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[Briarios]

Yes it is. Antifa isn't an organization. It's a politic.

No, it's a loosely affiliated group that organizes and plans violence. I equate them a lot to Anonymous -- not all parts of the group are always on the same page and just randoms can join in, but it's definitely a group.

Edit: also like Anonymous, it's hard not to sympathize with a lot of their goals -- it's their methods that can be troubling.

 

[Lunar15]

I'm not always going to agree with Antifa's tactics, and I hope to god we can find better ways of dealing with white supremacy, but when white supremacy is what they're attacking, I have a hard time being 100% against them.

When white people can own up to the fact that white supremacy is real and their own ignorance/hatred feeds it, then I guess I can get upset at Antifa. Until then, there's not much choice. My issue is when people use Atifa to be like "see, there's two sides to this!" when nah... there's really not.

 

[ultratruman]

Noah is right, regardless of how you or I may feel personally, most people see the flag waving, mask clad brawlers as another violent group.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

You have no clue of Antifa if you think it simply mean anti-fascist and every non-Nazi is that by default.

Face palm


You motherfuckers don't have any skin in the game, and don't know what Antifa is, clearly.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Most people see BLM and Colin Kaepernick as terrorists so who cares what they think.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Colin Kaepernick proves there is no right way to protest white supremacy in America.

In most part, this isn't even about that. It's about the left's tendency to allow the right to dictate the narrative, time and again, because of an overwhelming desire to seem balanced and fair to all perspectives rather than suspicious of intent. If someone's primary concern is whether or not a member of a protesting group called Antifa punched someone at a recent event and not, say, the group of several men who surrounded a black men and beat him with sticks in Charlottesville, I think perhaps that person might be exhibiting certain biases.

Guaranteed the "mainstream public" weren't happy at the Stonewall riots when a bunch of those awful homosexuals ran out of a bar (can you believe these people) to riot in the streets after smashing up property. It's still the only reason I have equal rights as an American. "You only gave us rights because we gave you riots."

The right's primary strategy for years, rather than changing or moderating their position, has been reframing the discussion of the position on the left. That's why they are pro life, even when they want a mother to die in childbirth. That's why they call being gay a sexual preference. A large part of how they have shifted the country ever further right is by controlling the dialogue so thoroughly that it is impossible to take an even moderate progressive stance without being viewed as extremist. As soon as fake news hit the political discourse by actually literally being about conservative websites that were making up stories that never happened, it was co-opted to mean the mainstream press at large. Now no one on the left really even uses the phrase unironically to refer to the actual news that was fake leading into the election anymore. We've almost entirely stopped talking about it, because the right now owns that conversation.

Reframing the discussion to not be about the white supremacists and Nazis, but whether or not the left might be just as bad, is the same tactic that's worked for them for decades. At this point, what Antifa is in America is largely being defined by the right and their response to it, no matter the actual actions.

Bang on.

 

[Kinitari]

Here's the thing - I can almost see the argument for punching a neonazi. If a dude is throwing up sieg heils and saying jews need to burn, like... I'm not gonna support punching him, but I'm not going to expend effort condemning someone who does.

But there are two problems I've already seen

1. People start applying 'neoNazi' to a broader and broader group. Some go further and say if you're on the right you're supporting NeoNazis. Some go further and say that if you're in the middle, you're basically on the right. Some go further and say that if you're on the left and you don't support punching nazis, you're supporting Nazis. Like... I'm not crazy right, this is bad, right? Especially when violence is apparently a legitimate way to deal with people who are neonazis - when that window broadens, that becomes extremely fucking dangerous

2. Violent elements of Antifa don't only punch neonazis! They smash reporters cameras and fight them, they break shit that belongs to random people who have nothing to do with the protest. They have been known to fight people who just want to listen to controversial speakers, or in at least one case, someone who just looks the part.


How does that not freak some of you out a bit? I don't want anything -near- my political and social ideologies acting that way, I want to thoroughly and empathically condemn these things - and by DOING so, I've been called a moderate/centrist (which is like a slur at this point) or someone who is just in my pacifism, supporting Nazis.

Am I taking crazy pills? This shit is actually bananas.

 

[jtb]

No, it's a loosely affiliated group that organizes and plans violence. I equate them a lot to Anonymous -- not all parts of the group are always on the same page and just randoms can join in, but it's definitely a group.

Edit: also like Anonymous, it's hard not to sympathize with a lot of their goals -- it's their methods that can be troubling.

I'd argue that, like anonymous, the group doesn't actually have any shared goals, only shared tactics.

 

[GoldenCrow]

Its amazing how you proved the point that talking to racists isnt working while trying to prove the opposite. Your dad has seen your friends and has your mom talking to him every day and STILL he has developed racist views.

And yet here you are going ''well if we just talk to racists more they will surely stop being racists!".

My dad traveled for work for the majority of my youth so he would only really see my friends on birthdays or events. My parents don't talk about religion, politics or world view either as that quickly result in huge arguments. My dad had developed racist views way before he met my mum and besides me calling him out on it everything else within his bubble confirms his bias and gets aggressive when it is challenged.

And no I never said talking to racists stops racism as I said the opposite. Education through diverse interaction from a young age prevents it, when views are formed it needs to take something special to challenge and I don't know what that is. It certainly isn't talking or violence as nobody knows what that is the best bet is to minimise/prevent the damage they may cause.

 

[Heroman]

If they have to use violence? Absolutely yes.
There have been many points throughout human history where peaceful protests helped bring great results.


Now don’t get me wrong you certainly have a right to self defense (Which if my limited knowledge of US civil rights protest was mostly used by otherwise peacefull protestors) but if you go out to attack police officers or destroy neighborhoods to further your political beliefs you are not better than islamists or nazis.

What is this?

 

[JustenP88]

Most people see BLM and Colin Kaepernick as terrorists so who cares what they think.

Ding ding ding.

We shouldn't be giving this distraction any liberal legitimacy. We had the same argument about protests in Ferguson and Baltimore which seems kinda fucking quaint right now, in my opinion.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Fox is absolutely using clips of Antifa's more extreme actions to draw parallels with Nazis and terrorists. We should probably not use violence to advance our cause.

The real enemy is far from the streets where these protests and clashes are held. They're in Washington and on Wall Street. The Nazis were weak before these officials galvanized them.

 

[Father_Brain]

I'm not sure what purpose he thinks this message serves other than to be somewhat self-congratulatory for taking the "right" moderate stance. No one who performs these acts will be convinced by the paternalistic tone. All it really seems likely to do is reassure so-called centrists that they were right all along to disdain and distrust these counter-protestors as a whole -- and I guess start a discussion on GAF, but we hardly need prompting for that.

I think you got it exactly right. For much of the center and center-left, seeking validation of their own moral and intellectual superiority is more important than actually winning anything, and people like Noah and Bee have found a very profitable niche catering to that.

 

[JCHandsom]

Colin Kaepernick proves there is no right way to protest white supremacy in America.

In most part, this isn't even about that. It's about the left's tendency to allow the right to dictate the narrative, time and again, because of an overwhelming desire to seem balanced and fair to all perspectives rather than suspicious of intent. If someone's primary concern is whether or not a member of a protesting group called Antifa punched someone at a recent event and not, say, the group of several men who surrounded a black men and beat him with sticks in Charlottesville, I think perhaps that person might be exhibiting certain biases.

Guaranteed the "mainstream public" weren't happy at the Stonewall riots when a bunch of those awful homosexuals ran out of a bar (can you believe these people) to riot in the streets after smashing up property. It's still the only reason I have equal rights as an American. "You only gave us rights because we gave you riots."

The right's primary strategy for years, rather than changing or moderating their position, has been reframing the discussion of the position on the left. That's why they are pro life, even when they want a mother to die in childbirth. That's why they call being gay a sexual preference. A large part of how they have shifted the country ever further right is by controlling the dialogue so thoroughly that it is impossible to take an even moderate progressive stance without being viewed as extremist. As soon as fake news hit the political discourse by actually literally being about conservative websites that were making up stories that never happened, it was co-opted to mean the mainstream press at large. Now no one on the left really even uses the phrase unironically to refer to the actual news that was fake leading into the election anymore. We've almost entirely stopped talking about it, because the right now owns that conversation.

Reframing the discussion to not be about the white supremacists and Nazis, but whether or not the left might be just as bad, is the same tactic that's worked for them for decades. At this point, what Antifa is in America is largely being defined by the right and their response to it, no matter the actual actions.

This is all correct and I am sad

 

[Jeels]

I think GAF is too on the fringes nowadays. Not only is damaging property unacceptable, Noah is right that it will not garner anyone to your cause. Yes fuck racists and Nazis but let's stand up to them. Not random shopowners and property owners.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Fox is absolutely using clips of Antifa's more extreme actions to draw parallels with Nazis and terrorists. We should probably not use violence to advance our cause.

The real enemy is far from the streets where these protests and clashes are held. They're in Washington and on Wall Street. The Nazis were weak before these officials galvanized them.

Did you really just shift to Wall Street is worse than Neo Nazis?

 

[chadtwo]

Here's the thing - I can almost see the argument for punching a neonazi. If a dude is throwing up sieg heils and saying jews need to burn, like... I'm not gonna support punching him, but I'm not going to expend effort condemning someone who does.

But there are two problems I've already seen

1. People start applying 'neoNazi' to a broader and broader group. Some go further and say if you're on the right you're supporting NeoNazis. Some go further and say that if you're in the middle, you're basically on the right. Some go further and say that if you're on the left and you don't support punching nazis, you're supporting Nazis. Like... I'm not crazy right, this is bad, right? Especially when violence is apparently a legitimate way to deal with people who are neonazis - when that window broadens, that becomes extremely fucking dangerous

2. Violent elements of Antifa don't only punch neonazis! They smash reporters cameras and fight them, they break shit that belongs to random people who have nothing to do with the protest. They have been known to fight people who just want to listen to controversial speakers, or in at least one case, someone who just looks the part.


How does that not freak some of you out a bit? I don't want anything -near- my political and social ideologies acting that way, I want to thoroughly and empathically condemn these things - and by DOING so, I've been called a moderate/centrist (which is like a slur at this point) or someone who is just in my pacifism, supporting Nazis.

Am I taking crazy pills? This shit is actually bananas.

I sympathize wholeheartedly with pretty much each of your points.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

It's seems like there's more articles denouncing antics than the nazis and racists.

 

[Imm0rt4l]

It's seems like there's more articles denouncing antics than the nazis and racists.

Feckless liberals for you

Cowards

 

[Lunar15]

It's seems like there's more articles denouncing antics than the nazis and racists.

What bothers me is that most of these are the same people who defend gun rights because they feel they have the right to shoot anyone who threatens them.

Well, I can't think of anything more personally threatening than a group of people advocating for the eradication of an entire race, but god forbid we go punch em. Muslim terrorists? Gear up and take them down! Bomb them! Kill every last one of em!

Violence is all good and fine until it's not, apparently. When it comes to minorities getting threatened, non-violence is the correct and only option, duh. Until someone does a non-violent protest, then they shouldn't do that either.

 

[kirblar]

It's seems like there's more articles denouncing antics than the nazis and racists.

(There aren't.)

 

[tbm24]

What bothers me is that most of these are the same people who defend gun rights because they feel they have the right to shoot anyone who threatens them.

Well, I can't think of anything more personally threatening than a group of people advocating for the eradication of an entire race, but god forbid we go punch em.

Pretty sure the segment that sparked this thread was more focused on the random property damage that comes out of this than the actual punching of neo nazis.

 

[Kinitari]

It's seems like there's more articles denouncing antics than the nazis and racists.

Do you really actually think that, or is it because you think this is the best way to imply that everyone secretly doesn't care about Nazis?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

lol @ so many misquoting or misunderstanding Trevor here.

The problem is that Jon Stewart elevated The Daily Show above just being an act and inspired a whole lot of young people to fight for actual real social justice and equality. Trevor Noah has thrown it back into the bushes of pointless, empty rhetoric. It's hard to stomach.

This is embarrassingly false.

counter-protesting against fascism is legitamate,
counter-protesting against neo-nazis is legitamate..

but it all fals apart when violence and vandalism is used with Black Bloc tactics.

I'm from Montreal and we see these ANTIFA guys yearly.

On one yearly anti-police brutality protest; ANTIFA descended in the downtown core where families brought their kids to the Ice Capades. Their vehicles were smashed just because cars = capitalism and none-sense like that.

all legitamcy falls apart when they smash windows and engage in violence

The problem with Antifa to me isn't so much the use of violence per se, but the fact that they routinely go after the wrong targets. I don't know about this Ice Capades thing, but the way they go after metal concerts, even bands that are totally apolitical, and harass and threaten even concertgoers (some of which are PoC, LGBT, etc.) is absolute bullshit.

La Meute (Quebec' Alt-Right) used it against them when they marched silently (tactically) then ANTIFA engaged them with violence.

the local Quebec media instead focused on ANTIFA's use of violence because violence was used even though La Meute are scum.

La Meute played a PR game "proteste in silence" and drew "sympathy" from average people

Yeah, this is true. They really got played by La Meute. It's sad.

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

Did you really just shift to Wall Street is worse than Neo Nazis?

Not "worse," but far more damaging to our society as a whole.

Neo Nazis have the most abhorrent ideology in the world and are garbage humans, but wield very little power.

Corrupt executives and politicians are not as extreme ideologically (for the most part), but are actively stoking conflict between the lower classes while they siphon off as much wealth from them as possible.

If I had to choose between eliminating a fringe group of bigots or the nearly insurmountable forces that have hijacked America politically and financially for close to half a century... it's an easy choice.

 

[Tain]

zero shock at trevor noah broadcasting a take like this

 

[Conciliator]

1. People start applying 'neoNazi' to a broader and broader group. Some go further and say if you're on the right you're supporting NeoNazis. Some go further and say that if you're in the middle, you're basically on the right. Some go further and say that if you're on the left and you don't support punching nazis, you're supporting Nazis. Like... I'm not crazy right, this is bad, right? Especially when violence is apparently a legitimate way to deal with people who are neonazis - when that window broadens, that becomes extremely fucking dangerous

2. Violent elements of Antifa don't only punch neonazis! They smash reporters cameras and fight them, they break shit that belongs to random people who have nothing to do with the protest. They have been known to fight people who just want to listen to controversial speakers, or in at least one case, someone who just looks the part

you know who else asked these exact questions?

Hitler.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Do you really actually think that, or is it because you think this is the best way to imply that everyone secretly doesn't care about Nazis?

They've shown that they openly don't care about nazis.

 

[gutter_trash]

I think GAF is too on the fringes nowadays. Not only is damaging property unacceptable, Noah is right that it will not garner anyone to your cause. Yes fuck racists and Nazis but let's stand up to them. Not random shopowners and property owners.

this, if anyone strays from any extreme they then get labeled as a "moderate" as a derogatory no matter the nuance.

ANITFA's problem is that they are not just anti-fascist but also anti-capitalist. They enter into Anarchist territory which labels vanilla Left people and Center-Left people as Fascists just because they are not Left enough

 

[Kyzer]

Lol @ people who dont want to destroy random property being "moderates"

 

[Kinitari]

They've shown that they openly don't care about nazis.

Who's they?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Who's they?

Whoever compares nazis and antifa as being the same.

 

[Kinitari]

Whoever compares nazis and antifa as being the same.

Oh, so like fox news people. Cool.

 

[Lunar15]

Pretty sure the segment that sparked this thread was more focused on the random property damage that comes out of this than the actual punching of neo nazis.

I guess I'm more just venting about the attitude in general. As I said before, I'm not happy with all Antifa antics, I'm just mad that people are succussfully shifting focus away from the fact that we're having white supremacy rallies in broad daylight. They've even got liberals worrying about Antifa. Like, holy shit world: we need to get the whole concept that there's racial superiority out of the way before we start internal critiques about vigilante justice.

It gives people an out.

 

[djplaeskool]

I watch this, and well, he's not wrong at all.
Perception is reality, and right-leaning media have never ceased to jump at the posibility of shaping the perception of groups like BLM or Antifa. Regardless of the noblest aims, be prepared to be demonized for the means, because no, you're not sending a coherent message by smashing windows.
There's a lot of killing the messenger in this thread.

 

[legacyzero]

I think GAF is too on the fringes nowadays. Not only is damaging property unacceptable, Noah is right that it will not garner anyone to your cause. Yes fuck racists and Nazis but let's stand up to them. Not random shopowners and property owners.

I agree with this. I mean sure, if a mother fucker is gonna stand in your face and yell "Jews will not replace us", yeah- they need to catch a right hook. But the media, fellow counter-protesters, businesses, etc, need to be left alone.

They need to aim that outrage and counter-protest in the right direction and keep it there.

Also, Noam Chomsky spoke about this too: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ight-wing-anti-fascist-alt-left-a7906406.html

"As for Antifa, it's a minuscule fringe of the Left, just as its predecessors were," the linguist and political philosopher told the Washington Examiner. "It's a major gift to the right, including the militant right, who are exuberant."

"What they do is often wrong in principle – like blocking talks – and [the movement] is generally self-destructive," the 88-year-old told the conservative paper.

He added: "When confrontation shifts to the arena of violence, it's the toughest and most brutal who win – and we know who that is. That's quite apart from the opportunity costs – the loss of the opportunity for education, organising, and serious and constructive activism."

 

[jtb]

I guess I'm more just venting about the attitude in general. As I said before, I'm not happy with all Antifa antics, I'm just mad that people are succussfully shifting focus away from the fact that we're having white supremacy rallies in broad daylight. They've even got liberals worrying about Antifa. Like, holy shit world: we need to get the whole concept that there's racial superiority out of the way before we start internal critiques about vigilante justice.

No one disagrees about that concept, though. Seems to me that the "how" is very important in achieving that goal.

Not all tactics have the same effectiveness.

 

[gutter_trash]

it's a Public Relations game too,
if you want the cause the grow, you need to be accessible.

if a Fringe Group goes Fuck Capitalism, Fuck Banks, Fuck Establishment, then they will be marginalized as a Fringe Group which ANTIFA is internationally as an Anarchist group

 

[Tain]

i guess the solution is to never actually tangibly confront nazis ever

let them get emboldened and i guess murder people with cars

 

[hydragonwarrior]

His pacifist ass bought into the both sides bullshit.

 

[Lunar15]

No one disagrees about that concept, though. Seems to me that the "how" is very important in achieving that goal.

Not all tactics have the same effectiveness.

I used to think like this but I'm running out of ideas for what's effective.

 

[Kinitari]

I guess I'm more just venting about the attitude in general. As I said before, I'm not happy with all Antifa antics, I'm just mad that people are succussfully shifting focus away from the fact that we're having white supremacy rallies in broad daylight. They've even got liberals worrying about Antifa. Like, holy shit world: we need to get the whole concept that there's racial superiority out of the way before we start internal critiques about vigilante justice.

It gives people an out.

i guess the solution is to never confront nazis ever

let them get emboldened and i guess murder people with cars

Maybe we, as a collective left, can confront Nazis without smashing up parked cars. Maybe we can do it while simultaneously condemning violence? Especially violence against journalists and randoms?

 

[Heroman]

I think GAF is too on the fringes nowadays. Not only is damaging property unacceptable, Noah is right that it will not garner anyone to your cause. Yes fuck racists and Nazis but let's stand up to them. Not random shopowners and property owners.

Eh, it a is a social political movement with 10,000s people of course it's going to be people breaking s*** of course it going to happen , that is what people do.

 

[Kyzer]

Not everything is "both sides". Criticizing something is not the same as saying its the same as Nazis.

 

[ZealousD]

I think you got it exactly right. For much of the center and center-left, seeking validation of their own moral and intellectual superiority is more important than actually winning anything, and people like Noah and Bee have found a very profitable niche catering to that.

Bullshit. Noah's entire argument was that antifa violence is counter productive.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Trevor: "There are some people, like at Fox News, who will perceive Antifa as being extremist and bad"
Some gaffers: "Trevor is engaging into "both sides" bullshit!!!"

SMH

Not everything is "both sides". Criticizing something is not the same as saying its the same as Nazis.

That too. Hell I've criticized Antifa earlier, but I'm not saying they're the same as nazis, FFS.

 

[Nafai1123]

Maybe we, as a collective left, can confront Nazis without smashing up parked cars. Maybe we can do it while simultaneously condemning violence? Especially violence against journalists and randoms?

Let's film people getting beat up by Nazis with our phones. That's much "braver" than actually stopping them.

 

[jtb]

Let's film people getting beat up by Nazis with our phones. That's much "braver" than actually stopping them.

You draw no distinction between self-defense and other forms of violence?

 

[RangerX]

As someone very much on the left I sympathize with their aim but groups like antifa ultimately end up hurting us. Smashing shit up isn't going to build support.

 

[boiled goose]

Seems to me he has a stance against violence. Answering the neo nazi violence with more violence is .... wrong.

You can use violence and not be fucking isis.
See ww2.

The equivocation to a group that beheads people on video, commits terrorism, and throws gays off buildings is monumentally stupid.

Noah has always striked me a bit as a "both sides" type of guy. This confirms it. No fucking insight and nuance to offer.