Narasumas
Member
Miku, I’m with everything you’re saying….I just can’t get behind the mock part. That’s all man. All good, I just feel the undue deaths and the families deserve better than being a meme.
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T8SC
Gold Member
Punished Miku
Banned
I hear you. Its not like I'm protesting at their funeral or anything. It rose to the level of being on the news.
I think they're victims. You can tell that if they believed they or their family was at risk, they would try to tell others to get vaccinated. The family is doing that now in the article. That means they're decent people and just literally still didn't believe the 2 years of info saying to get vaccinated.
How do you combat that kind of belief other than someone in your personal family dying? How does anyone break through to tell these people anything?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
If you'd read my preceding posts today you'd have understood that I was stressing the significance of base-line health in terms of predicting the likely outcome of Covid infection.
My "no" was simply a firm refusal to be drawn into an anti-vaccine debate on the side of a position I've never subscribed to. What's more I felt like you were trying to deflect away from the points I was trying to make (as above), hence my irritated reaction to you claiming that I was the one "moving the goalposts".
As I remarked to
purvispisgah
, at the time I felt it was a ploy or gambit on your part to score a rhetorical point and recentre the debate around a position you considered more readily defensible.With hindsight I see that perhaps we were "talking past" each other on distinctly different (if related) lines of argument.
The "somewhat" part is that I found your position to be overly absolutist. I do not believe in vaccine mandates and other coercive measures as I find them antithetical to my political beliefs, counter-productive in the extreme, and frankly unscientific.
I greatly value and believe in science, but am very aware of its utility as a political and economic tool. I feel like politics has hamstrung our response to Covid from the very beginning, and the course that's been chosen -or at least allowed to evolve- has fallen into an ugly compromise somewhere between scientific rationalism and socio-political opportunism.
Punished Miku
Banned
NY tried banning certain fat content, soda sizes and tax increases. The right loved it since they're very consistent and principled on this. They also were very supportive of Michelle Obama trying to reform school lunches, remember?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
When it comes down to it, I assume you mostly agree with the phrase "facts don't care about your feelings", wouldn't you? When you look at the bigger picture, misinformation is a bigger killer of people than rudeness on the internets.
Narasumas
Member
Bingo. Not just COVID, politics (as it is today) has hamstrung the USA at-large and has been affected our ability to do pretty much anything effectively like we used to.
FunkMiller
Banned
Thus far, I can confirm I have not killed anyone on the internet by being a rude prick. Only anecdotal evidence currently, but if you give me a couple of weeks, a small grant, and access to a data centre, I can have a peer reviewed paper ready to go in about a month
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I did read it, and like I said, you're going off on tangents that don't deal with the original point at hand.
I don't deal in points. I deal in clear communication and sticking to the point until it's resolved, then moving on to the next one.As I remarked to
I don't see how my position is absolutist, since it's a logical matter of fact formed within that syllogism (not a proper one, but good enough). I never said anything about mandates either. You're adding that baggage in yourself.
Don't let your feelings on politics cloud your interpretation of data.
Narasumas
Member
I agree with you totally here, but to me the rudeness of the internet is post-secondary and adds nothing to the issue at-hand except stoking further division.
It’s certainly not a solution.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
But now we have a new precedent being set in many states and countries. Its not about being supportive, as it's been decided that our freedoms are based on the capacity of our medical systems and we can introduce mandates that would see certain groups being banned from a particular setting. Whether its popular or not and regardless of political affiliation. Example, someone who is unvaccinated being banned from a restaurant.
Going by these principles, isn't it time we take swifter and more firm action against those that have an elevated BMI? This group in particular uses up a considerable amounts of our medical resources than the unvaccinated would for COVID and other diseases. This group in particular also represents one of the most common co-morbidities in hospitalised COVID patients.
Lets use this great opportunity to usher in BMI passports.
Narasumas
Member
To be fair…I’m not for mandates generally speaking…but when reading this smoking in restaurants comes to mind. I think that is a somewhat applicable analogy for your thinking exercise.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
First point: I feel like a targeted response towards protecting the most vulnerable cohorts has a higher probability for success than aiming for a full-spectrum alternative that has a miniscule chance of succeeding in driving the pathogen to extinction. Furthermore the latter approach risks immense collateral damage to social cohesion and institutional trust, as well as overloading to the point of collapse the healthcare systems we are ostensibly looking to protect.
Second point: Smallpox is a very well studied pathogen that is known to have a 30% mortality rate in the unvaccinated, its an extremely deadly disease. Covid has nowhere near that, so I don't see how its comparable. You may as well compare it to Ebola, as that is proportionally way closer in terms of lethality to Smallpox than SARS-COV2 is to even the 2003 SARS-COV virus.
purvispisgah
Member
This is such a strange post to me. Besides briefly discussing obesity (which is strangely what I responded to in the first place) everything I've posted in here has been an effort to try to get you and others see that just being a jerk about this is counterproductive.Maybe if he didn’t try to sanctimoniously tone police other people, he might not meet with such a response. Besides, he - like you - can cheerfully stick me on ignore if you don’t like me pointing out the bullshit
The central point being… stop trying to tell others how we should talk about, or treat anti-vaxxers. If you want to defend them, defend them, but cease with the holier than thou attitude, because it’s patently absurd and isn’t fooling anyone.
I don't know your mind, I won't pretend too.
But it seems that you (and others) believe
anyone that hasn't gotten a vaccine at this point is stupid or malicious. There's no excuse and no one should be on the fence. If that's true, then why even post here. To mock them? If you truly believe that the vaccine will save lives, then why are your posts so full of bile? What does it serve?
People follow those around them. We're social creatures, we rely on social cues for our behavior. Your posts in this thread could tip the scales for someone. Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does to me.
You can call it sanctimonious or talk about tone policing. My experience with the concept of "tone-policing" is that it is almost always used by those that would rather just be mean-spirited than have an actual discussion. Interacting with you and seeing how you interact with others certainly hasn't changed my opinion.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Smoking rates have been reduced to about 12% in the US. But the obese still account for about 43%, which is quite considerable.
Since it's been decided now that freedom / personal choice is directly linked to hospital admissions, I think it's time we tackle the real pandemic that continues to plague our hospitals in many developed countries, which is the pandemic of the obese.
If we act now by enforcing severe restrictions on those that over consume, we can ensure our medical systems are far less strained now and for future variants of covid and new viruses too. This would be more effective than mandatory vaccinations for the few vulnerable people that aren't jabbed yet.
Since the precedent is being set now, why not?
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
What's the end game? It's hard to say. This is still early days, relatively, and there's still so much we don't know. Until we find a vaccine that works on all coronaviruses, yearly shots might be in our future. It's the same way we seal with the flu, except the COVID ones will be more necessary because COVID19 is much much more dangerous than the flu. It might even be the case that once we find a safe and effective dose for infants, COVID vaccination will be "mandatory" for newborns just like it is with measles, mumps, and the rest of those diseases we don't worry about anymore because 90+% of our population is vaccinated against them.
We could look back in history at other diseases/pandemics and how they were resolved. The Black Death was resolved because our standards of hygiene improved.
The Spanish Flu was resolved because we went through wave after wave of infections over many many years, and eventually we all got "natural" immunity from it. If I remember correctly, many of the flu strains today are variants of the ancestral Spanish Flu. Fortunately, we don't have to endure so many "natural" deaths and multiple decades in order to deal with COVID. Because we have vaccines.
Polio/Smallpox/Measles were resolved not through natural infection, but through a mass vaccination campaign worldwide. Because of this, Polio and smallpox are basically extinct and only exist in a lab. Measles isn't a threat anymore and only pops up occasionally in pockets of unvaccinated individuals.
We've eliminated or greatly reduced diseases in the past and made them a memory. There's no reason we can't turn COVID19 into a memory as well, especially since we live in the future and have access to even greater computational and genetic manipulation technologies.
This is a political/bureaucratic problem. The goals are clear. The proper ways to achieve those goals will be under debate. Just because some states are fucking things up in your opinion doesn't mean that is inevitable for everyone. I could just as easily point out Japan and how they're doing great and most people are moving on with their lives.
Punished Miku
Banned
Ask any hospital if they have the staff to treat high bmi patients. Get back to me with your findings.
The real war against obesity needs to start now, but it will look like the war on smoking, not vaccine passports. It'll be taxes, banning products and extreme regulations on advertising to kids.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Being fat is not a contagious disease.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
But a chronic disease that will mean many need to use up our medical resources at an earlier stage in their lives and over a long period of their lives.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
You used the word "everyone" with emphasis twice in the statement you made in response to my request to succinctly outline your position. One was in boldface, the other fully capitalized. You may think this is simply pettiness on my part, but I feel that connoted an absolutist position.
In my statement I tried to emphasize my view that vaccination should be encouraged, especially for the vulnerable, but I don't believe that vaccination is a necessity for everyone.
Punished Miku
Banned
Go ask a nurse how they feel about covid patients vs fat patients. Seriously, see what they say.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yup, and it sucks. A lot of people do a lot of unhealthy things that reduce their lifespan and make them a drain on the system, especially in America.
The difference is that an unvaccinated people is a public safety issue because not only are they more at risk of serious illness that puts a drain on our system, but we will experience a huge wave of them, which is a pattern that we don't see in fat people. Fat people die at a fairly regular rate that our healthcare system can manage. Fat people don't die in huge waves and overwhelm our hospitals. Unvaccinated people do die in huge waves that overwhelm our hospitals. That's why they are dangerous. Furthermore, they are more likely to be infected with SARSCOV2 and more likely to have a longer infectious period, making them on average more contagious to others than vaccinated people. This is why being unvaccinated is a public safety threat.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
We have a sugar tax in the UK and stricter regulations on advertising to kids. Many are sceptical they'll accomplish much when many kids are living quite sedentary lives.
Covid-19: Highest death rates seen in countries with most overweight populations
Covid-19 death rates are 10 times higher in countries where more than half of the adult population is classified as overweight, a comprehensive report from the World Obesity Federation has found. The report analysed mortality data from Johns Hopkins University and the WHO Global Health...
Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19
Having obesity increases risk of severe illness from COVID-19.
www.cdc.gov
Narasumas
Member
Oh, dude obesity is a STUPIDLY huge issue for the globe. I’m shocked every time I see the % obese Americans (and other countries) rise annually. Statistically speaking, you are obese which is nuts.
I was kind of talking about the concept of an individual’s actions being a harm to others, hence needing policy or legislative intervention. You brought up obesity robbing medical resources, akin to what others have suggested that unvaccinated rob medical resources.
The smoking thing randomly just popped in my head but it straddles two issues. 1) Not allowing unvaccinated into restaurants and how we no longer allow smokers in restaurants. For smoking, this is obv because the direct, personal actions have a secondary effect on others (second-hand smoke). 2) Legislating against it.
Obesity is a personal harm (I’m only harming myself, right?) but use up medical resources. Same as what some may say about being unvaccinated….BUT, obesity is static whereas you can spread COVID! Similar to smoking in restaurants, a personal harm (to the smoker), has a secondary effect on others (second-hand smoke), and potentially uses medical resources (thru unhealthy lifestyle like obesity). We legislated against smoking, and that was (more or less) accepted by society. COVID—no way, it’s a top issue of the past year.
I think that lies in the politicization, the speed and frequency in which this came upon, the constantly moving scientific conclusions from experts, etc. etc.
The only difference regarding legislation between the three things (obesity, smoking, COVID) is the ability to directly affect others. But the issue is, if you don’t actually HAVE COVID, how are you directly affecting someone? Why would legislation of vaccines be necessary? Well obviously that’s a whole nother topic with a bunch of different reasons why you would argue the need to be vaccinated. That’s not what I’m saying or what this response is.
Trying to draw the distinction you made between obesity and COVID, and smoking popped to mind as a bridge issue between the two.
I also just got home from a really long day at work, smoked a doobie and am really stoned now. I really rambled there. Prob without a point too. I need to log off.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Covid-19: Highest death rates seen in countries with most overweight populations
Covid-19 death rates are 10 times higher in countries where more than half of the adult population is classified as overweight, a comprehensive report from the World Obesity Federation has found. The report analysed mortality data from Johns Hopkins University and the WHO Global Health...www.bmj.com
Obesity, Race/Ethnicity, and COVID-19
Having obesity increases risk of severe illness from COVID-19.
....and?
Tell me what is more reasonable to do in the span of a day:
1. Take an hour to get a free vaccine that will very effectively stave off severe illness and death.
2. Lose 100 pounds, lower your cholesterol, lower your blood pressure, and find a newfound love for vegetables.
If you never see the data because it doesn't enter your social media and friendship bubble, it doesn't matter. Or if you lack the basic statistical expertise to understand the data. For example I had a discussion with someone who didn't understand how we could measure the effectiveness of vaccination if we couldn't "prove" the vaccinated group were exposed to the virus.I can only assume that must be a driving factor at this point, given how much data is freely available that shows how safe, effective and important the vaccines are.
I guess just rampant selfishness and entitlement also come into it as well, though. I’d forgotten those. Thanks for setting me straight
At some level I think society depends on people trusting that scientists know what they are doing, and when that trust erodes, it is a problem.
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Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
No, the point was sound and reasonable. Smoking is both a threat to one's self and others in your vicinity, which is why the act of smoking is banned in many public places. Being unvaccinated is both a threat to one's self and others in your vicinity, which is why the act of being unvaccinated is banned in many public places too. Both activities are not prohibited in private.
Being fat is only a threat to one's self. That's it.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It sounds like that person needs to take a bioethics class.
purvispisgah
Member
If I have time I'd like to address a previous post but I have to ask, what percentage of the population could effectively absorb the information from a bioethics class?
I think the percentage is incredibly small, likely less than 5%, if I'm being pessimistic, 2%.
TheFarter
Banned
I'm sorry but that tweet is hilarious. "Natural immunity"
Almost like a reason some have given in this thread. Oh but wait. I'm supposedly scared of a needle. Guess what my natural immunity did for me? it made me breeze thru the new Covid. Like 99% of everyone else does. I'm not calling you out Hamster, just using the tweet you post.
I've also notice that people that are hardcore get the shot now people. They love dunking on people who die not being vaxxed. But you never see the people without the shot, foaming at the mouth ready to dunk on someone who dies of the shot. It's all so weird these days. Just look at sports. Anyone catching rona that hasn't had a shot gets shit on. Yet the players who catch the rona and are fully vaxxed up, all you hear is "get well soon" There's no difference in most all of these sports guys. They're back all quick and fast. Just one had a shot and the other didn't. They both overall caught rona.
Again.Weird times.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
For all you people who are anti-vax, serious question...
If government and employers werent demanding covid shots, would you then get it (ie . they were chill about it and werent on media 24/7 talking about it)?
I ask because earlier this year I saw a chart (too bad I didn't bookmark it) where a ton of people surveyed gave their reason why they dont want to get the vaccine.
The #1 reason for avoiding the vaccines weren't untrustworthy drugs or its a hassle to get two shots etc...
The top reason was "We don't like being told what to do by the government"
As a kid at the dinner table, when your parents asked you to do something were you similar and purposely did the opposite of what they said for sake of defiance?
If government and employers werent demanding covid shots, would you then get it (ie . they were chill about it and werent on media 24/7 talking about it)?
I ask because earlier this year I saw a chart (too bad I didn't bookmark it) where a ton of people surveyed gave their reason why they dont want to get the vaccine.
The #1 reason for avoiding the vaccines weren't untrustworthy drugs or its a hassle to get two shots etc...
The top reason was "We don't like being told what to do by the government"
As a kid at the dinner table, when your parents asked you to do something were you similar and purposely did the opposite of what they said for sake of defiance?
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MastAndo
Member
Covid crew, I need advice. Someone I was with on New Year's Eve just informed me that he has Covid. I'm not showing any symptoms, and I'm going to wait the 5 days and I'll go get tested on Wednesday or Thursday. I have my father's 80th birthday dinner on Saturday, so now that's thrown for a loop. I would hate to miss out, but will err on the side of caution when old folks are involved. Would you feel confident enough in a negative test (and being asymptomatic) to attend the event? Oh and also, I had received my 2nd Pfizer vaccination shot in early October.
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Lady Redfield
Member
2 negative just to be sure would make me feel a little better about it and I would still personally wear a mask, just in case.
Malakhov
Banned
This.
I'm getting a lot less of attacks by people close to me that were pro-vaccines like the circle jerk in this thread since I got covid and it went away as a minor cold in a few days, some of them would probably be dancing on my grave if I had died from it.
The obesssive pro-vaxed are the equivalence of a certain political affiliation, hideous. This whole thing is political more than a health issue.
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BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
We can't cherry pick data we like. Everything is context; we must consider case load, hospitalization rates, deaths, and the traits of the prevailing variants.
Earlier in the thread I mentioned how each wave predictably plays out, and that because of the vast transmissibility of omicron along with its traits of immune escape that if it were mild it was going to need to be super, super mild not to overwhelm health systems - healthcare experts and other scientists were warning.
So as of a week ago and continuing to the present what have we seen? Hospitalization rates have skyrocketed in even highly vaccinated cities because of the sheer volume of case loads and the immune escape traits of the variant. New York and New Jersey saw 400% increases in child hospitalizations compared to the previous wave of delta. We are reaching higher case loads than ever before, and some cities higher hospitalizations than ever before as well. And so on. Many were predicting this coming in because there's no omicron-specific vaccine.
So again, we can't willfully miss the forest for the trees. We can't only look at and interpret data in a way in which makes us feel comfortable. It's all context.
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MrFunSocks
Banned
Case load is irrelevant if the health system is handling it just fine. Like I said, being vaccinated doesn't stop you from getting COVID so reporting that thousands of vaccinated people are getting it is irrelevant if 99% of them don't even get any symptoms or just get a mild cold like symptom or 2. The important numbers are number of hospitalizations and number in ICU. Number of infections is irrelevant at this stage.
funkygunther
Banned
Are people at the event vaccinated? At least your family?
Also, is the test you're getting LFT or PCR?
MastAndo
Member
My family is vaccinated. I can't speak for everyone attending, but I believe they are vaccinated as well.
My plan was to ask for the rapid test and PCR, hoping that I can the latter back in a couple of days before the party.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
To suggest case loads are irrelevant in the face of a new, more transmissible variant with immune escape traits, while the winter wave of it is just getting started, is an absurd notion.
These are what the numbers of ICU bed usage due to COVID-19 looks like for the twelve hospitals within the healthcare network I work for. See how the sheer case load, even for a mild variant, are making hospitalizations sharply increase in most (the regions this data represents has a collective population of about 9 million):
(Seven days ago > Now)
8% > 13%
~1% > 14%
11% > 22%
~1% > 14%
24% > 25%
7% > 9%
11% > 23%
18% > 32%
12% > 28%
10%> 24%
24% > 31%
10%> 13%
Again, hospitalizations are increasing due to the sheer volume in the cities currently being hit with the start of the wave. The overall amount of hospitalizations has more than doubled in the last ten days in the DC metro region, for example, traditionally one of the major urban centers hit as each wave begins - such as this one.
One doesn't even need to be a care provider, technician, healthcare IT worker, or general health researcher to realize this. The number of infections and the rate at which they are increasing is absolutely vital to any discussion of this wave, any previous wave, and any future wave, and cannot simply be hand waved away because it doesn't fit whatever narrative one has developed in their head, or because it makes them uncomfortable.
*snort* Can't make this sentiment from anti-vaxxers up. Complete lack of self awareness or reality.
This, people, is why governments are promoting compulsory vaccination and mandates. For some people water will never be wet, the sky will never be blue, unless their guy on YouTube tells them they are. Facts and logic be damned.
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betrayal
Banned
Excuse me?
The chance that the two would have died of COVID if both had been healthy people is extremely low.
It were the multiple pre-existing conditions and severe obesity that killed these people. These factors have exponentially increased the risk of death.
People like you are the problem of this really stupid fucking society. You shoot yourself in the knee every day for years and then you attack others because you can't walk properly.
funkygunther
Banned
All right, if the tests come back negative I would go but I'd also get an at-home kit to test again on Saturday before heading to the party.
betrayal
Banned
I am vaccinated and clearly in favor of vaccination.
And now?
They were extremely stupid not to get vaccinated. But none of this changes the fact that obesity and quite a few pre-existing conditions are the primary catalysts for most COVID deaths. The best and worst part is that you are responsible for it. Hope you water is still wet now my friend.
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funkygunther
Banned
And the actual primary catalyst is getting COVID.
betrayal
Banned
That's only true if they haven't been constantly and actively attacking their own health for years or decades before.
I don't know how you live your life. But when it comes to things that are in your own hands (some people call this "personal responsibility"), it is always better to act than to react.
Thanks to the vaccination, they even had a chance to save their lives, despite the massive mistakes they had made in their lives. But even then, they made the wrong choice.
Cyberpunkd
Member
No, they just want no vaccine passes and no restrictions so they can go on with their lives and put the lives of others in danger. That kid you brush off against in the supermarket might have reduced immunity and contract severe case of Covid as a result. But hey, muh rights, correct?