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[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

i guess the solution is to never actually tangibly confront nazis ever

let them get emboldened and i guess murder people with cars

"Neo-Nazis" should be treated the same as any other terrorist: they suck but they are NOT a reason to upend our society, our norms, or our values. We don't need extreme authoritarian policing or vigilante justice to deal with either Islamists or Neo-Nazis.

 

[ZealousD]

Noah was literally born a crime in apartheid South Africa and people are acting like he tolerates Neo-Nazis.

Trump has made people go fucking crazy.

 

[Kyzer]

You can use violence and not be fucking isis.
See ww2.

The equivocation to a group that beheads people on video, commits terrorism, and throws gays off buildings is monumentally stupid.

It was a -joke- ABOUT PEOPLES PERCEPTION OF ANTIFA. "Vegan Isis" is exactly what some dumbasses on the right think

 

[Lunar15]

Maybe we, as a collective left, can confront Nazis without smashing up parked cars. Maybe we can do it while simultaneously condemning violence? Especially violence against journalists and randoms?

I completely understand your viewpoint. I also completely understand the idea that antifa antics are counter productive in that they cause people to have the very discussions we're having right now rather than rallying behind the idea of eliminating white supremacist ideals.

But when the alternative situation is that a football player takes a knee at a football game and people flip the fuck out, I'm honestly running out of options. I'm slowly beginning to feel that there is no "best way" to win hearts and minds.

 

[ZealousD]

You can use violence and not be fucking isis.
See ww2.

The equivocation to a group that beheads people on video, commits terrorism, and throws gays off buildings is monumentally stupid.

Noah has always striked me a bit as a "both sides" type of guy. This confirms it. No fucking insight and nuance to offer.

He didn't equivocate.

He said people WOULD equivocate.

He had nuance. You just couldn't see it.

 

[Nafai1123]

You draw no distinction between self-defense and other forms of violence?

Defending others isn't self-defense.

I agree destruction of private property is counter-productive, but I'm not falling for the right-wing tactic of labelling everyone in a group the same. Thats how we get people labelling BLM as a violent terrorist organization.

The way I see it, Antifa is the countries auto-immune response to an infection. It can hurt, it doesn't always do the right thing, but it's necessary to fight the infection.

 

[Reckheim]

Maybe we, as a collective left, can confront Nazis without smashing up parked cars. Maybe we can do it while simultaneously condemning violence? Especially violence against journalists and randoms?

Maybe, however when you have an organised group like Antifa, you're gonna get randoms (that could care less about the cause) causing shit just cause they can.

Now if individuals were actually held accountable for property damage during these protests maybe the movement would be looked on so negatively. (they would have to get rid of the whole cover your face look they are going for)

 

[Taiser]

Antifa Execution Video (NSFW)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my-vY6Ux6lE

 

[djplaeskool]

The equivocation to a group that beheads people on video, commits terrorism, and throws gays off buildings is monumentally stupid.

Noah has always striked me a bit as a "both sides" type of guy. This confirms it. No fucking insight and nuance to offer.

That's entire point of this segment.
Noah is pointing out that when you show up in public wearing all black covering everything but your eyes and engaging in physical confrontation and/or the destruction of property, Fox News is going to equate you to a legitimate terrorist organization.

This isn't hard, people.

 

[Jobbs]

It was a -joke- ABOUT PEOPLES PERCEPTION OF ANTIFA. "Vegan Isis"

No one seems to have watched the video and it's such a hilarious waste of time seeing reply after reply where people are arguing against an equivalency that no one claimed.

I watched it as it aired and thought little of it. He was making jokes and they brought up a picture of Antifa in full garb with facemasks and made the joke that people (not Trevor, but a certain segment of the American populace) view this as vegan isis (which is a joke).

 

[JustenP88]

Trevor: "There are some people, like at Fox News, who will perceive Antifa as being extremist and bad"
Some gaffers: "Trevor is engaging into "both sides" bullshit!!!"

Wtf do you think Trevor's point that conservatives are going to shit on the left is illuminating or something? We know that, it's part of the counterpoint.

They did this in Ferguson, they did it in Baltimore. They're going to do it no matter what. All this "oh no antifa" stuff is just noise that helps keep the conservative idea that the real problem is leftist intolerance and violence afloat.

It's not a conversation worth having. You can't have political protest without fringe fuckery. It would be nice if we lived in that world, but we don't.

 

[Heroman]

I pretty sure it is impossible to have a social political movement with some breaking shit especially on the scale of this moment.

 

[Lunar15]

That's entire point of this segment.
Noah is pointing out that when you show up in public wearing all black covering everything but your eyes and engaging in physical confrontation and/or the destruction of property, Fox News is going to equate you to a legitimate terrorist organization.

This isn't hard, people.

I think the other point, however, is that why do we care so much about what fox news thinks when they won't even accept peaceful movements as legitimate?

 

[jimmypython]

Wow @ so many "if you don't like violence from anti fascist cause you are a nazi sympathizer" comments

Hope GAF doesn't represent the general public.

 

[Tain]

"Neo-Nazis" should be treated the same as any other terrorist: they suck but they are NOT a reason to upend our society, our norms, or our values. We don't need extreme authoritarian policing or vigilante justice to deal with either Islamists or Neo-Nazis.

how many systemic failures does it take before we realize that keeping anti-fascist action 100% within the confines of law (as currently defined and enacted) is exactly what allows fascism to spread?

 

[jtb]

Defending others isn't self-defense.

I agree destruction of private property is counter-productive, but I'm not falling for the right-wing tactic of labelling everyone in a group the same. Thats how we get people labelling BLM as a violent terrorist organization.

The way I see it, Antifa is the countries auto-immune response to an infection. It can hurt, it doesn't always do the right thing, but it's necessary to fight the infection.

That's drawing a distinction without a difference. Defense of others, self-defense are largely treated the same in common law

Defense of others, self-defense = good

Preemptive violence against people, looting, etc. = bad

I don't think that's a terribly controversial stance to take and, frankly, it's one that antifa largely follows anyways.

 

[theignoramus]

That's entire point of this segment.
Noah is pointing out that when you show up in public wearing all black covering everything but your eyes and engaging in physical confrontation and/or the destruction of property, Fox News is going to equate you to a legitimate terrorist organization.

This isn't hard, people.

Antifa doesn't care about the brand of respectability politics Noah is trying to appeal to.

 

[KernelPanic]

Trevor is correct but taking the high road has never worked with these people.

They have an agenda and creating a false equivalence between neo-Nazis and Antifa works to their advantage. He's making the mistake that these are rational people, they will do anything to achieve their objective.

I'm not to promote violence but dealing with irrational people will (sooner or later) invoke an irrational response.

 

[aeolist]

Fox is absolutely using clips of Antifa's more extreme actions to draw parallels with Nazis and terrorists. We should probably not use violence to advance our cause.

The real enemy is far from the streets where these protests and clashes are held. They're in Washington and on Wall Street. The Nazis were weak before these officials galvanized them.

👏 someone👏 watching 👏fox 👏is 👏 already 👏the 👏enemy

 

[djplaeskool]

I think the other point, however, is that why do we care so much about what fox news thinks when they won't even accept peaceful movements as legitimate?

Unfortunately we have a head of state that watches it habitually. It's something that is difficult to just brush off.

 

[Scrooged]

Wow @ so many "if you don't like violence from anti fascist cause you are a nazi sympathizer" comments

Hope GAF doesn't represent the general public.

It doesn't. Thank god.

 

[Nafai1123]

That's drawing a distinction without a difference. Defense of others, self-defense are largely treated the same in common law

Defense of others, self-defense = good

Preemptive violence against people, looting, etc. = bad

I don't think that's a terribly controversial stance to take and, frankly, it's one that antifa largely follows anyways.

We'll then I agree.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

I'm sorry but I can't feel that bad if a window gets smashed when you have nazis marching and actually killing people.

 

[Ville Pukema]

I think it is more a fallacy of reduction than strawman. Anti-fa is ONE way to actively oppose nazis. if you aren't taking some active action whether it is protesting, fund raising for opposing groups, etc. than you are being tolents. Not everyone has to punch nazis but punching nazis is one way to be in active opposition of their ideas.

Yes, and not supporting antifa doesn't mean you cant support other groups against nazies. Even being hard against antifa and their violent tactics doesn't mean you cant support other forms of opposition to nazies. For some really strange reason this is too much thinking for some, on this very forum.

Either you punch nazi's until they do not dare show their faces anymore, or you tolerate them. You cant have your cake and eat it as well.

What could go wrong? Lets just have masked black blocks patrol all cities and towns, without any accountability to law, beating whoever they think is nazi and whenever they like it. If this does not sound good to someone he/she is a nazi and we should beat the fuck out of him too. In no time there is not single nazi on US of A soil.


Lets not forget GOP controls the White House, Senate, House, a Supreme Court pick, and most governorships and state houses. They will get our backs if we get in trouble while doing nazi stomping.

 

[stupei]

My totally moderate Libertarian coworker thought Trump saying "both sides" was perfectly fine because "he was talking about Antifa." He said that in Charlottesville, the counter protestors were "violent too." I think about that a lot now.

Disavow as often as you feel is necessary, I do mean that sincerely, but be precise in your language. Know that when many others refer to the violence of Antifa, they aren't talking about what you are talking about.

Maybe he wants people to realize that having extreme anarchists associating themselves with us is a bad thing, maybe distance us and what we want away from that extremist sect a little? Disavow the bad apples so that it doesnt sully our good fight?

Who came to that conclusion from watching this? Who doesn't already know that smashing windows is not the most productive means of enacting change? How central to the movement has it actually been? Do you think the small minority of people who might go to these events intending to destroy things were watching and swayed?

If we want to have a conversation about how better to moderate and monitor counter protests so that the destruction of property isn't as likely to occur, that's probably a productive conversation. But this idea that the left needs to do some real soul searching when a Starbucks window is smashed is slightly silly.

I mean, I get that the real reason he did this segment is he's a comedy show and talking about what the rest of the news is talking about is their bit. It just seems like such a non-starter that allows people to feel as though they are taking a brave stance by just not breaking shit, I guess.

 

[gutter_trash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SobshMUod0

an interesting video on the accounts in Quebec City.

ANTIFA/ Black bloc attacking a Far-Right man holding a "Patriotes" flag.\

ANTIFA/ Black bloc attacking a Left-Wing Anti-Racist old man who stooled on them because of spray painting.

ANTIFA/ Black bloc attacking cops.

ANTIFA/ Black bloc attacking journos.

 

[jimmypython]

I think the other point, however, is that why do we care so much about what fox news thinks when they won't even accept peaceful movements as legitimate?

Because A LOT of people watch FOX news?

We might not care about what FOX says. But there are so many people out there who only watch FOX news.

 

[entremet]

Vegan Isis is pretty funny.

 

[Bastables]

Noah was literally born a crime in apartheid South Africa and people are acting like he tolerates Neo-Nazis.

Trump has made people go fucking crazy.

Then he should remember that terrorist ANC and MK killed unarmed white farmers, sided with Cuba and Angola against the "legal" apartied government of South Africa in a full scale war. The organisations that fought for Trevor not to be a crime were labeled as terrorist organisations.
Do we know how that panned out for the white supremacists?

 

[LionPride]

He's not wrong when he says people will use anything to discredit your actual goal no matter how positive it may be

 

[gaugebozo]

👏 someone👏 watching 👏fox 👏is 👏 already 👏the 👏enemy

Fox News is the most popular cable news network, and is on all day at many places in public. Gyms, car repair shops, I've even been to a pizza place that always has it on. Most people are absolutely not "woke", do not pay close attention to every event that happens, and are easily swayed by whatever the first narrative they see is. If they catch 15 seconds of a Fox News broadcast while out, they will absolutely think whatever they see. That's how this shit works.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

People need to learn to read. He never said HE does think that ffs.

It's a good thing.

But then you have dumbasses who try to say that anti-fascists are just as bad as literal fascists like Nazis.

Like Noah.

Like..the fuck?

He doesn't say that. He says "people see them like that." Not that he sees them like that.
It's not that hard.

 

[JustenP88]

Wow @ so many "if you don't like violence from anti fascist cause you are a nazi sympathizer" comments

Hope GAF doesn't represent the general public.

I don't think anybody in here is a Nazi sympathizer.

I just think it's weird how many people there are who are interested in reinforcing the cover that the president and conservative media have tried to provide the Nazis.

Again, we can't have political protest without shit getting a little unsavory. If people are going to show up and demonstrate against what's going on in America, it's only gonna be about 5 minutes until someone gives you a reason to clutch your pearls.

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

how many systemic failures does it take before we realize that keeping anti-fascist action 100% within the confines of law (as currently defined and enacted) is exactly what allows fascism to spread?

By that logic Islamic extremism is allowed to spread by a lack of vigilante "punch a Islamist" campaigns... Both Neo-Nazis and even Islamists are citizens like you and me, and before they actually commit a crime the fairness of our society and moral superiority of our liberal values demands we don't make exceptions to their rights out of fear.

 

[Lunar15]

👏 someone👏 watching 👏fox 👏is 👏 already 👏the 👏enemy

I will say this: I used to be conservative. "Fiscally" conservative, I'd call myself. I never liked Fox News, but I definitely had a libertarian streak in college where I was really wrapped up in the idea of the gold standard, fed shenanigans, and fiscal austerity. I also know I was one of those people who'd be like "why is kapernick protesting, that's ridiculous!" and "blue lives matter" etc, thinking it was innoculous while ignoring the actual social inequalities happening behind the scenes, causing these incidents and feeding into the hatred.

But eventually, I did change. Or, rather, I'm in the process of changing. Several events were mind opening for me, but I also had friends that talked with me, and I also became open minded enough to go into things like GAF threads that had a liberal viewpoint that I thought I'd disagree with. Things like Gamergate resonated deeply with me because I'd always held at least slightly feminist ideals and to see people react that way really hit me hard. It made me question my path and how, given a change of a few variables, I could have been like that.

So, I don't know. I was probably the enemy at one point. But I did change. I probably still have some shitty believes that feeds something bad, I don't know. I want to learn more. So I get the idea that sometimes talking to people can cause change. But it's on SUCH a specific and micro level that i'm not quite sure it's something we can just blanket advocate. We have to strike back at hatred when it pops up, especially when it's blatant.

 

[Vermillion]

I know this forum is super hot on Antifa and stuff, but like... This seems as effective as OWS, but violent.

The annoying thing about a lot of movements these days is they require real explanation for people to side with them. "If people would do their research, they'd know Antifa-"

People aren't going to do their research. In fact, they rarely do, contrary to popular belief. All most people see is violence. And to you guys, sure, that's fine and great...

But I don't think it's going to turn out how you hope it will.

 

[Nightbird]

This is one hell of an thread...

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Alright everyone calm the fuck down.

Doesn't sound like he was "railing" against antifa. He was saying people who smash windows aren't having any effect except to put people off from their message.

Not exactly untrue.

 

[djplaeskool]

Fox News is the most popular cable news network, and is on all day at many places in public. Gyms, car repair shops, I've even been to a pizza place that always has it on. Most people are absolutely not "woke", do not pay close attention to every event that happens, and are easily swayed by whatever the first narrative they see is. If they catch 15 seconds of a Fox News broadcast while out, they will absolutely think whatever they see. That's how this shit works.

All it takes is a two minute segment to become a WH talking point, a presidential tweet, and Russian bot hashtag. Like... I comment about this, but I really don't have any idea how to fix this sinister digital proliferation machine at the fingertips of right-leaning media.

 

[Wamb0wneD]

This is one hell of an thread...

Seriously. Any reading comprehension thrown out the window.

 

[Aikidoka]

My totally moderate Libertarian coworker thought Trump saying "both sides" was perfectly fine because "he was talking about Antifa." He said that in Charlottesville, the counter protestors were "violent too." I think about that a lot now.

Disavow as often as you feel is necessary, I do mean that sincerely, but be precise in your language. Know that when many others refer to the violence of Antifa, they aren't talking about what you are talking about.



Who came to that conclusion from watching this? Who doesn't already know that smashing windows is not the most productive means of enacting change? How central to the movement has it actually been? Do you think the small minority of people who might go to these events intending to destroy things were watching and swayed?

If we want to have a conversation about how better to moderate and monitor counter protests so that the destruction of property isn't as likely to occur, that's probably a productive conversation. But this idea that the left needs to do some real soul searching when a Starbucks window is smashed is slightly silly.

I mean, I get that the real reason he did this segment is he's a comedy show and talking about what the rest of the news is talking about is their bit. It just seems like such a non-starter that allows people to feel as though they are taking a brave stance by just not breaking shit, I guess.

I don't see how you can read his comments and think that he was addressing the entirety of the left without being pretty disingenuous. And he was pretty specific in what he was disavowing: breaking property and the guys beating up the white supremacist at a rally.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

I don't understand why he would do this.

 

[Lunar15]

Alright everyone calm the fuck down.

Doesn't sound like he was "railing" against antifa. He was saying people who smash windows aren't having any effect except to put people off from their message.

Not exactly untrue.

I don't disagree with this, but the mental divide I'm having is that the alternative isn't working either?

There's half of me that says "yeah Antifa, you're really fucking up the message", but then the other half of me goes "it wouldn't matter what people did, the crowd that views Antifa as Vegan Isis also believes that BLM is a terrorist group".

 

[Bastables]

By that logic Islamic extremism is allowed to spread by a lack of vigilante "punch a Islamist" campaigns... Both Neo-Nazis and even Islamists are citizens like you and me, and before they actually commit a crime the fairness of our society and moral superiority of our liberal values demands we don't make exceptions to their rights out of fear.

Let's do a mind experiment:

If a bunch of ISIS marched in Charlottesville with black flags, armed with assault rifles chanted death to America how do you think the cops and citizens react to that? Let's include them running over a female counter protester and beat the shit out of some one next to a cop shop, while individuals take gun shots at a elderly Jew.

Is a bunch of citizens calling themselves death to daesh going to spring up in reaction to the authorities not reacting? No the cops likely would have gunned a bunch of protesting Isis down and arrested the rest. There would not be any need to form a citizens anti Isis group because the police and local and federal government would never let any of it eventuate.

 

[gaugebozo]

All it takes is a two minute segment to become a WH talking point, a presidential tweet, and Russian bot hashtag. Like... I comment about this, but I really don't have any idea how to fix this sinister digital proliferation machine at the fingertips of right-leaning media.

You don't need to fix it, just don't play into it.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Not "worse," but far more damaging to our society as a whole.

Neo Nazis have the most abhorrent ideology in the world and are garbage humans, but wield very little power.

Corrupt executives and politicians are not as extreme ideologically (for the most part), but are actively stoking conflict between the lower classes while they siphon off as much wealth from them as possible.

If I had to choose between eliminating a fringe group of bigots or the nearly insurmountable forces that have hijacked America politically and financially for close to half a century... it's an easy choice.

A fringe group that has the backing of the President but ok.

 

[JustenP88]

I don't disagree with this, but the mental divide I'm having is that the alternative isn't working either?

There's half of me that says "yeah Antifa, you're really fucking up the message", but then the other half of me goes "it wouldn't matter what people did, the crowd that views Antifa as Vegan Isis also believes that BLM is a terrorist group".

I've heard far too many "well, maybe she shouldn't have been in the street" hot takes to think that the narrative would be any different if counter protests were all "Kumbaya, my Lord."

 

[Aikidoka]

I don't disagree with this, but the mental divide I'm having is that the alternative isn't working either?

There's half of me that says "yeah Antifa, you're really fucking up the message", but then the other half of me goes "it wouldn't matter what people did, the crowd that views Antifa as Vegan Isis also believes that BLM is a terrorist group".

if it really doesn't matter and people will validate their views regardless, then why not err on the side that is against anarchic violence against people and things? You can disavow these aspects of the antifa movement without disavowing the whole thing.

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

Let's do a mind experiment:

If a bunch of ISIS marched in Charlottesville with black flags, armed with assault rifles chanted death to America how do you think the cops and citizens react to that? Let's include them running over a female counter protester and beat the shit out of some one next to a cop shop, while individuals take gun shots at a elderly Jew.

Is a bunch of citizens calling themselves death to daesh going to spring up in reaction to the authorities not reacting? No the cops likely would have gunned a bunch of protesting Isis down and arrested the rest. There would not be any need to form a citizens anti Isis group because the police and local and federal government would never let any of it eventuate.

If the american police would gun down hundreds of their own citizens, most of whom are unarmed, like the fucking SS, your country is 100% lost and cannot be saved.

 

[Mesoian]

I think the other point, however, is that why do we care so much about what fox news thinks when they won't even accept peaceful movements as legitimate?

Because as shitty as they are and as shitty as it is, their opinion still matters to 35% of this country. I wish it was otherwise, but until it is, it'd be nice if the worst thing most racist news network in the world can say about you is "oh those troublemakers, making me late to work with their nonviolent protests".

As Donald Trump found out, you don't gain anything or get anywhere by saying, "The media? fuck'em!"

Let's do a mind experiment:

If a bunch of ISIS marched in Charlottesville with black flags, armed with assault rifles chanted death to America how do you think the cops and citizens react to that? Let's include them running over a female counter protester and beat the shit out of some one next to a cop shop, while individuals take gun shots at a elderly Jew.

Is a bunch of citizens calling themselves death to daesh going to spring up in reaction to the authorities not reacting? No the cops likely would have gunned a bunch of protesting Isis down and arrested the rest. There would not be any need to form a citizens anti Isis group because the police and local and federal government would never let any of it eventuate.

The problem with this example is the boogieman of ISIS only works when they aren't citizens of this country; It only has power when it is an outside invader that hates everything that you are supposed to stand for. If ISIS were predominately made up of white American citizens, people that you know, work with, went to school with, leave your kids in the care of, you're god damn right the police wouldn't shoot in the same way that the police didn't gun down the KKK in Charlottesville.

Because remember, Nazis were the acceptable group to fight for decades. The ones that no one had qualms about mowing over. And now....not so much apparently.