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[Erevador]

This isn't nuance. This is a wordier way of phrasing blame blame black americans for the systemic issues they face at large aka "black on black crime, they're no saints anyway", etc. Same drivel, but from a self-hating black man this time. I don't fault him. To get to where he did in the system he has, he had to gulp some self-hating kool-aid. The psychological toll is real.

Nobody expects cops to do any of this shit he listed--this shit's no more than victim whining, just about god complex nonsense--which is the exact problems these trigger happy cops exhibit--fear tinged with ego. People just ask that cops do their job-- protect without bias. They have one job. Not the forty he just listed.

What an arrogant, thoughtless post. He was trying to speak with sophistication on these issues, and he has a claim to do so. The police department he's in charge of is a model of non-violent community leadership, which doesn't seem to be exhibiting the kind of issues we're seeing in other major cities, and yet they suffered the impact of blind hatred and violence. His perspective should be heard.

He is a black man in a position of strong leadership who has to make hard decisions and deal with the complexity of reality in his work. To insult him and call him "self-hating" for not perfectly re-enforcing your ideological assumptions... it's a shameful thing to do.

 

[family_guy]

We've had this discussion on GAF about the high percentage of black single-parent homes before, and statistics show that it is absolutely a legitimate issue that should be discussed. Not sure if the policeman chose the right venue, though.

Divorce rate and the rate of cohabitation without marriage has been rising for years. It's a universal issue in the U.S.

 

[dity]

What do struggling schools, scores of broken families, and untreated or poorly treated mental health all have in common?

The answer: they produce people that end up running through the criminal justice system.

This guy's basically saying "we need to fix the things that end up putting all these people through the criminal justice system."

Cops dealing with the fallout of a problem doesn't mean they're being asked or are expected to fix the root cause.

 

[Crocodile]

The messaging on this is all borked. If you want to argue that the laws or politicians or prevalent societal issues are the root cause of some of the ailments plaguing minority communities that's one thing and that's fine. However nobody is asking the police to "fix" schools or mental health issues or single parent homes or whatever. What people are saying is that many of the actions or failure to action of segments of the police have failed to make those issues better or, quite often in fact, made them worse. This does nothing to remove the culpability of the police in some of these issues. We aren't asking you to "fix" shit so much as stop making things worse from time to time.

Also, LOL at the protest shade. As if protests (though you need other avenues of action as well) haven't been a useful political tactic since time began. You can protest AND do other stuff as well.

 

[dumbo]

What do struggling schools, scores of broken families, and untreated or poorly treated mental health all have in common?
The answer: they produce people that end up running through the criminal justice system.
This guy's basically saying "we need to fix the things that end up putting all these people through the criminal justice system."

Yes, I think the 'solve' was meant to be 'resolve'.

The only obvious missing problem is 'guns', but it's Texas - so I guess he can't mention that.

 

[Erevador]

Is that a legit statistic?

Is that 70% figure true? Holy shit if so.

Yes.

 

[Sotha_Sil]

Is that 70% figure true? Holy shit if so.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

"stop murdering black men"

"you're asking too much of us"

that's what I read.

though Dallas is also ahead of the curve on this one, from all reports I've read about them. They're something of an exception along with Atlanta PD.

 

[lenovox1]

He seems to be saying that protests do nothing positive for communities and his lone solution is for black men to become cops to take care of their community. As if there's nothing remotely wrong with America's policing system currently.

The Dallas Police Department was in full support of the BLM protest where his officers were killed, so that isn't his position.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Uh, yeah? If you give officers the resources needed to do their jobs well - hey, there's an increased chance of them doing their jobs well! That means safer officers and safer civilians.

What resources are the cops lacking that makes them shoot unarmed citizens dead? Or shoot legally armed citizens dead before they can even provide their ID? Or choke them out for selling loose ciggs?

Let's not lose sight of what people are so upset with the police for. This has been going on for a long time.

Did you just ignore the rest of my post highlighting the fact that he's fired over 70 officers and put in new policies that have reduced the use of force and increased transparency..?

Not ignoring it at all. But it's just a step out of the many the rest of the nation needs to take. Instead of trying to pull the "single mothers" bullshit how about lecturing the rest of the nation's police force that they need to implement these policies now and calling for the police unions to support them immediately across the nation?

 

[Kin5290]

Uh, I'm not getting the opposition here. His point is that all of these social issues are being made an issue of law enforcement when they shouldn't be, and that's completely true.

And yeah, he's right about telling black men to join the police force as well. Or do you really think that the reforms that he has instituted in the Dallas PD have nothing to do with his own personal experience living as a black man?

 

[Matty77]

Bad phrasing but he is right. I think the join statement was a bad phrasing and not meant to be a solution, judging by the rest of his statements I think his point was along the lines of we need police that are parts of the community they serve working with the community's to prevent problems instead of outsiders.

I'd say he was on point but not written or spoken well, and the summary in the OP took something that meant well but sounded off and jumbled it even more.

Just my read on it, not saying it's fact and if further statements aren't in line with that I will gladly retract how I interpreted it.

 

[espher]

Yes, but if his response to protesters is "come join the police to fix this problem I just told you we can't fix" instead of "go protest the legislature since they have more control over the root causes of these issues", that doesn't make too much sense. Not to mention the fact that BLM protests are specifically about police interactions with their communities.

I took it as an "if you want to see more cops like you, become a cop"-type of statement. As someone else said, be the change you want to see.

It's still bizarre to make that statement in the context in which it was made. (Edit: And it definitely isn't going to be a magic fix-it-all but, I mean, if more socially progressive people get involved in law enforcement you'd expect to see a shift over the long term; that being said, it's not like every person is going to be a good fit for being a cop anyway, so, yeah.)

 

[excelsiorlef]

Adding more good apples doesn't do anything in the long run when the barrel is completely rotten...

Exactly.

It just means more apples to potentially get infected with the rot.

 

[Lmo911]

Failing schools? How is society expecting cops to fix failing schools? Is that referring to officers placed in schools?

I think it's more schools fail the students, students get on the wrong side of the law due to lack of opportunity, cops are called to deal with it. I could see it being about police on campus as well. If the teacher and parents can't control the students, then they turn to the police.

We as a society don't put the resources we need into helping the disadvantaged and especially those with mental health issues. Instead of having medical professionals or councilors help these people, the police are called and usually untrained to handle such a situation. Escalation happens and then the police do what he's trained to do, resulting in tragic results.

It's a lot of NIMBY and the results of everyone ignoring all these problems is a police force that is supposed to clean up everything. Many people may not directly expect the police to clean up all these problems, but when people call for help, they call the police.

It's a big messy holistic issue that's made worse by long standing biases that have created many of the divides that exacerbate the problem. The whole system needs to be reworked on a national level.

 

[Infinite]

Yes.

Children birthed 'out of wedlock' =! Children without fathers.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

We've had this discussion on GAF about the high percentage of black single-parent homes before, and statistics show that it is absolutely a legitimate issue that should be discussed. Not sure if the policeman chose the right venue, though.

Every black father I know sees their children every night before bed, just like myself..

What part of that reads as a joke? Why would I joke about this?

I'm not gonna browbeat him for it. He handled questions badly.

Sounded like you were giving him a "gassed" pass..he knew what he was saying.

Anyone can make great points but when their surrounded by bullshit, I'm not gonna pat his ass on the back. Sorry. I'm likely just tired of hearing this brand of bullshit..

 

[lenovox1]

Cops dealing with the fallout of a problem doesn't mean they're being asked or are expected to fix the root cause.

And that doesn't seem to be what he was saying just by reading the provided NPR article on the press conference.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

umm, isn't he more blaming black men (like himself) for not being a father figure to their children?

Sounds to me like he's blaming the system that puts black families in the position where so many children are raised without a father. The system that under educates and helps keep the circle going.

 

[CrocMother]

Exactly.

It just means more apples to potentially get infected with the rot.

Or, it means that the only way to change the culture is from the inside.

 

[Onemic]

Yes.

Born out of wedlock /= raised by a single parent.

 

[dity]

Yes yes people, his statements make complete sense and are completely fine if you replace some of the words with ones that match your interpretation.

Oh wait.

 

[Erevador]

Children birthed 'out of wedlock' =! Children without fathers.

From the article:

Lemon did overreach somewhat when he went on to say that the 72 percent "out of wedlock" figure "means absent fathers." The 72 percent figure refers to children who are born to women who are not married; it would, however, include unmarried couples in which the father is present.

That said, the rate of African-American children living in single-parent homes is almost as high as the rate for non-marital births.

The number being raised in single-parent households is 67 percent. That doesn't mean they have no contact with the father, but they are not living with both parents.

We should note that this data doesn’t suggest that 67 percent of African-American children have no contact with their father (or a father figure), but rather that their father does not live in the same household with them.

 

[Ivan 3414]

The Dallas Police Department was in full support of the BLM protest where his officers were killed, so that isn't his position.

The DPD was making sure no one was hurt in those protests, which is something they should be doing as police; that in itself isn't full support of BLM or its concerns.

 

[Kin5290]

Yes yes people, his statements make complete sense and are completely fine if you replace some of the words with ones that match your interpretation.

Oh wait.

His statements make sense as it is. All of these social issues are being left for law enforcement to pick up the pieces, which is correct. They should be being addressed upstream, but they're not.

 

[JP_]

Then why did he tell protesters to stop protesting and essentially become cops to help fix issues that they can't fix?

I get what he's saying and I get he was answering questions but I feel like he just brought up a laundry list of (legit) complaints about societal issues. But I'm not expecting police to fix anything but themselves.

To be clear, his complaints about being responsible for fixing everything was directed at city governments, not the public or protestors. His first examples were mental health funding, drug rehab funding, loose dog problem etc -- he's mocking the city government when he says "let the cops handle it." He called for "other parts of our democracy to help us." He also talked about gun laws. He told legislators to "do their job" and propose gun regulations. He's calling out the government's failures, not the people's.

 

[Mr. X]

Exactly.

It just means more apples to potentially get infected with the rot.

The cops aren't in charge of the barrel though. People are complaining about the apples to the cashier, not the store manager/farmer.

Analogies are fun.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Then why did he tell protesters to stop protesting and become a cop?

He was telling people to help the change by being part of it. It was cited that he joined the PD to help combat the crack issues.

Did you ever see Zootopia? Where the rabbit wanted to join the PD to help people? It's essentially that message.

 

[dity]

And that doesn't seem to be what he was saying just by reading the provided NPR article on the press conference.

No, he said this:

“Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve” said Brown. He listed mental health, drug addiction, loose dogs, failing schools as problems the public expects ‘cops to solve.’

“Seventy percent of the African American community is being raised by single women, let’s give it to the cops to solve that as well” said Brown. “Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.”

He was telling people to help the change by being part of it. It was cited that he joined the PD to help combat the crack issues.

Did you ever see Zootopia? Where the rabbit wanted to join the PD to help people? It's essentially that message.

He also said that those black men were a part of the problem if they don't join the force.

Also, prey are the majority with cushy lives in Zootopia. Not the minority.

 

[Ray Wonder]

Children birthed 'out of wedlock' =! Children without fathers.

That article says 67% are children in single-parent families

 

[Saint Gregory]

umm, isn't he more blaming black men (like himself) for not being a father figure to their children?

How many of those black men aren't taking care of their kids because they don't want to and how many aren't because they're dead, in jail or can't find employment?

I don't know if this changed at all over the years but I know that when my mother was a social worker she told me that families couldn't get public assistance in NYC if there was a man living in the house that was able-bodied. So in some situations women were actually forced to put out their children's fathers in order to survive. So it makes me kind of mad that systems were designed to split up poor AA families and yet the lack of fathers in these households are always a talkingpoint.

 

[LegendofLex]

Cops dealing with the fallout of a problem doesn't mean they're being asked or are expected to fix the root cause.

I think you're missing the nuance of what he's actually saying:

The criminal justice doesn't fix the root cause of these problems, so why is the criminal justice taking an increasing role in dealing with them instead of someone doing something about the root cause?

Yes, I think the 'solve' was meant to be 'resolve'.

The only obvious missing problem is 'guns', but it's Texas - so I guess he can't mention that.

Apparently he did mention that, too.

2. He also touched on the problem he sees with open-carry laws, which he said were increasingly challenging for law enforcement. "We don't know who the good guy is versus who the bad guy is if everybody starts shooting," he said.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...as-police-chief-tells-legislators-do-your-job

 

[BronsonLee]

Did you ever see Zootopia? Where the rabbit wanted to join the PD to help people? It's essentially that message.

Yeah, and Judy Hopps is SUPER racist

Spoiler

She actually kinda is, wtf at that speech halfway through the movie

 

[O.v.e.rlord]

Yes.

Wow!

 

[Ivan A Nguyen]

I am amazed at what police are asked to do. I can be a harsh critic of their work, but I can't believe the kinds of calls they get. I've watched enough Teen Mom to see that cops are often used as 'the adults' when people are arguing. There needs to be a step between the guy who responds to a shooting and the guy who responds to a loud party.

 

[The Lamp]

Failing schools? How is society expecting cops to fix failing schools? Is that referring to officers placed in schools?

Yes, high schools in Texas have cops there.

Cops are not paid enough to deal with all the shit they're asked to do. Then again, they're usually not trained or educated enough, either.

 

[El-Suave]

It's the same argument schools use complaining they're unequipped to fix the things that are wrong in the homes of many kids. It's not wrong but it shouldn't keep people from protesting.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The cops aren't in charge of the barrel though. People are complaining about the apples to the cashier, not the store manager/farmer.

Analogies are fun.

They aren't? They aren't responsible for the blue wall of silence? News to me

 

[SolarPowered]

To be clear, he's not just passing the buck to avoid having to improve his police department. He's been making progress reforming since he took up the post.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamaha/dallas-police-numbers?utm_term=.wnV5zYEazB#.vxGREPNeEW

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ing-those-things-could-now-be-more-difficult/

Dallas PD still has work to do, but they trying. Progress is being made. It's never as quick as is wanted or needed, but it's still worth acknowledging. And if you look at the protest in Dallas vs the protest in Baton Rouge, it's night and day. Dallas had zero riot gear, no tear gas, etc -- they didn't bring in heavy equipment. They didn't surround protesters or drag anybody away. They didn't point guns at anybody or shout orders on a loud speaker. They blocked off streets for the protestors.

He's essentially saying "Be the change you want to see."

Damn

He and the Dallas PD really have done good work over the years. Sounds and looks like a model for the state in general.

 

[Hale-XF11]

He says cops shouldn't be solving these problems, so he's urging people to become cops to solve their problems. What?

 

[Forerunner]

The shortage of officers is really a huge issue. Law enforcement isn’t really a job most people want. Long hours because of under manning, low pay, and it can be dangerous. This makes hiring extremely problematic because it means a lot of people that are unfit for the career end up getting hired and we have the mess we are in now. America is a huge country plus with the right to bear arms that makes the problem worse. Police reform would take years to accomplish. It’s unfortunately just a huge clusterfuck atm. Training is another huge issue and probably one of the most important to solve.

 

[spineduke]

I was reading a story about a school in New Jersey where a kid in the third grade said something racist while talking about brownies. They brought in the cops.

"Collingswood School Superintendent Scott Oswald said Thursday that Camden County prosecutors had demanded in a May meeting that the district report nearly every incident of student misbehavior to the police."

"During that meeting, it was made abundantly clear by an assistant prosecutor that if we did not follow the directive, they would come after us with criminal charges, they'd come after our educational certifications," Oswald said.

"Since that meeting, students as young as 7 have been reported to the police for incidents such as shoving in the lunch line or allegedly making a racist comment."

"Superintendent Scott Oswald estimated that on some occasions over the last month, officers may have been called to as many as five incidents per day in the district of 1,875 students."

Being stretched too thin, without the appropriate training for many of these roles. And that's just one job function. I can't imagine the internal shitstorms happening everywhere with little oversight, and little training.

 

[Skellig Gra]

It's a fair point. Drug abuse is a public health issue yet we turn to law enforcement to "get rid of the problem". So much stuff is criminalized when it should be handled via completely different means.

 

[Infinite]

That article says 67% are children in single-parent families

It actually says 67% are in single parent households not that the father isn't in their lives

I'm on mobile but here's another take on the study
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/08/opinion/charles-blow-black-dads-are-doing-the-best-of-all.html

 

[lenovox1]

The DPD was making sure no one was hurt in those protests, which is something they should be doing as police; that in itself isn't full support of BLM or its concerns.

Were they not also advertising the location and time of this protest on their official Twitter? Did they not barricade streets and walk alongside protesters?

Not to mention all of the reforms that Brown has implemented since becoming chief, as pointed out in this thread.

This isn't an officer or a department that's disconnected from the reality of minority issues and police issues.

 

[Crocodile]

His statements make sense as it is. All of these social issues are being left for law enforcement to pick up the pieces, which is correct. They should be being addressed upstream, but they're not.

That doesn't absolve them from bad arrests and bad shoots/beatdowns (often racially motivated), the "blue wall of silence" and many bad officers getting what amount to slaps on the wrists if they are caught. Those are the issues that are setting people off!

 

[excelsiorlef]

Were they not also advertising the location and time of this protest on their official Twitter? Did they not barricade streets and walk alongside protesters?

Not to mention all of the reforms that Brown has implemented since becoming chief, as pointed out in this thread.

This isn't an officer or a department that's disconnected from the reality of minority issues and police issues.

They also rushed to make an innocent black man public enemy number 1, took far too long to delete his facebfrom twitter, never apologized to my knowledge and tried to get him to falsely confess by telling him they had footage of him shooting people.

 

[Kitschkraft]

He disappointingly deflected blame for bad officers being trigger happy.

 

[Measley]

Police chief was whining about how cops are mistreated when the real issue is how cops are killing unarmed civilians and not getting punished for it.

Sterling and Castille are already getting lost in the shuffle.

 

[Servbot24]

What resources are the cops lacking that makes them shoot unarmed citizens dead? Or shoot legally armed citizens dead before they can even provide their ID? Or choke them out for selling loose ciggs?

Let's not lose sight of what people are so upset with the police for. This has been going on for a long time.

The missing resource is properly trained police who are mentally capable of handling those situations. That's what he's asking for. That's what he's not getting.

I know that cops killing people is what people are upset about. The cops have things they're upset about too - things that will help to address the concern of the people. Both deserve to be addressed.

He disappointingly deflected blame for bad officers being trigger happy.

While police reform is obviously desperately needed, at a certain point making gestures of falling upon the sword is less productive than actually requesting assistance.