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Dark Souls: Prepare to Die Edition |OT| Durante Does In 23 Minutes What From Can't
- Thread starter indigo-cyclops
- Start date
PS3 then. It was the original platform for Demon's and there is also the japanese players. Dark Souls wasn't even released over there on 360.
That is a staged invasion it happens everytime.
AlimNassor
Banned
I'm not beating Ornstein and Smough anytime soon. That's fer sure. :-/ They're really honest to god difficult. By the time I even get to them I've already lost a few flasks. This may be it. I'm taking a long extended break. Anor Londo is hell.
Number of deaths on them alone: 135. I'm going to have PTSD because of them.
Number of deaths on them alone: 135. I'm going to have PTSD because of them.
What is your level? Just curious. I finished the game but I think I was overlevelled at that point and onwards.
Busta SMurk
Member
Manus: |-------| This close. Twice.
1) If you don't already, start at the Firekeeper bonfire, that way you can run past all the enemies (basically the giants) and don't lose any flask getting there, also it's closer (assuming you've opened the big doorway from inside).
2) Kill Ornstein first, Ornstein is quick, so try to get them to split, that way you can attack him while Smough is still far away.
3) Don't try to get too many attacks in, otherwise Smough will catch up and the both of them together can really mess you up.
4) Use the columns (even the broken ones, doesn't matter) strategically, especially if you want to use a flask, get them to stumble a second on those so you can heal.
5) Smough's attacks are very easy to avoid and predict, watch a few videos of him online, when he's alone it's best to stay up his ass, unless he's doing the lightning ass stomp, in which case you want to roll away like a MoFo.
6) You can summon Solaire there, though in that case remember to clear the room from the Silver Knight and the two giants, or he'll waste precious health fighting those.
Solaire is not particularly good, BUT he can be very useful cause he'll aggro the two bastards giving you time to heal or attack more freely.
His sign is on the stairs with the silver archer, kill the archer BEFORE summoning him, or he's gonna get nailed.
7) When of the two is dead, the otherone will get all his health back, so focus on one target only, everything else is a waste.
Also, i'd say if it's you first time, an apt level would be around 50, against them.
cm osi
Member
not talking about leeroy, they were 2 players.
AlimNassor
Banned
40ish. Why does level matter?
higher level = Higher stats.
What are your stats?
VIT and END particularly and also, are you going for a specific build? Like all DEX or all STR.
And remember that the game will find phatoms and invaders around your level, so it's ideal to be a certain level for a certain area, if you want to find people to summon.
Eh, they're funny to mess around with. Roll around through them and watch em fly.
RockTurtle
Member
yesterday i invaded anor londo and spent 40 minutes along with a darkwraith searching every nook and cranny for the host.
we couldnt find him, about 10 minutes into the search we both noticed him losing some HP on top of the cathedral but he was nowhere to be found. i remember this and went back to the top of the cathedral with the broken window. i thought that maybe instead of dropping right, he went left.
that's when i noticed a walkway i had never noticed before in my 3 runs of DS. the small walkway leads to the top of the cathedral doors. i looked hard and noticed the host using fogring, but his character breathing gave him away against the white backdrop of the walls.
i was sure he noticed me, so i went around the corner for about 10 seconds, giving him a false sense of security. then i rushed in with my BKGA and gave him 2 wacks and made him fall. i fell on top with a lunge attack and finally finished him off while he laid down.
we couldnt find him, about 10 minutes into the search we both noticed him losing some HP on top of the cathedral but he was nowhere to be found. i remember this and went back to the top of the cathedral with the broken window. i thought that maybe instead of dropping right, he went left.
that's when i noticed a walkway i had never noticed before in my 3 runs of DS. the small walkway leads to the top of the cathedral doors. i looked hard and noticed the host using fogring, but his character breathing gave him away against the white backdrop of the walls.
i was sure he noticed me, so i went around the corner for about 10 seconds, giving him a false sense of security. then i rushed in with my BKGA and gave him 2 wacks and made him fall. i fell on top with a lunge attack and finally finished him off while he laid down.
KennyLinder
Member
Ohh are there more Bonfires that are warpable now? I assume this will get put into the console version too. It was frustrating at times!
These are the ones they added:
Depths
Undead Parish
Tomb of the Giants (the bonfire near Patches)
Duke's Archives (the bonfire near the entrance to Crystal Cave)
Crystal Cave
Painted World of Ariamis (can't warp from it, though)
In addition to those, every bonfire in the new area can be warped to, as well.
jim-jam bongs
Member
had some fun with an invader in al yesterday. for some reason I decided to toy with them by using hidden body and playing with the big rotating bridge in the middle of the zone, so they were running around for ages trying to work out which floor I was hiding on and having to continually change the bridge orientation.
in the end I screwed up and fell off something really high because I was cackling to myself.
this thread has delivered in spades, can't wait until the console players get the dlc too.
in the end I screwed up and fell off something really high because I was cackling to myself.
this thread has delivered in spades, can't wait until the console players get the dlc too.
Does anyone else when they win in an invasion, kill themselves so that the host can have your souls?
Since you're invading, you get all the rewards from killing the host, and theres no downside to killing yourself after. Only thing that happens is the host gets to have all the souls you have as well.
Anyone else do this when they play?
Since you're invading, you get all the rewards from killing the host, and theres no downside to killing yourself after. Only thing that happens is the host gets to have all the souls you have as well.
Anyone else do this when they play?
cat litter
Member
I'm so ready for this, today I grinded 100k souls to buy logans spells, lost them all at the staircase near the bonfire.
And for the guy fighting smough and ornstein, keep running backwards in a circular motion, stopping to attack or roll behind a pillar when you need to.
KennyLinder
Member
It's great that they've added those locations, I always thought it was strange that major areas didn't have warpable Bonfires and it was frustrating at times too.
Will the older OT thread be brought back when the PS3/360 content comes out?
I've got loads to do in my Sorcery build now. My next go-to area is Blighttown to visit the boss and ring the bell, but I am doing lots of co-op at the moment at the Parish bell boss, so good still
Will definitely being my SL180 out of retirement for the DLC (assuming you can use an old character, that is). I've not read anything about the DLC, where the locations are or anything so can't wait to get into it.
Will the older OT thread be brought back when the PS3/360 content comes out?
I've got loads to do in my Sorcery build now. My next go-to area is Blighttown to visit the boss and ring the bell, but I am doing lots of co-op at the moment at the Parish bell boss, so good still
Will definitely being my SL180 out of retirement for the DLC (assuming you can use an old character, that is). I've not read anything about the DLC, where the locations are or anything so can't wait to get into it.
The annoying run to the boss is part of the necessary frustration that builds up to the immense satisfaction of finally destroying that asshole of a boss. I don't know if you could have that feeling of overcoming the odds if you removed some of that annoyance, and I don't think I've played a game with this sense of accomplishment in ages.I knew you would say this.
I do think that you can remove the frustration and still keep the tension. A less frustrating game is a better one. That's true for every game, Souls games are no exception to this rule.
Maybe some things are not quite there, but bonfires were a great addition to find a middle ground, but I've found that in most cases it's just enough. I feel they were a stroke of genius, they fix so many things that were wrong in Demon's Souls in such a simple way...
Eh, I don't count it as glitches myself, but I've read Miyazaki say they build the AI with quirks they expect the players will exploit, so breaking the game is "in the game", though I could understand if you chose not to believe them. I would if everything in the game wouldn't feel so deliberate (technical stuff aside).
It's not perfect and it's pretty unfair in times I wish it wasn't, but the Souls games are for me among the best games of all times, so I'm very weary of changing these supposedly small things, and I hope they don't give that up for sales reasons of all things. Not every game is meant for everyone and people shouldn't feel bad for backing out because of its difficulty, since an easier game just wouldn't be the same.
Which bonfire is the one in Undead Parish? I read it was the one by Andre but that's never been warpable for me...
Thing about the Souls games, and why the exploitations work to the games' advantage most of the time. Is because contrary to popular belief the game isn't really "skill based" or based on pure dexterity, reflexes and twitch, which would go against the Souls doctrine of different solutions and stuff like that. It's based primarily on repetition and knowledge of the systems and combat, so it's not really hard in the traditional sense once you've put the work in, you don't have to build up muscle memory or develop god-like reflexes. Unless you're doing a no-level up run, with item and weapon restrictions, and even then it's extremely exploitable based on knowledge aside from a few bosses.
So for me, that's the draw, the shared knowledge among the community and depth in options for every build or scenario. Not true reflex driven difficulty and "skill". And the "cheesy availability" in options plays into that depth, just depends on how you play and how you look at it.
So for me, that's the draw, the shared knowledge among the community and depth in options for every build or scenario. Not true reflex driven difficulty and "skill". And the "cheesy availability" in options plays into that depth, just depends on how you play and how you look at it.
Nope, yeah, it's never worked for me. It's not very annoying because it's so close from Firelink Shrine if you take the elevator, but it'd be nice...
Thanks for saying it way better than me
EatinOlives
Member
(DLC spoilers)
Uh, is
Uh, is
Manus like one of those super-hard optional bosses in JRPGs? He's fucking insane, and I thought the Knight Artorias boss was shit crazy :/ Is he supposed to be doable or is just From doing one of those crazyass challenges Japanese developers like to put in sometimes? Also, is this the end of the DLC? If so, it was kinda short. Kind of anticipated 4-5 areas, not just 3, one being nearly a mirror of the lower Darkroot forest area.
Something is wrong with your game! But seriously, yeah, you should be able to warp there, demand payment for damages rendered.
Thanks for saying it way better than me
With that said though, I would really like to see From do a pure balls out hard reflex-based Souls-type game. That would be crazy. ...and so would the default keybindings for the PC version. xD
He isn't that bad, you just need to learn his tells and get used to his quirks. Every attack he does can be dodged and punished, and you can tank him with a high stability shield (moreso than Artorias imo).
More or less;
he is the Father of the Abyss, after all.
Funny enough, you still have one boss fight to go, and it's no cake walk, either. Also, there are optional fights that you can pursue with two of the NPCs (although I suspect that the window of opportunity on one of them has passed for you already) that earns you some rather nice light-build armor sets.
Funny enough, you still have one boss fight to go, and it's no cake walk, either. Also, there are optional fights that you can pursue with two of the NPCs (although I suspect that the window of opportunity on one of them has passed for you already) that earns you some rather nice light-build armor sets.
cm osi
Member
andre bonfire isn't warpable for me too. the only warpable bonfire in that zone is the sunlight altar
Red Liquorice
Member
Busta SMurk
Member
What set?
I'm near the end of the DLC, last boss. Spoilers don't bother me anymore, and I'm curious as to what set this is.
Once Artorias is defeated, Lord's Blade Ciarin will show up in the colloseum where you fought him, mourning him at a makeshift grave. She'll request his soul, and in return, you'll receive her blades. Or, you can attack her and once defeated, she'll drop her blades and her armor set. You have a limited window on this, though; once she appears, you gotta make a decision, because she'll go away for good once you reload your save.
Sir Ilpalazzo
Member
She won't leave if you don't speak to her at all.
EatinOlives
Member
OK, so I went human to summon Sif for the Manus fight and found a player sign, so I figured the more the merrier. They were basically the key to winning the fight, which I had no problem with. I kind of didn't feel like getting stuck 10 hours on one hardass boss.
After that I went ahead and finished the game. Fucking holy hell damn, that was an unbelievably amazing game. Long as hell too, I finished clocking in at a whopping 62 hours.
I played Demon's Souls a couple of years ago and it still stands to be one of the greatest games ever made in my humble opinion, and suffice to say that while Dark Souls recycles a metric shitton of its style and gameplay, it still manages to be on a league of its own right next to Demon's. These two games are undoubtedly two of the best of this entire generation, I can't think of any other game that manages to engage me as a player in the world around me and nail its mechanics so damn well. At 62 hours there was zero filler content and only very few blemishes in quality, but to me there wasn't any kind of perceptible dip. Even Lost Izalith, which I heard from many to be an outright bad level, I found great. Its architecture especially was one of the best and most detailed of the entire game. And holy fuck at the world building, it's by far the best of the entire generation. Seeing the entire world being built seamlessly and logically through the entire game, without a hint of a lazy shortcut taken, is absolutely breathtaking. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of effort and time being put into building the world, it's amazing.
Complaints, well, unfortunately I do have a few. First is the story/lore. I didn't care for it nearly as much as Demon's. It might have to do with the fact that the narrative style is nearly identical to that of Demon's, so it didn't grip me as effortlessly as the first game did, but I still think the story/lore in this game lacks a certain je ne sais quoi. I felt like the first game was more interested in telling an "immediate" story and was a bit more creative in a few key areas. For instance, I felt the lore explanation of many things, like the fog gates, parallel worlds, the way the souls worked, etc., were far more robust and better explained than in Dark. Several things I could find no explanation for at all, in fact. I felt the Nexus in Demon's to be a far, far, far better "hub" area than Firelink, even if Firelink wasn't really meant to be the Nexus strictly in every way. While I liked the characters in this game, I felt Demon's had better ones. There were no amazingly tragic bosses like Maiden of Astraea in Dark, and Demon's had FAR and away the better ending. Well, it actually had one. I don't know if I got a "bad" ending or something but mine
It absolutely paled in comparison's with Demon's, where it went so far as to
Dark had nothing like that. All in all, there was certainly a kind of "detachment" from the story/lore than Demon's Souls. I think it's the fact that 90% of Dark's story is background lore whereas Demon's actually tried to tell a narrative, and it felt a bit more creative in that sense. Dark's use of the "chosen one" trope so much was kind of shitty after Demon's did such a great job at avoiding that very archetype, for instance.
I haven't watched any of EpicNameBro's videos, so I'll just spend the next few hours jumping in on those. Maybe they'll change my mind about the story but without watching any "supplemental" videos on either story I'm willing to say Demon's was far superior.
In terms of gameplay complaints, I had very, very few, which speaks very well of the game. While the world building was amazing, individual level design took just a tiny bit of a hit between Demon's and Dark. Dark was never really "unfair", much like its predecessor, but there were definitely a few moments were it felt simply cheap. The dart blowers in Blighttown, the enemy spam of the Demon Ruins, the overuse of multiple-enemy bosses, the rare bullshit level design ideas like Anor Londo's "walk across this 2 cm walkway to jump down on a broken window in the cathedral", and the always-cheap invisible walkways of the crystal caves. The last one especially pissed me off. Invisible floors is bottom bottom-of-the-barrel level design, I think that was established way back in the N64/PS1 days. I've no idea why they thought it was a good idea here.
I do have to say I played the game on PC and mother of god, the game is breathtaking. The art style, native resolution, textures, and very good application of DoF (perfected courtesy of Durante) made for an unbelievably good looking game. It makes me wrinkle my nose when I look at Dishonored screenshots with the extremely muddy textures. The armors especially were masterful design! It absolutely doesn't "look great for a budget game", it looks amazing even in comparison to the industry in general, period.
So generally I felt the game is amazing in every way, with very few blemishes. I really, really hope that the series gets a ton more games in the future because I absolutely can't get enough of the formula.
After that I went ahead and finished the game. Fucking holy hell damn, that was an unbelievably amazing game. Long as hell too, I finished clocking in at a whopping 62 hours.
I played Demon's Souls a couple of years ago and it still stands to be one of the greatest games ever made in my humble opinion, and suffice to say that while Dark Souls recycles a metric shitton of its style and gameplay, it still manages to be on a league of its own right next to Demon's. These two games are undoubtedly two of the best of this entire generation, I can't think of any other game that manages to engage me as a player in the world around me and nail its mechanics so damn well. At 62 hours there was zero filler content and only very few blemishes in quality, but to me there wasn't any kind of perceptible dip. Even Lost Izalith, which I heard from many to be an outright bad level, I found great. Its architecture especially was one of the best and most detailed of the entire game. And holy fuck at the world building, it's by far the best of the entire generation. Seeing the entire world being built seamlessly and logically through the entire game, without a hint of a lazy shortcut taken, is absolutely breathtaking. I can't even begin to imagine the amount of effort and time being put into building the world, it's amazing.
Complaints, well, unfortunately I do have a few. First is the story/lore. I didn't care for it nearly as much as Demon's. It might have to do with the fact that the narrative style is nearly identical to that of Demon's, so it didn't grip me as effortlessly as the first game did, but I still think the story/lore in this game lacks a certain je ne sais quoi. I felt like the first game was more interested in telling an "immediate" story and was a bit more creative in a few key areas. For instance, I felt the lore explanation of many things, like the fog gates, parallel worlds, the way the souls worked, etc., were far more robust and better explained than in Dark. Several things I could find no explanation for at all, in fact. I felt the Nexus in Demon's to be a far, far, far better "hub" area than Firelink, even if Firelink wasn't really meant to be the Nexus strictly in every way. While I liked the characters in this game, I felt Demon's had better ones. There were no amazingly tragic bosses like Maiden of Astraea in Dark, and Demon's had FAR and away the better ending. Well, it actually had one. I don't know if I got a "bad" ending or something but mine
had me linking the fire, I catch on fire, explode and that's it.
introduce an entirely new game mechanic if you choose to kill the Maiden in Black at the very end of the game, not to mention the deliciously ironically easy final boss that added a very nice final touch to the game's narrative.
I haven't watched any of EpicNameBro's videos, so I'll just spend the next few hours jumping in on those. Maybe they'll change my mind about the story but without watching any "supplemental" videos on either story I'm willing to say Demon's was far superior.
In terms of gameplay complaints, I had very, very few, which speaks very well of the game. While the world building was amazing, individual level design took just a tiny bit of a hit between Demon's and Dark. Dark was never really "unfair", much like its predecessor, but there were definitely a few moments were it felt simply cheap. The dart blowers in Blighttown, the enemy spam of the Demon Ruins, the overuse of multiple-enemy bosses, the rare bullshit level design ideas like Anor Londo's "walk across this 2 cm walkway to jump down on a broken window in the cathedral", and the always-cheap invisible walkways of the crystal caves. The last one especially pissed me off. Invisible floors is bottom bottom-of-the-barrel level design, I think that was established way back in the N64/PS1 days. I've no idea why they thought it was a good idea here.
I do have to say I played the game on PC and mother of god, the game is breathtaking. The art style, native resolution, textures, and very good application of DoF (perfected courtesy of Durante) made for an unbelievably good looking game. It makes me wrinkle my nose when I look at Dishonored screenshots with the extremely muddy textures. The armors especially were masterful design! It absolutely doesn't "look great for a budget game", it looks amazing even in comparison to the industry in general, period.
So generally I felt the game is amazing in every way, with very few blemishes. I really, really hope that the series gets a ton more games in the future because I absolutely can't get enough of the formula.
Exactly. Seems to be bugged.
Actually, I want more games with the Souls slow-paced high stakes style in different settings, ages and even gameplay styles. Something like Dead Space, maybe.
EatinOlives
Member
It might be because I was playing for a very long time with the Giant Armor set, but I'd love to see a Souls-type game set in the Greek mythology era.
RockTurtle
Member
Busta SMurk
Member
My Dark Souls video highlight series continues... (Spoilers for first time players
Part 40 is up:
LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NykAT43cYw&list=PLFBBDE8FD663440DB&index=40&feature=plpp_video
And I'm uploaded part 41 overnight. It's the final boss in the DLC... Probably won't be up for a few hours. (Yay! Canadian Internet!) But when it finishes, it'll be last in the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBBDE8FD663440DB&feature=plcp
Again, it's just a highlight reel, been recording as I go along. Taking my time, and sharing the progress here. Loving this game, again!
Part 40 is up:
Dark Sun Gwyndolin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NykAT43cYw&list=PLFBBDE8FD663440DB&index=40&feature=plpp_video
And I'm uploaded part 41 overnight. It's the final boss in the DLC... Probably won't be up for a few hours. (Yay! Canadian Internet!) But when it finishes, it'll be last in the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBBDE8FD663440DB&feature=plcp
Again, it's just a highlight reel, been recording as I go along. Taking my time, and sharing the progress here. Loving this game, again!
My Dark Souls video highlight series continues... (Spoilers for first time players
Part 40 is up:LOLDark Sun Gwyndolin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NykAT43cYw
And I'm uploaded part 41 overnight. It's the final boss in the DLC... Probably won't be up for a few hours. (Yay! Canadian Internet!) But when it finishes, it'll be last in the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBBDE8FD663440DB&feature=plcp
Again, it's just a highlight reel, been recording as I go along. Taking my time, and sharing the progress here. Loving this game, again!
I like these videos, keep 'em coming.
I'm done with this game. I unlocked the main door to the boss room as a short cut, so I went to farm painting guardians for loose humanity. I finally got one, saved at the bonfire on the bottom floor, and my plan was to run up, summon Solaire, and then take on the boss. First it was a miracle I even got to the summon spot because of the stupid giant knights that aggro, and I had to fight the silver knight archer. I get past the archer, kill him, and then summon Solaire. However, the giant knights are still aggrod, so by the time Solaire is summoned, the knights are pretty much destroying him. I run to the fog gate, and Solaire is fucking fighting the knight THROUGH THE FOG GATE while O and S whiddle down his health. He finally decides not to be a dumbass, but by that time he is at half health and easily dies, and I quickly follow.
It is just not worth the effort to backtrack and grind just to beat this stupid boss. It's like From intentionally made Anor Londo the least inconvenient place to get any items while throwing the hardest boss by a multiplier of 100 in there. The game was hard but fair at first, but now it's difficulty seems comically broken, as if it carefully crafted this scenario where you would be hopeless.
It is just not worth the effort to backtrack and grind just to beat this stupid boss. It's like From intentionally made Anor Londo the least inconvenient place to get any items while throwing the hardest boss by a multiplier of 100 in there. The game was hard but fair at first, but now it's difficulty seems comically broken, as if it carefully crafted this scenario where you would be hopeless.
C'mon now. From clearly didn't craft a comically broken area, since many, many people in this thread alone have gotten past it.
If you really feel like you're 100% incapable of killing them without help, then honestly a trek to farm some humanity won't take that long, and if you can just get a couple, you can kindle the bonfire up and be on your way.
Also, I believe the giant blacksmith sells humanity, and if he doesn't then I know some vendor does.
Busta SMurk
Member
Thanks! Yeah I really enjoy making them.
Well, part 41 uploaded overnight, where I face off with DLC boss:
Manus -__-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSA_l1tcU7o&list=PLFBBDE8FD663440DB&index=41&feature=plpp_video
:faceroll: Man, this guy was tough. Soooooo many close calls on this fight, until I learned about the 'secret.' Once I learned about the
Silver Pendant
Full highlight playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFBBDE8FD663440DB&feature=plcp
H_Prestige
Banned
Farm humanity from rats. Or put down your summon sign and help people kill bosses, even O&S. They are super easy with multiple players. Solaire isn't going to help much, get two human phantoms for practically guaranteed win.
There's a bonfire close by, so its hardly a trek.
Also, if you're this frustrated with O&S to the point of calling it comically broken, then just stop playing. Seriously.
There are FAR more difficult areas coming up, and its really not worth getting your blood pressure so high that you end up hating a videogame.
So stop for now, and when you feel ready, give it another shot.
artorias the abysswalker
Member
I can't imagine they won't.....SO much greatness in regards to the Dark Souls lore...enjoy it dude!!
rogerroger22
Member
I don't think O&S are 'comically unbalanced/difficult' or whatever. If anything, I think they are a prime example of Dark Souls - a boss that requires skill to beat, and no matter how much you grind to level up, how much you grind to max out your gear - if you don't have the skills to pull off the fight (especially if trying it solo, much easier with co-op help), then they will kick your ass over, and over, and over.
I do usually resort to co-op on these two (think I've only beat them solo once). There are a few bosses in the game that become push-overs if you have over-leveled/over-geared for them, O&S don't really fit into that category.
I do usually resort to co-op on these two (think I've only beat them solo once). There are a few bosses in the game that become push-overs if you have over-leveled/over-geared for them, O&S don't really fit into that category.
Patience really pays off in this fight. You have to time your moves perfectly or O&S will punish you heavily for your mistakes.
rogerroger22
Member
Timing, Positioning and Awareness are key in that fight. You really need to keep an eye on where both guys are, and try and keep one of them between you and the other.
zephervack
Member
Why arent you fighting the huge knights in front of the fog gate before entering?
Also, this boss fight was actually really easy at least for me, I had heard so much hype before the fight that I was afraid so what I did is that I helped a couple people out in Co op, so I could see how the fight works, then I summoned the one NPC and also a human player, there is tons of signs close to the bonfire at the entrance of the church.
I had to go through all my Flasks, but I killed them in 1 go with a Zwehainder + 10 or something like that.