at how many flops Chris Hemsworth, Armie Hammer, Chris Pine, etc are allowed to rack up because they happened to be in one popular thing (Armie can't even claim that).

If it was simply a matter of financial risk, all of those would have stopped getting lead roles outside of Star Trek or Thor years ago.

Prove it. Show the data. For as many successes, there are far more bombs using that formula. It's simply a formula that's constantly repeated because that's how things have always been done and people are slow to change.

47 Ronin was an Asian fantasy action film budgeted at 175 million dollars and starred Keanu Reeves and was one of the biggest bombs of 2013.

You guys get it

 

[crisdecuba]

Prove it. Show the data. For as many successes, there are far more bombs using that formula. It's simply a formula that's constantly repeated because that's how things have always been done and people are slow to change.

47 Ronin was an Asian fantasy action film budgeted at 175 million dollars and starred Keanu Reeves and was one of the biggest bombs of 2013.

Whether its perceived risk or actual risk, all I'm saying is that the primary motivating factor in film industry decisions, and only thing that will change that on a larger scale, is money. I was wrong to say it's all about the money. I should have said it's primarily about the money.

 

[lightskintwin]

Whether its perceived risk or actual risk, all I'm saying is that the primary motivating factor in film industry decisions, and only thing that will change that on a larger scale, is money. I was wrong to say it's all about the money. I should have said it's primarily about the money.

Ok, I'll agree that it is a "perceived" risk whether it's actually true or not.

 

[crisdecuba]

You guys get it

None of us is bringing actual data to this though. Just examples. Can't really claim to have come to any data driven conclusions here.

And actually, such an analysis would be great toward making the case that "hey, idiots! Your strategy of banking on white leads is not viable anymore!" Anyone know if such a study exists?

 

[BronsonLee]

47 Ronin would be more comparable to Great Wall with a few differences

First time director who apparently got in way over his head and went over budget
Keanu wasn't the star at first, reshoots made him so

 

[lightskintwin]

None of us is bringing actual data to this though. Just examples. Can't really claim to have come to any data driven conclusions here.

You're the one making the claim though. The reality is the film's making the most money today have more to do with the brand's attached to them than the actual box office power of the lead actors. Like if Black panther makes a shitload of money, that's not going to automatically mean Chadwick Boseman is this box office star that can lead any movie, carry it off of his name alone, and make tons of money.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Damon should have passed on this, it looks awful.

To those PC kiddies calling racism, just stop. People like are are going to get Trump elected. Hollywood is business, they do it for the $$. There is no conspiracy, all the Chinese actors people have listed would make the movie less money. Period.

 

[crisdecuba]

You're the one making the claim though. The reality is the film's making the most money today have more to do with the brand's than the actual box office power of the lead actors.

Not sure I understand. All of us are making claims about what the reality is, no?

 

[crisdecuba]

You're the one making the claim though. The reality is the film's making the most money today have more to do with the brand's attached to them than the actual box office power of the lead actors. Like if Black panther makes a shitload of money, that's not going to automatically mean Chadwick Boseman is this box office star that can lead any movie, carry it off of his name alone, and make tons of money.

I agree with you that having a good brand is the main driving factor for box office performance.

 

[lightskintwin]

Not sure I understand. All of us are making claims about what the reality is, no?

i can make a list of all the films that failed or bombed at the box office in the last 2 years that starred big name white leading actors if you'd like.

 

[ishibear]

Constance Wu is so awesome. I love seeing more people speak out against these pathetic excuses. So much truth in what she says.

 

[B-Dex]

Constance Wu was great in East Siders.

 

[kswiston]

None of us is bringing actual data to this though. Just examples. Can't really claim to have come to any data driven conclusions here.

And actually, such an analysis would be great toward making the case that "hey, idiots! Your strategy of banking on white leads is not viable anymore!" Anyone know if such a study exists?

If we are strictly talking about $150-250M Hollywood blockbusters, Star Power is pretty close to irrelevant. It obviously helps to have leads who are good in their roles, but they don't have to have any prior audience cache for that.

If we are talking about mid-budget films (especially comedies), than sure, the actors matter more. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Central Intelligence wouldn't have made a good deal less money if you replaced Kevin Hart and Dwayne Johnson with Nick Cannon and Jason Momoa.