• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Dark Souls |OT5| Definitely better than the sequel

turbocat

Member
Shittiest are the curse frogs in my opinion. I finally managed to kill all of them two days ago as I kept falling on the traps.

I've seen a lot of people complain about the curse frogs across the internet, and I didn't really know what was coming when I got there, but for whatever reason, they were never an issue for me. I don't think they ever cursed me. If it helps, I would have been using either an upgraded Claymore or Astora's Straight Sword paired with Gargoyle's Shield. It's all about locking on, backing out of the danger zone, and attacking when there's an opening.

I'd imagine you already know this, and this advice may not be helpful now, but if you're still dealing with them, good luck.
 
As long as you always buy a couple of curse healing items (which you are able to do after Gargoyles at a shop you can't miss with souls you're guaranteed to have) you should be fine as far as Curse risk goes.
 

Foxdude95

Neo Member
I'm relatively new to the series, hours away from completing my first full play through. Where should I go to get really deep into the lore and secret/hidden content in general? I remember reading a thread about a "secret ending" but I haven't been able to find it any where else.
 

turbocat

Member

v1perz53

Member
I'm relatively new to the series, hours away from completing my first full play through. Where should I go to get really deep into the lore and secret/hidden content in general? I remember reading a thread about a "secret ending" but I haven't been able to find it any where else.

VaatiVidya and EpicNameBro on youtube both have pretty good lore series if you want to load up some videos and get deeper into the lore. Can't help as much with secret/hidden content, as I picked it up in bits and pieces over a long time re-playing the game and watching videos.
 

GRIP

Member
I'm relatively new to the series, hours away from completing my first full play through. Where should I go to get really deep into the lore and secret/hidden content in general? I remember reading a thread about a "secret ending" but I haven't been able to find it any where else.


There is no secret ending. ENDING SPOILERS>>>>
There are, however, two different endings that you can trigger depending on what you do after defeating the final boss. You can either link the flame (light the bonfire) or walk out of the room. They have separate ending cut scenes but neither is all that great. I'd say that whichever you pick, just watch the other on youtube unless you plan on another playthrough.
 
I've seen a lot of people complain about the curse frogs across the internet, and I didn't really know what was coming when I got there, but for whatever reason, they were never an issue for me. I don't think they ever cursed me. If it helps, I would have been using either an upgraded Claymore or Astora's Straight Sword paired with Gargoyle's Shield. It's all about locking on, backing out of the danger zone, and attacking when there's an opening.

I'd imagine you already know this, and this advice may not be helpful now, but if you're still dealing with them, good luck.
I think some people have a hard time with them due to their armour choices. Just one curse resistant piece can make the difference.

Never had a problem with them myself because I'm usually in lighter armour that has decent resistance.
 

Donos

Member
Souls moment #425:

went to Ceaseless Discharge yesterday and started the fight. First hit with my two handed Claymore .... 59 dmg. "Oh boy, they buffed him pretty good in NG+.... that fight is going to take a while" i thought.
Fought a looong time till i sliped a dodge and fell over the edge into my death.... Lost all the will to play further till i thought about checking another weapon for this fight. What did i see there? Still had equipped the Fire Claymore +5 from my futile Four Kings try ... changed back to Claymore +15 and lol 600 dmg with a two handed strike and with Power Within even more. Easy fight then. Facepalm to myself.
 
I'm relatively new to the series, hours away from completing my first full play through. Where should I go to get really deep into the lore and secret/hidden content in general? I remember reading a thread about a "secret ending" but I haven't been able to find it any where else.

Join the darkwraits in your second run it really clarifies the myth of the "chosen undead" after your first default run.
 
I'm relatively new to the series, hours away from completing my first full play through. Where should I go to get really deep into the lore and secret/hidden content in general? I remember reading a thread about a "secret ending" but I haven't been able to find it any where else.

There is no secret ending. There are only 2 endings.

For good lore explanation watch epicnamebro YouTube channel lore playlist.
 

Thrak360

Neo Member
Finally dispatched O&S on the 6th or 7th attempt. Now that I'm sitting on about 80,000 souls, I was considering maybe shopping for new pyromancies and leveling up attunement.

But is there a merchant for that? Or do I have to do covenant stuff? Previous merchant Laurentius seemed to go bad, so he's gone.
 
Finally dispatched O&S on the 6th or 7th attempt. Now that I'm sitting on about 80,000 souls, I was considering maybe shopping for new pyromancies and leveling up attunement.

But is there a merchant for that? Or do I have to do covenant stuff? Previous merchant Laurentius seemed to go bad, so he's gone.

RIP Laurentius, you need to go see the Fair lady in blightown, his servant sells pyro spells, and outside her cave in the poison near of the entrance of the cave you can find a chaos lady who sells more pyro spells
 

Ruuppa

Member
RIP Laurentius, you need to go see the Fair lady in blightown, his servant sells pyro spells, and outside her cave in the poison near of the entrance of the cave you can find a chaos lady who sells more pyro spells

Worth noting that the servant only sells Pyromancies if you are in the Chaos Covenant and have talked to him as an egghead.
 

Thrak360

Neo Member
RIP Laurentius, you need to go see the Fair lady in blightown, his servant sells pyro spells, and outside her cave in the poison near of the entrance of the cave you can find a chaos lady who sells more pyro spells
Yeah that eggsac guy can level up my pyro flame, but was not selling spells. I'm not an "egghead".

I'll look again outside the cave, but I was just out there and couldn't find a lady merchant.
 

Ruuppa

Member
Yeah that eggsac guy can level up my pyro flame, but was not selling spells. I'm not an "egghead".

I'll look again outside the cave, but I was just out there and couldn't find a lady merchant.

There are a couple crawling eggmen who attack you on the path towards the infinite lava palace. Let them beat on you for a while, hope for their grab attacks. You'll be a proper egghead in no time!

She will not arrive until your pyro flame is plus 10 or higher.

Didn't she also arrive right after joining Chaos Covenant/finding the Fair Lady/beating Quelaag? I forget which one was the trigger.
 

Guevara

Member
I decided to go back to DS1 about about 200 hours with DS2. Really enjoying it, but I'm surprised how much feels different between the games.

The mace! The mace is arguably the best starting weapon in DS2, but the moveset and damage are both worse in DS1. Thinking of trying a Claymore.

General movement. Dark Souls 1 feels more precise maybe? But slower as well.

The queuing up of inputs feels longer in DS1: that is: if you tap attack-attack-attack-roll you will do those 4 things, even if you no longer want to by the end of it.
 
I decided to go back to DS1 about about 200 hours with DS2. Really enjoying it, but I'm surprised how much feels different between the games.

The mace! The mace is arguably the best starting weapon in DS2, but the moveset and damage are both worse in DS1. Thinking of trying a Claymore.

General movement. Dark Souls 1 feels more precise maybe? But slower as well.

The queuing up of inputs feels longer in DS1: that is: if you tap attack-attack-attack-roll you will do those 4 things, even if you no longer want to by the end of it.

Mace is easy mode in DS2, everything is easy mode in DS2
 

Ruuppa

Member
No she only arrives when its at plus ten.
She can definitely appear even without +10 Pyromancy Flame. I've had her there on a lot of my characters who never even touched Pyromancy.

+10 Pyromancy Flame is a 100% definite way of getting her to spawn though.
The queuing up of inputs feels longer in DS1: that is: if you tap attack-attack-attack-roll you will do those 4 things, even if you no longer want to by the end of it.
This has killed me too many times than I care to admit. It's a great thing to notice with those big, heavy weapons with huge recovery times.
 
Queelana appears before the bed of chaos and after advancing Anor Londo, She also have a side quest that gives you the last pyromancy for the achievement/trophy
 
Been making my way through my Soul Level 1 No Upgrades challenge. I just finally took out smough and ornstein literally by the skin of my teeth with a not so grandiose double KO finish.

See for yourself.

http://youtu.be/6locmoroaVw?t=27m17s

Definitely not one of my brightest moments -_-

Not sure where to go next. Definitely saving 4 kings for last. Thinking about giving myself a break and doing bed of chaos next. S&O was too close for comfort.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
No one playing this on PC anymore? I barely get invaded (except by NPC's duh), rarely see messages and I haven't seen a single ghost in hours upon hours.

Queelana appears before the bed of chaos and after advancing Anor Londo, She also have a side quest that gives you the last pyromancy for the achievement/trophy

I saw her on my first playthrough in my first visit to Blighttown with a +5 Pyromancy Flame. Shit's whack yo
 

Kaleinc

Banned
No one playing this on PC anymore? I barely get invaded (except by NPC's duh), rarely see messages and I haven't seen a single ghost in hours upon hours.
There are sparse players but invasions often fail for me when they shouldn't.
 

Ruuppa

Member
If you're in the SL sweet spot, 100 - 125, you'll be able to see quite a bit of action PVP/Co-op wise. Depends on your area in regards to co-op though.

I attribute the sparseness of messages to the playerbase getting more used to the game and the things in it. I barely ever put down messages anywhere, since no-one rates them and I've placed them a million times before. IIRC the messages also disappear after a while if they're not rated.

And yeah, Township is still fun. So is Forest, like it has always been.
 

turbocat

Member
If you're in the SL sweet spot, 100 - 125, you'll be able to see quite a bit of action PVP/Co-op wise. Depends on your area in regards to co-op though.

I attribute the sparseness of messages to the playerbase getting more used to the game and the things in it. I barely ever put down messages anywhere, since no-one rates them and I've placed them a million times before. IIRC the messages also disappear after a while if they're not rated.

And yeah, Township is still fun. So is Forest, like it has always been.

Playing this weekend on NG+, right around SL 100 in Anor Londo, I was getting invaded left and right. I eventually just disabled my internet connection, as I was just trying to make it through the area, but it was more PVP than I've ever seen. I was really surprised. I knew that the community was still active, but I had no idea it was this active.
 

NeoGiff

Member
Holy shit, I just beat Ornstein and Smough on my second attempt.

Went in there the first time with Solaire and killed Smough first (big mistake). Got owned by super-Ornstein.

The second time I went in with Solaire and another player. We took out Ornstein first, after which super-Smough posed no threat whatsoever (except to Solaire, RIP). And the best part? I somehow didn't take damage. The game seems to have finally clicked!
 

Thrak360

Neo Member
I tried O&S solo a handful of times. Best I did was killing Ornstein while simultaneously getting killed by Smough. Rather depressing to have to watch the mid-fight cutscene before... YOU DIED. After that I had a string of really weak attempts, before I decided to just summon help. I summoned someone at the bonfire, because it was a pain to try and make it from the bonfire to the Solaire summon sign without getting invaded. Was practically invaded before I could get out of that first room every time.

That was my first time with a non-NPC summon. I didn't know if there was any etiquette, so I just headed towards the boss fight with summon in tow, we crushed an invading phantom, and then I made a run for the fog door ignoring the archer and giant guards. The summon started fighting in there, maybe they assumed I was going to summon Solaire as well? I honestly didn't even think of that. The 2 on 2 boss fight wasn't that bad at all. Glad to get that behind me.
 
Just started NG+, level 89, and am finding the game very easy. Yes the enemies do more damage, but it doesn't scale anywhere near the amount of damage I do. I have just beaten Orenstein and Smough, and so far though the game have died about 3 times. I felt DS2 NG+ was harder.
 

v1perz53

Member
Just started NG+, level 89, and am finding the game very easy. Yes the enemies do more damage, but it doesn't scale anywhere near the amount of damage I do. I have just beaten Orenstein and Smough, and so far though the game have died about 3 times. I felt DS2 NG+ was harder.

DS2 NG+ was more artificial of a difficulty increase, as the game added in a bunch of new enemies that you weren't expecting, so if you went in with the same strategies you would die. Most egregious were the addition of red phantoms spawning in the middle of boss fights on NG+ that weren't there before, such a stupid way to add difficulty.

Anyway, in DkS 1, on NG+ the game starts off really very easy as you noted, but it gets much harder quickly. It is weird in that the difficulty goes up throughout NG, then drops at the start of NG+, but then rises very quickly and overtakes end game NG difficulty. I think O+S onward on NG+ was where things got real. DkS 2 was a little more evenly paced difficulty wise on NG+. Though my second time through DkS 2 NG+ when I knew where the extra enemies were, it felt like a total joke because my character was so powerful at that point, since you can get to like SL 200 quite easily in NG.
 

Guevara

Member
Wow the Claymore is so nice, I never even tried it before.

I think I screwed up by advancing too quickly. At AL at soul level 35 (and in about 8 hours)
 

Ruuppa

Member
Wow the Claymore is so nice, I never even tried it before.

I think I screwed up by advancing too quickly. At AL at soul level 35 (and in about 8 hours)

The faster you finish AL, the faster the game opens up. Don't worry about it. Usual SL for AL is around 45 - 55.
 
DS2 NG+ was more artificial of a difficulty increase, as the game added in a bunch of new enemies that you weren't expecting, so if you went in with the same strategies you would die. Most egregious were the addition of red phantoms spawning in the middle of boss fights on NG+ that weren't there before, such a stupid way to add difficulty.
I'll have to disagree with this, at least to an extent. The phantoms added some much needed variety in enemy composition to areas where it was lacking on DS2 NG (Heide Tower I'm looking at you), and it's something that offers a new threat rather than being solely an increased stat boost.
 

v1perz53

Member
I'll have to disagree with this, at least to an extent. The phantoms added some much needed variety in enemy composition to areas where it was lacking on DS2 NG (Heide Tower I'm looking at you), and it's something that offers a new threat rather than being solely an increased stat boost.

It is the way that phantoms were added that made it artificial. The phantoms in Heide's were nice because you could see them before going in. You knew before engaging that there were more enemies and you had to be careful, those are proper and good ways to increase difficulty.

But the phantoms added to the Lost Sinner fight? Going in blind to that fight on NG+, there is no way to be prepared for it and you will almost surely die unless you knew those extra NPCs were coming. Now, if you entered the room and during the cutscene you saw two phantoms spawn, or you could see them waiting to drop down, it would be a different story, perfectly fair way to increase difficulty. But springing them on you out of nowhere mid fight is cheap, not hard. Trivial to deal with if you know they are coming, nearly impossible to deal with if you don't. Two high damage caster NPCs in a fight with a fast attacking melee boss? Please... Same with Flexile Sentry, two extra enemies that jump on you when entering to ensure that there is one cheap death the first time through. Totally trivial to deal with your second time through though.

In Dark Souls 1 and throughout all of NG in Dark Souls 2, every enemy that would attack you is readily visible and exists in the world, and if a phantom spawns out of nowhere you get a message that "xx has invaded". This is fair. But NG+ and on in DkS 2 adds phantoms that spawn out of nowhere without actually giving you invasion messages, which is just cheap.
 
It is the way that phantoms were added that made it artificial. The phantoms in Heide's were nice because you could see them before going in. You knew before engaging that there were more enemies and you had to be careful, those are proper and good ways to increase difficulty.

But the phantoms added to the Lost Sinner fight? Going in blind to that fight on NG+, there is no way to be prepared for it and you will almost surely die unless you knew those extra NPCs were coming. Now, if you entered the room and during the cutscene you saw two phantoms spawn, or you could see them waiting to drop down, it would be a different story, perfectly fair way to increase difficulty. But springing them on you out of nowhere mid fight is cheap, not hard. Trivial to deal with if you know they are coming, nearly impossible to deal with if you don't. Two high damage caster NPCs in a fight with a fast attacking melee boss? Please... Same with Flexile Sentry, two extra enemies that jump on you when entering to ensure that there is one cheap death the first time through. Totally trivial to deal with your second time through though.

In Dark Souls 1 and throughout all of NG in Dark Souls 2, every enemy that would attack you is readily visible and exists in the world, and if a phantom spawns out of nowhere you get a message that "xx has invaded". This is fair. But NG+ and on in DkS 2 adds phantoms that spawn out of nowhere without actually giving you invasion messages, which is just cheap.

Spider phantoms ! just a lazy design to make the game "harder" by adding more mobs in form of phantoms to gives you the impression is new content like an ordinary RPG
 

Ruuppa

Member
The NG+ red phantoms that struck me as thoroughly cheap were the two big sickleguys that spawn in Huntsman's Copse, when you go to grab the Undead Lockaway key. No warning, just bamf, we're here!

If the red phantoms that appear out of thin air on NG+ had a invasion message I would be a lot less salty.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
The NG+ red phantoms that struck me as thoroughly cheap were the two big sickleguys that spawn in Huntsman's Copse, when you go to grab the Undead Lockaway key. No warning, just bamf, we're here!
They weren't shocking at all if you played the network beta test.... ;)
 

v1perz53

Member
The NG+ red phantoms that struck me as thoroughly cheap were the two big sickleguys that spawn in Huntsman's Copse, when you go to grab the Undead Lockaway key. No warning, just bamf, we're here!

If the red phantoms that appear out of thin air on NG+ had a invasion message I would be a lot less salty.

That is pretty much my exact gripe boiled down succinctly. Why did you train us for a whole playthrough that when enemies pop up you get an invasion message, then throw that away for NG+? Just a cheap lazy way to artificially increase difficulty.

They weren't shocking at all if you played the network beta test.... ;)

I bet they were shocking the first time someone saw them in that test though! But yea, that's why I don't like it. Easy to deal with if you know about it, hard to deal with if you don't. True difficulty should be hard to deal with either way, but fair.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I agree with the general sentiment, but I don't think these particular BPs were really cheap. When they spawn you have plenty of time to deal with them one by one.
 

Zocano

Member
I don't really like the idea of making an inflammatory thread just for the sake of discussing one boss from Dark Souls. I'll get a bunch of people's attention but it's usually filled with stupid one comment drive-by posts.

So instead I'll post here.

Ornstein and Smough get too much credit and are only 1/2 of a really boss fight.

My biggest pet peeve in reading Dark Souls 2 criticisms is the criticizing of multi-enemy encounters and how the combat system in Souls currently just doesn't really support multi-enemy encounters that well.

And then people turn right around and hail Ornstein and Smough as an example of a great boss fight from Dark Souls 1 to use against Dark Souls 2's boss gallery...

and it makes me frustrated and angry and annoyed. Because they're not that great of a boss fight.

Specifically, they're one half of a really good boss fight and one half of a really annoying shitting enemy kiting fest. You spend the vast majority of the encounter just kiting the two around and hoping one gets either too far behind or stuck on the pillars to let you have some breathing room to attack the other. The arena is not set up well to enable that.

Durante consistently brings up a Dark Souls 2 DLC boss (the ones who know will know what I'm talking about) and how, even though it is a multiple enemy encounter, the arena actually helps you a ton in dealing with it.

The Ornstein/Smough fight doesn't.

This doesn't stop the second half of teh boss being interesting to engage due to movesets that discourage circle-strafing.

But the first half just isn't that fun. It's just frustrating because you're just hoping the AIs are dumb enough to give you room. You're not having a back and forth struggle with an enemy, you're just kiting and forcing the double enemy set up out of the question.

There's a big reason why everyone remembers Capra and Ornstein/Smough. Because it's a big roadblock in your progression because they are bosses that just gang up and overwhelm you with numbers.

The capra fight is less offensive because the stair case gives you a really useful way to funnel the enemies. But even then, the opening of the fight is almost just RNG hoping they don't immediately overwhelm you as step past the fog.

I'm not attempting to detract from the actual great bosses in the game, but Ornstein and Smough are not one of them. Half a great boss fight doesn't make a good boss fight. It's why I don't list the Chariot as one of the great fights in Dark Souls 2.
 

v1perz53

Member
I don't really like the idea of making an inflammatory thread just for the sake of discussing one boss from Dark Souls. I'll get a bunch of people's attention but it's usually filled with stupid one comment drive-by posts.

I pretty much disagree with most of what you said, but all are opinions and I respect yours, so instead of saying you are wrong, I'll just explain my own counter opinion to yours. No anger or offense meant with anything that follows, just my opinion! For context, I now have over 300 hours played in DkS 2, so if it sounds like I am hating on it, I obviously still love the game for having played it that much.

First I'll address the DkS 2 DLC fight you mentioned. The fact that the arena is set up to facilitate kiting them around doesn't stop that from being the worst, most miserable boring awfully designed boss fight in a Souls game. You can either spend the entire fight jumping down into the water, waiting for them to follow you then running away hoping one is faster than the other two so you attack that guy, or you try to go in legit and get instantly overwhelmed and die. Just because the arena allows you to lamely kite them forever and have a 15 minute fight that you could technically win with a +0 bow and some wooden arrows doesn't change the fact that you are spending 15 minutes kiting a group of lame enemies around. That fight was not hard, but it was tedious and boring.

But enough about that, back to O+S. You say the arena isn't designed to be helpful, I respectfully disagree. Both O and S have attacks that allow you to abuse the pillars to block their path. Similarly, you can use these pillars, even when broken to separate them to get some hits in. I think the arena is actually the simplest possible layout that has many points perfect for use in a group fight.

As for the first half being kiting, I think it is less about kiting and more about exploiting opportunities. Both O and S each have attacks where you know you now have a window to punish the other one. Want to kill O first? You have tons of opportunities, either when S does his jump attacks, charge attacks, or you can get some distance from them and if O does his speed charge on you you are guaranteed at least one hit. Want to kill S first? Similarly, any time O is casting, you know you have time to get hits on S while he recovers. And by nature of O's spear, if he is on the other side of a pillar, you have opportunities as well.

The entire O+S fight is never random, and is 100% controllable. Compare that to the Throne Watcher and Defender fight from DkS 2 for an example of a 2 boss fight done much worse than O+S. Watcher and Defender's movesets are very similar looking, unpredictable and hard to tell what they are doing. Plus, they have fast recovery. Soloing W+D is an exercise in backpedaling until they happen to both attack at the same time, and hoping they don't gang up on you after. O+S is not like this, you have a ton of totally controlled safe opportunities to attack. At this point, I can go into that fight and, with reasonably good play, take no damage in the first phase even with a melee strategy.

Also, when people complain about group encounters in DkS 2, they are rarely talking about 2 enemies. The most frustrating is 3+, because this is the number generally where if you make a mistake and get hit, they can stun lock you from full HP to dead because there are so many things attacking you. That is why NG+ in DkS 2 frustrates me, because they add 2 phantoms to so many bosses, turning them from fun challenges to cheap stunlock deaths. I mean, Darklurker was voted as the best boss in DkS 2 and that is a 2 enemy encounter. And just like O+S, it is completely predictable, all damage is avoidable, and when you know the fight you have plenty of openings to do damage.

And just as a last point, Capra is definitely a cheap death the first time you go in there unless you know what is coming. But those dogs each die in 1 hit if you use any kind of resin, so you can hardly even call that a multi enemy encounter.
 
I don't really like the idea of making an inflammatory thread just for the sake of discussing one boss from Dark Souls. I'll get a bunch of people's attention but it's usually filled with stupid one comment drive-by posts.

Well, for me maybe the first time you fight two bosses that actually battle as a team and dont take turns to give your room or just have phases at all to give a breath is fight or get killed. O&S battle is about testing how much do you dominated the basic features of the game, your surroundings, your gear and weapons knowledge are in play this time.

You can get destroyed if you dont understand the basis of the room and how to get them separated, some players can get it at first try by actually knowing the blacksmith mechanics, using guides or getting summons, others dont, the song actually gives you the vibes this not not your usuall boss battle but something menacing and rewarding and when you defeated one you have the impression of "Phew, one down now lets take the other g....holy shit" vibe, its an unique feeling I never felt before in a long time.

You can say Smoug have predictable moves but his moves are very a masquerade and can hurt you, bad, if you dont take him seriously while ornstein is the classic agile boss that wont let you hit his bro and have moves that can break your guard if he sees your guarding too much, giving smoug time to charge his moves and seek for a window to hit you it but if you use ornstein as your shield, Smoug won try to hit you and look for a entrance in your sides or ornstein will move to let smoug hit you.

After the battle the feeling of reward is huge ingame, you can finally take a break and the game stops for you to understand what to do now, if you take your time of course.

But returning to your issue the battle have no cheap mechanics compared to DS2 bosses, a perfect example is the throne battle for the O&S esque battle returns.

This time the enviroment is plain and simple, with some holes on the edges, the duo just charges at you no matter what happens even if they have to pass each other hit boxes to hit you and no window to attack because the other one just instant jump and hit you in a inrealistic angle so you are just guarding yourself the entire battle praying for a single blow with out being hit by the duo which happens very often.

They dont have stamina, not stun animation, not coordination or teamwork they are just there moving so fast they can clash each other and didnt care but when you hit them both attack you and hurts you back you dont have time to do shit against them.

What to do? overgear yourself and kill them, thats all,just roll and maul them faster than them to you, there is no strategy in most of the bosses. You kill them and that all, souls gained.

The gank squad, where to begin with those guys.

The three of them have infinite stamina.

Havel have instant frames to hit and pretty much destroys your shield guard and energy
The small guy have invincible frames and instant frames to avoid to be backstabbed
The archer have instant swap weapons and can use the great bow without penalty at all

Is like seeing a moded agression mod for NPCs acting like a boss battle.

But if you like the bosses in DS2 its fine.
 

Zocano

Member
Regarding the Gank Squad, I mostly brought them up because Durante mentioned how helpful and interesting the actual arena is in helping you out which I had never really considered (though in the moment it was helpful). Personally, I'm not a super big fan of the fight, and would rather prefer solo fights instead of encouraging a co-op boss.

But I still feel like you guys are giving Ornstein and Smough a lot more credit and fluffing up their AI. It's not AI that coordinates with each other. It works like every other AI in the game attacking when it pleases. It's as RNG-y as every other multiple enemy fight where you are waiting for the window between both their attacks.

And to minimize the risk you're heavily encouraged to just run around the room and kite them because they overwhelm you incredibly fast if you stay in the same general area.

I think it's easy to say that, well, every fight is always just RNG waiting on your window, but adding more enemies generally complicates things.

The best thing I can give to the fight is that separately, each of their attacks are actually super long and have huge windows (meaning that together the odds of a window being available is just that much greater) which the Defender/Watcher fight mostly didn't have. They are swordsmen that very quick and mobile and thus the window that you need is just that much less and ultimately makes it that much more frustrating.
 

v1perz53

Member
Regarding the Gank Squad, I mostly brought them up because Durante mentioned how helpful and interesting the actual arena is in helping you out which I had never really considered (though in the moment it was helpful). Personally, I'm not a super big fan of the fight, and would rather prefer solo fights instead of encouraging a co-op boss.

But I still feel like you guys are giving Ornstein and Smough a lot more credit and fluffing up their AI. It's not AI that coordinates with each other. It works like every other AI in the game attacking when it pleases. It's as RNG-y as every other multiple enemy fight where you are waiting for the window between both their attacks.

And to minimize the risk you're heavily encouraged to just run around the room and kite them because they overwhelm you incredibly fast if you stay in the same general area.

I think it's easy to say that, well, every fight is always just RNG waiting on your window, but adding more enemies generally complicates things.

The best thing I can give to the fight is that separately, each of their attacks are actually super long and have huge windows (meaning that together the odds of a window being available is just that much greater) which the Defender/Watcher fight mostly didn't have. They are swordsmen that very quick and mobile and thus the window that you need is just that much less and ultimately makes it that much more frustrating.

By the very nature of a Souls game and how combat works, there are limited options for a two enemy encounter. There is really no way to design such an encounter without the aspect of kiting them around the room waiting for an opening, like there is nothing else a two boss fight would be able to do. Attack one at a time or something? I'm just honestly not sure how one could design a two enemy fight where both enemies have high HP without the kiting aspect in a Souls game.

It just needs to be done such that each of the enemies does things that gives you a window to attack the other. O+S don't have any special AI, they don't need it. (I guess it would have been cool if they made a special AI that coordinated though) They both randomly pick their attacks just like any other boss. But enough of their attacks give you a window to counter them that the fight works well enough. And most importantly, they don't break the game rules. They block each other and are blocked by the environment, they don't have infinite stamina and they stagger when they should based on the poise of their equipment. To me the most frustrating aspects of DkS 2 fights was when they break these rules, and it happens often as Orochinagis mentioned with Watcher and Defender.

Honestly, I didn't think O+S was a be all end all fight in the original Dark Souls like a lot of people make it out to be. I thought it was a competent and fair fight with an absolutely incredible payoff in the feeling that you were so awesome when you finally won. Not the best fight ever, but to me a totally competent fight with no glaring issues.
 
My biggest pet peeve in reading Dark Souls 2 criticisms is the criticizing of multi-enemy encounters and how the combat system in Souls currently just doesn't really support multi-enemy encounters that well.

And then people turn right around and hail Ornstein and Smough as an example of a great boss fight from Dark Souls 1 to use against Dark Souls 2's boss gallery...
I wouldn't really class O&S as a multi-enemy encounter in the context of the DS2 criticisms - Capra demon possibly. The DS2 criticisms are more about throwing multiple smaller enemies at you in a boss encounter in order to up the difficulty (or keep you distracted from damaging the boss). O&S are both bosses, neither is a trashmob even before supersizing.

When DS2 does it well, I don't mind it - Skeleton Lords is a boss I always enjoy, even if it is easy, because the mechanic is initially a surprise and you can then make it as difficult or as easy as you like by either taking out the Lords asap and then dealing with a room full of skellies or taking them out one by one and dealing with each of their spawned underlings in turn. Covertous Demon is similarly a unique mechanic where you can use the enemies to distract him, again another interesting idea wasted on an otherwise terrible design and easy boss fight.

Nito is probably the closest DS1 boss to the DS2 model of multi-enemy boss room fights.
 

turbocat

Member
I've only attempted to solo O&S a couple of times, but this last time, all I did was summon Sunbro, and it was essentially a solo fight once Smough was at 1/3 of his health left. Having 20 Estus made the fight bearable, but even without that, if you're careful, for the most part, you can make it work. For me, it was part kiting, part hiding behind broken pillars, part hoping Orstein didn't somehow get behind me, and part having enough stamina to take Smough's main attacks.

I get where the original complaint is coming from though. The entire first half of the encounter is a roadblock, and the second half just tests how well you know the combat system to that point in the game.Super Orstein and his electric stab attack though...that one just feels cheap to me. If you have any ranged capabilities for the second half of the fight, you can easily come out with a win.

If O&S were engineered to be more aggressive opponents, I can't imagine how difficult the fight would be, but as it stands, even if it's not the most well-designed fight in the game, it's still certainly one of the most memorable.
 
Top Bottom