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[mckmas8808]

One thing I’ve found difficult to ignore are the staff changes at Sony. I’ve got my E3 Theater Experience lanyards when that was a thing back with the PS4. While I like PS. It’s the only console I pay over a thousand of dollars for games over the years.

It use to be easy to look at “Greatness Awaits” and get what that means. This new page after E3 is done with and new management comes in raises some questions. What do you expect? The push towards service games and then their losses with Concord causing financial issues. Maybe things are fine and there isn’t anything to worry about.

I’m sure PS isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. I also realize gamers are incredibly impatient. Not all, but a lot of them are. They’re ready to throw in the towel if they’re sitting without a new game for 5-6 months. Sony has to keep announcing new content for the consumer to hype up. What happens when that dries up for the sake of chasing trends and mobile numbers?

I 1,000,000% agree with your whole post. The "we care about E3" Sony era was amazing! Sadly those days are gone.

 

[peter42O]

So then what's the problem? If everybody is making more money, what's the issue? If you think Nintendo will continue being great and Sony will continue having a 100+ million console baseline (while charging more money per item), I'm have a hard time seeing the issue.

The problem is that while the revenue would still be there for Microsoft and Sony, the profits wouldn't be and that's what their shareholders and investors want. The main issue isn't now though, it's long term. While I can see PS5 selling 100m+ consoles before PS6 releases, next generation could be a different story depending on how much the console will be at launch.

I'm in the camp of next generation Xbox and PlayStation being $500 for the portable and $800 for the console itself as this is the direction I see both going in. The console for the main hardcore players while the portable will be for the regions in which the consoles barely do anything if at all.

I know majority will look at the $800 price tag for the consoles and be like, WTF when in reality, they should expect it. After all, Microsoft is selling a $600 2TB Xbox Series X and Sony is selling a $700 PlayStation 5 Pro. Now add in a far better CPU, at least 24GB of RAM (even though it should hopefully be 32GB), a slightly better GPU than what's in the Pro with a 2TB SSD and yeah, $800 becomes pretty easy to see.

This is where I believe that Layden will be accurate more than he is now. Even now, not a single official price drop. Sure, you'll get Holiday sales but in general, the consoles haven't decreased at all and neither has Switch. Also, if Switch 2 has two models and one is $500, then yeah, the next gen Xbox/PlayStation consoles will be $800 give or take. I think both Microsoft and Sony are done taking any kind of loss on their hardware because as they both expand/grow outward, they know that the majority of their revenue will come from their software, platform and eco-system as opposed to the single console box.

Gaming as always been an expensive hobby/luxury and will only get more expensive as opposed to cheaper and while I agree with Layden especially with the graphical parts, companies always try to push graphics because it's the easiest aspect of a game to the showcase and also the most difficult to hide. But we'll see how it all plays out over the years to come.

 

[mckmas8808]

The problem is that while the revenue would still be there for Microsoft and Sony, the profits wouldn't be and that's what their shareholders and investors want. The main issue isn't now though, it's long term. While I can see PS5 selling 100m+ consoles before PS6 releases, next generation could be a different story depending on how much the console will be at launch.

I'm in the camp of next generation Xbox and PlayStation being $500 for the portable and $800 for the console itself as this is the direction I see both going in. The console for the main hardcore players while the portable will be for the regions in which the consoles barely do anything if at all.

I know majority will look at the $800 price tag for the consoles and be like, WTF when in reality, they should expect it. After all, Microsoft is selling a $600 2TB Xbox Series X and Sony is selling a $700 PlayStation 5 Pro. Now add in a far better CPU, at least 24GB of RAM (even though it should hopefully be 32GB), a slightly better GPU than what's in the Pro with a 2TB SSD and yeah, $800 becomes pretty easy to see.

This is where I believe that Layden will be accurate more than he is now. Even now, not a single official price drop. Sure, you'll get Holiday sales but in general, the consoles haven't decreased at all and neither has Switch. Also, if Switch 2 has two models and one is $500, then yeah, the next gen Xbox/PlayStation consoles will be $800 give or take. I think both Microsoft and Sony are done taking any kind of loss on their hardware because as they both expand/grow outward, they know that the majority of their revenue will come from their software, platform and eco-system as opposed to the single console box.

Gaming as always been an expensive hobby/luxury and will only get more expensive as opposed to cheaper and while I agree with Layden especially with the graphical parts, companies always try to push graphics because it's the easiest aspect of a game to the showcase and also the most difficult to hide. But we'll see how it all plays out over the years to come.

If Sony releases a $800 console, then it's all over LOL! Momentum will be killed and console gaming will be dead forever.

 

[Sethbacca]

“It’s time for a real hard reset on the business model, a hard reset on what it is to be a video game,” he said. “It’s not 80 hours, it’s not 90 hours, but if it is that’s a whole different category.”

I mean, the consensus seems to be that most of us don't want these 80-100 hour bloated experiences anyway. Who the fuck has the time for this other than kids and adults without kids or jobs? Not gonna say these games shouldn't exist because there's obviously a market for everything, but I'll take quality over duration every single time.

 

[chokotoureiki]

While getting whooped by the least powerful console at that time. His main point was that graphics doesn't mean anything and the cost is getting higher. It's all about experiences and sony/ms would eventually hit a wall.

No neither MS or Sony didn't get whooped. What ppl conveniently forget was that the Wii's legacy was abruptly cut short at the end of its lifespan and faded into irrelevance the moment grandma's and casual gamers moved onto mobile games on the phone. Meanwhile, HD has remained prevalent with each generation continually improving upon the tech, while motion controls have taken a back seat. Look at the most popular games none of which utilize motion controls...even Mario Kart 8 which someone pointed out earlier selling 50 million copies isnt innovative. Yes it features motion controls, but it doesn't replace traditional controls which was what the Wii was trying to do. Even to this day, everyone still uses traditional controls. The Wii's legacy is DEAD, while the PS3 and 360s pursuit of improving HD tech remains an ever growing constant.

I've never understood this obsession with who outsold whom....I mean it's like bragging about climbing Mt Everest. Yeah, you made it to the top but at the end of the day no one cares.

 

[chokotoureiki]

The problem is that while the revenue would still be there for Microsoft and Sony, the profits wouldn't be and that's what their shareholders and investors want. The main issue isn't now though, it's long term. While I can see PS5 selling 100m+ consoles before PS6 releases, next generation could be a different story depending on how much the console will be at launch.

Actually both Sony and MS has been profitable, with PS5 profits being their highest ever yet and the acquisition of Activsion-Blizzard, respectively.

PS5 generated $10 billion in profit

MS Activision-Blizzard acquisition made $88 billion in profit

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The PS6 should launch at $499 with a planned 50 or 100 dollar price cut 1 - 2 years after release. Keep that thing cheap.

 

[peter42O]

If Sony releases a $800 console, then it's all over LOL! Momentum will be killed and console gaming will be dead forever.

I don't think this would happen. They just wouldn't hit the 120m mark. More like 80-85m. But the portable handheld would make up the difference so it wouldn't really matter all that much.

 

[SkylineRKR]

No neither MS or Sony didn't get whooped. What ppl conveniently forget was that the Wii's legacy was abruptly cut short at the end of its lifespan and faded into irrelevance the moment grandma's and casual gamers moved onto mobile games on the phone. Meanwhile, HD has remained prevalent with each generation continually improving upon the tech, while motion controls have taken a back seat. Look at the most popular games none of which utilize motion controls...even Mario Kart 8 which someone pointed out earlier selling 50 million copies isnt innovative. Yes it features motion controls, but it doesn't replace traditional controls which was what the Wii was trying to do. Even to this day, everyone still uses traditional controls. The Wii's legacy is DEAD, while the PS3 and 360s pursuit of improving HD tech remains an ever growing constant.

I've never understood this obsession with who outsold whom....I mean it's like bragging about climbing Mt Everest. Yeah, you made it to the top but at the end of the day no one cares.

The Wii legacy was so bad that the Wii U straight up bombed. Nintendo used the same name and it was dead on arrival.

I think there isn't a succesful console that fell off a cliff so hard as the Wii did. Was it by 2011 or so? The console was completely dead. I saw it in the person left and right, all those Wiis standing next to the TV, they were gone or put in the drawer. And the worst, those consumers didn't even consider a Wii U, and didn't consider an Xbox or Playstation. They didn't stick with console gaming but rather moved on to idk what, tablets and phones probably. And now TikTok.

And don't forget the amount of software bombs the Wii had despite its userbase. Some games sold like cake, they were the ones that every owner bought. But the rest, and some very good efforts actually, was just ignored. It was incredibly hard to sell software for the Wii if it wasn't some very specific thing from Nintendo itself. Even Mario Galaxy 2 'only' sold 7 million. Which is laughable considering its quality and name, and the Wii userbase. This game would sell 25+ million if was a premier release on Switch.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I agree with you, but I'm not certain that's what he is saying. He is referencing "hardware development" which I think is odd considering PS5 Pro is set to introduce ML components that have been fantastic on the PC side of things. Those are real hardware enhancements that shouldn't be overlooked.

TBF, PSSR is going to be in its first iteration for PS5 Pro, and while it's going to produce some great results, I don't think it necessarily addresses issues with game development earlier in the pipeline. Like for example, the 3D modelers still have to make very high-poly meshes for all objects, that takes a lot of time and a lot of people. High-definition textures still have to be made, LODs still have to be manually handled by the game code etc.

That's the stuff I'd like to see future tech focus on addressing, or additionally, having ways to detect appropriate visual filters on per-object bases for a framebuffer and then generating those filters with AI-accelerated hardware & processes. More specialized hardware for offloading these things from devs and generic compute, to save on needing prohibitively more expensive CPUs, and most importantly to cut down on total development times.

Though it doesn't (and likely wouldn't) be just hardware helping there. Throw in software-driven solutions that can scale their own way across platforms, complementing hardware-driven approaches or substituting them in some ways. Because if history's shown anything, if we're just talking between Sony & Microsoft, the former would probably prefer a more hardware-driven approach while the latter a more software-driven one.

But hey a lot of this could be a pipe dream for systems coming 2-4 years from now. I'll be hoping as much comes to fruition as possible regardless.

Welcome to the industries new narrative: "We want to serve you, our players, in the best way we possible can, but we need to work at this from both the provider and consumer level at the same time. We understand that players wants/expectations from games has increased and players need to understand the measures developers need to take to surpass those expectations!"

But don't worry....AI will take care of those "unsustainable costs" and give you the experience you want!
Pressing a button on your controller, telling your platform you want to fight enemies that look like some video you watched on TikTok, have a quick banter with your console adjusting "your new creation" and BAM....its magically there for you....and then its there for everyone because you are helping to make the content for the developers now. One huge happy family focused on making quality content for the players!

FWIW I have many qualms about AI being used unethically in general, in fact we're seeing that right now where livelihoods are at stakes, financially or otherwise. The industry's gonna have to self-regulate before governments decide to step in and regulate for them.

All the same, AI isn't going anywhere. So we might as well focus on how it can be useful in boosting productivity of game development and lowering costs, even if the concerns are worth addressing too.

I recall reading comments here that suggested a switch to PC. These comments stick out to me because I’m still a day 1 console gamer. I swear I’ve seen it more than just a handful of times. Microsoft lost the people who were mainly XBO because the PS4 did so well. People got angry at Sony for X or Y reasons this gen and switched to PC. Heighten that feeling when consoles launch around the cost of a decent PC. I don’t follow that logic, but I know it exists.

You aren't wrong; MS did lose a lot of people late into XBO gen to PS4...but they also lost a lot to PC. This gen, they have been primarily losing Xbox players to PC, specifically Steam, because of the release strategy they've been doing since 2020 with Day 1 Windows & Steam support....the latter is the one that helped cause a big change.

I'd say XBS sales are only as decent as they are, because of the pandemic, lockdowns, and low supply of both PS5 and PS4 during 2021-late 2022. Also the Zenimax acquisition probably did help bolster Xbox sales at least early on in 2021. Take those away and leave everything else the same, and Xbox would be lucky to be at 20 million right now, maybe even less than that.

SIE have been losing some people to PC this gen some a good number of the same reasons Microsoft did, and I don't think the price increases have helped any. But SIE's situation isn't as bad as Microsoft's. Even so, in some places like Japan, you can clearly see that a shift has been happening since PC market share's grown like 3x in that market over the past 4 years while consoles have stagnated, and if Switch is dominating so well while Xbox just...exists?....then what system's seeing market share drops? It's PlayStation.

That said I think Japan is somewhat of an outlier. "Somewhat" because sales seemingly have slowed down faster than anticipated in several parts of Europe, so SIE have been doing sales promotions on and off throughout the year in that territory to combat it. As-is though, I don't think PlayStation will see anywhere near the bleed to PC that Xbox has suffered, but I think it depends on things staying as-is.

Like, if they start pushing Day 1 for their big games on Steam, there might be a bigger effect in bleed of users to PC than we've been seeing. And it may not necessarily affect PS5 too much in unit sales (maybe a bit more in subscription & software sales depending on things), but PS6 would reflect those kind of choices much more clearly. Even PS5 Pro sales might, it all really depends.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

I don't think there's anything surprising or particularly novel about this.

Console warz are fuckin' boring now, man.

Suddenly Handhelds, VR, and even PC looks more interesting and fun. Diminishing returns in full power now.

 

[chokotoureiki]

The Wii legacy was so bad that the Wii U straight up bombed. Nintendo used the same name and it was dead on arrival.

I think there isn't a succesful console that fell off a cliff so hard as the Wii did. Was it by 2011 or so? The console was completely dead. I saw it in the person left and right, all those Wiis standing next to the TV, they were gone or put in the drawer. And the worst, those consumers didn't even consider a Wii U, and didn't consider an Xbox or Playstation. They didn't stick with console gaming but rather moved on to idk what, tablets and phones probably. And now TikTok.

And don't forget the amount of software bombs the Wii had despite its userbase. Some games sold like cake, they were the ones that every owner bought. But the rest, and some very good efforts actually, was just ignored. It was incredibly hard to sell software for the Wii if it wasn't some very specific thing from Nintendo itself. Even Mario Galaxy 2 'only' sold 7 million. Which is laughable considering its quality and name, and the Wii userbase. This game would sell 25+ million if was a premier release on Switch.

Yeah, Wii sales pretty much sunk like a rock around that time....2011 while PS360 continued to sell until 2016ish. 80 mil may be less than 101 mil, but it's not an epically massive difference, like PS2 vs GCN/Xbox (155 mil vs 20+ mil)

Most 3rd party devs still made games exclusively for PS360. If the Wii was so great with its lack of power, why didn't Rockstar make GTA exclusive for it the way they did for PS2 back in its heyday? Given that GTA is a mega monster seller, logically it would make sense to release your power sellers onto which ever platform has the biggest userbase in order to reap the max potential gains.

Its a foregone conclusion. You could have the biggest userbase in the world, but if your games won't sell on it, then that's like commiting financial suicide.

There's a reason why games like Wukong, FF16, the mainline RE series, RDR2, GTA6 will never be released on the Switch, is bc their userbase doesn't care about those games. They won't sell, and the hardware is too weak to support games of that scale and magnitude.

 

[chokotoureiki]

2004.. didnt age well

Yeah, and he also didn't believe an online paid subscription service would take off. Part of his job is PR, of course he's going to say things to prop up his console, even if it's hyperbole.

He was wrong about downplaying the importance of HD. Now we're at the point where 4k is becoming a thing and even 8k may happen.

 

[mckmas8808]

I don't think this would happen. They just wouldn't hit the 120m mark. More like 80-85m. But the portable handheld would make up the difference so it wouldn't really matter all that much.

Yeah but that handheld would hold back anything the "console" could do software wise.

 

[Rat Rage]

He's stating water is wet after someone threw him into the ocean. He's not wrong, but many enthusiastic gaming nerds saw this coming years ago. It makes you realize how utterly use- and clueless some former high-paying con-ma... *erm* CEO's are. But not only former ones. In fact, Sony's current day CEO's are just as clue- and useless. Contrast that with some major Nintendo CEO's current day an from the past, you clearly see, while they've had their fair share of bad decision making, they've never NOT understood what the gaming industry is fundamentally all about, and even when they were ridiculued by many and being thrown buzzwords like "underpowered", "gimmick", "kiddy-style", never crumbled and maintained their broader understanding. All of this will pay out massively... once the Switch 2 hits.

 

[peter42O]

Yeah but that handheld would hold back anything the "console" could do software wise.

That would depend on how it's built. In my mind, if the portable has the respective equivalent of the same CPU as the console and the same amount of RAM but a weaker GPU and can output at native 1080p/HDR/60fps on a crisp and clear 10 inch OLED screen, the only loss would be the graphics which wouldn't be needed due to the much smaller screen and the main selling point of it would be that it's for "on the go" as supposed to at home sitting on your couch in front of the TV. I will say that it should be digital and streaming capable. Include the same SSD but 1TB since game files would be smaller due to the lesser graphics, no ray tracing, etc.

 

[RPSleon]

“If you’re playing your game and sunlight is coming through your window onto your TV, you’re not seeing any ray tracing. It has to be super optimal… you have to have an 8K monitor in a dark room to see these things."

What absolute nonsense.

 

[SportsFan581]

“If you’re playing your game and sunlight is coming through your window onto your TV, you’re not seeing any ray tracing. It has to be super optimal… you have to have an 8K monitor in a dark room to see these things."

What absolute nonsense.

Any time he does an interview there is like one or two lines in there that are just completely ridiculous. Helps drive clicks I guess.

 

[Generic]

Actually both Sony and MS has been profitable, with PS5 profits being their highest ever yet and the acquisition of Activsion-Blizzard, respectively.

PS5 generated $10 billion in profit

MS Activision-Blizzard acquisition made $88 billion in profit

And yet they can't afford price drops because...?

 

[chokotoureiki]

And yet they can't afford price drops because...?

Die shrinks are quite expensive to implement. They'd be operating at a loss, which wouldn't be smart. So they're focusing on increasing value and user engagement which is paying off very well. They actually make way more money doing that vs price cuts.

 

[Generic]

Die shrinks are quite expensive to implement. They'd be operating at a loss, which wouldn't be smart. So they're focusing on increasing value and user engagement which is paying off very well. They actually make way more money doing that vs price cuts.

"So they're focusing on increasing value and user engagement which is paying off very well."

I see no increasing value.

 

[chokotoureiki]

"So they're focusing on increasing value and user engagement which is paying off very well."

I see no increasing value.

Explain. Gameplay time and retention among users has actually improved substantially over the PS4.

 

[awwr999999]

The industry has really stopped prioritizing game design. Visual clarity, visual and audio cues, physics, smarter AI, and new gameplay ideas have massively declined after the PS3 era.

90% of PS3 games are rendered at ~720p and PS3 development time and cost were already unsustainable.
Game dev costs have doubled every generation and the sweet spot is still PS2 with games taking about 1 year.

If Sony releases a $800 console, then it's all over LOL! Momentum will be killed and console gaming will be dead forever.

Sony needs a multi-platform, dual console approach to maintain momentum for the long haul.
Both consoles would have upgraded EE+GS combo chips that form the common digital-only(new releases) PS2d platform. PS2d games are bought from PSN and stored on a built-in HDD.
Both consoles would have full HW PS1 and PS2 disc BC while digital-only PS1/2 games provide full DualSense feedback without the disc read and load times.
Tier A - an PS2d console that's cheap enough for people everywhere to enjoy. Includes a wired DualShock2 and has an optional wired DualSense and wireless DualSense upgrade.
Tier B - a digital-only PS5 with PS2d HW and a built-in DVD player for PS1/PS2 disc BC. Includes a wireless DualSense but has ports for optional wired (DS2/DualSense) controllers.

The x86 platform would have a slower flow of 4k Native and multi-platform PC games while the PS2d platform would have less expensive games dropping much more frequently.
Studios could ship the same game on both x86 PS and PS2 to get more sales than would be possible on any other console while remaining PlayStation Exclusives.
E.g., Konami would ship SH2 remaster on the x86 PS and SH2 on the PS2d. PS2 SH2 would have updated controller options and full DualSense feedback.
Lots of people would buy both games and seeing the sales numbers across both platforms would be a game changer.
Konami could add different bonus content and bonus features to both games that only unlock when you've bought both SH2 games.
Sony would quickly become the King of Exclusives and the momentum would be sustainable.

 

[Generic]

Explain. Gameplay time and retention among users has actually improved substantially over the PS4.

I mean no increasing value for consumers. Everything is costing more but the quality is the same (or worse)

 

[chokotoureiki]

I mean no increasing value for consumers. Everything is costing more but the quality is the same (or worse)

Check the link in my previous post. My point still stands. Lots of PS5 gamers are actually spending more time on their consoles.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Exes of company without consoles to sell talks about console sales being in decline.

Next you’ll tell me he once tried to sell PlayStation games and talked about how much better they are than the competitions offerings.

 

[mckmas8808]

That would depend on how it's built. In my mind, if the portable has the respective equivalent of the same CPU as the console and the same amount of RAM but a weaker GPU and can output at native 1080p/HDR/60fps on a crisp and clear 10 inch OLED screen, the only loss would be the graphics which wouldn't be needed due to the much smaller screen and the main selling point of it would be that it's for "on the go" as supposed to at home sitting on your couch in front of the TV. I will say that it should be digital and streaming capable. Include the same SSD but 1TB since game files would be smaller due to the lesser graphics, no ray tracing, etc.

But what you are describing would cost at least $700! Does that sound like something that could sell alot of units?

Think about what you just said......

- OLED screen
- 10" screen
- Same CPU and GPU
- Same amount of RAM
- At least 1 TB SSD


THIS IS NUTS!

 

[peter42O]

But what you are describing would cost at least $700! Does that sound like something that could sell alot of units?

Think about what you just said......

- OLED screen
- 10" screen
- Same CPU and GPU
- Same amount of RAM
- At least 1 TB SSD


THIS IS NUTS!

Haha. Probably is nuts but it wouldn't have Ray Tracing or all the other features that the consoles would have. There would be no upscaling and whatnot because it wouldn't be needed. Also, the CPU and RAM wouldn't be exactly the same. It would be the equivalent needed to port and run the games on the handheld without any major issues or complications. The GPU though would be far less capable than what it would be in the consoles.

 

[ArtHands]

And yet they can't afford price drops because...?

Why should they price drop?