Support NeoGAF

[Rentahamster]

Your points are noted, and it’s clear that you have more than a layman’s understanding of immune function. However, I would like to point out that the considerations you highlight do not preclude natural immunity being more robust/durable/effective than vaccine-induced immunity. That is to say, all else being equal (i.e. if the binding strength is roughly the same or greater, or if the other features/benefits of natural immunity as compared to vax immunity - such as the ability to recognize/neutralize other viral moieties - are enough to outweigh a slight difference in binding affinity), natural immunity should be superior to vaccine-induced immunity for the reasons I mentioned. Note that I said “should be.” Data is still coming in on that front, but from what I’ve seen thus far, particularly recent papers on how exceedingly rare reinfection has been, it appears that this is in fact the case.

Watch this video

 

[Rentahamster]

Here is also a good soundbite about how the positive effects of the vaccine is greater than the sum of its parts, both in the present on onwards to the future.

 

[poppabk]

Your points are noted, and it’s clear that you have more than a layman’s understanding of immune function. However, I would like to point out that the considerations you highlight do not preclude natural immunity being more robust/durable/effective than vaccine-induced immunity. That is to say, all else being equal (i.e. if the binding strength is roughly the same or greater, or if the other features/benefits of natural immunity as compared to vax immunity - such as the ability to recognize/neutralize other viral moieties - are enough to outweigh a slight difference in binding affinity), natural immunity should be superior to vaccine-induced immunity for the reasons I mentioned. Note that I said “should be.” Data is still coming in on that front, but from what I’ve seen thus far, particularly recent papers on how exceedingly rare reinfection has been, it appears that this is in fact the case.

It's quite possible that immunity after infection is more robust, but it is more likely because getting infected is like getting a vaccine booster shot every day for two weeks and at a dangerously high dose. The limited data we have from the Chinese whole virus vaccines suggests that your hypothesis may be flawed.

 

[SF Kosmo]

You seem to have made this pretty personal and you have assumed that I have zero qualifications or training in any applicable area. You are wrong.

Anyway, I did listen to my GP. He told me not to have any of the vaccines currently available because of a pre-existing condition.

No, I am not making it personal, I am talking about this rash of "do your own research" googling where people find the answers they want.

You went to your usual doctor and took his advice that makes sense. That isn't want I am talking about though.

 

[SF Kosmo]

It's quite possible that immunity after infection is more robust, but it is more likely because getting infected is like getting a vaccine booster shot every day for two weeks and at a dangerously high dose. The limited data we have from the Chinese whole virus vaccines suggests that your hypothesis may be flawed.

Some of the data suggests that mild and asymptomatic infection doesn't afford you the same level of protection that more severe Covid for exactly the reasons you're suggesting.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

So what's up with that treatment to prevent the cytokine storm? Looks like it might start saving people, read it's in phase 2 atm.

 

[Chaplain]

 

[sinnergy]

Some of the data suggests that mild and asymptomatic infection doesn't afford you the same level of protection that more severe Covid for exactly the reasons you're suggesting.

Yes , i know 1 person that had no traces of Covid after a infection after less than 2 months . So that could be the case in a larger scale , we are still learning

 

[ManaByte]

 

[reksveks]

This is causing me to have some unhelpful feelings

 

[Jaysen]

This is causing me to have some unhelpful feelings

She’s an idiot.

also :

Austin, Texas, activates emergency alert system in response to COVID surge

In an alert sent via text, city authorities wrote "the Covid-19 situation in Austin is dire."

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Deleted member 17706]

If you think that the vaccines are not particularly good at preventing delta infection, I don't know where you're getting that from or from what data you're basing that conclusion on. As time goes on, perhaps the situation will change. However, in the here and now, the data overwhelmingly shows a protective effect against delta infection.

That data from countries other than the United States that I've already shared multiple times in this thread. In the face of those data, the reports coming out of the United States are beyond incredulous, especially when so many seem to go out of their way to use data going all the way back to December or January to get their desired number, not to mention how our CDC changed their tracking methodology of breakthrough cases back in May, which really muddied the waters.

It's fine. Surely the US will catch up on this point as well, just like they did on the idea that the vaccinated don't transmit the disease.

 

[vpance]

Indiana doc's fiery presentation in front of local school board. Timestamped here




Studies referenced
https://hancockcountypatriots.blogspot.com/2021/08/dr-dan-stocks-presentation-to-mt-vernon.html

 

[synchronicity]

The problem is that the science changing has a direct impact on people’s lives right now. And the things these scientists are saying aren’t being treated as their “educated, reasonably best assumptions based on available data.” They’re being treated as some sort of gospel that will save lives. At least for a few months until they hand down a new gospel that throws out the old one.

I get that science kind of works that way. New information should change our minds. The problem is the consequences of the stuff the scientists are saying. We closed business and schools. We strapped masks to our faces. We put shots in our arms. We have profoundly effected people’s lives. All based on the idea that these people are reasonably certain. So when it seems like their opinions shift with the wind, it rightly gets people concerned because we treating these people’s “scientific opinions” based on available data as fact and allowing them to run our lives to a greater degree than is actually appropriate.

Yes, amidst uncertainty, often the best course of action is to do nothing.

If you look at the history of our understanding of things (scientifically speaking), both medically and otherwise, we see a road peppered with potholes and innumerable wrong turns. (and there's nothing wrong with that)

I mean, we're a species that used heroin as medicine, thought smoking was healthy, drilled holes in peoples heads for various reasons, among endless other "treatments" that were broadly accepted at the times of their use. We laugh at that ignorance now, but what things are us "sophisticated and enlightened" modern scientifically attuned people doing that will be considered barbaric or simply inept through the lens of the future? Time will tell. (I'm not saying that vaccines in general are comparable to the things mentioned.)

To make hurried decisions out of fear is not a mode in which I like to operate, especially when I see no reason not to wait. Could foregoing vaccination cost me my life? Potentially. But I have an immune system, and I don't have confidence in taking a vaccine for which long-term effects are an unknown as a potential preventive measure, especially one which has had such a short runway to takeoff. Of course everyone must make their own decisions.

Side note - I see Evillore mentioned the personal stuff. I know people get excited about things they are passionate about, but we're all in the same boat. All of us want to live and be happy, and sometimes we differ in our approach/perspective. But that doesn't mean that we aren't fundamentally the same. I know it's pointless to say, but we should treat each other with respect, even if we cannot comprehend the perspective of another, or even if we think they are borderline retarded.

 

[SF Kosmo]

This is causing me to have some unhelpful feelings

Skull made of pure cast iron.

 

[Nobody_Important]

This is causing me to have some unhelpful feelings

I obviously feel bad for her situation, but the delusions she is having are extremely unhealthy.

 

[RJMacready73]

As of 2019, according to the Gallup Poll, 40% of Americans think that humans were created in their present form by God.

40% of Americans Believe in Creationism

Four in 10 Americans have a creationist view of human origins, while 33% believe humans evolved with God's guidance and 22% without it.

news.gallup.com

Evolution, Creationism, Intelligent Design

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings – [ROTATED: human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life and God guided this process, human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of...

news.gallup.com

That's a whole lot of stupid breeding more stupid and watching none stop 24/hr stupid on TV... i honestly feel sorry for the Normal yanks surrounded by such idiocy and youse cant do a damn thing to change it

 

[Jaysen]

I obviously feel bad for her situation, but the delusions she is having are extremely unhealthy.

If they didn’t get vaccinated because of advice from her, she helped seal their fate.

 

[Nobody_Important]

If they didn’t get vaccinated because of advice from her, she helped seal their fate.

I feel terrible for people like that. They get caught up in the lies from the grifters and then either they themselves suffer directly or the ones around them do.


The guilt must be off the charts.

 

[DeaDPo0L84]

This is causing me to have some unhelpful feelings

I feel nothing.

 

[L0la H4vana]

I think it's sad that no one thinks of the unknown repercussions this vaccine could have on future generations. What about the pregnant mothers who are getting vaccines and what about the often bribed kids. And seriously as soon as they start bribing you with stuff that should get alarm bells ringing like crazy. I read they were bribing kids with free takeaway to get the shot.

And no one has any idea what the long term effects are. For as much as we know in five years it could kill you. Some people are dying because of the vaccine NOW. Some are still getting the virus anyway. Some are getting bloodclots. All of this sounds like we are the guinea pigs. Woops you got some possibly deadly damage there buddy, but at least the virus didn't get you! ....oooops!! Oh well.

And all this is the rational choice? Blindly accepting the instructions without any thought for the future? Buying into the mass hysterics and propaganda and manipulation?

If you really WANT this vaccine go take it.
If you don't want it but are afraid you might get sick or lose your job...don't.

And for god's sake just poke your nose even slightly outside of the mainstream news and you'll see many doctors and professionals warning people about these shots.

 

[FunkMiller]

If you truly believe this you’re an uneducated sophist. Religion is for credulous people? Have you heard of Pascal’s bet? Denomination doesn’t count? So what about pastafarianism?

i think you really should put water in your wine, and don’t go talking for anyone else but you. If your argument is sound it can stand on its own and doesn’t have to be some kind of genkidama where everyone on earth but US citizens give you their voices so you can finally shut the « bad guy » up…

Pastafarianism is a joke religion, created by atheists to take the piss. Ramen.

And rail against it all you like, but genuine religious belief (any religion, take your pick) is an indicator of a person's credulity. If someone is willing to believe in something with no empirical evidence to support it, then that person shows a high degree of readiness to believe in things presented to them (the definition of credulity).

Is the term credulous offensive? If so, I apologise, and will substitute with 'trusting'. Religious people trust on faith what they are being told about their religion, without further enquiry. Sceptical people on the other hand will question the truth of what they are being told, and will investigate further. Religion relies on faith. Faith is the enemy of scepticism.

And I do find it strange that I hear from so many Americans who have devout religious belief, who at the same time are highly sceptical of the information they are being given by scientists about covid. I have friends in Philly who attend church regularly, believe what The Bible says, and absolutely have faith in a personal god. Yet they also disbelief most evidence about how dangerous covid is (they are vaccinated though). I find the double standard more than a little jarring. However, they are also lovely people, so I don't try to dwell on it.

 

[Jaysen]

I think it's sad that no one thinks of the unknown repercussions this vaccine could have on future generations. What about the pregnant mothers who are getting vaccines and what about the often bribed kids. And seriously as soon as they start bribing you with stuff that should get alarm bells ringing like crazy. I read they were bribing kids with free takeaway to get the shot.

And no one has any idea what the long term effects are. For as much as we know in five years it could kill you. Some people are dying because of the vaccine NOW. Some are still getting the virus anyway. Some are getting bloodclots. All of this sounds like we are the guinea pigs. Woops you got some possibly deadly damage there buddy, but at least the virus didn't get you! ....oooops!! Oh well.

And all this is the rational choice? Blindly accepting the instructions without any thought for the future? Buying into the mass hysterics and propaganda and manipulation?

If you really WANT this vaccine go take it.
If you don't want it but are afraid you might get sick or lose your job...don't.

And for god's sake just poke your nose even slightly outside of the mainstream news and you'll see many doctors and professionals warning people about these shots.

Yeah, why worry about shit that is actively killing people when we can just ignore that and worry about shit that hasn’t happened. Good plan.

 

[Nobody_Important]

I think it's sad that no one thinks of the unknown repercussions this vaccine could have on future generations. What about the pregnant mothers who are getting vaccines and what about the often bribed kids. And seriously as soon as they start bribing you with stuff that should get alarm bells ringing like crazy. I read they were bribing kids with free takeaway to get the shot.

And no one has any idea what the long term effects are. For as much as we know in five years it could kill you. Some people are dying because of the vaccine NOW. Some are still getting the virus anyway. Some are getting bloodclots. All of this sounds like we are the guinea pigs. Woops you got some possibly deadly damage there buddy, but at least the virus didn't get you! ....oooops!! Oh well.

And all this is the rational choice? Blindly accepting the instructions without any thought for the future? Buying into the mass hysterics and propaganda and manipulation?

If you really WANT this vaccine go take it.
If you don't want it but are afraid you might get sick or lose your job...don't.

And for god's sake just poke your nose even slightly outside of the mainstream news and you'll see many doctors and professionals warning people about these shots.

Can we don't do the conspiracy stuff please.

 

[Razorback]

 

[Deleted member 1159]

I think it's sad that no one thinks of the unknown repercussions this vaccine could have on future generations. What about the pregnant mothers who are getting vaccines and what about the often bribed kids. And seriously as soon as they start bribing you with stuff that should get alarm bells ringing like crazy. I read they were bribing kids with free takeaway to get the shot.

And no one has any idea what the long term effects are. For as much as we know in five years it could kill you. Some people are dying because of the vaccine NOW. Some are still getting the virus anyway. Some are getting bloodclots. All of this sounds like we are the guinea pigs. Woops you got some possibly deadly damage there buddy, but at least the virus didn't get you! ....oooops!! Oh well.

And all this is the rational choice? Blindly accepting the instructions without any thought for the future? Buying into the mass hysterics and propaganda and manipulation?

If you really WANT this vaccine go take it.
If you don't want it but are afraid you might get sick or lose your job...don't.

And for god's sake just poke your nose even slightly outside of the mainstream news and you'll see many doctors and professionals warning people about these shots.

Sam Harris had a guest on his podcast recently that made it sound like in the history of vaccine development, there’s not been an adverse reaction recorded after 2 months post-vaccination. Well, we’ve been testing and then widely distributing these for what, over a year now? The possibility of some freak side effects showing up down the road is incredibly remote, especially when we’re likely in for boosters to maintain immunity, and in comparison to what actual COVID infection does…well there is no comparison. Actual COVID has killed millions, the vaccine will save millions without compromising safety.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Sam Harris had a guest on his podcast recently that made it sound like in the history of vaccine development, there’s not been an adverse reaction recorded after 2 months post-vaccination.

That's irrelevant, though, because these don't work in the same way as a traditional vaccine. Just because we use the same word for them does not mean they are the same.

Now, I sincerely hope that there are zero long-term negative effects with these, but the fact remains that we simply cannot know.

 

[Jaysen]

Whoops!

 

[FunkMiller]

Jesus. That's quite scary, isn't it?

Another poor fool convinced that the vaccines are experimental because of the stuff he read on social media - when they absolutely are not.

These types of posts are just going to pile up more and more, and that's horrific.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

That's irrelevant, though, because these don't work in the same way as a traditional vaccine. Just because we use the same word for them does not mean they are the same.

Now, I sincerely hope that there are zero long-term negative effects with these, but the fact remains that we simply cannot know.

Not all of the vaccines are mRNA based and the fact that some are doesn’t exactly mean we throw everything we know about biology out the window. Almost all biotech is an iterative process where small changes are made over time based on longstanding, proven tech. The fact there’s some novel approach at play here doesn’t mean all the sudden our dicks are going to fall off next year, the biggest risk at this point is likely the immunity gets weaker and you get COVID for real.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Not all of the vaccines are mRNA based and the fact that some are doesn’t exactly mean we throw everything we know about biology out the window. Almost all biotech is an iterative process where small changes are made over time based on longstanding, proven tech. The fact there’s some novel approach at play here doesn’t mean all the sudden our dicks are going to fall off next year, the biggest risk at this point is likely the immunity gets weaker and you get COVID for real.

No it does not mean that, but we do not know what it means yet. We can speculate and theorize and the experts will probably (hopefully) be right in the end, but we cannot know until sufficient time passes.

Other than the Chinese vaccines and Novavax, I believe the only ones on the market are the same in that they use your own cells to create the spike protein against which an immune response is triggered rather than injecting a fixed amount of a foreign substance for your immune system to deal with.

Again, I truly hope they work as advertised and how they are said to have been engineered, but only time can tell.

 

[FunkMiller]

Not all of the vaccines are mRNA based and the fact that some are doesn’t exactly mean we throw everything we know about biology out the window. Almost all biotech is an iterative process where small changes are made over time based on longstanding, proven tech. The fact there’s some novel approach at play here doesn’t mean all the sudden our dicks are going to fall off next year, the biggest risk at this point is likely the immunity gets weaker and you get COVID for real.

AstraZeneca is a pretty old fashioned adenovirus vector vaccine, as is J&J.

God bless you, chimpanzees.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Whoops!

Like seriously no joke buddy the whole dancing on people’s graves routine is abhorrent, you should be ashamed but I know you’re not. You can think these people are stupid but when you keep popping in just to celebrate people’s deaths morally normal folks feel disgusted.

 

[Razorback]

That's irrelevant, though, because these don't work in the same way as a traditional vaccine. Just because we use the same word for them does not mean they are the same.

Now, I sincerely hope that there are zero long-term negative effects with these, but the fact remains that we simply cannot know.

mRna isn't some magical new thing that no one understands. It's just a faster way of achieving the same result that before took a lot more effort.

The outer shell of the virus has these prongs that stick out. The shape of them determines if they can attach to your cells so they can get inside and spread their genetic material. Those replicators inside are the problem.
A vaccine is just a method of recreating this outer shell without the inside contents. It's harmless. It just tells your immune system to look out for this particular shape when it finds it.

Do you have any reason to suspect that these empty shells will somehow lay dormant for long periods of time only to eventually become terribly dangerous?
Something that has never happened before for as long as we have been making vaccines?

 

[Kraz]

This tweeters later point about how disinformation influencing individuals is killing people.

Calling the jab 'experimental' puts a context on it that leads to confusion and distrust. Especially when those that use that sort of terminology are allowed to share their disinformation and FUD regularly in places where there is better discussion since the better discussion lends a legitimacy to the disinformation argument by allowing it to be repeated. It's ok to let new users express themselves to let people that are vulnerable to disinformation a chance to be corrected on medical science. It's the ones that regularly try to use the same talking points and buzzwords to instill distrust in vaccines that take up time and resources and help keep the antivaxxer hamsterwheel spinning that empowers them in public discourse among those still vulnerable and hesitant.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Some of you are losing your fucking minds. Do you laugh when people who don’t wear sunscreen die of skin cancer? Do you talk about their family members feeling guilt for not encouraging them to wear it? Do they deserve what they get? You people are completely insane at this point. Have some fucking decency. It’s ridiculous.

 

[QSD]

Many people in this thread point the finger resolutely at social media for causing a sudden pandemic of paranoia on top of the covid pandemic. I'd say most people would really like to be able to trust their doctors. Facebook posts and tweets about shady goings on in the medical field wouldn't be able to take root in the same way if there hadn't been numerous actual/historical instances of pharmaceutical companies putting profits before the wellbeing of their patients. In other words, there was already a widespread paranoia and mistrust of authority growing in our societies even before the pandemic hit. I feel like blaming social media or Bret and Heather (for example) kind of misses the point. Where are all these feelings of suspicion coming from? Haven't we all been lied to enough in the last say 20 years to make this paranoia at least understandable?

 

[SF Kosmo]

That's irrelevant, though, because these don't work in the same way as a traditional vaccine. Just because we use the same word for them does not mean they are the same.

Now, I sincerely hope that there are zero long-term negative effects with these, but the fact remains that we simply cannot know.

I'm sorry, but is there any point where we can call this concern unreasonable? I mean it's been a year since these things started their clinical trials, we HAVE long term data.

They don't stay in your system very long so at this point any impacts in the long term would be observable in the mid-term as well.

And yet we haven't even observed a single middle-term effect in hundreds of millions of patients. Literally every adverse reaction has been something that develops in the first two weeks and then dissipates as the vaccine leaves the system. EVERY ONE.

You're clinging to an argument from January that is increasingly hard to defend 8 months and BILLIONS of doses later. Like you can try to kick that ball down the road forever and say we "don't know" that some sleeper agent will suddenly activate 5 years from now, just like we "don't know" that dragons won't explode out of the sun tomorrow, but it's a different kind of "not sure" than the kind we should be basing medical decisions on. It's not a "reasonable" concern anymore.

 

[12Goblins]

Like seriously no joke buddy the whole dancing on people’s graves routine is abhorrent, you should be ashamed but I know you’re not. You can think these people are stupid but when you keep popping in just to celebrate people’s deaths morally normal folks feel disgusted.

It's in poor taste for sure, but at this point what else can you do but laugh at this fucking madness? these people are so stubborn and are willing to keep doubling down until the death of their loved ones and themselves, and still that is not enough for some of them. the only silver lining here is hopefully we can finally make some progress on climate change now that we know these pea brains are literally willing to die for their dumbass beliefs. people are fed up with your stupid shit that is hurting everyone.

Climate change: IPCC report is 'code red for humanity'

Heating from humans has caused irreparable damage to the Earth that may get worse in coming decades.

www.bbc.com

try crying about this shit now and see if anybody will listen

 

[Jaysen]

Like seriously no joke buddy the whole dancing on people’s graves routine is abhorrent, you should be ashamed but I know you’re not. You can think these people are stupid but when you keep popping in just to celebrate people’s deaths morally normal folks feel disgusted.

He actively encouraged people to not get the vaccine. He was a fucking danger to others. I’m not gonna cry for people willfully trying to get others killed. Fuck him. His last act on Earth was downplaying the thing killing him in the hopes that others would do the same.

 

[Infiltrator Irelia]

I think it's sad that no one thinks of the unknown repercussions this vaccine could have on future generations. What about the pregnant mothers who are getting vaccines and what about the often bribed kids. And seriously as soon as they start bribing you with stuff that should get alarm bells ringing like crazy. I read they were bribing kids with free takeaway to get the shot.

And no one has any idea what the long term effects are. For as much as we know in five years it could kill you. Some people are dying because of the vaccine NOW. Some are still getting the virus anyway. Some are getting bloodclots. All of this sounds like we are the guinea pigs. Woops you got some possibly deadly damage there buddy, but at least the virus didn't get you! ....oooops!! Oh well.

And all this is the rational choice? Blindly accepting the instructions without any thought for the future? Buying into the mass hysterics and propaganda and manipulation?

If you really WANT this vaccine go take it.
If you don't want it but are afraid you might get sick or lose your job...don't.

And for god's sake just poke your nose even slightly outside of the mainstream news and you'll see many doctors and professionals warning people about these shots.

Your attitude is getting people killed. Real people.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

I'm sorry, but is there any point where we can call this concern unreasonable? I mean it's been a year since these things started their clinical trials, we HAVE long term data.

They don't stay in your system very long so at this point any impacts in the long term would be observable in the mid-term as well.

And yet we haven't even observed a single middle-term effect in hundreds of millions of patients. Literally every adverse reaction has been something that develops in the first two weeks and then dissipates as the vaccine leaves the system. EVERY ONE.

You're clinging to an argument from January that is increasingly hard to defend 8 months and BILLIONS of doses later. Like yes, we don't know for sure that dragons won't explode from the sun tomorrow because tomorrow hasn't happened yet, but it's a different kind of "not sure" than the kind we should be basing medical decisions on.

Feel free to call whatever you want unreasonable. Just don't presume to decide what constitutes that for others when it comes to injecting something into their bodies.

Another reason to wait and see is to see which vaccines end up being more effective in the long-term. It's all still very murky, but we're starting to see indications that Pfizer is failing fast and will likely need frequent boosters (of which the effects are still unknown), while J&J may actually end up providing longer lasting immunity. These are things we just cannot know without the passage of time.

Like seriously no joke buddy the whole dancing on people’s graves routine is abhorrent, you should be ashamed but I know you’re not. You can think these people are stupid but when you keep popping in just to celebrate people’s deaths morally normal folks feel disgusted.

The guy is clearly just here for the schadenfreude of these anecdotes that are being selectively put on full blast. It's disgusting, but that's what he is.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Other than the Chinese vaccines and Novavax, I believe the only ones on the market are the same in that they use your own cells to create the spike protein against which an immune response is triggered rather than injecting a fixed amount of a foreign substance for your immune system to deal with.

J&J/Janssen uses a modified adenovirus that mimics the structure of Covid. It does not use mRNA or provoke your body to produce anything, it's a traditional vaccine.

Feel free to call whatever you want unreasonable. Just don't presume to decide what constitutes that for others when it comes to injecting something into their bodies.

No one here is making you do anything, but I'd like it if you reflected on that point you have been repeating and consider if it's aged poorly or not.

You are free to make irrational decisions, but I don't think you're an irrational person and I don't think you want to do that, so I am asking you, is this point really rational given the length and volume of data now available, or are you simply repeating a rational point from a year ago that no longer applies to the world as it currently exists?

 

[Deleted member 1159]

No it does not mean that, but we do not know what it means yet. We can speculate and theorize and the experts will probably (hopefully) be right in the end, but we cannot know until sufficient time passes.

Other than the Chinese vaccines and Novavax, I believe the only ones on the market are the same in that they use your own cells to create the spike protein against which an immune response is triggered rather than injecting a fixed amount of a foreign substance for your immune system to deal with.

Again, I truly hope they work as advertised and how they are said to have been engineered, but only time can tell.

This is setting the bar irrationally high for “knowing” the vaccines are safe when we know for a fact it’s much safer than COVID, and there’s no mechanism that exists for that to suddenly stop being the case well after the vaccine is out of the body.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

J&J/Janssen uses a modified adenovirus that mimics the structure of Covid. It does not use mRNA or provoke your body to produce anything, it's a traditional vaccine.

You'd better go tell the Reuters fact checkers that they got it wrong. This just popped up on my Twitter trends in a timely way, but you can find out how they work from any numbers of sources.

CORRECTED-Fact Check- COVID-19 vaccines are not experimental and they have not skipped trial stages 

Correction, April 30, 2021: An earlier version of this check described the Pfizer/BioNtech, Moderna and J&J vaccines as being approved for use in the United States. This has been corrected to say these vaccines have been authorized for emergency use by the FDA. Vaccine makers...

www.reuters.com

The Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca shots are viral vector vaccines, a type of jab also used during Ebola outbreaks, as well as in studies of illnesses including influenza, Zika and HIV (here). They both use a modified and weakened version of a harmless adenovirus to deliver instructions to cells to make coronavirus spike proteins.

No one here is making you do anything, but I'd like it if you reflected on that point you have been repeating and consider if it's aged poorly or not.

Depends on how you define "force." Maybe not holding people down to "jab" them quite yet, but there are definitely folks in here salivating at the idea of increased coercion.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

This is setting the bar irrationally high for “knowing” the vaccines are safe when we know for a fact it’s much safer than COVID, and there’s no mechanism that exists for that to suddenly stop being the case well after the vaccine is out of the body.

Sure, you might feel it is unreasonable and ultimately be right in the end. I hope for the sake of the planet that you are. It still comes down to trusting the pharmaceutical companies and various medical authorities that they absolutely got all of this right. Some are more comfortable with that than others for various reasons.

 

[Kraz]

Sneakier antivaxx activists play along to get people to drag their feet.

Start the FUD in the morning, change to agreement in the afternoon.

Tide comes in, tide goes out.
Can't explain that.

 

[Rentahamster]

That data from countries other than the United States that I've already shared multiple times in this thread. In the face of those data, the reports coming out of the United States are beyond incredulous, especially when so many seem to go out of their way to use data going all the way back to December or January to get their desired number, not to mention how our CDC changed their tracking methodology of breakthrough cases back in May, which really muddied the waters.

It's fine. Surely the US will catch up on this point as well, just like they did on the idea that the vaccinated don't transmit the disease.

No it's not beyond incredulous. Are you talking about Iceland? Iceland is one of the most vaccinated countries in the world, so it makes sense that as a larger share of the population get vaccinated, a larger share of them will become infected.

Fact Check-COVID-19 cases in Iceland are not proof that vaccines are ineffective

Rising COVID-19 cases in Iceland are not proof that vaccines are a “failure”, despite claims made online.

mobile.reuters.com

“In Iceland, 85.3% of people over 16 years old are now fully vaccinated against COVID-19 and 4.9% are partially vaccinated. It should therefore not come as a surprise that among new domestic cases, most are vaccinated. Since 9 July, 77% of domestic infections were among vaccinated individuals,” Ásthildur Knútsdóttir, Director General of the Ministry of Health in Iceland told Reuters via email.

“According to the Chief Epidemiologist, evidence shows that the vaccines used in Iceland protect about 60 percent of those fully vaccinated against any kind of infection caused by the delta variant of the virus and over 90 percent against serious illnesses,” she said.

“The fact that many vaccinated people are testing positive after the vaccine with the delta does not mean the vaccine doesn’t work,” Prof Monica Gandhi, Professor of Medicine and Associate Division Chief of the Division of HIV, Infectious Diseases, and Global Medicine at the University of California San Francisco, told Reuters.

“Many asymptomatic people are tested after vaccination and, without incorporating cycle threshold assessment in the PCR test or using antigen-based testing, we don’t know if that test is really a “case” or a low viral load result from the vaccine fighting the virus in your nose ( here ),” Gandhi said.

“Moreover, we are seeing more mild symptomatic breakthrough infections with the delta variant although protection of the vaccines against severe disease seems very high and enduring. Vaccinated people are more likely to seek testing with symptoms than the unvaccinated so the cases may be overrepresented more in the vaccinated,” she added.

Furthermore, if we look at their data:

Data

Latest updates on confirmed infections, the number of people in quarantine or isolation, and more.

www.covid.is

We see that most of their cases are from vaccinated people. As the percentage of vaccinated people nears 100, so will the share of vaccinated breakthrough cases. At a certain point, it becomes hard to intuitively ascertain the significance of the numbers due to the unequal scaling.

So we normalize the data into a per capita configuration.

Here are the past 7 days of case numbers. 461 vaccinated citizens with infections divided by 255,322 vaccinated citizens total equals a per capita rate of 181. Do the same with the unvaccinated citizens, and they have a per capita infection rate of 280. There's a difference.

Add to that the fact that due to the age restrictions, most of the unvaccinated group are young people, who should be more resilient to the virus, yet they are contracting it in greater numbers.

 

[FunkMiller]

Some of you are losing your fucking minds. Do you laugh when people who don’t wear sunscreen die of skin cancer? Do you talk about their family members feeling guilt for not encouraging them to wear it? Do they deserve what they get? You people are completely insane at this point. Have some fucking decency. It’s ridiculous.

If someone repeatedly went on about how sunscreen is dangerous and experimental, and causes illness, and persuaded others not to use it, thereby putting their safety in doubt… I’d laugh like a fucking drain.

However… the poor, dumb gullible fools he convinced? Not so much, no. Some folks are just easily led.

But yeah… fuck anyone spreading misinformation deliberately. They’re hurting people. I don’t feel any sympathy for anyone who wants to do that. World’s better off without them.

Slip, slap, slop.

 

[DeepBreath87]

If someone repeatedly went on about how sunscreen is dangerous and experimental, and causes illness, and persuaded others not to use it, thereby putting their safety in doubt… I’d laugh like a fucking drain.

However… the poor, dumb gullible fools he convinced? Not so much, no. Some folks are just easily led.

But yeah… fuck anyone spreading misinformation deliberately. They’re hurting people. I don’t feel any sympathy for anyone who wants to do that. World’s better off without them.

Slip, slap, slop.

That is still pretty awful from a human perspective. Unless you think the people saying these things are knowingly lying for money/clout. Otherwise, they’re being honest, they’re just mistaken. So if you’re happy wrong-but-honest people are dying, I think you’re being a fairly terrible human being yourself.