freeofgreed
Member
Dude I responded to that like 2 pages ago (which you seemingly ignored). This discussion is not going to go anywhere if you keep asking the same shit over and over.
Cosplayer being labeled Racist for her blackface Michonne From The Walking Dead'
- Thread starter clem84
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Dude I responded to that like 2 pages ago (which you seemingly ignored). This discussion is not going to go anywhere if you keep asking the same shit over and over.
……forgetit
Member
I should have never used "never" but hey, shit hits close to home man. There's very few things that are "never acceptable." I didn't mean literally never, I mainly meant it's not okay to dress as a different race for most cases. It's not a big deal though, semantics and shit.
It's been like that most of the thread.
The only think I am adamantly against here is the attitude that white people should never ever ever ever give themselves s black appearance. It is far too restrictive of an attitude. I understand being sensitive to the issue, but I feel that attitude goes beyond sensitive. It's outright telling people you don't give a damn what they are trying to do and that it is automatically racist or offensive.
pants
Member
It's not a bad thing, just very different
Appropriated from 'muricah
Yeah I know, hence why I don't bring it up often, to me its not a bad word though.
Also that festival literally originates from Minstrel shows so fuck that shit.
Dice//
Banned
This is suppose to be Sazh? Omg really? I never would've guessed. Dude really should took a tar bath before putting on that costume cause it's quite terrible.
No need to be sassy.
I just found it interesting; I don't really have a dog in this fight since I'm white and I don't feel like my opinion would hold nearly as much water as someone else's. But it's an interesting discussion to have nonetheless.
But as far as labelling and slamming OPs example as "black face" then, with historical examples in mind, it could be MUCH worse and, even if tacky or in poor taste, doesn't seem to be out to offend.
White people tend to cosplay tons of Japanese characters, but because our skin colour is largely the same it's not subject to the same scrutiny.
When I think "bad taste", Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's always comes to mind who's both caricaturized and played up as an annoying and meddling character.
mentallyinept
Banned
Since you are referencing my post... care to elaborate?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I'm aware people can do that. I never said they couldn't. I didn't tell anyone "You can't be offended at things without a reason."
What I said was "You can be offended, but other people don't have to take that offense seriously if they think your reasoning for being offended is unreasonable, misguided, or illogical."
You obviously think they're comparable though, when they're not. I explained to you why it's not as offensive; black and latin people have not faced the same oppression throughout history; "Latin actors not getting roles" isn't the same as "let's collectively mock every single black out there!", especially at the time blackface originated in America.
……forgetit
Member
You know that got started because it was believed that black people weren't humans and instead had racoon's blood right?
pants
Member
Doesnt work that way here, it's literally something we took and made good. But I dont want to make this the subject of this thread, just wanted to point out why I dont come into the thread with the mindset that any 'blackface' is bad. That being said blackface seems to mean different things to different people in this thread.
I'm asking if people find that offensive now. There are plenty of modern examples of actors not playing their actual race. My whole point is that we don't go "He is wearing a race as a costume. That's offensive and racist." People typically talk about the way the portrayal was handed with a more granular attitude instead of this black and white, right and wrong attitude in this thread.
Speedy Gonzales? Latin actors were stereotyped too, but not to the same degree obviously. As a black guy, I don't like making different rules for black people.
Plus, I'd say darkening white actors to not hire Latin people is pretty fucked up on its own.
freeofgreed
Member
No need to be sassy.
I just found it interesting; I don't really have a dog in this fight since I'm white and I don't feel like my opinion would hold nearly as much water as someone else's. But it's an interesting discussion to have nonetheless.
But as far as labelling and slamming OPs example as "black face" then, with historical examples in mind, it could be MUCH worse and, even if tacky or in poor taste, doesn't seem to be out to offend.
White people tend to cosplay tons of Japanese characters, but because our skin colour is largely the same it's not subject to the same scrutiny.
When I think "bad taste", Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's always comes to mind who's both caricaturized and played up as an annoying and meddling character.
Lol sorry I actually wasn't trying to be sassy, I just saw what you posted and decide to google it then saw that picture and used it to demonstrate something completely different, so sorry about that.
And yes, I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that this is the worst example of black face because it surely could've been worse, however the problem is all the people who are saying that because this example isn't as extreme as it could be, all the people who are "offended" by it are just being babies. It's like shooting someone in the leg and then telling them to stop whining about it because you could've shot them in the head.
How did you make it good? It'd be as if in America hung a black effigy for MLK day. To celebrate, you know.
You took a ton of racist stuff and made it into a carnival. That doesn't mean it's now all good.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
So that's what you find offensive? The offense? Okay.
Where did I ever say I was offended? I said I am against it.
Ok? This is what DY meant by circular logic. You're repeating what I just addressed. Yeah, there's Mexican stereotypes, but not to the degree I'm talking about. Black people should have different rules, because of their history. Also calling them "rules" is stupid. They just have more of a reason to be upset when someone paints their skin black when you consider the history of said act.
freeofgreed
Member
My response already answered that...
Also you might want to use some more recent examples other then a movie that is nearly 50 years old to illustrate your point. Because I cant think of any modern examples were a white actor played a minority and people didn't flipped thier shit. Remember Benedict Cumberbach playing Kahn in Star Trek? People were livid about that.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Fair enough..
pants
Member
Why did the word 'faggot' become offensive? It didnt start that way. Things change over time and evolve differently in regions mostly isolated from each other culturally. Even in places with cultural similarities : for example a fag (England) is a way of asking for a cigarette as recently as 2 decades ago.
It's weird that you cant see the opposite of 'faggot' being possible
I'm not repeating myself. I stated something new that I don't like my own race having special rules. Many other races have been oppressed and it is stupid to act like it's only black people that deserve sensitivity about it.
I wasn't trying to find examples where the public were upset by it.
Modern examples of blackface are usually students having a 'black people night' and all turning up with massive chains, grills and some black face paint. Or when people dress up for halloween as the latest black kid that has been shot.
When you compare photos of that shit to this girls cosplay, its completely different.
Not going to call this girl racist but i can certainly see why black cosplayers could get pissed off seeing as they have a very limited pool of characters and don't appreciate a white person playing one
When you compare photos of that shit to this girls cosplay, its completely different.
Not going to call this girl racist but i can certainly see why black cosplayers could get pissed off seeing as they have a very limited pool of characters and don't appreciate a white person playing one
freeofgreed
Member
Then I'm confused as to what your point is then?
You don't need to fucking paint your face black to do a faithful recreation of a fictional black character JESUS Cosplayers
Why is our pool limited again
Why is our pool limited again
FantasticMrFoxdie
Mumber
I mean, whatever dude. You're completely underestimating the history and pervasiveness of racism towards black people today.
I've been noticing a common and sad trend in threads like these where groups of posters dismiss other peoples feelings just because they don't find something offensive therefore they label others as being too PC and sensitive.
Is it really that hard to just listen to how others feel? I'm not saying you have to find this offensive but it's really odd how many rush to dismiss others just because their stance differs. Why can't you just listen to why someone is offended? Try to understand the way they feel?
My stance on this is that I think she was honestly just trying to be faithful to the character and meant no harm however there's a history with blackface and if people are offended, learn from it and don't do it again. I think this is a case of where she needs to be educated as to why it's not a good idea and that she can portray the character without the makeup.
Is it really that hard to just listen to how others feel? I'm not saying you have to find this offensive but it's really odd how many rush to dismiss others just because their stance differs. Why can't you just listen to why someone is offended? Try to understand the way they feel?
My stance on this is that I think she was honestly just trying to be faithful to the character and meant no harm however there's a history with blackface and if people are offended, learn from it and don't do it again. I think this is a case of where she needs to be educated as to why it's not a good idea and that she can portray the character without the makeup.
black cosplayers don't only cosplay as black characters. that's the whole point, you don't need to change your 'race' to cosplay
frankie_baby
Member
Fag is a perfectly normal word for a cigarette today in the UK
Yeah if this was the 60s
SamuelSupreme
Banned
I think context is everything and as a black man I have no problem with this issue, but I can see why some other people might take offence to that. You have to weigh the pros and the cons and sometimes It's just best to avoid the controversy. In this case it sucks because she did a great job, it's just that in our society and with America's history in general. It's just in bad taste.
That's a totally different circumstance. The character of Tuco, as a Mexican of mostly Spanish descent, is a "sort-of white" character who was probably viewed much the actor Eli Wallach once was. Sort of white, but not as white as Clint Eastwood.
There is a long history of white people pretending to be Black, inherently different from Eli Wallach getting a fake tan. Other races haven't been mocked to the same degree by white performers.
freeofgreed
Member
I agree, but instead of not being sensitive towards any race, we have sensitivity towards them all?
it's common slang for a cigarette in the mid-10s too
Faggot started as a term for a bundle of wood. The two meanings evolved independently.
Coon came from America where it was a racist term borrowed AS a racist term. It's very different.
My point is that it is common in media for actors to not play their actual race. This doesn't raise much attention, like Eli Wallach playing Tuco. It's really only when they portray a black person that it starts to worry people. It's not entirely consistent with the history of early cinema. Many other minorities were locked out of jobs by white people playing characters with their race, not just black people. Other minorities were also stereotyped, but not as much. The main reason for this was because a lot of movies were also being made for a European audience and they couldn't get away with being nearly as offensive. I think any amount of stereotyping and taking jobs away from minorities is fucked up. So it seems odd to me to act like it's TOTALLY a different than blackface. One group got hurt worse, but they were all hurt to a significant degree.
First, I have seen very few examples of "blackface" or similar that looks convincing. When people such as the cosplayer in the OP, attempt to change their race they just end up looking like a person with paint smeared on their face. It either looks weird at best or offensive at worst.
Second, even today "whiteness" is still held as the standard of beauty and non-white characters are still grossly underrepresented in media. So until those issues are corrected, a white person darkening their skin in an attempt to portray a black character will tend to bring up ugly reminders of how black people and others have been and continue to be marginalized.
MWS Natural
Member
pants
Member
I dont think you're following what I'm saying, but again I brought this up to colour my opinions not for it to become the discussion itself
freeofgreed
Member
Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on this. Give me an example where a white actor played someone of a different race and weren't given shit for it. And please use something a bit more modern than TGTBATU, because we've already explained why that's not a good comparison.
What about Dos Equis's "The Most Interesting Man in the World"? That is a Jewish man playing somebody of Latin descent. Everybody seems to love that guy.
I never said why isn't it as bad. If anything, I asked why does the degree of badness matter so much if both are bad.
I'm double posting a lot, and it looks like the thread is slowing down more now. I'll come back later to see the responses. Back to studying.
You don't get it because you seem to think this is all about harmless cosplay and makeup when it isn't. I've said many times in this thread that trying to represent a character by resorting to a racist depiction is not appropriate or acceptable. This is not the same as trying to be Nightcrawler or Hulk and painting your skin, but to paint your skin to portray an actual skin tone of another human being is very much like alienating them. The two aforementioned characters aren't human/normal and known for their skin being what differentiates them from others, but Michonne's race does not, her skills and mystery surrounding her is what differentiates her from others.
There's no reason to paint your skin to represent someone from another race. And you look foolish for doing so.
Arjen
Member
Great post. Totally agree.
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