The Proud Family was black as fuck, what you talkin about
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Constance Wu says Matt Damon's Great Wall perpetuates 'racist myth'
- Thread starter UnemployedVillain
- Start date
- Status
What Asian American is considered bankable? A top Korean or Japanese actor would make more sense for wide appeal.
UnemployedVillain
Member
lightskintwin
Banned
Honestly the whole Asian American thing is an entirely different discussion. One I've been thinking about creating a thread about.
BronsonLee
Member
It's worth pointing out that the last time something similar happened it was called 47 Ronin
And that was a fucking DISASTER
And that was a fucking DISASTER
……forgetit
Member
Well anyone else besides writers? They have very little control over the final movie and have nothing really to do with casting. Also all I can really say is that it sucks and all we can really do is put pressure on to cast minority actors from now on.
True, though ironically Keanu Reeves is
a very small part
Are we going to pretend that Sam Worthington was considered for the lead role in Avatar because he is bankable? Did John Boyega and Daisy Ridley get the lead roles in TFA because they were bankable stars? How bankable was Henry Cavill before he got the Superman role? Opportunities are given to relatively unknown white men and women every year for leading roles in blockbusters and franchise movies. Black men are starting to see more of that too. Why not Asian Americans?
UnemployedVillain
Member
Don't forget Taylor Kitsch and John Carter!
lightskintwin
Banned
Exactly.
Anyone could've been in Sam Worthington's role in Avatar. It wasn't race specific and it sure wasn't talent specific.
They get passed over for Chinese actors who are bankable in Asia.
If we are going to focus on nationality instead of race, white American actors get passed over for White British Commonwealth actors all of the time too. Ditto for Black actors these days unless it's something made specifically for the American domestic audience.
However, in both of those cases, I think you can get a more experienced British actor cheaper than the equivalent American one.
If Chinese companies are hiring American writers for it, it is their decision. It would still widely be considered a Chinese product though. They are clearly trying to get the international flavor and market, so it would be in your best interest to hire people who make movies that appeal international.
Of course, this has disaster written all over it. It has the smell of being a putrid turd from a mile away, where it has not taken one note on what makes movies appeal to the international market.
She is not wrong with her statement either, but this is the wrong hill to go die on for the cause.
He got that role since Cameron liked him. That's it.
Which in turn got him Clash of the Titans and Terminator. Because Cameron's word is God's in Hollywood.
I think it's a very short sighted approach in Hollywood to not be developing their own Asian American actors. It makes sense they would want someone who is bankable in China, but putting the work into developing their own mean you wouldn't have to deal with the pandering shit anymore. They could just cast Sung Kang as a lead and not have to worry at all about writing a part to pander.
Read the links people give you:
The idea was conceived by Legendary's CEO, Thomas Tull, and this all happened before Wanda bought Legendary.
This is really true? I mean, it would be great to look at the facts, but thinking about it casually I just don't feel this is true. We can point to Jackie Chan and Jet Li, sure, but those are two actors total. The majority of bankable Asian actors in Japan/Korea/China/Taiwan are not going to be competing with Asian American actors in Hollywood films because they have a poor command of English, Hence it seems to me that the biggest hurdle is still that there are very few films written to allow Asian Americans to have the opportunity of competing for leading roles in the first place. Wouldn't you agree?
BronsonLee
Member
Jay Chou has stolen roles from every Asian in history, the little bastard
lightskintwin
Banned
She's pointing out a symptom to a larger problem.
I really really hate this argument, always comes up when people are understandably upset about the race of a lead
lightskintwin
Banned
Individually, there's nothing wrong with The Great Wall, but in the context of the history and trend of Special White Person, and White Savior tropes in media it does become problematic? Can you at least admit that?
Legendary was not acquired by Wanda until this year. This has been in the can before the Wanda purchase:
http://www.latimes.com/entertainmen...-wall-film-legendary-film-20150702-story.html
……forgetit
Member
Well my mistake, then this is a case of Hollywood being Hollywood. In that case wtf were they even thinking? There isn't even a forced explanation for why this white guy is in China in 1000 AD.
To be fair, it will probably be advertised differently in China.
The western advertising could use less Matt Damon though. That was my disappointment with the first trailer.
MisterR
Member
The star of Avatar was James Cameron. Star Wars and Superman stars are the IP. Apples and oranges to a big budget film with no star director or huge franchise to fall back on. Actually, those films would be a lot more likely to be able to have a nice name Asian as lead.
It tells me James Cameron can make a hit and Star Wars and Superman are hot properties.
Nah, I get what you mean. Tron, John Carter, Last Airbender...baffling casting.
I do wonder if there's much difference in appeal between Asian American actors and Asian actors. Personally, there are so many talented asian actors who are wasted in Hollywood films. Lee Byung-hun in GI Joe, Terminator or Asano Tatanobu in Thor, Battleship.
I suppose that, if you look at it from a script writing perspective, you are right that they don't write many roles specifically for Asian American actors. I was thinking more of the roles that go to people like Donnie Yen, Ken Watanabe, Claudia Kim, etc, where the characters aren't meant to be American.
Hollywood has no problem casting Christian Bale as Egyptian or Jake Gyllenhaal as Persian, but for non-American Asian roles they are more likely to go with established Asian actors.
Probably why a number of Asian American actors are forced to go look for work in South Korea or Japan.
I understand the issue but films are made to make money. If they don't have a famous actor the film is not going to make money in the west. You have 3 options: 1. Really low budget, 2. Add a famous actor to get the budget to make the film you want, 3. Don't make the film.
You can only pick one. The people funding this project wants money, it's a business.
lightskintwin
Banned
Everybody understands that, I don't know why it gets repeated ad nauseum. If that formula continues to perpetuate a racist myth riddle with racist imagery of people of color being relegated to the background so their stories can be told through white protagonists or worse yet, be helped from white saviors, should it be exempt from criticism simply because it makes money and it's a business?
You may be right, but the trailer did a poor job of conveying this. If anything, it portrayed the whole movie centering around his character hence the criticism. If Matt Damon was a supporting character, or a lead amongst other Chinese leads than most people wouldn't have said anything, and may even been excited over it.
However looking at this poster, people's suspicions will probably be proven correct.
I'm waiting for someone to photoshop Donald Trump into that picture.
Also, this is the equivalent of Leonardo DiCaprio being in 'Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon' IMO.
This was originally going to go to Cavill. And then they had another actor which a studio preempted. Then they went to Damon.
I am not sure where we get this idea that Damon is a bankable movie star. In the past decade, he has had flops for his starring roles except for the Martian last year. Part of the reason he is doing Bourne films again is since he flopped with the Green Zone, Adjustment Bureau and Elysium.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Chloe Bennet had to change her name from Wang in order to get work because casting agents wouldn't give her the time of day, she changes it and gets hired in her first audition after doing so.
Would you prefer that none of these types of films get made instead. I would pre for this type of film over no film
No its not. CTHD is based on classic novels. This is a rediculous fantasy CGI fest
Damon was first, but it didn't work with his schedule until after he finished Bourne. At that point the film still didn't have a lead, so he picked it up again.
This would be completely true in a purely Western production, but that's not quite what's going on here. The Great Wall looks a lot more like a typical Chinese blockbuster film, albeit one with a lot of Hollywood creative input. And a Chinese blockbuster having this kind of casting choice isn't out of the ordinary. What is out of the ordinary is that China seems to need a white guy who's foreign to the situation to deal with a threat that they spent centuries preparing for. But that has more to do with the film looking horrible for other reasons.
To be fair, Asian Americans aren't bankable largely due to the fact that they don't get the kind of plum roles to prove themselves. It's a little better for Asian women, but it's especially bad for Asian men because they're given access to an entire swath of roles that non-Asians would be considered for (most notably in romantic roles).
There's bankable Asian Americans / Canadians in Asia. But I those guys never get approached by Hollywood for some reason. Leehom Wang, Mark Chao, Daniel Wu are all big leading actors fluent in English. Tony Leung's English is pretty good as well being raised in Hong Kong.
Well, Leehom was in that shitty Michael Mann movie...
Maybe it's the best big name they could get within the budget. The Rock requires $20m paycheck
UnemployedVillain
Member
You literally have it backwards. This is an American production with some Chinese input, not the other way around. The decision to have a white guy be the lead was pure Hollywood as usual
lightskintwin
Banned
I think the world has enough white savior/hero/main protagonist crap that we'll be ok without another one.
I know what the make up of the production is. But it still looks like a Chinese film given a Hollywood twist.
The guy said that the one disney show had a protagonist which was considerably lighter than her siblings, and most black americans.
Its a fair point.
UnemployedVillain
Member
What is with you choosing to ignore facts in place of what you want to think? This is the second time in this thread
Who's ignoring facts? I'm just pointing out that this film looks and feels like a lot of the blockbusters coming out of China for the last few years.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
I think this is a very interesting discussion because there are many facets and feelings to it. I don't have a clear position on it. I'm just fascinated by it, as I can see the for and against. I really like movies like The Last Samurai.
I think the film contains a level of melodramatic emotional-circle jerk in the form of white guilt and self-hatred. Angrel is a character who participated in total genocide of the native Americans, killing the barbarians. 5 minutes into the film, in his drunkenness and contempt you already capture the essence of his character; the wrong guys won that fight.
Already there it has the potential to be a great story.
Already there you got a character who is tormented and who the audiences feel sorry for.
US Exceptionalism of the time certainly saw the Japanese as inferior. Perhaps not far from the Japaneses own racial superiority of other races. The fact of the matter is that the story is one of isolationism and cultural clashes.
The entire setup for the character is a stranger in a strange land whose role there is to show the primitive secluded Japanese some first rate American Warfare.
If you take out the white guy, or remove the perspective from his character, it's a different film. And that is essentially my problem with attacking the story itself. From a plot deviced perspective, with the historical context of which it carries its backbone, it actually works with the trope it has.
It's a weird yard stick to argue you want a different film. Then the argument should be not on attacking the story and the framing of the story; but Hollywood favorism in general, and Hollywoods monopoly on White Stars who are the de-facto standard for carrying mega blockbusters.
There is a great study of The Last Samurai that tries to examine how Japanese Audiences viewed the Last Samurai as opposed to American audiences. Carried out by an associate professor of University of Hawaii;
Please, this is just a tiny bit. It's a massive read. It's gonna take a long time to get through but read it; https://www.researchgate.net/public...abroad_Japanese_reactions_to_The_Last_Samurai
// I think white audiences want film that want films that play on emotional strings they can relate to. An effective Hollywood blockbuster is like a well produced popsong that hits all the spots to be a smash hit. It's pop gum- It's a series of tropes and techniques proven to be effective.
When you look at the amount of films that doesn't get made because nobody wants to make a film that doesn't earn money. Peoples career hang in the balance all the time, and Hollywood has no problem shitting you out the backdoor. It's basically dogma that you're only about as good as your last film.
So when a major Hollywood talent attaches himself to a project, suddenly people dare take a chance. A Producers career might hang in the balance and other people will get the axe, but he is gonna take a chance because the star is attached.
Remember that interview with the producer of Dredd from a while ago? He breaked it down. He explained that no matter how the internet petition or go in a frenzy for Dredd 2, it will never happen, because the first one didn't break even. It's all about money. And these films are made by massive crews of people- The vast majority of whom are not seeing anything of that "fuck you" money if the film makes it big. That is only for the stars and a few execs and investors.
When you say (as some have in this thread) that "Hollywood doesn't care" if it has a white supremacist flop, you're not really thinking it through. They absolutely care, but not for the good graces of living up to the standards of minorities being well represented in the global sphere of influence.
Hollywood is controlled and vetted by a white elite, like the fashion industry and the music industry. The biggest stars, trends and trendmakers are monopolized by the white, and I don't think the solution comes from within.
What I think instead, is that other cultures need to emerge with their own scenes that can compete. "A Hollywood blockbuster" is the definition of a international film success. That's because Hollywood makes the rules, but since Hollywood is white and makes content that panders to white audiences, it is not surprising given its 100 year track record that is interested in examining foreign cultures. It has always stolen via its exceptionalism. It's who it is.
Salty Europeans still blame Hollywood for existing in America because post-WW1 European filmmakers sold out.
That is why pretentious art films reign supreme in festivals in Cannes, Venice, Berlin, and the commercial blockbusters are in Hollywood. Together both scenes hold a strong monopoly.
That is the problem. Not the framing of the Last Samurai.
The Last Samurai could have been a great film from Watanabes perspective. It could have been about Katsumotos failure to unify the remaining samurai clans which for historical accuracy is what caused the Samurai their doom. There are many ways to attack it, but it would have been a completely different film, and thus the argument changes completely.
You cannot blame white people or chinese people, or any other people for wanting to see film that relates to them. This is the systemic racism of which we live in. We partake in it every day in most of the things we do. But systemic racism doesn't make The Last Samurai a bad film or less of a film. In or out of a vacuum it's a strong and effective narrative, and despite the historical inaccuracies (as virtually all period pieces have) I think the criticism on that film is misguided because it implies that there is something unjust or tainted by other cultures examining from outside looking in.
I think the film contains a level of melodramatic emotional-circle jerk in the form of white guilt and self-hatred. Angrel is a character who participated in total genocide of the native Americans, killing the barbarians. 5 minutes into the film, in his drunkenness and contempt you already capture the essence of his character; the wrong guys won that fight.
Already there it has the potential to be a great story.
Already there you got a character who is tormented and who the audiences feel sorry for.
US Exceptionalism of the time certainly saw the Japanese as inferior. Perhaps not far from the Japaneses own racial superiority of other races. The fact of the matter is that the story is one of isolationism and cultural clashes.
The entire setup for the character is a stranger in a strange land whose role there is to show the primitive secluded Japanese some first rate American Warfare.
If you take out the white guy, or remove the perspective from his character, it's a different film. And that is essentially my problem with attacking the story itself. From a plot deviced perspective, with the historical context of which it carries its backbone, it actually works with the trope it has.
It's a weird yard stick to argue you want a different film. Then the argument should be not on attacking the story and the framing of the story; but Hollywood favorism in general, and Hollywoods monopoly on White Stars who are the de-facto standard for carrying mega blockbusters.
There is a great study of The Last Samurai that tries to examine how Japanese Audiences viewed the Last Samurai as opposed to American audiences. Carried out by an associate professor of University of Hawaii;
Please, this is just a tiny bit. It's a massive read. It's gonna take a long time to get through but read it; https://www.researchgate.net/public...abroad_Japanese_reactions_to_The_Last_Samurai
// I think white audiences want film that want films that play on emotional strings they can relate to. An effective Hollywood blockbuster is like a well produced popsong that hits all the spots to be a smash hit. It's pop gum- It's a series of tropes and techniques proven to be effective.
When you look at the amount of films that doesn't get made because nobody wants to make a film that doesn't earn money. Peoples career hang in the balance all the time, and Hollywood has no problem shitting you out the backdoor. It's basically dogma that you're only about as good as your last film.
So when a major Hollywood talent attaches himself to a project, suddenly people dare take a chance. A Producers career might hang in the balance and other people will get the axe, but he is gonna take a chance because the star is attached.
Remember that interview with the producer of Dredd from a while ago? He breaked it down. He explained that no matter how the internet petition or go in a frenzy for Dredd 2, it will never happen, because the first one didn't break even. It's all about money. And these films are made by massive crews of people- The vast majority of whom are not seeing anything of that "fuck you" money if the film makes it big. That is only for the stars and a few execs and investors.
When you say (as some have in this thread) that "Hollywood doesn't care" if it has a white supremacist flop, you're not really thinking it through. They absolutely care, but not for the good graces of living up to the standards of minorities being well represented in the global sphere of influence.
Hollywood is controlled and vetted by a white elite, like the fashion industry and the music industry. The biggest stars, trends and trendmakers are monopolized by the white, and I don't think the solution comes from within.
What I think instead, is that other cultures need to emerge with their own scenes that can compete. "A Hollywood blockbuster" is the definition of a international film success. That's because Hollywood makes the rules, but since Hollywood is white and makes content that panders to white audiences, it is not surprising given its 100 year track record that is interested in examining foreign cultures. It has always stolen via its exceptionalism. It's who it is.
Salty Europeans still blame Hollywood for existing in America because post-WW1 European filmmakers sold out.
That is why pretentious art films reign supreme in festivals in Cannes, Venice, Berlin, and the commercial blockbusters are in Hollywood. Together both scenes hold a strong monopoly.
That is the problem. Not the framing of the Last Samurai.
The Last Samurai could have been a great film from Watanabes perspective. It could have been about Katsumotos failure to unify the remaining samurai clans which for historical accuracy is what caused the Samurai their doom. There are many ways to attack it, but it would have been a completely different film, and thus the argument changes completely.
You cannot blame white people or chinese people, or any other people for wanting to see film that relates to them. This is the systemic racism of which we live in. We partake in it every day in most of the things we do. But systemic racism doesn't make The Last Samurai a bad film or less of a film. In or out of a vacuum it's a strong and effective narrative, and despite the historical inaccuracies (as virtually all period pieces have) I think the criticism on that film is misguided because it implies that there is something unjust or tainted by other cultures examining from outside looking in.
BronsonLee
Member
Yeah this isn't like Last Samurai at all
lightskintwin
Banned
Anything to maintain the status quo. Ain't it amazing the amount of people defending the white savior/hero/protagonist trope or try to deny that this isn't what this is like they do with The Last Samurai.
- Status